Israelis In Chiang Mai

[taxexile]

it is nasty and discriminatory , and as another poster pointed out , an example of how the thais are not backward when coming forward with their prejudices and stereotyping. there can be few of us who have not had to listen to the populist thai take on indians and black people.

i for one welcome it , you know exactly where you stand , you know that the owner of such an establishment is in all probability an ###### and i , as a non israeli , would no sooner give them my custom than i would an establishment that had a sign banning any other racial or religious group.

its far better this way than the european way where we are all required to hide our prejudices in the name of diversity and inclusiveness.

know thine enemy.

as far as thai guesthouse owners who consider israelis to be tightfisted , perhaps they should be reminded of the thai habit of cramming whole families or whole groups of friends into one hotel room in order to keep costs down , much to the consternation of the (usually thai) hotel owner.

[Thaiquila]

Gonzo,

I said before a restriction based on BEHAVIOUR is totally legitimate.

A restriction based on NATIONALITY (and the case of Israelis it is also a restriction based on race and religion by default) is a totally different thing.

No smoking sign, GREAT!

No Israeli sign, unacceptable bigotry.

Get it now?

[sbk]

Thaiquila, can I make a suggestion? Come to Hadrin at the Full Moon party. Stay at a guesthouse or bungalows. Reserve judgement until you see the behavior in question.

It is discriminatory, certainly. And bigoted, I haven't been arguing that point. But I, as a bungalow manager, reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. I have never turned down a polite Israeli looking for a room. But I have turned down ones who drive through our garden on their motorbikes, blatantly overlooking the sign that says not to drive through the garden, and want rooms for them and their ten friends at a reduced price. I have also turned down Thai people who want to cram ten people in one room too. I have also turned down rude British, Irish, Germans etc.

But, I am a westerner and do not have any difficulty in saying "No" to undesirable elements, be they Israeli, British, Irish or Thai. In my experience Thai people have difficulty saying "No' and find Israelis hard to deal with since they won't take anything less than a straight "no" as an answer.

I think it is a mistake to see this as a religious thing, yes many Israelis are technically Jewish (although, to be honest, I have only ever met one religious Israeli travelling, the rest happily eat bacon cheeseburgers) Thai people don't look at them as Jewish but rather Israeli, which is, I guess, the point I failed to make. To Thai people it isn't about being Jewish, it is about being Israeli.

[Blinky Bill]

Gonzo,

I said before a restriction based on BEHAVIOUR is totally legitimate.

A restriction based on NATIONALITY (and the case of Israelis it is also a restriction based on race and religion by default) is a totally different thing.

No smoking sign, GREAT!

No Israeli sign, unacceptable bigotry.

Get it now?

My place my rules.....If I don't want you there I will tell you whether I use my mouth or a sign.

No argument.

[chuchok]

I have to agree with sbk here,although this is my take......

I would ban all male australians..(christians,muslims and jews).Can't be fairer than that now can we.

[Ulysses G.]

Here's what I came up with, thinking it out on my own. Israelis are far from the only cheapskate travellers out there. To many "backpackers", it is a point of honor to see how much they can haggle a price down. Despite the fact their hosts know how much they payed to get there, that many are sporting $200 backpacks and lug laptops around with them, spend more on one beer (consuming several more daily) than the cost of their accomodations.

Hey, I don't care if they ant to eat only white rice and green mangoes all day to save a buck, but for crissakes have a little consideration for your hosts, assuming they aren't trying to gouge you.

Well said.

Again, I deal with tourists in Thailand all day, every day and Israelis not only don't ask for discounts any more than any other group, they are a lot better at accepting it when I tell them my prices are marked on items for sale and that they are fixed prices. They accept it and don't keep bothering me like many backpackers do.

Last week an English guy kept asking me over and over to lower the price on a used item that was hard to get, that I only had one of, and that I had paid a high price for. I finally had to tell him to not to buy it if it was too expensive.

He left the store and came back two hours later claiming to have found it cheaper somewhere else - like that means that was somehow the real price - and not being satisfied with that started swearing at me in front of a shop full of children and their parents. NO Israeli has ever acted like that in my store, but it is quite common with native English speakers.

As far as some posters claiming that this is not about religion, how about the much more numerous signs all over Thailand saying, "NO MUSLIMS"? Do they claim that these are "not about religion" either?

