Israelis In Chiang Mai

[Gonzo the Face]

I remember seeing, a number of years ago, signs on several business establishments, "No Israeli's"

It bothered me somewhat back then, to think that there was such blatant discrimination in Chiang Mai. One of the business' was a guest house, that shall remain unnamed. The owner, a Thai, spoke excellent English, well as good spoken English as one could learn from living in Australia for about 7 years. I asked this person "Why the dislike of Jewish people?

He replied "not Jewish people, but Israeli's". He went on to explain his dislike of Israeli's and why, which I took with a grain of salt.

I used to get around CM a lot more in those days. In my travels, I began to see more similar signs directed at the Israeli's.

I had completely forgotten about those happenings until just this week. In two more instances, I say similar signs, "No Israeli's"

Has this local feeling towards Israeli's always been here, [for the past 10 or more years] or did I just not see these signs? Or is the current Middle East situation bring about a reemergence of this dislike of Israeli's?

I was beginning to think it was only the American's who "weren't the flavor of the month"

[Pond Life]

It seems to me that attitude of the "average" Israeli towards other people, clashes head on with the attitude of the "average" Thai towards others.

This is unfortunate for the small minority of Israeli's who are nice people.

[Ulysses G.]

I sit in a retail shop every day dealing with tourists and despite all the hatred I hear toward Germans, Americans, Brits and Israelis, the vast majority of ALL of them are nice people and no nationality stands out as being any worse than any other.

If you have to look down on and hate other people to bear yourself maybe it isn't their problem.

[mallmagician]

I have met a lot of nice israelies, but have met a lot of israelies whose apparant attitude grated with others. Not sure if its a culture thing, but they can appear to be very rude and arrogant.

Just to play Devils Advocate, may I point out that there are a couple of "Israeli" guesthouses in Thailand, that are for Israelies only! So maybe its a Karma thing!

Israelies seem to enjoy each others company a lot from what I have observed, which can also come off as being unfriendly, but again is probably a culture thing.

I like them! Variety is the spice of life!

Phil

[lannarebirth]

Some close friends of mine are Lao and own a guesthouse in Luang Phrabang. They charge the equivalent of about 60 baht per night to stay there and often they only have 1-2 guests; pretty much they are living strictly hand to mouth. Outside the front door on the porch is a sign that says "No Israelis". I asked them why, being as how they sure coudn't afford to be turning away any business. Basically, the way it translated was that "they try to steal your dignity". Seems they use the 60 baht as a starting point for the haggling over price with no regard for where they are, how little that really is, and whether or not it will fill the proprietors rice bowl.

[vultureintree]

I am not Israeli but if I ever came across such a stupid an ignorant person, they can be assured that they would never see the colour of my money!!

[Gonzo the Face]

I am not Israeli but if I ever came across such a stupid an ignorant person, they can be assured that they would never see the colour of my money!!

V-Tree Is it the Laotian GH Owner you are regarding as stupid and Ignorant. or the Israeli..?

Are you now or have you lived a reasonable amount of time in Asia?

You know it hasn't been too long ago, and maybe still in some areas today, where people did not want you to take their photo, as they thought it captured their spirit...

To the Western mindset that would or could appear stupid and ignorant, but it was their belief. If we do not understand or agree with their ways and/or cultures, does that not make us 'ignorant' in their eyes....

Just a question...

[Pond Life]

Perhaps the "No Israeli's" signs are actualy meant as advertisments to encourage other nationalities to come & stay ?

[lannarebirth]

Here's what I came up with, thinking it out on my own. Israelis are far from the only cheapskate travellers out there. To many "backpackers", it is a point of honor to see how much they can haggle a price down. Despite the fact their hosts know how much they payed to get there, that many are sporting $200 backpacks and lug laptops around with them, spend more on one beer (consuming several more daily) than the cost of their accomodations.

Hey, I don't care if they ant to eat only white rice and green mangoes all day to save a buck, but for crissakes have a little consideration for your hosts, assuming they aren't trying to gouge you.

That said, maybe the "Israeli" sign is just a heads up to not be too much of a skinflint, I don't know. I do know, that the people I know who didn't want their money, could have sure used it. I assume their reasos are valid if a broad generalization.

[Thaiquila]

Maybe they are Thai Muslims. The whole country of Malaysia hangs out a "No Israelis" sign; how fair is that? I think I will open a guesthouse and say "No Arabs" how about that?

