Myanmar men to stand trial for British tourist murders on Koh Tao

[empireboy]

I fear the truth is not being heard and very very sadly, Thai Authorities have a lack-lustre reputation for upholding it!

[Johnsy]

How will you feel if they are convicted and executed based on a trial and verdict that is not deemed by qualified independent observers to be fair based on international standards?

I will let you know, if that actually happens. I don't expect that your scenario will come to pass, but it remains to be seen what the actual evidence is.

Yes, I agree it remains to be seen what the actual evidence is . . .

But for a trial to be fair, it's not just about what evidence is presented by the prosecution, but how it is presented and judged, and how the accused are allowed to defend themselves against that evidence (among other things).

This is particularly important in a case that may involve the death penalty.

Thailand is a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which includes provisions for a right to a fair trial (See Article 15), and the country is legally bound by its provisions.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20999/volume-999-I-14668-English.pdf

http://www.ccprcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/G0443072en.pdf

I assume that you will agree that Thailand must follow the provisions of this Covenant the same way you argued that Britain and Myanmar are bound by the provisions of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

The fair trial provisions of the ICCPR have been interpreted on many occasions by courts and international organizations.

Here are two reports detailing interpretations of Article 15 of the ICCPR regarding fair trials.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/POL30/002/2014/en/7aa5c5d1-921b-422e-8ca4-944db1024150/pol300022014en.pdf

https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/fair_trial.pdf

A conviction obtained in a trial that does not include the basic elements of fairness cannot be relied upon to have convicted the guilty party and could easily result in an innocent person going to jail or being executed (and the real killers remaining free to kill again) . . . that is why these provisions exist.

I think/hope that many qualified independent observers will be closely watching the trial of the B2 and using the ICCPR and its interpretations as a scorecard to determine if the trial was fair.

I hope this for the sake of Hannah and David's family and justice, but also for Thailand and the Thai people who I care about very much and who deserve these standards to be followed in all cases.

Thailand is currently under martial law, constitutional law does not exist!

[tonypace02]

Case Summary: Police and reporters freely roaming a crime scene; evidence moved and removed without being recorded; questionable DNA evidence; confession recanted when lawyers get involved; FBI, Scotland Yard, and other outside agency assistance given but ineffective; poorly trained local investigators with little homicide experience; several false leads... what a mess. After 18 years, I am beginning to doubt the killers of Jon Benet Ramsey of Colorado or Suzie Lamplugh of London after 28 years will ever be caught. Of course, if the Myanamar duo are convicted in court, perhaps the Thai police will be kind enough to send their investigators to Boulder or to Fulham to lend a hand.

[Chris Lawrence]

'Alarmed by the initial handling of the probe -- which saw reporters allowed to trample all over the crime scene among a slew of apparent bungles -- a team of British detectives visited Thailand in November to review the investigation.'

Dam reporters?

[Jockey]

i see a scotish kid has had to go into hiding for posting on facebook that he new who did it,

he was told he was going to die,,

its in the scotish record

Scottish man goes into hiding on Thai island after claiming he knows who killed backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scot-goes-hiding-thai-island-4302708

[Bleacher Bum East]

How will you feel if they are convicted and executed based on a trial and verdict that is not deemed by qualified independent observers to be fair based on international standards?

I will let you know, if that actually happens. I don't expect that your scenario will come to pass, but it remains to be seen what the actual evidence is.

Yes, I agree it remains to be seen what the actual evidence is . . .

But for a trial to be fair, it's not just about what evidence is presented by the prosecution, but how it is presented and judged, and how the accused are allowed to defend themselves against that evidence (among other things).

This is particularly important in a case that may involve the death penalty.

Thailand is a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which includes provisions for a right to a fair trial (See Article 15), and the country is legally bound by its provisions.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20999/volume-999-I-14668-English.pdf

http://www.ccprcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/G0443072en.pdf

I assume that you will agree that Thailand must follow the provisions of this Covenant the same way you argued that Britain and Myanmar are bound by the provisions of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

The fair trial provisions of the ICCPR have been interpreted on many occasions by courts and international organizations.

