40 bodies have been recovered in the search for the missing AirAsia plane

[sunshine51]

@ Dcutman....

I'm not speculating about the weather on the day of the incident...just look at the charts i posted.

That's not speculation, thats fact.

I have sailed in the same waters many times...it can be a nightmare...even on an 88 foot sloop,

that is used to heavy weather. And no...at times CB.s don't move that fast...they can stick around

a while & pile up with their neighbour CBs.

In that area of this planet, for that matter all of Indo...the weather is very strange and can be very

lethal. Spend some down there & you'll perhaps understand what I'm expounding upon.

Yes it is nice down there many times of the year...but when it turns nasty...well...you gotta be there

to experience it. Sea, Airl or Land...it don't matter when it goes to shit...it just does.

And why complain because it took em 3 days to begin finding stuff even if close to the last known

position after what I posted concerning the weather...hey man...can you do a better job?

I sure as hell couldn't have. To me the SAR crews did a fantastic job.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[Adeeos]

Followed it on TV.

Hate the media!! Grieving relatives getting cameras and microphones right in their faces!!

What about showing some respect for their right to privacy??

Exactly WHAT response are they expecting to a question something like,, "How are you feeling right now?,, what's your reaction to this news?.. jeeeez,, have some respect,,, compassion,,,,

[dcutman]

@ Dcutman....

I'm not speculating about the weather on the day of the incident...just look at the charts i posted. That's not speculation, thats fact. I have sailed in the same waters many times...it can be a nightmare...even on an 88 foot sloop, that is used to heavy weather. And no...at times CB.s don't move that fast...they can stick around a while & pile up with their neighbour CBs. In that area of this planet, for that matter all of Indo...the weather is very strange and can be very lethal. Spend some down there & you'll perhaps understand what I'm expounding upon. Yes it is nice down there many times of the year...but when it turns nasty...well...you gotta be there to experience it. Sea, Airl or Land...it don't matter when it goes to shit...it just does. And why complain because it took em 3 days to begin finding stuff even if close to the last known position after what I posted concerning the weather...hey man...can you do a better job? I sure as hell couldn't have. To me the SAR crews did a fantastic job. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Yeh, I guess we are gonna have to disagree. Not only on aircraft but the 30+ navy (from varying countries ) ships. The plane was lost on radar in a spot, apparently nobody could or did go to that spot to begin the search until nearly three days later. I have no idea of the circumstances of the weather hampering search efforts, but appears the search effort was not any where near the last position the flight lost contact from the beginning. Did some military or govt genius send the search party to a location they thought it should be instead of starting at the point of last contact?

I doubt there was, but if, by miracle somebody could have been rescued alive on the first day, how heart breaking would that be now?

Edited December 31, 2014 by Scott

[Dannyboy666]

And still No Pings from Black Boxes..., il continue reading comments.

[OMGImInPattaya]

very very sad news ...... my thoughts are for the families of those missing and all those on board .....

very tragic event unfolding here .... god bless all their hearts & give them strength to get through this horrible accident.

I believe one lady had five or six family members on board .... just unthinkable to lose so many loved ones. May God & Buddha bless her future ....

RIP ..

Yeah I read that report...like she was wandering around the airport mumbling something about her lost family and Allah. It's kinda sad reading about people living in such ignorance.

I do hope those who lost friends and family find comfort in time.

[Sirpia]

Video detailing likely scenario.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/sudden-cabin-depressurization-affects-air-153618505.html

Edited December 30, 2014 by Sirpia

[Gulfsailor]

@ Dcutman....