I'm sorry, but many people are anti-Semitic and this fashionable distain for "Israelis" is just a politically correct way to justify hating Jews.

[sbk]

I disagree, but then we are each allowed our own view points. The Thais I have met who have guesthouses don't give a rats arse about Jewishness. But perhaps we meet different Thai people

And yes, there are places here that won't take Muslims either.But that is mainly because they are afraid of having their place bombed

[Ulysses G.]

And yes, there are places here that won't take Muslims either.But that is mainly because they are afraid of having their place bombed

Those " NO MUSLIMS" signs have been up for the 20 years that I've been living here and I would guess well before that.

I don't have any problem with a business not allowing a__holes on the premises, I object to tarring every member of a nationality or racial or religious group with the same brush.

A sign that says "No Negroes Allowed" is just plain wrong.

[sbk]

Never said it wasn't wrong, just trying to explain the thinking behind it. I agree with a previous poster who said that Thais (and Asians in general) are much more open about their prejudices.

But I do disagree that it is based on religion, I believe it is just based on past experiences with Israelis.

Bigoted, yes, wrong, yes. A fact of life in thailand? yes. Don't like it? Don't patronize that business. You can't make other people change their minds and you certainly won't be changing their minds on this forum since they arent' reading it, so whats the argument about then?

[sbk]

And yes, there are places here that won't take Muslims either.But that is mainly because they are afraid of having their place bombed

Those " NO MUSLIMS" signs have been up for the 20 years that I've been living here and I would guess well before that.

I don't have any problem with a business not allowing a__holes on the premises, I object to tarring every member of a nationality or racial or religious group with the same brush.

A sign that says "No Negroes Allowed" is just plain wrong.

And as an afterthought, Koh Phangan has a large and well respected Muslim community. Here it isn't about Muslims but about protecting business. Refusing service to unknown non-local Muslims is mainly coming from bungalows who really are afraid that Koh Phangan will become a target for the extremists from the deep south.

[Blinky Bill]

I have to agree with sbk here,although this is my take......

I would ban all male australians..(christians,muslims and jews).Can't be fairer than that now can we.

C'mon Chuchok. the Australian female is a far more cantankerous and dangerous creature than the male. Best ban them as well.

[chuchok]

I have to agree with sbk here,although this is my take......

I would ban all male australians..(christians,muslims and jews).Can't be fairer than that now can we.

C'mon Chuchok. the Australian female is a far more cantankerous and dangerous creature than the male. Best ban them as well.

Fair enough!

[Gonzo the Face]

One thing I am not able to rationalize here.

Several posters have singled out as the proverbial Israeli troublemaker, the recently mustered out Israeli Army personnel. Seeming to blame it on the hardships of army or service life.

Why should that be???

Take Pattaya for example..... The US Military [as well as others] are responsibe in large part for the development of Pattaya. This was a prime R & R port.

Why would the military be good in on case [read welcomed] and not good in another scenario ??

Money only ?????

[mallmagician]

I applaud Thaiquila's enthusiasm and belief in defending what he/she believes to be racism. However, I do think that this is based in a rose coloured, Kum-By-Yah, harmonious world.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A WORLD LIKE THIS!

If I eat a bag of M&M's and many of the Blue ones taste like Poo, I will avoid eating any of the Blue ones. This is the same thing. Many of the ex army Israelis to which we refer do display this arrogance, and disregard for others. Its a FACT! Not a bigoted notion that I and others on TV have invented. We see this behaviour day in and day out!

Yes, we do see many ignorant, arrogant and rude people of many other nationalities, but not to such an extent that we can label most Brits, Irish, Aussies, Swedes, Italians etc troublesome as a nationality. These individuals are just that. Individual. Because we observe many Israeli Ex Army Youngsters being Rude and Arrogant, they have "earnt" this label and subsequent bans.

In order to change perception, the people who create this perception must change. If we all suddenly come across a majority of Israeli Ex Army Youngsters who are polite, friendly etc. , then surely we would start seeing doormats with "Welcome, Especially Israelis".

To confuse Observations based on reality and real life with Ignorant Bigotry is Ignorant in its own right.

Again THaiqula, I applaud your enthusiasm for defending an idealist world. But in order to live in that sort of world, then all must subscribe to its beliefs. Unfortunately, the very people you are defending do not subscribe to these beliefs, and are the ones who are ruining it for the rest of us.