Or how about "No Swiss." How does that make you feel?

Edited August 11, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Pond Life]

Thaiquila,

I disagree,

A sign saying "No Israeli's" is not the same as one saying "No Jews".

Suggesting that people that have "No Isreali" signs are Muslim is to turn this into a religious question.

There are plenty of Arabs in Israel. If they come to Thailand & act in a loud, rude & agressive way they will be equaly unwelcome irespective of religion.

[Thaiquila]

Thaiquila,

I disagree,

A sign saying "No Israeli's" is not the same as one saying "No Jews".

Suggesting that people that have "No Isreali" signs are Muslim is to turn this into a religious question.

There are plenty of Arabs in Israel. If they come to Thailand & act in a loud, rude & agressive way they will be equaly unwelcome irespective of religion.

I am sorry, but this is a religious and also a racial issue.

Aren't over 90 percent of Israelis Jewish? Malaysia in effect also bans Arab Israelis. Any tolerance whatsoever for these "No Israeli" signs is despicable.

Again, imagine how rude and offensive:

"No French"

"No Mexicans"

"No Africans"

You get the picture. Why the tolerance for "No Israelis?"

Edited August 11, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Pond Life]

Thaiquila,

Again I disagree, these signs are not descriminating against people because of their religion but because of thier behavior.

I do agree that these signs are wrong, but they are a reflection of how fed up Thai people are of the behavior of a particular group.

[Thaiquila]

Thaiquila,

Again I disagree, these signs are not descriminating against people because of their religion but because of thier behavior.

I do agree that these signs are wrong, but they are a reflection of how fed up Thai people are of the behavior of a particular group.

How would you specifically KNOW what the specific motivation is of a specific guest house owner?

To me, it sounds suspiciously to me of racial stereotyping. Often the worse bigots have no experience at all of the groups they hate.

And, again, you are mistaken. If you are banning Israelis, and 90 percent of Israelis are Jewish, you are banning Jews. What is it about the term "Jewish state" that you don't understand?

Again, where does this tolerance for these signs come from?

Edited August 11, 2006 by Thaiquila

[sbk]

Thaiquila,

Again I disagree, these signs are not descriminating against people because of their religion but because of thier behavior.

I do agree that these signs are wrong, but they are a reflection of how fed up Thai people are of the behavior of a particular group.

I think bringing religion into it is not really valid since most Thai people don't share the same prejudices towards Jewish people that exist in the West. There has never been a strong Jewish presence in SE Asia so, frankly, I think Thaiquila is wrong. There are other prejudices in Asia, but I sincerely doubt being Jewish has anything to do with it. In fact, most of the Thais I know in the tourist business here don't even realize that there is a difference between being Israeli and being Jewish.

Large groups of any nationality (and I am talking 15-20 people) tend to overwhelm a small place, leaving others "out". I have met many really nice Israeli people. Any large group of young people who all share a common background (and most likely friendship from home) can be really obnoxious.

Most of the Israelis that come to Thailand are straight out of the army and travel in large groups, giving them an insular and exclusive air. Most young men straight out of the military have one thing in mind: the sole pursuit of their own pleasure. So, throw this into the mix and what do you get?

Obnoxiousness. I've met large groups from many countries and most of them have been pretty obnoxious. Except for some really terrific Finnish guys we had stay here. Great guys, terrific manners ---- made me think Finland must be a good place to visit But they were a rare bunch.

[Thaiquila]

In fact, most of the Thais I know in the tourist business here don't even realize that there is a difference between being Israeli and being Jewish.

???

Sound like you are backing my point.

I like Thais too, and I understand trying to see it from their perspective, but this kind of sign is beyond the pale.

How about I put up another sign:

NO KURDISTANIS

Nothing to do with KURDS. Kurds are welcome, just not Kurdistanis!

Same difference with Israelis.

If you don't believe me, how many American, French, or Argentinian Jews do you think you will find at the NO ISRAELI guesthouse?

As far as bringing religion into it, I didn't, the people who put up the signs did. Being Jewish is more than about a religion. The Jews are a "people" and most Israelis aren't very religious to begin with. But they are mostly Jewish people.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Pond Life]

Now, you did just ask an interesting question, are Jewish people from countries other than Israel put off when they see a sign saying "No Israeli's".

I will have to ask some of my Jewish friends.

But that will have to wait until I escape from the Arab State that I'm presently stuck in.