I'm not speculating about the weather on the day of the incident...just look at the charts i posted. That's not speculation, thats fact. I have sailed in the same waters many times...it can be a nightmare...even on an 88 foot sloop,

that is used to heavy weather. And no...at times CB.s don't move that fast...they can stick around a while & pile up with their neighbour CBs. In that area of this planet, for that matter all of Indo...the weather is very strange and can be very

lethal. Spend some down there & you'll perhaps understand what I'm expounding upon. Yes it is nice down there many times of the year...but when it turns nasty...well...you gotta be there to experience it. Sea, Airl or Land...it don't matter when it goes to shit...it just does. And why complain because it took em 3 days to begin finding stuff even if close to the last known position after what I posted concerning the weather...hey man...can you do a better job? I sure as hell couldn't have. To me the SAR crews did a fantastic job. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Yeh, I guess we are gonna have to disagree. Not only on aircraft but the 30+ navy (from varying countries ) ships. The plane was lost on radar in a spot, apparently nobody could or did go to that spot to begin the search until nearly three days later. I have no idea of the circumstances of the weather hampering search efforts, but appears the search effort was not any where near the last position the flight lost contact from the beginning. Did some military or govt genius send the search party to a location they thought it should be instead of starting at the point of last contact?

I doubt there was, but if, by miracle somebody could have been rescued alive on the first day, how heart breaking would that be now?

I think the SAR made a deliberate choice not to first look at the last known point where the plane was on radar. Last known position was 7km up in the air. If there was any chance of survivors it would mean a scenario played out where the plane did not go straight down from that point, but at least had some gliding capability. Hence you start to look in a location on the ground/water at least 50km away and work your way outward from there. That's the best chance to find survivors. On the third day when it becomes more likely it is no longer a rescue mission but a search and salvage mission you can assign some SAR assets to start looking on the ground/water directly under the last known position in the air.

[bangon04]

Grief, condolences, ceremonial rites, and taking care of those left behind must be the first priority.

A little later one must hope there will be a very detailed investigation to see what lessons can be learned.

The SAR crews are doing a good job in difficult circumstances, I think we can agree.

As for detailed investigation and learning lessons, this seems to depend upon Indonesian politicians and army heads cooperating fully with outside experts and accepting help and criticism where necessary. They have not had a good track record in this so far....

[Xircal]

If the aircraft broke up in midflight, clothes will be stripped from the bodies of passengers as happened when MH17 was brought down over Ukraine.

However, if as has been reported that a 'shadow' of the plane has been spotted on the seabed, then that would suggest the aircraft landed intact, or at least some attempt at landing was made by the captain. Given though that there were severe storms in the area, a smooth landing on the surface is probably out of the question unfortunately.

It will depend on how the aircraft behaved when it hit the water that will determine what forces a human body was subjected to and could explain why some bodies have been recovered partially naked.

It's a little odd though that the bodies which have been recovered weren't attached to seats as would have been the case if they had been strapped in. That would suggest that some of them at least had time to get out. But why then did they die?

But why then did they die?

Exhaustion? Waiting too long for rescue? Water temperature? Sudden air pressure difference?

Some of them were wearing lifejackets which implies they had time to put them on. Or had been instructed to do so by the crew.

Waiting too long for rescue? It's only been two days. Water temperature was favourable: http://seatemperature.info/surabaya-water-temperature.html

Sudden air pressure differential would only apply if there had been an inflight breakup.

Other factors concerning the crash though.

I posted a link to an Emergency Air Worthiness warning in the other thread, but maybe some readers missed it. So I've included an image of part of it here. Here's the link to it again though: http://cdn1.atp.com/ADs/pdf/142551e.pdf

Blockage of the pitot tubes can cause the the aircraft to become uncontrollable if the circumstances described in the EAW are not promptly corrected. In the following news item http://theaviationist.com/2014/12/28/airasia-indonesia-missing/ it mentions that the aircraft had in fact climbed to 36,300 ft even though ATC had refused clearance. But in doing so, it had reduced speed to the point where an aerodynamic stall can occur.

Coupled with that is the fact that the aircraft was equipped with CFM56-5B engines. There have been past failures with these engines cutting out in certain conditions like transversing rain at altitude such as the aircraft would have encountered on that particular occasion: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/atsb-issues-safety-advisory-notice-against-cfm56-5-and-cfm56-7-345359/

The aircraft underwent its last maintenance inspection of November 16 according to reports. Let's hope that engine failure during the climb wasn't responsible for the loss of airspeed at that critical stage.