Here are two reports detailing interpretations of Article 15 of the ICCPR regarding fair trials.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/POL30/002/2014/en/7aa5c5d1-921b-422e-8ca4-944db1024150/pol300022014en.pdf

https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/fair_trial.pdf

A conviction obtained in a trial that does not include the basic elements of fairness cannot be relied upon to have convicted the guilty party and could easily result in an innocent person going to jail or being executed (and the real killers remaining free to kill again) . . . that is why these provisions exist.

I think/hope that many qualified independent observers will be closely watching the trial of the B2 and using the ICCPR and its interpretations as a scorecard to determine if the trial was fair.

I hope this for the sake of Hannah and David's family and justice, but also for Thailand and the Thai people who I care about very much and who deserve these standards to be followed in all cases.

Thailand is currently under martial law, constitutional law does not exist!

Sorry but you're way of base.

Yes, the 2007 Constitution has been suspended.

But the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is not a provision of the Thai Constitution or fall under Thai Constitutional Law.

It is an international agreement to which the country of Thailand is a party.

The military government has not suspended or terminated the country's international treaties, covenants or agreements. They are still in force.

But thanks for giving me a chance to correct a mistake I made ---

The fair trial provisions of the ICCPR are contained in Article 14 (not Article 15 like I said in my post).

Edited December 4, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[Jockey]

Scottish man goes into hiding on Thai island after claiming he knows who killed backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scot-goes-hiding-thai-island-4302708

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok. Both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Man says police beat him after he declined to be witness in Koh Tao murder case http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/4373

Says it all really

[Anthony5]

The police didn't find Davids phone in different places, it were the conspiracy theorists on here and other social media that twisted and turned all the news that came out to make it look as if it was so.

That later all of it was explained they conveniently haven't read of course.

So you are another one that thinks only his opinion counts on this forum?

Were you involved in the direct investigation of the case?

Are you a close family member of the victims?

Can you show where the explanation was about the phones ? as I am unable to find it .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766270-police-clarify-koh-tao-victims-cellphone-planting/?p=8494887

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766048-police-address-criticisms-over-koh-tao-arrest-of-myanmar-suspects/?p=8491314

If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask them, and I will jump to your commands, in the mean time you can further relax in your armchair thinking up some more conspiracy theories.

[StealthEnergiser]

The police didn't find Davids phone in different places, it were the conspiracy theorists on here and other social media that twisted and turned all the news that came out to make it look as if it was so.

That later all of it was explained they conveniently haven't read of course.

So you are another one that thinks only his opinion counts on this forum?

Were you involved in the direct investigation of the case?

Are you a close family member of the victims?

Can you show where the explanation was about the phones ? as I am unable to find it .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766270-police-clarify-koh-tao-victims-cellphone-planting/?p=8494887

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766048-police-address-criticisms-over-koh-tao-arrest-of-myanmar-suspects/?p=8491314

If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask them, and I will jump to your commands, in the mean time you can further relax in your armchair thinking up some more conspiracy theories.

that still doesn't explain the smashed up phoneI agree that they have corrected the info about Hannahs phone but they showed pictures of david's phone with no damage and they also said they found a smashed up phone please explain that.

[Anthony5]

The police didn't find Davids phone in different places, it were the conspiracy theorists on here and other social media that twisted and turned all the news that came out to make it look as if it was so.

That later all of it was explained they conveniently haven't read of course.

So you are another one that thinks only his opinion counts on this forum?

Were you involved in the direct investigation of the case?

Are you a close family member of the victims?

Can you show where the explanation was about the phones ? as I am unable to find it .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766270-police-clarify-koh-tao-victims-cellphone-planting/?p=8494887

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766048-police-address-criticisms-over-koh-tao-arrest-of-myanmar-suspects/?p=8491314

If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask them, and I will jump to your commands, in the mean time you can further relax in your armchair thinking up some more conspiracy theories.

that still doesn't explain the smashed up phoneI agree that they have corrected the info about Hannahs phone but they showed pictures of david's phone with no damage and they also said they found a smashed up phone please explain that.

I was actually joking when I said i would jump to your commands, do your homework yourself, it is in the links i provided.

There are also reports on this forum, and several other NEWS sources, that David had 2 phones.

[Mooner]

The police didn't find Davids phone in different places, it were the conspiracy theorists on here and other social media that twisted and turned all the news that came out to make it look as if it was so.

That later all of it was explained they conveniently haven't read of course.

So you are another one that thinks only his opinion counts on this forum?

Were you involved in the direct investigation of the case?

