AirAsia flight QZ8501 was not cleared to fly route, says Indonesia

[englishoak]

I have no clue how ground control or tower at an airport would know which days a plane was authorized by another authority to fly.

I have no clue how the tower which gave permission for takeoff would know whether the plane was authorized to fly its route on that day.

I have no idea how Center (enroute air traffic control) would know whether the plane was authorized by another authority to fly on that day. Obviously the plane was in contact with Center enroute because it asked for permission to climb.

I also have no idea how any of this could have anything to do with a crash.

I do see how failing to check weather could be a fail. I see how many other factors could cause a crash. I just don't know why we're drumming on about "permission," even though it is the OP. I think the OP is more about being in hot water for violating something (if true) than it is about any cause of a crash.

.

ATC doesn't get involved in that. It's not in their job description.

The airline files a flight plan. The cockpit asks for departure instructions and clearance to depart based on that flight plan. ATC issues the clearance based only on requested departure time, origin and destination, separation of aircraft, and yes, weather.

They don't know or care about what days or routes the airline is licensed to fly. That is the airline's responsibility to hold themselves to those restrictions.

Air Asia violated their license.

The only thing it had to do with the crash, is if they had not violated their route license, then the crash would not have occurred.

Now, I am very curious about these two other facts:

why any flight would leave two hours early, before sunup, at that;

why Tony Fernandez sold almost a million shares in Tune Insurance (coverage for passengers) a day or two before the fight

Put all three oddities together, and it does demand investigation.

Did it leave two hours early ? id be surprised if a plane full of passengers arrived in time for a flight leaving 2 hrs before scheduled takeoff they would have had to be there about 4.30 am to check in etc etc... who does that without any notice ? ive not heard of passenger flights leaving that early anywhere let alone 2 hrs or this one, who would buy any ticket only to find the plane gone 2 hrs early ?

Shares in Tune being sold in volume a day or so previous does however raise an eyebrow.

one thing that does confuse me is the lack of any ping or locator device going off on the plane. I thought these things were bomb proof for exactly this situation ?

Edited January 4, 2015 by englishoak

[HeijoshinCool]

I have no clue how ground control or tower at an airport would know which days a plane was authorized by another authority to fly.

I have no clue how the tower which gave permission for takeoff would know whether the plane was authorized to fly its route on that day.

I have no idea how Center (enroute air traffic control) would know whether the plane was authorized by another authority to fly on that day. Obviously the plane was in contact with Center enroute because it asked for permission to climb.

I also have no idea how any of this could have anything to do with a crash.

I do see how failing to check weather could be a fail. I see how many other factors could cause a crash. I just don't know why we're drumming on about "permission," even though it is the OP. I think the OP is more about being in hot water for violating something (if true) than it is about any cause of a crash.

.

ATC doesn't get involved in that. It's not in their job description.

The airline files a flight plan. The cockpit asks for departure instructions and clearance to depart based on that flight plan. ATC issues the clearance based only on requested departure time, origin and destination, separation of aircraft, and yes, weather.

They don't know or care about what days or routes the airline is licensed to fly. That is the airline's responsibility to hold themselves to those restrictions.

Air Asia violated their license.

The only thing it had to do with the crash, is if they had not violated their route license, then the crash would not have occurred.

Now, I am very curious about these two other facts:

why any flight would leave two hours early, before sunup, at that;

why Tony Fernandez sold almost a million shares in Tune Insurance (coverage for passengers) a day or two before the fight

Put all three oddities together, and it does demand investigation.

Did it leave two hours early ? id be surprised if a plane full of passengers arrived in time for a flight leaving 2 hrs before scheduled takeoff they would have had to be there about 4.30 am to check in etc etc... who does that without any notice ? ive not heard of passenger flights leaving that early anywhere let alone 2 hrs or this one, who would buy any ticket only to find the plane gone 2 hrs early ?

Shares in Tune being sold in volume a day or so previous does however raise an eyebrow.

one thing that does confuse me is the lack of any ping or locator device going off on the plane. I thought these things were bomb proof for exactly this situation ?

.

All reports are it left two hours early. I have never heard of such a thing. Now, if all the passengers were there, and it was a full load, maybe then, but I still have never heard of such a thing.

In fact, however, many confirmed passengers did miss the flight. Lucky for them. No airline does this, how would you notify passengers, and expect them to change plans at the last minute? It's absurd.

Not just shares being sold, but Tony Fernandez himself selling off just short of 1,000,000 shares.