[katana]

There are reports that 3 bodies were holding hands. It is looking more like this captain got the plane down to some degree.

Interesting , what is your source ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/airasia-flight-qz8501-crash-pilot-describes-seeing-victims-holding-hands-in-the-water-9950077.html

[outboard]

Video detailing likely scenario.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/sudden-cabin-depressurization-affects-air-153618505.html

this video is typical of the quality of information we are getting on this incident.

if an aircraft is rated to 39,100 ft it is not going to suddenly explode if it goes to 39,101 ft

if it is rated to take 2.5g forces it is not going to fall out of the sky because it experienced 2.51g's

sensationalism sells newspapers and keeps journalists in jobs.

Other bullsh!t being reported -:

the request for flight deviation was refused, this has been reported as request for "an unusual deviation" well any deviation is unusual so that is not so big a deal as it reads and according to some reports although the initial request was technically denied a deviation and increase in altitude was approved

SAR pilot saw what looked like 3 bodies holding hands in the water, at 100ft sea weed could look like 3 bodies holding hands

40 bodies recovered, apparently only 3-6 bodies have been recovered again reporters are there to sell newspapers not report the truth

Questions being asked on TVF -:

why did they not start looking at the last known location?

it is quite possible they did , photos of the initial search area suggests they did , but looking is not finding , the pictures of the area the bodies were found in shows relatively calm seas and reasonably clear water, being only 25-30 metres this could well have been extremely turbid cloudy water 24 hours ago remember waves on the ocean are not a surface event they extend right through the water column and stir up the sand at the bottom as well as the surface.

why was he going so slow during the climb? taken from an alleged picture of ATC radar, the radar shows ground speed not air speed, it is a still photo or screen cap and does not show how long he was at that speed , airspeed may have been different.

keep in mind even with the experts on this forum that have extensive experience in areas of piloting, ATC, SAR, the information we have to work with is coming from reporters who's experience in selling newspapers by dramatising and embellishing events far exceeds the incompetence of even the most backward politician.

Edited December 30, 2014 by outboard

[webfact]

AIRASIA FLIGHT QZ8501
Bodies recovered
Agencies
Jakarta


Members of an Indonesian Air Force crew carry what is believed to be an emergency slide from the AirAsia plane which was recovered during a search and rescue operation and brought to the military base in Pangkalan Bun in central Borneo yesterday.

JAKARTA: -- INDONESIAN RESCUERS searching for a missing AirAsia plane carrying 162 people pulled bodies and wreckage from the sea off the coast of Borneo yesterday, as relatives of those on board broke down in tears on hearing the news.

Indonesian AirAsia Flight QZ8501, an Airbus A320-200, lost contact with air traffic control early on Sunday during bad weather on a flight from the Indonesian city of Surabaya to Singapore.

The navy said 40 bodies had been recovered by the time dusk fell.

Two bodies and several oxygen cylinders were retrieved from waters where debris believed from the missing AirAsia plane was found off Borneo island. The remains and cylinders have been taken to Pangkalan Bun in Central Kalimantan province, but there was no confirmation that they were from the AirAsia aircraft, an Indonesian Air Force spokesman said.

"It's strongly believed that they are from the aircraft," Hadi Tjahjanto said by phone. "Our priority now is to recover bodies."

The plane has yet to be found and there was no word on the possibility of any survivors.

"My heart is filled with sadness for all the families involved in QZ8501," airline boss Tony Fernandes tweeted. "On behalf of AirAsia, my condolences to all. Words cannot express how sorry I am."

Pictures of floating bodies were broadcast on television and relatives of the missing gathered at a crisis centre in Surabaya wept with heads in their hands. Several people collapsed in grief and were helped away, a Reuters reporter said.