Are you a close family member of the victims?

Can you show where the explanation was about the phones ? as I am unable to find it .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766270-police-clarify-koh-tao-victims-cellphone-planting/?p=8494887

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766048-police-address-criticisms-over-koh-tao-arrest-of-myanmar-suspects/?p=8491314

If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask them, and I will jump to your commands, in the mean time you can further relax in your armchair thinking up some more conspiracy theories.

that still doesn't explain the smashed up phoneI agree that they have corrected the info about Hannahs phone but they showed pictures of david's phone with no damage and they also said they found a smashed up phone please explain that.

Hannah's phone was pink in a black casing. David had a black IPhone. He also had a Samsung which was his phone he used in Thailand.

His phone that was smashed was his IPhone so how is it apparently with the Police in that photo?

[siampolee]

StealthEnergiser post # 74

that still doesn't explain the smashed up phoneI agree that they have corrected the info about Hannahs phone but they showed pictures of david's phone with no damage and they also said they found a smashed up phone please explain that.

The explanation is, ''Liars need good memories.''

[StealthEnergiser]

That is where the problem is Anthony5 does not understand and i have not seen any news where the police can explain how they had 2 iPhones one smashed and 1 in good order as I said earlier the phones including the smashed one should have been forensically examined to find the true owners and if he also owned a samsung where is that.

[Anthony5]

I'm right now in the process of writing a letter to the Royal Thai Police that requests that each and every poster in the Koh Tao related threads are personally updated about all forensic examinations that have been performed with the given results, and of course enough evidence to proof that the results are genuine.

I hope all of you can hold on to it a little longer, it shouldn't take a long time before you all receive the forensic reports in your mail box.

[thailandchilli]

New article 4th Dec http://asiancorrespo...formal-charges/

“It’s really challenging getting witnesses for them because everyone’s so scared,” Hall said. He said that Thais living on Koh Tao are especially scared to speak out, because they have names and addresses that can be easily tracked. This is their home, they can’t leave the way migrant workers or Western expats can. People are scared that their businesses will be closed or their lives will be threatened, even that they could be killed, Hall said.

No chance for the B2. Shame on Thailand

[Rykbanlor]

This is just exhausting.

That one link to the PBS ( http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run ) says it all. They know who did it, they were ready to arrest, and then suddenly it all went away.

Your boys like Ant'5 or JD in asia will claim that this was because the bungling RTP just followed another dud lead like they did with The Earlier finger pointing at The English friend of David's.

But they never said they had enough evidence to prosecute the earlier suspects - just called them prime suspects or persons of interest.

Just go and read that PBS article again. They had them, but something, most likely financial, happened to stop it going ahead. Panya was not a local Copper and he was getting his men.

If anyone thinks this is a ridiculous conspiracy, then they obviously don't know very much about Thailand. I suppose they won't believe all the other news stories and factual events that happen in Thailand daily.

Yes, thats right folks, the Police are actually just misunderstood. <Money does not walk or talk in Thailand>

[sweatalot]

The trouble with this subject is that suddenly thousands of armchair detectives suddenly think they know who the killer is from behind their computer screens.

Given the amount of interest in this case I expect that justice may be served by a proper trial.

It would be too embarrassing for the authorities NOT to proceed to trial at this stage, so it's no surprises yet.

Your trouble is you do not understand that - while there might be some armchair detectives - there are many sincere people who have observed the police actions and inactions from the beginning and not being stupid understand very well that the police actions were far from being just or correct.

So they see it as their duty to help the case being properly handled as otherwise it might lead to a fatal mistake in justice leading to have cruel murderers walking free and scapegoats losing their lives. I believe nobody will want the B2 being free if (and only if) their guilt will be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[dzodun]

My armchair theory, actually I thought of it while lying in bed last night , is that the prosecution, et al, will try to conduct

the trial in the next three weeks while many Westerners will be occupied with the Christmas season so they will not be

tuned in to what goes on here in the Kingdom. Most likely even Western media will be less attentive than in the past. By

the time the new year gets underway the B2 boys will be history as far as the trial goes.

I really hope I am wrong, for the sake of these guys and their families, and also for the sake of Thailand's future

credibility before the world. The truth will come out eventually. It would be better that it surfaced now.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Isn't this David's phone?

