Political council suggests reform ideas for democracy at grassroots

[Lite Beer]

Political council suggests reform ideas for democracy at grassroots
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Political Development Council chairman Thirapat Serirangsan has revealed the council's proposals for reform - in three key areas - that were submitted to the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) yesterday.

The first seeks to lay a foundation of democracy at grassroots level, through education about politics and citizenship. It further proposes to boost public participation in politics through a citizen's council or parliament to shape national policy in ways the government is expected to embrace.

Second, it proposed strengthening the medium-sized institutions such as political parties and local administration. Political parties need to be strengthened to ensure they truly belong to the people, and local administration's power and responsibilities need to be clearly separated from the central government, the council said.

Third, it suggested that key political institutions need to be reformed, including Parliament, government, the courts and independent organisations. The reform needs to start at the start of their process, the acquisition of officials and balance of power.

On the selection of officials, the council has made four proposals. First is that the PM should come from a direct election. Second, political parties that receive the most votes for their party-list, can set up government and the party's leader becomes PM.

Third, it proposes a mixed parliamentary system of constituency MPs and party-list MPs - to have an equal number of seats in Parliament. The total number of seats allocated to a party would be determined by the proportion of votes it received via party lists.

And finally, it has proposed using the same parliamentary and electoral system but said focus should be put on strengthening the public sector to regulate the executive and legislative branch.

Thammapiban Council leader Kamonpan Cheewapansiri and five other associates submitted an open letter to PM General Prayut Chan-o-cha, calling for the government to create more opportunity for people to frame national policy, both in the long-term and short-term, and to engage the public for opinions on national mega-projects and legislative bills, in order to ensure there is no conflict of interest during the legislative process.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Political-council-suggests-reform-ideas-for-democr-30248819.html

-- The Nation 2014-11-29

[Robby nz]

Don't think this list MP's thing is a good idea for you end up with people who have no right or qualification to be in parliament, they have no loyalty to the people only to the party and would never get elected if they stood as a candidate.

No doubt there would be the argument that qualified people who would be a great benefit to the country can get an automatic entry to power without having to go through an election but in practice this has not happened.

If there are such qualified people then cabinet posts are always available that suit their expertise, as cabinet ministers and their deputies don't have to come from sitting MP's, this obviously doesn't apply to opposition parties however there is nothing to stop a shadow cabinet being formed outside parliament.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty and who were in fact useless appendages if not worse.

[Neeranam]

The lack of replies in this thread compared to the number of replies in threads like "closing massage shops" or says a lot about what expats care about in Thailand.

They know what Democracy is and have decent plans.despite what many say unknowingly here.

[fab4]

Don't think this list MP's thing is a good idea for you end up with people who have no right or qualification to be in parliament, they have no loyalty to the people only to the party and would never get elected if they stood as a candidate.

No doubt there would be the argument that qualified people who would be a great benefit to the country can get an automatic entry to power without having to go through an election but in practice this has not happened.

If there are such qualified people then cabinet posts are always available that suit their expertise, as cabinet ministers and their deputies don't have to come from sitting MP's, this obviously doesn't apply to opposition parties however there is nothing to stop a shadow cabinet being formed outside parliament.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty and who were in fact useless appendages if not worse.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty

I'll start you off shall I?

abhisit government:

Suthep Th(a)ugsuban, PAD leader Kasit Piromya as Foreign Minister, construction tycoon Chaovarat Chanweerakul as Interior Minister, and investment banker and former Abhisit classmate Korn Chatikavanij as Finance Minister. Massage parlor tycoon Pornthiva Nakasai was appointed Deputy Commerce Minister. Then of course there were the Friends of Newin contingent - 5 cabinet posts in all.

Junta 2014 Version:

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

ML Panadda Diskul

Gen Anupong Paochinda

Gen Paiboon Khumchaya

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Udomdej Sitabutr

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

Pol Gen Adul Saengsingkaew

ACM Prajin Juntong

Pol. Lt Gen Arkhom Termpittayapaisith

Gen Daopong Rattanasuwan

Gen Chatchai Sarikalya

Gen Surasak Kanchanarat

Adm Narong Pipathanasai

Lt Gen Surachet Chaiyawong

Oh, sorry, did you mean to imply only Thaksin associated governments do that sort of thing? In that case better ignore those above...........................................