"You have to be strong," the mayor of Surabaya, Tri Rismaharini, said as she comforted relatives.

"They are not ours, they belong to God."

A navy spokesman said a plane door, oxygen tanks and one body had been recovered and taken away by helicopter for tests.

About 30 ships and 21 aircraft from Indonesia, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea and the United States have been involved in the search of up to 10,000 square nautical miles.

The plane, which did not issue a distress signal, disappeared after its pilot failed to get permission to fly higher to avoid bad weather because of heavy air traffic, officials said.

It was travelling at 32,000 feet (9,753 metres) and had asked to fly at 38,000 feet, officials said earlier.

Pilots and aviation experts said thunderstorms, and requests to gain altitude to avoid them, were not unusual in that area.

'Plane was rising and may have stalled'

The Indonesian pilot was experienced and the plane last underwent maintenance in mid-November, the airline said.

The aircraft had accumulated about 23,000 flight hours in some 13,600 flights, according to Airbus.

Online discussion among pilots has centred on unconfirmed secondary radar data from Malaysia that suggested the aircraft was climbing at a speed of 353 knots, about 100 knots too slow, and that it might have stalled.

The plane, whose engines were made by CFM International, co-owned by General Electric and Safran of France, lacked real-time engine diagnostics or monitoring, a GE spokesman said. Such systems are mainly used on long-haul flights and can provide clues to airlines and investigators when things go wrong.

Three airline disasters involving Malaysian-affiliated carriers in less than a year have dented confidence in the country's aviation industry and spooked travellers across the region.

Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 went missing on March 8 on a trip from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 passengers and crew on board and has not been found. On July 17, the same airline's Flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board.

On board Flight QZ8501 were 155 Indonesians, three South Koreans, and one person each from Singapore, Malaysia and Britain. The co-pilot was French.

US law enforcement and security officials said passenger and crew lists were being examined but nothing significant had turned up and the incident was regarded as an unexplained accident.

Indonesia AirAsia is 49 per cent owned by Malaysia-based AirAsia. The group, including affiliates in Thailand, the Philippines and India, has never suffered a crash before.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/Bodies-recovered-30251023.html


-- The Nation 2014-12-31

[krisb]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

Yes, some may have made it. I thought this at the first report of a life jacket and a bouyancy vest being spotted, and the aircraft's slide. It means they opened the doors and some got out. The woman in the video appears to have stripped down for a swim.

In the face of at least 40 deaths, at least others may be alive.

I really hope you guys are right, but when you think about the height versus how far away it was on radar at last sighting, it must have hit the water really hard. Perhaps with enough force to rip off a loose fitting dress.

Edited December 30, 2014 by krisb

[Jdiddy]

A loose fitting dress could easily be stripped off someone in very rough seas

[krisb]

Video detailing likely scenario.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/sudden-cabin-depressurization-affects-air-153618505.html

this video is typical of the quality of information we are getting on this incident.

if an aircraft is rated to 39,100 ft it is not going to suddenly explode if it goes to 39,101 ft

if it is rated to take 2.5g forces it is not going to fall out of the sky because it experienced 2.51g's

sensationalism sells newspapers and keeps journalists in jobs.

Other bullsh!t being reported -:

the request for flight deviation was refused, this has been reported as request for "an unusual deviation" well any deviation is unusual so that is not so big a deal as it reads and according to some reports although the initial request was technically denied a deviation and increase in altitude was approved

SAR pilot saw what looked like 3 bodies holding hands in the water, at 100ft sea weed could look like 3 bodies holding hands

40 bodies recovered, apparently only 3-6 bodies have been recovered again reporters are there to sell newspapers not report the truth

Questions being asked on TVF -:

why did they not start looking at the last known location?

it is quite possible they did , photos of the initial search area suggests they did , but looking is not finding , the pictures of the area the bodies were found in shows relatively calm seas and reasonably clear water, being only 25-30 metres this could well have been extremely turbid cloudy water 24 hours ago remember waves on the ocean are not a surface event they extend right through the water column and stir up the sand at the bottom as well as the surface.