And finally, just to reiterate what I said in a previous post. There are a few Israeli guesthouse that are "Israeli Only" in Thailand. What do you say about that Thaiquila?

Now, about women drivers.................

Phil

Edited August 12, 2006 by mallmagician

[...Ken]

Those " NO MUSLIMS" signs have been up for the 20 years that I've been living here and I would guess well before that.

I don't have any problem with a business not allowing a__holes on the premises, I object to tarring every member of a nationality or racial or religious group with the same brush.

A sign that says "No Negroes Allowed" is just plain wrong.

You probably remember the "No Jews Allowed" at the Chieng Rai Bier Stubbe. Run by the German ex husband of the Chiengmai Bier Stubbe owner, if I remember correctly.

Rather tacky I agree.

In my experience the Thais don't have anything against Jews but have plenty of anecdotal and first hand negative experiences with Israelis....concerning money. As you know, Foreigners can be forgiven most everything in Thailand . Easier to be a bigot than be miserly.

...Ken

[Thaiquila]

Name me one guesthouse in Thailand that is Israeli ONLY. I know there are some that specifically target that market, but name me ONE that has a sign, that says Israelis ONLY and would turn away non-Israelis who wanted to stay in a majority Israeli setting. I don't believe there is one.

Again, I have no problem with owners screening people based on obvious bad behavior. And I am not a "Kumbaaya" type of guy.

Again, I find this tolerance of bigotry strange, and I do believe it is tolerated because Israelis are Jews.

And I find this tacit acceptance of a stereotype that all Israelis are obnoxiously cheap to also be blatant racism. Many Israelis and many Jews are cheap. So are many Frenchmen and every other nationality. I have encountered this kind of bigotry in Thais regarding Indians quite often. Also despicable. We can love Thailand and the Thais, but we don't have to love Thai bigotry.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[lannarebirth]

Name me one guesthouse in Thailand that is Israeli ONLY. I know there are some that specifically target that market, but name me ONE that has a sign, that says Israelis ONLY and would turn away non-Israelis who wanted to stay in a majority Israeli setting. I don't believe there is one.

Again, I have no problem with owners screening people based on obvious bad behavior. And I am not a "Kumbaaya" type of guy.

Again, I find this tolerance of bigotry strange, and I do believe it is tolerated because Israelis are Jews.

And I find this tacit acceptance of a stereotype that all Israelis are obnoxiously cheap to also be blatant racism. Many Israelis and many Jews are cheap. So are many Frenchmen and every other nationality. I have encountered this kind of bigotry in Thais regarding Indians quite often. Also despicable. We can love Thailand and the Thais, but we don't have to love Thai bigotry.

Well, there's this one: http://www.hobotraveler.com/096thanaguesthouse.shtml

I had a friend, a German, who emigrated to the US. He made a very nice business for himself chartering entire airliners and arranging package tours of middle age/retired Germans to Central America. He used to tell me, that somewhere over Mexico where his audience was "captive" he used to get on the planes P/A system and give them a 30 minute lecture on manners. It seems this particular demographic had a high incidence of arrogance and condescension when traveling to third world environs. He said they were shocked by his drill sergeant like presentation which with no specific evidence, tarred them all with the same brush, but he said it made for far fewer incidents on the tour.

I remember personally, a German in front of me screaming mercilessly at a ticket taker in Costa Rica for being forced to pay the "foreigner" price of 50 cents to enter a monkey/iguana preserve. What made the incident surreal for me was that he was wearing a $15,000 solid gold Rolex at the time.

I'm not sure where that fits in this thread, maybe not at all, except that I believe these signs/cautions are born of experience rather than any innate racism/prejudice.

[mallmagician]

Thaiquila. Your statement that you believe this is all down to the fact that they are Jews is offensive to me. This is not about Religion. Back home in the UK I have a number of Jewish friends, and have worked for and with Jews.

Your suggestion that I may be racist towards Jewish people is not only wrong, but completely out of order.

Why can't you understand that these opinions are based on the FACT that MANY Israelies act in a manner that guesthouse owners ajnd their other guests, do not like.

If a massive number of Women acted in a bad manner and disrupted other guests, or took away Thais dignity, then we would see signs saying No Women. It is not a discrimination based on Race or Religion. It is simply a reaction to the experience that these people have had with a particular group of people.