[Robby nz]

Don't think this list MP's thing is a good idea for you end up with people who have no right or qualification to be in parliament, they have no loyalty to the people only to the party and would never get elected if they stood as a candidate.

No doubt there would be the argument that qualified people who would be a great benefit to the country can get an automatic entry to power without having to go through an election but in practice this has not happened.

If there are such qualified people then cabinet posts are always available that suit their expertise, as cabinet ministers and their deputies don't have to come from sitting MP's, this obviously doesn't apply to opposition parties however there is nothing to stop a shadow cabinet being formed outside parliament.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty and who were in fact useless appendages if not worse.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty

I'll start you off shall I?

abhisit government:

Suthep Th(a)ugsuban, PAD leader Kasit Piromya as Foreign Minister, construction tycoon Chaovarat Chanweerakul as Interior Minister, and investment banker and former Abhisit classmate Korn Chatikavanij as Finance Minister. Massage parlor tycoon Pornthiva Nakasai was appointed Deputy Commerce Minister. Then of course there were the Friends of Newin contingent - 5 cabinet posts in all.

Junta 2014 Version:

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

ML Panadda Diskul

Gen Anupong Paochinda

Gen Paiboon Khumchaya

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Udomdej Sitabutr

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

Pol Gen Adul Saengsingkaew

ACM Prajin Juntong

Pol. Lt Gen Arkhom Termpittayapaisith

Gen Daopong Rattanasuwan

Gen Chatchai Sarikalya

Gen Surasak Kanchanarat

Adm Narong Pipathanasai

Lt Gen Surachet Chaiyawong

Oh, sorry, did you mean to imply only Thaksin associated governments do that sort of thing? In that case better ignore those above...........................................

So you have picked on cabinet post when the topic, and my post is about list MP's.

No your the silly bugger who would ignore the PT clowns who were put there as some sort of a reward for their parts in the riots.

If you had included them then there may have been some balance to your post but that will never happen will it.

And incidentally Korn was considered by international financiers to be the best finance minister this country ever had, deserving of his place.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Robby nz

[rickirs]

"Political Development Council chairman Thirapat Serirangsan has revealed the council's proposals for reform - in three key areas - that were submitted to the National Council for Peace and Order"

These proposals are certainly debatable and perhaps not a final form that would be acceptable to the electorate. But why is the NRC submitting them to the NCPO?

Publish the proposals and the NCPO can read about them along with the public. Anyways, there are enough military in the NRC for anything significant to be ordered "leaked" to the Junta.

But the NRC being a creation of the NCPO, vis a vis the NCPO created "rubber stamp" (as characterized by The Nation) NLA, such process leaves the impression (to be politically correct) that the NCPO will ultimately decide what reforms will be chosen for the electorate. Articles 17 and 44 of the Provisionable Constitution remain in place as does martial law so let's not kid ourselves that there is any kind of democratic process occurring with reforms. The NCPO still will not commit to any public referendums on its reforms and new constitution. And that may be attributable more to fear than to confidence.

While the military is mighty, the electorate is the almighty.

[Fred Flinstone]

Quote

On the selection of officials, the council has made four proposals. First is that the PM should come from a direct election. Second, political parties that receive the most votes for their party-list, can set up government and the party's leader becomes PM.

UNQUOTE

This is key , and so long as they stick to this and allow Political Parties from all sides to run , there is not much wrong with it.

Seems too good to be true.

The initial intent sounds ok, but lets wait for the Metamorphosis to occur effectively outlawing Reds

[tomross46]

There has not been a Democracy in Thailand since the 1932 rebellion said they created democracy in Siam. There is not a true democracy in the world, Not even the USA, which uses gestapo tactics.

[jayboy]

I think these guys may be on to something with their call for democracy at the grass roots.