why was he going so slow during the climb? taken from an alleged picture of ATC radar, the radar shows ground speed not air speed, it is a still photo or screen cap and does not show how long he was at that speed , airspeed may have been different.

keep in mind even with the experts on this forum that have extensive experience in areas of piloting, ATC, SAR, the information we have to work with is coming from reporters who's experience in selling newspapers by dramatising and embellishing events far exceeds the incompetence of even the most backward politician.

Sirpia, that dramatization must be one of the worst I've ever seen.

It's actually beyond terrible.

[willyumiii]

I have to wonder what the reasons were for denying permission to change altitude to avoid the storm were.

[NongKhaiKid]

I have to wonder what the reasons were for denying permission to change altitude to avoid the storm were.

I heard on television it was because there was another flight above them.

[MrWorldwide]

I have to wonder what the reasons were for denying permission to change altitude to avoid the storm were.

I heard on television it was because there was another flight above them.

That's what I read on one of the Oz news sites - there were several planes on the same heading, and the others managed to avoid the worst of the storm. Unlike some of the finger pointers here, I still believe it's premature to start laying blame until they investigate the crash, hopefully with the aid of whatever box or boxes they can find from the wreckage.

Hopefully those who drew immediate parallels with MH370 will pull their heads in next time something like this happens, tin hat or no tin hat. If I was lost at sea, the last people I would want on the case would be the collective brains trust here at ThaiVisa, many of whom would have abandoned the search 48 hours in. Let's leave the search to the professionals next time, shall we ?

[draftvader]

A loose fitting dress could easily be stripped off someone in very rough seas

Thank you. That is probably the best explanation. I can accept clothing being ripped off on impact but not the right amount of force to leave her bra and knickers on but nothing else. I can see a situation where, having been told to brace, she had removed her shoes. The loose fitting dress being washed off is plausible. Now it comes down to the question of the emergency door and the raft being the 2 items they located. I do have other questions that follow on from this but feel the next 48 hours will bring answers, many of which we won't want to hear, and I am content to wait for those now.

I still hold a small glimmer of hope that there might be survivors but expect it to be removed today, sadly. Just hoping they didn't suffer too much and there is an open and transparent investigation led by a respectful corporation that is interested in more clarity to allow future safety improvements rather than a government trying to cover up ineptitude & corruption. This could be a defining moment for Tony Fernandes. There are ways to deal with this that will support the future of his business and the families affected whilst providing an accurate, and open, picture of how to ensure it never happens again.

[MrWorldwide]

A loose fitting dress could easily be stripped off someone in very rough seas

Thank you. That is probably the best explanation. I can accept clothing being ripped off on impact but not the right amount of force to leave her bra and knickers on but nothing else. I can see a situation where, having been told to brace, she had removed her shoes. The loose fitting dress being washed off is plausible. Now it comes down to the question of the emergency door and the raft being the 2 items they located. I do have other questions that follow on from this but feel the next 48 hours will bring answers, many of which we won't want to hear, and I am content to wait for those now.

I still hold a small glimmer of hope that there might be survivors but expect it to be removed today, sadly. Just hoping they didn't suffer too much and there is an open and transparent investigation led by a respectful corporation that is interested in more clarity to allow future safety improvements rather than a government trying to cover up ineptitude & corruption. This could be a defining moment for Tony Fernandes. There are ways to deal with this that will support the future of his business and the families affected whilst providing an accurate, and open, picture of how to ensure it never happens again.

From the latest thread re the forensic investigation -

Q. Can investigators get information from the bodies?

A: Yes. If a body is fully clothed, it probably emerged after the plane hit the water. Less clothing indicates that a person may have been ejected mid-flight, Goelz says. Autopsies that show death resulted from blunt-force trauma "could suggest passengers were alive upon impact with the water," says Scott Hamilton, managing director of the aviation consulting firm Leeham Co. Other causes of death can point to rapid decompression of the plane after an in-flight breakup.