I reiterate, many Israelies I have met have been polite and nice, and not stingy. BUT MANY have been like the Israelies people are discussing on this forum. I have met for example MANY Swedish people. ALL bar 1 or 2 have been polite, courteous etc.

I am not racist, I do not hate all Israelies or anything of the sort. I am merely expressing my understanding of why these signs appear in guesthouses.

Phil

[Gonzo the Face]

Name me one guesthouse in Thailand that is Israeli ONLY. I know there are some that specifically target that market, but name me ONE that has a sign, that says Israelis ONLY and would turn away non-Israelis who wanted to stay in a majority Israeli setting. I don't believe there is one.

Again, I have no problem with owners screening people based on obvious bad behavior. And I am not a "Kumbaaya" type of guy.

Again, I find this tolerance of bigotry strange, and I do believe it is tolerated because Israelis are Jews.

And I find this tacit acceptance of a stereotype that all Israelis are obnoxiously cheap to also be blatant racism. Many Israelis and many Jews are cheap. So are many Frenchmen and every other nationality. I have encountered this kind of bigotry in Thais regarding Indians quite often. Also despicable. We can love Thailand and the Thais, but we don't have to love Thai bigotry.

Thaiquila, I'll give you credit for stubborness.... You could be called Thailands answer to George Bush. Tunnelsighted and unwilling to consider any other possible direction..

Look back through the posts,,, you are the one using "bigotry", you are the one using "racism". This post is about "WHY" a guest house owner would make a business decision to put up a sign saying " NO ****** " for anything. Could be any nationality or any color, or handicapped people, whatever. His business, his rules to paraphrase Blinkey Bill.

What would cause a business owner , who makes his living off of new or repeat customer's, to cast away any group of people by putting up a sign that says " No whatever". It would have to be a reason that if allowed would cause more negative than the positive or good that can be done by allowing those "whatever" in.

Yes there are many reasons to cause GH Owners discomfort, but why do you not see signs for any other groupings??? That is what I was hoping to have as a response. If no other signs were able to be seen, and I am sure the sign with some other word on it would cost the same to create, then why is only the grouping called "Israelis" in evidence.

Look at the signature line on my posts.

I was with him [who is in a wheelchair] when both Nok Air and Air Asia told him to his face they did not cater to persons in a wheelchair. In other words "NO HANDICAPS" Is this discrimimation? I think so, but is it bigotry or racism, I think not. It simply was a business decision on the part of those crummy 2nd class airlines.

"NO Israeli's" ='s discrimination ='s YES... "NO Israeli's" ='s racism, bigotry ='s NO.. Just a business dicision on the part of the business owner.

[PeaceBlondie]

Gosh, I am so naive. I was in outermost Chiapas, Mexico, with my hippie son and his hippie girlfriend, and there were about three young Israelis who just got out of the army. We spent a day or two with them, along with a pretty Korean girl, and the Israeli army veterans were gentlemen, sharing their stuff with us, etc. Then on the visa run to Mae Sai, the Israeli girl next do me was a perfect young lady. Of course, being a pacifist Christian with friends who make peace in Palestine, I avoided discussing politics or religion.

So, I wonder if the hotel and restaurant signs should say "NO DRUNKS" or "No shirt, no shoes or sandals, no service."

Maybe some parts of Thailand attract the worst of each nationality.

[Gonzo the Face]

Gosh, I am so naive. I was in outermost Chiapas, Mexico, with my hippie son and his hippie girlfriend, and there were about three young Israelis who just got out of the army. We spent a day or two with them, along with a pretty Korean girl, and the Israeli army veterans were gentlemen, sharing their stuff with us, etc. Then on the visa run to Mae Sai, the Israeli girl next do me was a perfect young lady. Of course, being a pacifist Christian with friends who make peace in Palestine, I avoided discussing politics or religion.

So, I wonder if the hotel and restaurant signs should say "NO DRUNKS" or "No shirt, no shoes or sandals, no service."

Maybe some parts of Thailand attract the worst of each nationality.

WOW !!! PB you probably did the longest visa run in the world !!!! Chiapas to Mai Sai.!!!!!

