France drops its super tax on millionaires

[MJP]

I am not going to discount how hard working many of the rich are, but a great deal of wealth is in part due to luck. Being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product goes a very long way to making people wealthy.

I know a lot of business people who have a lot of money. They aren't among the very wealthy. They don't own a jet, but may have a plane. They may have a nice home and a holiday home somewhere. They didn't have lady luck on their side, they got wealthy by very, very hard work.

Being poor really is the pits. I've been there, but not for long. It's really not a nice place to be.

I also know that a lot of wealth comes from crime. Anything from sharp practice to full on fraud.

[MJP]

^^ I'm not bashing the rich, but I certainly will defend the working poor from being branded "leeches".

I will defend them also. But I don't think there is an intrinsic nobility in being poor. I've been poor and I found poverty to be very motivating.

I do realize that many people do the right things, follow the rules, work very hard all their life and still get very screwed by the system ... in the USA & Europe, and esp. in third-world countries. And no matter how honorably our intentions, we all contribute to that to varying degrees. A vivid example is living in the cheaper economy of Thailand with much cheaper rent, food, taxis, labor, etc. than our home countries. Or buying and eating chocolate that's harvested by very cheap, semi-slave child labor in West Africa. Or using a computer, mobile phone, iPad, etc. made my over-worked under-paid Chinese factory workers.

I didn't say there was any nobility in being poor. Just pointing out that being poor does not mean you are a leech.

My demolition crews and ground workers work extremely hard and are paid comparatively low wages. I also know that all of their incomes are used up on rent of basic housing, food and bills leaving no disposable income, most are struggling in debt. They are very far from being leeches. Without their hard work the rest of us would not enjoy the incomes we do.

So credit where credits due.

[Credo]

I am not going to discount how hard working many of the rich are, but a great deal of wealth is in part due to luck. Being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product goes a very long way to making people wealthy.

I know a lot of business people who have a lot of money. They aren't among the very wealthy. They don't own a jet, but may have a plane. They may have a nice home and a holiday home somewhere. They didn't have lady luck on their side, they got wealthy by very, very hard work.

Being poor really is the pits. I've been there, but not for long. It's really not a nice place to be.

I also know that a lot of wealth comes from crime. Anything from sharp practice to full on fraud.

Even when I was desperately poor, I didn't seriously consider crime as an option. The risk of getting caught is too high and I never had any on the job training.

[MJP]

I am not going to discount how hard working many of the rich are, but a great deal of wealth is in part due to luck. Being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product goes a very long way to making people wealthy.

I know a lot of business people who have a lot of money. They aren't among the very wealthy. They don't own a jet, but may have a plane. They may have a nice home and a holiday home somewhere. They didn't have lady luck on their side, they got wealthy by very, very hard work.

Being poor really is the pits. I've been there, but not for long. It's really not a nice place to be.

I also know that a lot of wealth comes from crime. Anything from sharp practice to full on fraud.

Even when I was desperately poor, I didn't seriously consider crime as an option. The risk of getting caught is too high and I never had any on the job training.

I don't know any poor crooks, but I do know some rich ones.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

As Gerard Depardieu said;

F OO K You Garston, Dos Vedanya!!

If he moved all his money to Russia, he will be sorry he didn't just pay the tax.

[Credo]

I don't know any poor crooks, but I do know some rich ones.

I know a few. I don't know much about their financial situation. I can only see them once a month on visiting day.

I do know, however, there taxes are very, very low.

[HerbalEd]

^^ I'm not bashing the rich, but I certainly will defend the working poor from being branded "leeches".

I will defend them also. But I don't think there is an intrinsic nobility in being poor. I've been poor and I found poverty to be very motivating.

I do realize that many people do the right things, follow the rules, work very hard all their life and still get very screwed by the system ... in the USA & Europe, and esp. in third-world countries. And no matter how honorably our intentions, we all contribute to that to varying degrees. A vivid example is living in the cheaper economy of Thailand with much cheaper rent, food, taxis, labor, etc. than our home countries. Or buying and eating chocolate that's harvested by very cheap, semi-slave child labor in West Africa. Or using a computer, mobile phone, iPad, etc. made my over-worked under-paid Chinese factory workers.