[draftvader]

A loose fitting dress could easily be stripped off someone in very rough seas

Thank you. That is probably the best explanation. I can accept clothing being ripped off on impact but not the right amount of force to leave her bra and knickers on but nothing else. I can see a situation where, having been told to brace, she had removed her shoes. The loose fitting dress being washed off is plausible. Now it comes down to the question of the emergency door and the raft being the 2 items they located. I do have other questions that follow on from this but feel the next 48 hours will bring answers, many of which we won't want to hear, and I am content to wait for those now.

I still hold a small glimmer of hope that there might be survivors but expect it to be removed today, sadly. Just hoping they didn't suffer too much and there is an open and transparent investigation led by a respectful corporation that is interested in more clarity to allow future safety improvements rather than a government trying to cover up ineptitude & corruption. This could be a defining moment for Tony Fernandes. There are ways to deal with this that will support the future of his business and the families affected whilst providing an accurate, and open, picture of how to ensure it never happens again.

From the latest thread re the forensic investigation -

Q. Can investigators get information from the bodies?

A: Yes. If a body is fully clothed, it probably emerged after the plane hit the water. Less clothing indicates that a person may have been ejected mid-flight, Goelz says. Autopsies that show death resulted from blunt-force trauma "could suggest passengers were alive upon impact with the water," says Scott Hamilton, managing director of the aviation consulting firm Leeham Co. Other causes of death can point to rapid decompression of the plane after an in-flight breakup.

Yes, just saw that. Thank you for bringing it here.

[jspill]

Conspiracy theory that a Chinese intelligence official predicted the attack on Airasia http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/12/30/mh370-mh17-conspiracy-theory_n_6394792.html

[RigPig]

Well having read all of this I still feel the delay in beginning the search and the hesitation to accept help could be contributing factors in some of these peoples demise, we may never know(I am worried there may be some "face" saving going on after this). And in any case trying and failing is acceptable, not trying is not. Before you criticize my comments think what it would be like if you or your loved ones MAY have been in those seas for that long. Searching with spotlights at night, using loud speakers, ANYTHING is better than, oh it's too rough lets go home and start again in the morning....... Sure you don't want another incident but were the seas that rough ships couldn't sail?

You would be counting on SAR to get there ASAP, the delays were not caused by SAR I am sure but by bureaucracy. Singapore was ready to go in hours and just waiting for permission (which didn't come until the following day) to join the search.....

NEVER give up !!

I have a couple of interesting questions for the experts too.

If they had their seat belts on (and if they were in turbulent weather they should of had) how did the bodies get out of the plane if they all died on impact?

How long could you survive in the sea without water?

Could the emergency doors and evacuation slides open and deploy on impact or were they opened and deployed after impact?

Life jackets have to be inflated and it is not usually done until the plane has been evacuated also, draw your own conclusions...

Criticism and asking questions is what brings change and (hopefully) improvement. I know a country which doesn't do this due to culture and other reasons and this is holding them back, so for me the more the merrier. This is what opens you up to other peoples ideas and opinions, and hopefully aids in moving forward.

[MrWorldwide]

@RigPig, you've opened the door for another round of conjecture, but how many of us know what actually happens when an aircraft crashes into the sea ? I've only seen old footage from WWII and other conflicts, and I dont see any point in linking to those images when the focus should now be on retrieving the fuselage and beginning a serious investigation to determine exactly what caused this aircraft to fall out of the sky. If this crash and the Ukraine disaster have shattered any of my long-held assumptions, it's that a crash wouldnt leave the bodies intact - a grim task ahead for the recovery team.

[shaurene]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

There was a report on BBC earlier, and I thought I caught a glimpse of a body in a life jacket. However they cut away from showing it.