You obviously pulled this photo from somewhere -- why not provide the link if it is credible to see what is being described in the picture ... rather than trying to perpetuate another baseless and illogical conspiracy theory about a phone that is based on the police showing a phone to the press early in the investigation and then taking that same phone later and showing it to the press and say they just found it at the suspects home after a witness stated they broke and threw it after being given it by one of the suspects because they couldn't unlock it and was related to the crime.

Edited December 4, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[T_Dog]

This is just exhausting.

That one link to the PBS ( http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run ) says it all. They know who did it, they were ready to arrest, and then suddenly it all went away.

Your boys like Ant'5 or JD in asia will claim that this was because the bungling RTP just followed another dud lead like they did with The Earlier finger pointing at The English friend of David's.

But they never said they had enough evidence to prosecute the earlier suspects - just called them prime suspects or persons of interest.

Just go and read that PBS article again. They had them, but something, most likely financial, happened to stop it going ahead. Panya was not a local Copper and he was getting his men.

If anyone thinks this is a ridiculous conspiracy, then they obviously don't know very much about Thailand. I suppose they won't believe all the other news stories and factual events that happen in Thailand daily.

Yes, thats right folks, the Police are actually just misunderstood. <Money does not walk or talk in Thailand>

Quotes from the investigator in charge at that point from that article:

"He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today."

Yet after that, the same suspect was able to cruise around the crime scene with the police after the two Burmese boys were implicated. Shameful.

[smotherb]

AFP almost managed to get through a report without having a dig, but not quite.

So now, presumably, the defense lawyers will have to be given a full copy of all the evidence against the two Burmese and will be able to put together a defense based on what is both in, and isn't in, the police files.

As the Burmese Govt and HRW are reported to be cooperating in a defense one would expect experienced competent lawyers who will be questioning everything.

Then there is the yet to be released Scotland Yard report, interesting times ahead.

Yes, the Scotland Yard report. Whatever happened to those trusty detectives who were going to sort everything out? Well, at least they haven't made broad swiping statements of theory at frequent photo ops--that seems a plus to Thai police.

[Anthony5]

AFP almost managed to get through a report without having a dig, but not quite.

So now, presumably, the defense lawyers will have to be given a full copy of all the evidence against the two Burmese and will be able to put together a defense based on what is both in, and isn't in, the police files.

As the Burmese Govt and HRW are reported to be cooperating in a defense one would expect experienced competent lawyers who will be questioning everything.

Then there is the yet to be released Scotland Yard report, interesting times ahead.

Yes, the Scotland Yard report. Whatever happened to those trusty detectives who were going to sort everything out? Well, at least they haven't made broad swiping statements of theory at frequent photo ops--that seems a plus to Thai police.

Maybe they also didn't discover anything worth to make swiping statements ?

[JohnThailandJohn]

BANGKOK: -- Thai prosecutors on Wednesday said two Myanmar men will stand trial for the brutal killing of a pair of British holidaymakers on a tourist resort after finally accepting murder charges against them.

The headline from the article reads as if the B2 have now changed their minds again as it says 'finally accepting murder charges against them'.

Is anyone else reading it like this? Or is a mistake in the translation to English? I hope it's the latter.

And then this sentence:

'Thai authorities have strongly denied using the pair as scapegoats, insisting their case is built on solid evidence showing the DNA of the accused from initial tests matches samples taken from Witheridge's body'.

I thought they were cleared at the initial tests by the RTP and arrested after the second round?

Or does the article maybe mean that further tests done by other organisations do not match?

Never was their DNA tested prior to it coming back as a match. As explained numerous times as well as reported in the press, the police collected hundreds of samples and caused a huge backlog in testing at the labs. As they focused on particular suspects they would make checking theirs a priority and jump ahead in the queue. NEVER EVER has it been suggested or reported that a test was run that showed their DNA didn't match. And best I have seen there has been no explanation from the defense side as to why their semen would be in one of the victims or an accusation the DNA match was made up. As for contamination at the scene -- it cannot explain why their semen would be in one of the victims regardless of how many reporters or others were at the crime scene. "Contamination" would have to be a purposeful act of somebody having their semen and placing it in the victim early on in the first day of the investigation .. if the police did such a thing then they would not have gone out of their way to publicly accuse, and then have to admit being wrong about, those they accused early on including the farang friend and the son of the headsman.