If I understand the proposal correctly it entails ordinary people taking control by selecting their representatives.

This would mean public participation in the broadest possible way.It would also enable the public to remove their representatives if they failed to perform.

That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait

I'll get my coat.

[jayboy]

These people need to be reminded of Tony Benn's excellent test for democracy.To be asked of all those who hold political power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

[mikemac]

I think these guys may be on to something with their call for democracy at the grass roots.

If I understand the proposal correctly it entails ordinary people taking control by selecting their representatives.

This would mean public participation in the broadest possible way.It would also enable the public to remove their representatives if they failed to perform.

That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait

I'll get my coat.

.............................."That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait"...............................

Good point jayboy, glad you brought it up. I stumbled across a Thai government website (The Government Public Relations Department) which contained an article dating back to November 2007.

It contained this quote -

"All provinces nationwide have been instructed to raise public awareness against vote buying to ensure a free and fair election."

So does that mean elections are not "free and fair" if people are being paid to vote for a particular party ? If so you can stop harping on about it because I know for a fact that the Shin parties pay people for their votes. They cannot get voted in without them, otherwise they would not be doing it, would they ?

Any party that pays for votes should be given life bans, affecting that party and every member of it, regardless what colored banner they wave.

Now get your coat.....................................

[jayboy]

I think these guys may be on to something with their call for democracy at the grass roots.

If I understand the proposal correctly it entails ordinary people taking control by selecting their representatives.

This would mean public participation in the broadest possible way.It would also enable the public to remove their representatives if they failed to perform.

That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait

I'll get my coat.

.............................."That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait"...............................

Good point jayboy, glad you brought it up. I stumbled across a Thai government website (The Government Public Relations Department) which contained an article dating back to November 2007.

It contained this quote -

"All provinces nationwide have been instructed to raise public awareness against vote buying to ensure a free and fair election."

So does that mean elections are not "free and fair" if people are being paid to vote for a particular party ? If so you can stop harping on about it because I know for a fact that the Shin parties pay people for their votes. They cannot get voted in without them, otherwise they would not be doing it, would they ?

Any party that pays for votes should be given life bans, affecting that party and every member of it, regardless what colored banner they wave.

Now get your coat.....................................

Read the literature on the subject of vote buying.It is authoritative and irrefutable confirming its presence among all parties but lack of effect.People like you invoke anecdotes from "wives" but lack the wit or energy to do basic research.Actually this subject isn't really up for debate.

[mikemac]

I think these guys may be on to something with their call for democracy at the grass roots.

If I understand the proposal correctly it entails ordinary people taking control by selecting their representatives.

This would mean public participation in the broadest possible way.It would also enable the public to remove their representatives if they failed to perform.

That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait

I'll get my coat.

.............................."That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait"...............................

Good point jayboy, glad you brought it up. I stumbled across a Thai government website (The Government Public Relations Department) which contained an article dating back to November 2007.

It contained this quote -

"All provinces nationwide have been instructed to raise public awareness against vote buying to ensure a free and fair election."

So does that mean elections are not "free and fair" if people are being paid to vote for a particular party ? If so you can stop harping on about it because I know for a fact that the Shin parties pay people for their votes. They cannot get voted in without them, otherwise they would not be doing it, would they ?

Any party that pays for votes should be given life bans, affecting that party and every member of it, regardless what colored banner they wave.

Now get your coat.....................................

Read the literature on the subject of vote buying.It is authoritative and irrefutable confirming its presence among all parties but lack of effect.People like you invoke anecdotes from "wives" but lack the wit or energy to do basic research.Actually this subject isn't really up for debate.

"but lack of effect"................That is rubbish ! If it had no effect they would not be doing it. I may not have been in Thailand as long as you but I do know one thing for sure, Thai people don't part with money if they don't have to.

This subject is not really up for debate because you are out of ammo and you know you are wrong.

And if the people at the grass roots are taught about Democracy let's hope they mention the other principles as well, or do they only have to know about elections ?

[jayboy]

I think these guys may be on to something with their call for democracy at the grass roots.