There's some overly graphic video out of Jakarta and posted on youtube showing a helo. winch-man descending towards a floating lifeless female, I don';t understand why she was clad in underwear only, seems she was preparing for a swim in the hope that help would arrive, it's all very tragic..

They would not have had time to undress if they had the pilots would have had time to make a call.

It seems like the plane could have entered Cummbulo Nimbus cloud, they are full of rain and ice and large air pockets and can reach heights of 40k ft planes will avoid them at all times if they can as they can drop quite a few thousand feet I believe.

I received an private pilots license in the UK and that was one thing drummed into us. On lot of flights in the evenings you can see some of these clouds with lightening flashed inside of them

God bless them all

[jpinx]

Well having read all of this I still feel the delay in beginning the search and the hesitation to accept help could be contributing factors in some of these peoples demise, we may never know(I am worried there may be some "face" saving going on after this). And in any case trying and failing is acceptable, not trying is not. Before you criticize my comments think what it would be like if you or your loved ones MAY have been in those seas for that long. Searching with spotlights at night, using loud speakers, ANYTHING is better than, oh it's too rough lets go home and start again in the morning....... Sure you don't want another incident but were the seas that rough ships couldn't sail?

You would be counting on SAR to get there ASAP, the delays were not caused by SAR I am sure but by bureaucracy. Singapore was ready to go in hours and just waiting for permission (which didn't come until the following day) to join the search.....

NEVER give up !!

I have a couple of interesting questions for the experts too.

If they had their seat belts on (and if they were in turbulent weather they should of had) how did the bodies get out of the plane if they all died on impact?

How long could you survive in the sea without water?

Could the emergency doors and evacuation slides open and deploy on impact or were they opened and deployed after impact?

Life jackets have to be inflated and it is not usually done until the plane has been evacuated also, draw your own conclusions...

Criticism and asking questions is what brings change and (hopefully) improvement. I know a country which doesn't do this due to culture and other reasons and this is holding them back, so for me the more the merrier. This is what opens you up to other peoples ideas and opinions, and hopefully aids in moving forward.

Seat belts properly fastened and tightened will help survival considerably if the passenger also adopts the brace position. Depending on the conditions -- breaking waves, temperature, etc - and also depending on the condition of the survivor, someone could survive floating for a few days. Emergency doors and slides are operated manually.

[RigPig]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

There was a report on BBC earlier, and I thought I caught a glimpse of a body in a life jacket. However they cut away from showing it.

There's some overly graphic video out of Jakarta and posted on youtube showing a helo. winch-man descending towards a floating lifeless female, I don';t understand why she was clad in underwear only, seems she was preparing for a swim in the hope that help would arrive, it's all very tragic..

They would not have had time to undress if they had the pilots would have had time to make a call.

It seems like the plane could have entered Cummbulo Nimbus cloud, they are full of rain and ice and large air pockets and can reach heights of 40k ft planes will avoid them at all times if they can as they can drop quite a few thousand feet I believe.

I received an private pilots license in the UK and that was one thing drummed into us. On lot of flights in the evenings you can see some of these clouds with lightening flashed inside of them

God bless them all

Sorry that's not the way I see it, if the captain was busy wrestling the plane down he may not have had time to send a message, he was too busy, he may well of died on impact as he is at the front of the plane. If any survivors managed to escape they had 3 days to get undressed in the sea. The water temperature is not bad there from what I have been told and clothing could well be a hindrance.

Just a different perspective and of course all conjecture.

[draftvader]

There was a report on BBC earlier, and I thought I caught a glimpse of a body in a life jacket. However they cut away from showing it.

There's some overly graphic video out of Jakarta and posted on youtube showing a helo. winch-man descending towards a floating lifeless female, I don';t understand why she was clad in underwear only, seems she was preparing for a swim in the hope that help would arrive, it's all very tragic..

They would not have had time to undress if they had the pilots would have had time to make a call.