I didn't say there was any nobility in being poor. Just pointing out that being poor does not mean you are a leech.

My demolition crews and ground workers work extremely hard and are paid comparatively low wages. I also know that all of their incomes are used up on rent of basic housing, food and bills leaving no disposable income, most are struggling in debt. They are very far from being leeches. Without their hard work the rest of us would not enjoy the incomes we do.

So credit where credits due.

So what about paying them more money?

BTW, just to be clear. I'm not the one who called poor people leeches ... nor do I think like that.

With my USA employees, and here in Thailand, I pay above the standard wage level ... and give bonuses for especially good and/or hard work. Not way above ... and not necessarily at first. But when an employee demonstrated their honesty, dependability and do their job especially well, I'm happy to pay them more. Not only does that make me feel better about myself, but it's also good business and can save and/or make more money for the company.

And then there are the troublesome, shiftless workers whom I jettison as soon as possible.

Edited January 1, 2015 by HerbalEd

[MJP]

^^ I'm not bashing the rich, but I certainly will defend the working poor from being branded "leeches".

I will defend them also. But I don't think there is an intrinsic nobility in being poor. I've been poor and I found poverty to be very motivating.

I do realize that many people do the right things, follow the rules, work very hard all their life and still get very screwed by the system ... in the USA & Europe, and esp. in third-world countries. And no matter how honorably our intentions, we all contribute to that to varying degrees. A vivid example is living in the cheaper economy of Thailand with much cheaper rent, food, taxis, labor, etc. than our home countries. Or buying and eating chocolate that's harvested by very cheap, semi-slave child labor in West Africa. Or using a computer, mobile phone, iPad, etc. made my over-worked under-paid Chinese factory workers.

I didn't say there was any nobility in being poor. Just pointing out that being poor does not mean you are a leech.

My demolition crews and ground workers work extremely hard and are paid comparatively low wages. I also know that all of their incomes are used up on rent of basic housing, food and bills leaving no disposable income, most are struggling in debt. They are very far from being leeches. Without their hard work the rest of us would not enjoy the incomes we do.

So credit where credits due.

So what about paying them more money?

BTW, just to be clear. I'm not the one who called poor people leeches ... nor do I think like that.

With my USA employees and here in Thailand I always pay above standard the standard wage level ... and give bonuses for especially good and/or hard work. Not way above ... and not necessarily at first. But when an employee demonstrated their honesty, dependability and do their job especially well, I'm happy to pay them more. Not only does that make me feel better about myself, but it's also good business and can save and/or make me more money.

No, you're not the one who said leeches.

I've tried getting them more money but those above won't do it. When I see what goes on and how these people are treated . . . yes I get a bit defensive.

[JacChang]

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When the economy fails, when the world doesn't have anything to eat. Blame who? The poor, the middle class, the rich?

Yes, blame the rich. You can't fine or give a ticket to a poor. You can only do it on the rich.

Taxing the rich, aka punishing the rich, aka not pleasing those who do well in the economy, those who have a handle on life and is able to manage their finances to work for them. Rich people will not want to be there. And in economies, you want rich people, they are the life and blood, they are good things. They own businesses and they spend wildly. Poor is just like leech, always need need need, want want want, and help help help.

France is very lucky to have the 75% tax rejected, it if succeeded, their economy would go down even more.

When do politicians and civilians learn, self greed and populist strategies DO NOT WORK.

Not quite true. There are the working poor. Those that actually produce the wealth and have little to show for it. I know rich people who would not be rich if it was not for the working poor.

Wrong. I understand your mentality on righteousness but it doesn't exist in the real economy. The person who does the most work in a company or a country is not necessary the one who gets paid the most. Putting that aside, we get to reality.