I dont know if they have any signs up here but I would be suprised if an Israeli pasport would be well recieved at Immigration.

[kayo]

It seems to me that attitude of the "average" Israeli towards other people, clashes head on with the attitude of the "average" Thai towards others.

This is unfortunate for the small minority of Israeli's who are nice people.

This is well stated.

My two baht, if I were to be concise would run to a fairly hefty bill by the time I got done.

I´m an ex guest house manager in LOS, and also helped out in a myriad of bars and friend´s guest houses.

It is not a pleasant thing to have on your establishment: A sign banning a certain people because of their race, naitonality, creed, whatever...

It is NOT pleasant. The small minority of well behaved and educated (read, wordly) Israeli´s would ALWAYS be welcome in any establishment I run.

They would most likely also know to ignore the sign that I WOULD put up if I were to run aanother guest house in a "heavy israeli tourist" destination and walk in and ask about availability, cos they generally know, and not too many years ago, they were the arrogant, loud mouhted, disrespectful, stingy, short changing, discount seeking "just out the army" types who´ve been brainwashed into thinking they are better than any other race, even the quitest khmer thai´s who were my saintly workers and the best crew I´ve ever worked with. I mean, who gives some 20 year old just out of gaza the right to think of my carpenter as some monket scum.....

Bless the young israeli who asked me once if she could get a discount on a ten baht pancake, if we held back the milk and eggs.....

[Charma]

This debate seems to lack a bit of clarity. Is the discussion about race, religion or politics?

Posts seem to be a mix of all three. Stereotypes about the traits of Israelis (perhaps a little too close to the old stereotypes attributed to the thriftyness of Jews), discussions on the religious make up and identity of Israel and a little about the current political climate.

The OP seems to suggest that the motivation for the signs is based on an attributation of unwelcome personality traits. If this is the case, then many people would quite rightly find this offensive. In fact many posters seem happy using the term "the small minority of Iraelis are nice people". On what basis would this statement ever be considered reasonable?

I have met quite a few Thais, mainly in Bangkok that have held quite strong views about the political situation in respect of percieved US and UK imperialism. I also read a thread a while back about a Thai Samui hotelier who banned US nationals from his hotel because of US actions in the Middle East. Events in Lebanon may also attract condemnation from Thais. This form of prejudice is perhaps more understandable as it is borne out of anger regarding a particular foreign policy. It does not make it any fairer on the individuals affected though, particularly as they may be just as opposed to their countries foreign policy as the hotelier.

I think Thais generally (as in sweeping generalisation) are much more frank and up front about their prejudices, where as many in the west have learned to disguise them in response to a culture of "diversity" and acceptance (I will avoid the term political correctness).

[khall64au]

Must concur with Kayo ... is usually the young, arrogant, penny-pinching Israeli's fresh out of the army who give all Israeli travellers a bad name.

There are "No Israeli's" signs all over India. They are not well liked there AT ALL.

I've met many lovely Israeli people but also some real shiteheads too... like the guy I invited to stay at my house in Oz for a few days and - 3 wks weeks later- with no intention of moving on, I had to ask him 3 times to find another hacienda. He'd saved a bundle in accommodation but did he buy me a beer? NO!!!

[lannarebirth]

This debate seems to lack a bit of clarity. Is the discussion about race, religion or politics?

Near as I can tell the discussion is about culture and manners. I don't really think most Thais care very much about international politics. I do think they care about being disrespected, put out and struggling to get payed the market value of their product or service. Just guessing, but I'd guess Israelis are perceived as having no "kreng jai".

[opothai]

This debate seems to lack a bit of clarity. Is the discussion about race, religion or politics?

Near as I can tell the discussion is about culture and manners. I don't really think most Thais care very much about international politics. I do think they care about being disrespected, put out and struggling to get payed the market value of their product or service. Just guessing, but I'd guess Israelis are perceived as having no "kreng jai".

i think you sum it up well

the thais do not like confrontation the sign save embarrasment all round

i could think of a few signs we could post before entering the usa europe and england, but of course we cannot post signs we must smile accept and be hypocritical

[Charma]

This debate seems to lack a bit of clarity. Is the discussion about race, religion or politics?

Near as I can tell the discussion is about culture and manners. I don't really think most Thais care very much about international politics. I do think they care about being disrespected, put out and struggling to get payed the market value of their product or service. Just guessing, but I'd guess Israelis are perceived as having no "kreng jai".