If I understand the proposal correctly it entails ordinary people taking control by selecting their representatives.

This would mean public participation in the broadest possible way.It would also enable the public to remove their representatives if they failed to perform.

That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait

I'll get my coat.

.............................."That would mean free and fair elections at regular intervals.......oh, wait"...............................

Good point jayboy, glad you brought it up. I stumbled across a Thai government website (The Government Public Relations Department) which contained an article dating back to November 2007.

It contained this quote -

"All provinces nationwide have been instructed to raise public awareness against vote buying to ensure a free and fair election."

So does that mean elections are not "free and fair" if people are being paid to vote for a particular party ? If so you can stop harping on about it because I know for a fact that the Shin parties pay people for their votes. They cannot get voted in without them, otherwise they would not be doing it, would they ?

Any party that pays for votes should be given life bans, affecting that party and every member of it, regardless what colored banner they wave.

Now get your coat.....................................

Read the literature on the subject of vote buying.It is authoritative and irrefutable confirming its presence among all parties but lack of effect.People like you invoke anecdotes from "wives" but lack the wit or energy to do basic research.Actually this subject isn't really up for debate.

"but lack of effect"................That is rubbish ! If it had no effect they would not be doing it. I may not have been in Thailand as long as you but I do know one thing for sure, Thai people don't part with money if they don't have to.

This subject is not really up for debate because you are out of ammo and you know you are wrong.

And if the people at the grass roots are taught about Democracy let's hope they mention the other principles as well, or do they only have to know about elections ?

Since you have clearly done no research at all and are profoundly ignorant on this subject , there seems little point in opening a discussion.Do some homework, be sceptical about all anecdotal evidence (whatever it seems to suggest) and apply some intelligence.Of course people like you never will.

I was probably wrong in saying the subject is not up for debate.It's quite a common belief among the urban Sino Thai middle class and the less sophisticated "expatriate" population, the latter often fairly ignorant of context/nuance.

For those who are interested, I think a good summary was by Chris Baker who speculated that money was the price to pay for being in the game but it didn't dictate defeat or victory.Khun Korn, one of the best intellects in the Democrat Party, pointed out that if a Democrat candidate ran in parts of the NE victory would never been achieved even if three times more cash was spent than Thaksin's candidate.This actually happened in the 2007 election when some TRT MPs in the NE defected to Puea Paendin.They spent three times the cash but still lost.

The much missed Changnoi wrote

" In truth the problem is not that upcountry voters don't know how to use their vote and that the result is distorted by patronage and votebuying.The problem is that they have learnt to use the vote only too well.Over several national polls they have chosen very consistently and very rationally.And of course that may be the real problem.Back when many upcountry electors sold their votes, and as a result their weight in national politics was zero, nobody cared so much about vote buying.But now the electors have got smart they have to be stopped.The bleating about vote buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working".

In these strange days we have to be careful what we say on the forum.I empathise with moderators' role and have tried to be compliant.But we do not have to put up with ignorance and lies on the subject of vote buying.As the great Clement Attlee observed to a dismal Cabinet colleague ,"A period of silence on your part would be very welcome".

[djjamie]

Don't think this list MP's thing is a good idea for you end up with people who have no right or qualification to be in parliament, they have no loyalty to the people only to the party and would never get elected if they stood as a candidate.

No doubt there would be the argument that qualified people who would be a great benefit to the country can get an automatic entry to power without having to go through an election but in practice this has not happened.

If there are such qualified people then cabinet posts are always available that suit their expertise, as cabinet ministers and their deputies don't have to come from sitting MP's, this obviously doesn't apply to opposition parties however there is nothing to stop a shadow cabinet being formed outside parliament.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty and who were in fact useless appendages if not worse.

There will be few posters on here who cant easily put names to several of those in the previous house who were only there as some sort of a reward for party loyalty

I'll start you off shall I?

abhisit government:

Suthep Th(a)ugsuban, PAD leader Kasit Piromya as Foreign Minister, construction tycoon Chaovarat Chanweerakul as Interior Minister, and investment banker and former Abhisit classmate Korn Chatikavanij as Finance Minister. Massage parlor tycoon Pornthiva Nakasai was appointed Deputy Commerce Minister. Then of course there were the Friends of Newin contingent - 5 cabinet posts in all.