[petercool]

A post removed for flaming and being in all caps

[Willy Eckerslike]

Any News from Samui?

[StealthEnergiser]

I'm right now in the process of writing a letter to the Royal Thai Police that requests that each and every poster in the Koh Tao related threads are personally updated about all forensic examinations that have been performed with the given results, and of course enough evidence to proof that the results are genuine.

I hope all of you can hold on to it a little longer, it shouldn't take a long time before you all receive the forensic reports in your mail box.

You said all the information about phones has been answered I was just asking for clarification which you have been unable to show why the police say they have 2 iPhones belonging to David when apparently he never had 2 iPhones.

[Mooner]

I'm right now in the process of writing a letter to the Royal Thai Police that requests that each and every poster in the Koh Tao related threads are personally updated about all forensic examinations that have been performed with the given results, and of course enough evidence to proof that the results are genuine.

I hope all of you can hold on to it a little longer, it shouldn't take a long time before you all receive the forensic reports in your mail box.

Not needed thanks! Just consistency in their reports would be enough!

[Anthony5]

I'm right now in the process of writing a letter to the Royal Thai Police that requests that each and every poster in the Koh Tao related threads are personally updated about all forensic examinations that have been performed with the given results, and of course enough evidence to proof that the results are genuine.

I hope all of you can hold on to it a little longer, it shouldn't take a long time before you all receive the forensic reports in your mail box.

You said all the information about phones has been answered I was just asking for clarification which you have been unable to show why the police say they have 2 iPhones belonging to David when apparently he never had 2 iPhones.

You must have missed my comment where I said do your own homework, as it has been clearly announced that David had 2 phones. Did I say 2 Iphones?

[Robby nz]

AFP almost managed to get through a report without having a dig, but not quite.

So now, presumably, the defense lawyers will have to be given a full copy of all the evidence against the two Burmese and will be able to put together a defense based on what is both in, and isn't in, the police files.

As the Burmese Govt and HRW are reported to be cooperating in a defense one would expect experienced competent lawyers who will be questioning everything.

Then there is the yet to be released Scotland Yard report, interesting times ahead.

The Junta has disbanded HRW and blocked thier website because they were interfering and finding faults. That's one obstacle in the way of the prosecution removed.

If that is the case why are the police still talking to them ?

BANGKOK: -- POLICE HAVE not used any violence against two Myanmar nationals detained over the murders of two British tourists on Koh Tao, a senior police officer told a subcommittee of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) yesterday.

[JohnThailandJohn]

This is just exhausting.

That one link to the PBS ( http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run ) says it all. They know who did it, they were ready to arrest, and then suddenly it all went away.

Your boys like Ant'5 or JD in asia will claim that this was because the bungling RTP just followed another dud lead like they did with The Earlier finger pointing at The English friend of David's.

But they never said they had enough evidence to prosecute the earlier suspects - just called them prime suspects or persons of interest.

Just go and read that PBS article again. They had them, but something, most likely financial, happened to stop it going ahead. Panya was not a local Copper and he was getting his men.

If anyone thinks this is a ridiculous conspiracy, then they obviously don't know very much about Thailand. I suppose they won't believe all the other news stories and factual events that happen in Thailand daily.

Yes, thats right folks, the Police are actually just misunderstood. <Money does not walk or talk in Thailand>

Quotes from the investigator in charge at that point from that article:

"He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today."

Yet after that, the same suspect was able to cruise around the crime scene with the police after the two Burmese boys were implicated. Shameful.

Do you often take early reported news sources of stories and then ignore further reported developments while adding in unfounded rumor or is it just helpful in the case since facts aren't adding up to what so many want to believe - It is 100% normal for police to have bad information and go through numerous suspects before solving a crime -- the difference in this case is that Thai police were making statements about the investigation and this information before verifying or fully investigating these suspects and tips -- then later when they would provide updates, people couldn't grasp this or purposely ignored it the updated --- why not go back to the evidence about the Farang friend the police first accussed with the cut the next day and bloody pants in his luggage and pretend he did it? Would be just as easy to ignore the cut turned out to be unrelated and the blood on the pants turned out not to be blood.

One thing for sure in this case, the police have not been shy about backing off of people the publicly accused as the evidence showed they were not involved including other immigrant workers, the farang friend and the headman's son