It seems like the plane could have entered Cummbulo Nimbus cloud, they are full of rain and ice and large air pockets and can reach heights of 40k ft planes will avoid them at all times if they can as they can drop quite a few thousand feet I believe.

I received an private pilots license in the UK and that was one thing drummed into us. On lot of flights in the evenings you can see some of these clouds with lightening flashed inside of them

God bless them all

Anybody who has done any form of swimming lifesaving award in their school years or as a profession will tell you that you should always try to remove your shoes as soon as possible as they hinder treading water. Then you should remove any other clothing and attempt to use it as a floatation device (quite a lot of trial and error but if you are bobbing about in the sea for hours then it is quite a healthy past-time). Naturally there is a balance due to the location and exposure here (so the prudent advice would be to remove the lower layer of clothing to use as a floatation device and keep the upper layer on for sun protection) however I still feel that there is a chance that the woman in those images had time to remove her clothes. I feel this is as plausible as the currents removing a light dress. Time will tell. Either way I still have some hope that a life raft made it out full and the erroneously quote 40 bodies are it and the other 121 are hot, tired, hungry but alive. As I said earlier I recognise the chances are VERY low but I hold hope.....just a little.

Reading about aircraft slide/rafts it would appear that there is a small chance of inflation due to impact but the standard procedure is manual including detaching from the aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_slide#Types

Slides and slide/rafts can be detached from the girt bar, usually by a two or three step procedures. This may, for example, involve lifting up the flap on the girt bar, and pulling the detach handle. These procedures are usually placarded red on the slide, "For Ditching Use Only". Once the slide is separated, the slide remains attached to the aircraft by a mooring line. This line will break if the airframe submerges, or can be disconnected with a pre-supplied knife or disconnect handle.

[RigPig]

Well having read all of this I still feel the delay in beginning the search and the hesitation to accept help could be contributing factors in some of these peoples demise, we may never know(I am worried there may be some "face" saving going on after this). And in any case trying and failing is acceptable, not trying is not. Before you criticize my comments think what it would be like if you or your loved ones MAY have been in those seas for that long. Searching with spotlights at night, using loud speakers, ANYTHING is better than, oh it's too rough lets go home and start again in the morning....... Sure you don't want another incident but were the seas that rough ships couldn't sail?

You would be counting on SAR to get there ASAP, the delays were not caused by SAR I am sure but by bureaucracy. Singapore was ready to go in hours and just waiting for permission (which didn't come until the following day) to join the search.....

NEVER give up !!

I have a couple of interesting questions for the experts too.

If they had their seat belts on (and if they were in turbulent weather they should of had) how did the bodies get out of the plane if they all died on impact?

How long could you survive in the sea without water?

Could the emergency doors and evacuation slides open and deploy on impact or were they opened and deployed after impact?

Life jackets have to be inflated and it is not usually done until the plane has been evacuated also, draw your own conclusions...

Criticism and asking questions is what brings change and (hopefully) improvement. I know a country which doesn't do this due to culture and other reasons and this is holding them back, so for me the more the merrier. This is what opens you up to other peoples ideas and opinions, and hopefully aids in moving forward.

Seat belts properly fastened and tightened will help survival considerably if the passenger also adopts the brace position.

Depending on the conditions -- breaking waves, temperature, etc - and also depending on the condition of the survivor, someone could survive floating for a few days.

Emergency doors and slides are operated manually.

That's what I thought, the outcome of this is going to be interesting. Of course whether we ever get to know the truth is another thing. I hope they bring in independent (and foreign) teams to conduct the enquiry.....

[Robby nz]

Regarding the search being called off at night, from what I read it was only the air search that was called off the ships involved were still searching.

This is fair enough for there is a good chance that the extreme weather had a big part in this disaster and to risk others at night in similar conditions would be foolish, add to that the planes, and ships for that matter, would mostly have been searching visually for I can tell you from experience that radar is virtually useless attempting to pick up a small object in a rough sea, even when you have a good idea where it is.