Rich people are people who have money, and the ability to use that money to produce more money. Usually that entails starting huge corporations and companies which then hires people and gives the poor people jobs. You must remember the cause and effect. The source starts all, not what actually produces it. Same with south Africa, your debate would say riche people doesn't affect the economy, and the civilians themselves produce the most. My example would prove it wrong right here. If no automobile manufacturers decide to invest in South Africa as their plants, where would the economy be? Nil. So they decide to invest in South Africa, hires people, now the economy starts spurring, the rich spends, the poor gets money and spends as well. Let's say now you start taxing the rich, are they scared? They are out, they find another country. Once they are out, would you still stand behind your words, that the POOR actually produces the wealth?! Go ahead, try it, let's see if they are eating sand or money when the rich are punished and leaves. Let's see if the poor is really as you claim.

My buddy and me back in high school weren't doing well with regards to grades. He told me, it's alright, let these other classmates study hard and get good grades. When we are all ready, we will hire them to do the work, and we get the most profit.

You referred to the poor as a "leech". This is true for career welfare claimants but not for the working poor.

The rich may have the capital to invest but it's the working poor who actually create the wealth, they do the work, they pull the potatoes out of the ground. Once they are out, would you still stand behind your words, that the RICH actually produce the wealth?! Go ahead, try it. Let's see if they are eating money or potatoes when the poor are punished and leave. Let's see if the rich is really as you claim.

As explained in my previous posts, you are talking about human righteousness and morals. It does not reflect on the statistics of government tax and planning and the real world economy we are in. You may think I disagree with you, but you are dead wrong. What you fail to realize is, there is the harsh truth, and there's the moral righteousness. I believe in the same thing you believe in, but please spend some time and review the ACTUAL OP thread and stay on the topic. The poor will not, I repeat for the hundred time, will not create an economy with your failed model. It's just not realistic. Same with ants, the queen does the less, but she gets the most. Without the queen, the ants are useless. That is factual statistics written on paper. You however, like to hug trees and say the worker should get the certificate or award. You are right, I agree with you, never disagreed on that part. You just have to learn to differentiate the difference between "who does the actual work" vs "who earns the most". It's interesting how you still lack the depthness of this conversation. Think about it, any country, are they welcoming more "leeches" as you say, or are they welcoming more "rich people". I'm sure developing countries have TONS of "leeches" in your words. Do they want more? Since you so seem to praise them. A poor developing countries with tons of leeches and inviting more leeches to the country? Sorry pal. Your just wrong. They need a rich guy to come in, and that rich guy will bring economy and life to the developing country. Hope this clarifies your thoughts. The truth is harsh, but you gotta accept it.

[JacChang]

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Not quite true. There are the working poor. Those that actually produce the wealth and have little to show for it. I know rich people who would not be rich if it was not for the working poor.

Wrong. I understand your mentality on righteousness but it doesn't exist in the real economy. The person who does the most work in a company or a country is not necessary the one who gets paid the most. Putting that aside, we get to reality.

Rich people are people who have money, and the ability to use that money to produce more money. Usually that entails starting huge corporations and companies which then hires people and gives the poor people jobs. You must remember the cause and effect. The source starts all, not what actually produces it. Same with south Africa, your debate would say riche people doesn't affect the economy, and the civilians themselves produce the most. My example would prove it wrong right here. If no automobile manufacturers decide to invest in South Africa as their plants, where would the economy be? Nil. So they decide to invest in South Africa, hires people, now the economy starts spurring, the rich spends, the poor gets money and spends as well. Let's say now you start taxing the rich, are they scared? They are out, they find another country. Once they are out, would you still stand behind your words, that the POOR actually produces the wealth?! Go ahead, try it, let's see if they are eating sand or money when the rich are punished and leaves. Let's see if the poor is really as you claim.

My buddy and me back in high school weren't doing well with regards to grades. He told me, it's alright, let these other classmates study hard and get good grades. When we are all ready, we will hire them to do the work, and we get the most profit.

You referred to the poor as a "leech". This is true for career welfare claimants but not for the working poor.