Junta 2014 Version:

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

ML Panadda Diskul

Gen Anupong Paochinda

Gen Paiboon Khumchaya

Gen Prawit Wongsuwon

Gen Udomdej Sitabutr

Gen Tanasak Patimapragorn

Pol Gen Adul Saengsingkaew

ACM Prajin Juntong

Pol. Lt Gen Arkhom Termpittayapaisith

Gen Daopong Rattanasuwan

Gen Chatchai Sarikalya

Gen Surasak Kanchanarat

Adm Narong Pipathanasai

Lt Gen Surachet Chaiyawong

Oh, sorry, did you mean to imply only Thaksin associated governments do that sort of thing? In that case better ignore those above...........................................

So you have picked on cabinet post when the topic, and my post is about list MP's.

No your the silly bugger who would ignore the PT clowns who were put there as some sort of a reward for their parts in the riots.

If you had included them then there may have been some balance to your post but that will never happen will it.

And incidentally Korn was considered by international financiers to be the best finance minister this country ever had, deserving of his place.

Fab4 has made a very good point here though he will have no idea how.

Democracy is all about putting the most competent people in the right positions and keeping them there. Not having a revolving door policy of politicians filling the seat just so they can claim the benefits of an MP for the rest of their lives at tax payers expense. That is showing contempt for the tax payer. Putting someone into a position of power that has no idea is showing contempt for the voter. (yes, yes yingluck as elected!)

As you have rightly stated Korn was an expectational finance minister. He is highly qualified and he filled the role of finance minister for the whole 3 year term the Democrats were in power. Not 6 months. He was qualified for the job. Pretty impressive and one can see he would serve the people well in that position. Ahbisit and Korn together were the political version of "The Dream Team"

Fab4 also has Kasit Piromya, the foreign minister on his list. Couldn't ask for a more qualified foreign minister. He was the Thai ambassador in the Soviet Union, Mongolia and the former Soviet republics, Indonesia, PNG, German, Japan and the United States. Pretty impressive and one can see he would serve the people well in that position.

If you actually go through his list all positions are filled by "connected" yet competent people with emphasis on competent.

I think the voters and tax payers have no issues if positions are filled by friends or classmates as long as they can do the job. It happens in the west. Australia, America, England. But the key is competence and stability. Not a revolving door policy that allows as many unqualified, incompetent friends to claim the MP's pension as possible.

Look at Surapong. He is thaksins cousin in law. Wonderful. I don't care, but was he qualified to be the foreign minister? Of course not. He himself admitted he had no idea what the job entailed. He stated "I am the weakest link". Is that fair for the voters and tax payers who pay his salary? Do the tax payers not deserve the best person in the seat to serve the countries interests. You know what he did serve. thaksins interests. He got his passport back.

Look at the Labour Minister, Chalerm. Do I really need to go there? Once labour minister he spent all his time at CAPO denouncing independent entities.

And this is why Thailand needs reform ideas for democracy at the grass roots. If an apparently educated Westerner in Fab4 does not truly understand democracy then what hope do the grass roots have of understanding it.

Fab4 is still learning about democracy and that is great as long as he does not let the "red rage" blind him while on his joinery of discovery.

It is all about respect for the voters and tax payers AFTER the election. That is where democracy starts. Not ceases and that is why reform is needed.

Thanks Fab4 for highlighting this.

[mikemac]

Long post jayboy, but I finally got through it.

"Since you have clearly done no research at all and are profoundly ignorant on this subject" - If the "subject" is vote buying what is there to know ? It is illegal, immoral, and it exists.

"The bleating about vote buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working". - This Changnoi is a real comedian !

"But we do not have to put up with ignorance and lies on the subject of vote buying" - What lies ? I said it exists and you more or less agreed with me.

I believe you are arguing with yourself now.