So if we are sticking to the term Israeli, then we are talking about nationality then. I recently bought some paintings from a small group of Israeli artists. They were young guys, recently out of military service who were travelling around Europe seeling paintings. They were very talented and very polite and open individuals. However, I would not want to apply their personal characteristics to a whole nation of people.

People will always hold prejudices and to some extend, generalisations are a natural part of life. However, when such prejudice is expressed in the form of open, blatant discrimination and passively or actively supported by onlookers who share the sentiments...... well we all know where that can lead.

[Thaiquila]

If there is a BEHAVIOR that is prohibited in a guesthouse, how about posting rules against that BEHAVIOR, instead of insulting an entire nation and also all the world's Jews. Surely, Israelis are not the only nationality to exhibit the "undesirable" behavior these owners are trying to avoid, whatever that behavior might be.

[kayo]

This debate seems to lack a bit of clarity. Is the discussion about race, religion or politics?

I think the inital question in above quotes, is an inaccurate one. It is not about race, nor religion, nor politics.

It´s about a certain type of quasi brainwashing that goes one, which some of the less independant youth are subject too.

Most on this forum know exactly to the type I refer. And most Agree.

The thing is, THIS TOPIC is not about where they are from, what they believe in, or anything like that.

It is about the behaviour of some. AND I MUST ADD, that it is not the natural behaviour of these youths. It is the behaviour (outlook?) that is engrained upon them for three years. There ARE exceptions, but the few individual minded are far and few between. I again emphasise the reference to the younger whippersnappers just out of the army.

Again, I repeat, most of the more mature Israeli travelers have no prob with these signs, and some even welcome them, because they will be welcome, and not subject to the quasi-expectation of attending to the younger arrogant (yes, general.) ones.

Near as I can tell the discussion is about culture and manners. I don't really think most Thais care very much about international politics. I do think they care about being disrespected, put out and struggling to get payed the market value of their product or service. Just guessing, but I'd guess Israelis are perceived as having no "kreng jai".

Lannarebirth (quoted here) said it best. It´s not about politics. It´s about behaving well in a country where you are a guest. Most foreigners, FROM any nation, IN another nation behave poorly. But there is a general trend that is being talked about here, that is more extreme than any other nation, and it´s specific to the group ascribed as "young just out of the army".

C´mon, Thailand is one of the top ten cheapest country on the lonely planet circuit, and they still want money off... There are basically often asking for me or you to pay the way for them. And not from a point of view of helping them. Just giving. Cos tomorrow you can bet he´ll be able to buy the fanciest (loudest) ghettoblaster to stick in his oversized backpack to blast off his jack Johnson on a quiet beach somewhere.

I will not do subsidize somebody who has money but doesn´t want to spend it. Especially as I live off tips.

.

If there is a BEHAVIOR that is prohibited in a guesthouse, how about posting rules against that BEHAVIOR, instead of insulting an entire nation and also all the world's Jews. Surely, Israelis are not the only nationality to exhibit the "undesirable" behavior these owners are trying to avoid, whatever that behavior might be.

Doesn´t work. Purely because the kids will seek out anything that is specifically NOT mentioned and try to abuse that. Which would entail a rule book of three thousand points (all the things NOT to do.)

Now, trying to revert to some constructivism...

I have found, that with this particvular type of people that we are talking about, that when I´ve been the perfect English Gentleman I got ZERO results.

However, I used the advice of Boatabike (a some time user of tv.com) and when next a problem arose, I was "acting the part" of their Sergeant.

I ORDERED THEM.

And not only did they obey and keep the beach quite, but they also same to my table at breakfast time and thanked me for a wonderful time.

[Thaiquila]

This is ridiculous. So you are saying it is code word for young Israelis just out of the army. I do not believe for one second that any Israeli of any age, or any Jew of any nationality would welcome such a sign of blatant bigotry.

If you tolerate such bigotry, that is your business.

This kind of sign is anything but subtle. It is in your face discriminatory and offensive. It is the same as the signs in the American south that used to say "No blacks" but they used a ruder word.

I still find the tolerance for this amazing. Is this a European thing?

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Gonzo the Face]

This is ridiculous. So you are saying it is code word for young Israelis just out of the army. I do not believe for one second that any Israeli of any age, or any Jew of any nationality would welcome such a sign of blatant bigotry.

If you tolerate such bigotry, that is your business.