The rich may have the capital to invest but it's the working poor who actually create the wealth, they do the work, they pull the potatoes out of the ground. Once they are out, would you still stand behind your words, that the RICH actually produce the wealth?! Go ahead, try it. Let's see if they are eating money or potatoes when the poor are punished and leave. Let's see if the rich is really as you claim.

It's obvious ... at least to some ... that it takes both the business owners and the workers to make an economy work.

Unless you've started a business from scratch and worked hard for years to build it up and make it a success, you'll never really know the other side.

One thing that rich bashers never take into account is the downsides of being a business owner. Especially the gamble of investing and reinvesting ... bank loans that you pray you'll be able to pay back and not go into bankruptcy ... the legal liabilities of being sued by a disgruntled customer, or being fined and/or prosecuted by a myriad of federal, state & local government agencies ... etc. etc.

While the worker gets to clock out and his work day is finished, many business owners work day continues. And even while on holiday there is the background mental hum of worry, or the constant emails from the business asking for guidance.

If the business owner can survive all these challenges and actually make him/her-self rich in the process ... then more power to them. I'd say they've earned it ... that is if they've treated their workers fairly during the process.

While it's assumed by most that the rich are evil, I know a lot of them who are very nice, highly ethical, and did not rip off anyone. They became successful and wealthy through years and years of very hard work, taking lots of financial gambles, and treating their employees with respect and fairness. Would the owner have gotten rich without the workers. Of course not. But on the other hand, the workers would not have had a job without the owner ... nor health insurance, a retirement fund, bonuses, being able to buy a home and put their kids through college, etc. etc.

Very well said HerbalEd, one of the best written articles I've seen in a long time on this forum.

Problem with most people is, they like to pick a side and to say negatively about the other. Rich or poor, it does not define who that person's character is like. There are rich guys who are nice and bad, likewise with the poor. One thing I do know is, I give more credit to the rich. Like you said, the rich needs to take responsibility and actually manage all the risks involved. While the poor, just goes to this regular job and gets paid his monthly salary without fluctuations in profit. While in our businesses, we are thankful for all our staffs and treat them like family. The truth remains, it is mutual help. The rich provides jobs for the general population. The poor gets rewarded by getting paid.

[MJP]

Agree with most of it, although it takes two to tango. No workers and nothing gets done, regardless of all the grand ideas. I have this problem right now, trying to resource just one major project in London.

On topic again, super tax is counter productive and if one wishes to find leeches look no further than a government that spends beyond the means of its taxpayer.

[Steely Dan]

Another dose of irrational leftism sinking after hitting a reality iceberg. Perhaps Francois Hollande might turn his hand to more advanced stuff now like addressing the French Multiculturalism disaster after 960 cars were set alight by culture enrichers on New Year's Eve.

[hawker9000]

"Loopholes" my aching butt! Govts create tax incentives endlessly to try & manipulate businesses & individuals in response to every political breeze, whim, & whacko theory of the moment, and then the know-nothing pinheads whine when businesses & individuals, SURPRISE, take advantage of them, and tax revenue declines because the thinking & execution were politically driven and deeply flawed from the outset! Instead of pointing the finger at themselves, these bureaucratic dilettantes point it at the tax-paying respondents who were only doing what they were incentivized to do in the fist place! So then the rules get changed, yesterday's incentives are suddenly today's "loopholes", and and a cat & mouse game takes over with the tax lawyers & accountants the only real long-term winners. Frustrated by their own incompetence & self-imposed financial desperation, the left "goes nuclear" and simply orders draconian tax increases. And SURPRISE AGAIN, the richest, most able-to-do-so-but-most-badly-needed taxpayers MOVE.

Socialists want to have their cake and eat it, too. They absolutely depend on business enterprise and a prosperous middle class to fund their never-ending, ever-expanding give-aways, and at the same time do everything possible to confound, demonize, DISincentivize, & cripple competitiveness, innovation, accumulation of capital and investment, self-reliance, initiative, success, long-term planning, and ultimately growth.

Edited January 2, 2015 by hawker9000