Now I am not going to believe it if you tell us that you did it in under 2 hours..... even if you did have a jet bike

[Thaiquila]

Like I said, I challenge anyone to name ONE guesthouse in all of Thailand that is restricted to Israelis ONLY.

The example given above is not such a guesthouse.

http://www.travelfish.org/accommodation_pr.../6/518/21?ord=0

Thana Guest House targets itself primarily at the Israeli backpacker market, but non-Israelis are equally welcome

[Thaiquila]

Look back through the posts,,, you are the one using "bigotry", you are the one using "racism". This post is about "WHY" a guest house owner would make a business decision to put up a sign saying " NO ****** " for anything. Could be any nationality or any color, or handicapped people, whatever. His business, his rules to paraphrase Blinkey Bill.

I think the thread is about NO ISRAELI signs because we have seen those signs. So, it is valid to ask why Israelis are being singled out for this disgusting treatment.

First time anyone has compared me to George Bush, certainly gave me a big chuckle!

It is simply a reaction to the experience that these people have had with a particular group of people.

Actually, you do NOT know that. That is your GUESS. It is a logical enough guess, but still just a guess.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[sabaijai]

We haven't heard from any Israelis yet in this thread (at least I don't think so), but I've had conversations with several Israelis who indicated they were aware of the negative perceptions about the behaviour of Israeli travellers in Thailand. Everyone that has broached the sujbect with me has also said they believed the negative stereotype had some basis in fact, i.e, they agreed that the general behaviour of many Israelis visiting Thailand was more aggressive and more overly parsimonious than that of most other nationalities. A couple of Israeli friends have also told me they intentionally avoid travelling with other Israelis because they don't want to be associated with such behaviours.

I've also been told there is (or was?) a large billboard in the international departure lounge of Tel Aviv airport reminding Israelis that when they travel abroad, they're representing their country, which suggests that even the Israeli government appears to be aware of the problem. I've not seen the sign(s) myself, having never travelled in Israel, but two different Israelis have mentioned it to me.

I also have a number of Thai friends who own and operate different guesthouses around northern Thailand who are virtually unanimous in saying they encounter more problems with Israeli guests--specifically skipping without paying the bill, stealing items from the guest rooms, lying about the number of guests sleeping in the room and mercilessly haggling on every single transaction--than with any other nationality.

Does this stereotypical behaviour--which of course does not apply to every Israeli--justify posting 'No Israelis' signs? No, but it helps explain it, if in fact such signs might be posted. I travel around the country quite a bit , however, and have yet to see one.

[Rasseru]

WOW !!! PB you probably did the longest visa run in the world !!!! Chiapas to Mai Sai.!!!!!

Possibly a result of having all those hippie children around?

[Rasseru]

Does this stereotypical behaviour--which of course does not apply to every Israeli--justify posting 'No Israelis' signs? No . . . . .

Why not?

[Ulysses G.]

Does this stereotypical behaviour--which of course does not apply to every Israeli--justify posting 'No Israelis' signs? No . . . . .

Why not?

Because the next step would be to ban Americans - too loud - Brits - too violent - Germans - cheap and demanding - Japanese - sadists - Indians - "dirty - Australians - drunken louts - New Zealaders - sheep shaggers - blacks - "dirty" - Muslims - all of the above.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[chuchok]

Does this stereotypical behaviour--which of course does not apply to every Israeli--justify posting 'No Israelis' signs? No . . . . .

Why not?

Because the next step would be to ban Americans - too loud - Brits - too violent - Germans - cheap and demanding - Japanese - sadists - Indians - "dirty - Australians - drunken louts - New Zealaders - sheep shaggers - blacks - "dirty" - Muslims - all of the above.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Rasseru]

Does this stereotypical behaviour--which of course does not apply to every Israeli--justify posting 'No Israelis' signs? No . . . . .

Why not?

Because the next step would be to ban Americans - too loud - Brits - too violent - Germans - cheap and demanding - Japanese - sadists - Indians - "dirty - Australians - drunken louts - New Zealaders - sheep shaggers - blacks - "dirty" - Muslims - all of the above.

You think so? I don't.

[Maejo Man]

Because the next step would be to ban Americans - too loud - Brits - too violent - Germans - cheap and demanding - Japanese - sadists - Indians - "dirty - Australians - drunken louts - New Zealaders - sheep shaggers - blacks - "dirty" - Muslims - all of the above.

What a great idea