This kind of sign is anything but subtle. It is in your face discriminatory and offensive. It is the same as the signs in the American south that used to say "No blacks" but they used a ruder word.

I still find the tolerance for this amazing. Is this a European thing?

Thaiquila, I do sincerely think you are showing your bias. This post is NOT about religion, NOT about Race, it is about a business decision that some people who are trying to make their place of business desirable and comfortable for others of the public to use.

The signs "NO ISRAELI'S" is not being used as a sign to prohibit any religion, or race , but is the word the individual Thai businessman has best found, by his experience, to describe the group of people who create disruption in the harmony of his guest house.

It is a business decision not based on race, or religion. Much like if one business was constantly invaded by unwasshed septic tank workers . It would be bad for his business. The fact that the unwashed septic tank workers wore red shirts or brown shirts, , or were male or female is insignificant. The term that covers these people would be "Septic Tank Workers"

In the case of "NO ISRAELI's" this is the term that many business owners have deemed, independent of other business owners, most defines the group of individuals who are the ones who make his business place undesirable to others.

It does not say race, religion, or what have you. You in your mind are putting the term religion and race into it.... If the term offends some, that is a shame, but those offended individuals are not the ones who have to pay this GH owners bills

[Thaiquila]

It does not say race, religion, or what have you. You in your mind are putting the term religion and race into it.... If the term offends some, that is a shame, but those offended individuals are not the ones who have to pay this GH owners bills

So it is ME showing my bias, huh?

OK, the term No Israelis is indeed not related to race or religion, but rather a NATIONALITY, a nationality that just so happens to be the only JEWISH STATE in the history of the planet. Get real.

You have a lot of sympathy for these guest house owners. Where is your sympathy for the Israelis who just want to rent a room like everyone else? Are you also so bigotted that you also think all Israelis are bad guest house tenants?

Here is another case of totally benign bigotry based on NATIONALITY.

To the guy who said older Israelis would approve of the NO ISRAELIS signs, do you also think Irishmen welcomed these signs:

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Gonzo the Face]

It does not say race, religion, or what have you. You in your mind are putting the term religion and race into it.... If the term offends some, that is a shame, but those offended individuals are not the ones who have to pay this GH owners bills

So it is ME showing my bias, huh?

OK, the term No Israelis is indeed not related to race or religion, but rather a NATIONALITY, a nationality that just so happens to be the only JEWISH STATE in the history of the planet. Get real.

You have a lot of sympathy for these guest house owners. Where is your sympathy for the Israelis who just want to rent a room like everyone else? Are you also so bigotted that you also think all Israelis are bad guest house tenants?

Here is another case of totally benign bigotry based on NATIONALITY.

To the guy who said older Israelis would approve of the NO ISRAELIS signs, do you also think Irishmen welcomed these signs:

Settle down Thaiquila your blood pressure will go through the roof.

Judging by the anger in your post, one may be forgiven for suspecting that you are either Israeli or Jewish, or both..

If a group of smokers would come into your restaurant and continue to drop cigarette butts on the floor and you feared your business would burn down, should you as owner of the business not be able to post a no smoking sign?

But because the sign doesn't say "Smokers" but does say "Israeli" , you are getting your knickeers in an uproar. Following your interpretation, the business man is discriminating against those who smoke so he should let his business go up in smoke [pun intended] just so he wouldn't hurt the feelings of the smokers.

Take a second, a deep breath and move back from yourself. You seem to be taking this too personally and thinking with your heart and not your head.

Chill out a little.

[miltonbentley]

It does not say race, religion, or what have you. You in your mind are putting the term religion and race into it.... If the term offends some, that is a shame, but those offended individuals are not the ones who have to pay this GH owners bills

So it is ME showing my bias, huh?

OK, the term No Israelis is indeed not related to race or religion, but rather a NATIONALITY, a nationality that just so happens to be the only JEWISH STATE in the history of the planet. Get real.

You have a lot of sympathy for these guest house owners. Where is your sympathy for the Israelis who just want to rent a room like everyone else? Are you also so bigotted that you also think all Israelis are bad guest house tenants?

Here is another case of totally benign bigotry based on NATIONALITY.

To the guy who said older Israelis would approve of the NO ISRAELIS signs, do you also think Irishmen welcomed these signs:

Thaiquila I think the Irish image makes the point succinctly. Any sign that singles out either a race or nationality cannot be anything other than offensive. How would Thais feel about a sign that stated 'No Thais'? Deeply offended and rightly so.