The boxes are pretty darn reliable. The fact that Malaysia Air's never worked either, is a huge coincidence.

[F430murci]

I have no clue how ground control or tower at an airport would know which days a plane was authorized by another authority to fly.

I have no clue how the tower which gave permission for takeoff would know whether the plane was authorized to fly its route on that day.

I have no idea how Center (enroute air traffic control) would know whether the plane was authorized by another authority to fly on that day. Obviously the plane was in contact with Center enroute because it asked for permission to climb.

I also have no idea how any of this could have anything to do with a crash.

I do see how failing to check weather could be a fail. I see how many other factors could cause a crash. I just don't know why we're drumming on about "permission," even though it is the OP. I think the OP is more about being in hot water for violating something (if true) than it is about any cause of a crash.

.

ATC doesn't get involved in that. It's not in their job description.

The airline files a flight plan. The cockpit asks for departure instructions and clearance to depart based on that flight plan. ATC issues the clearance based only on requested departure time, origin and destination, separation of aircraft, and yes, weather.

They don't know or care about what days or routes the airline is licensed to fly. That is the airline's responsibility to hold themselves to those restrictions.

Air Asia violated their license.

The only thing it had to do with the crash, is if they had not violated their route license, then the crash would not have occurred.

Now, I am very curious about these two other facts:

why any flight would leave two hours early, before sunup, at that;

why Tony Fernandez sold almost a million shares in Tune Insurance (coverage for passengers) a day or two before the flight

Put all three oddities together, and it does demand investigation.

"The only thing it had to do with the crash, is if they had not violated their route license, then the crash would not have occurred."

You are now officially a Thai. "If they hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened."

I think you deserve some R&R in Hawaii. I recommend Maui.

.

You are much more clever than that, NS. I wasn't considering just that one fact, rather the implication of all three facts together.

In the back of my mind, I guess I was also considering 8501's "steep climb" that no pilot in his right mind would ever attempt even in calm weather, as well as the Malaysia Airlines total disappearance, and what is known as "fly-by-wire." Technology that has been out there for better than two decades.

Pass the tin hat if you like, this all stinks. The passenger list needs close scrutiny.

Yes, the ventricle and horizontal leaked are incredible. Could this not be indicative of severe turbulence possibly damaging tail section of plane? What could cause elevator to lock? If locked up, the plane would stall and get stuck in tight a spin with full up elevator.

[HeijoshinCool]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

[krisb]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Contender for most stupid post. AirAsia safety record is better than most. As for not having authorised flight time. Separate issue. More about self interest. I fly AirAsia OFTEN. Brilliant service. Please come back with sensible stats with sensible post. And yes AirAsia just overflew run way days back in phillipines. So did Thai airways few months back in bkk

Brilliant service ? Air Asia even invited two teen Aussie girls to ride with them in the cockpit from take off to landing ! Not an airline I would fly with !

Malaysia Air did, not AA.

[houlicha]

SEA discount airline flights in the future will be priced either short time or all night.

[F430murci]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

I missed your fly by wire theory. What post number or where is it. Like to read.

Just humor me for the moment. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but it was something like a short climb at 6,000 to 9,000 fpm followed by a vertical drop ranging between 11,000 and 24,000 fpm with only a 61 kt horizontal speed.

This harkens me back to the late 70s and 80s. I used to get a fair amount of stick time in my father's 2 seat Pitts and his Citabria. My recollection is that if the elevator is in the up position during stall or spin, that would keep the place in spin or unable to recover, but it would also keep the plane at somewhat slower speeds while heading straight down. Would you also need to apply down elevator perhaps in non-aerobatic planes like a 320 to assist rudder. Variances in rudder inputs, AOA and how tight the rotation could account for the variations in speed. Speeds of 125 to 270 mph heading straight down or with horizontal movement of 61 kts seems like a spin to me.

With hydraulics, don't control surfaces basically flap freely in the wind if all hydraulic pressure or fluid is lost, i.e., failure on both systems on a 727 or all 4 on a 747 with fluid gone.

What happens to elevator with fly by wire if a structural failure cuts power to the control surface or elevator. Is it stuck in last position, does it center or . . .? If he initiated a climb, hit severe turbulence, had a structural failure severing power to elevator, what happens to elevator?

[techboy]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

What is dodgy is a guy who makes offhand cracks like yours and does not have a clue. Air Asia had a flawless record before this flight. No fatal accidents involving its' planes.

[HeijoshinCool]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

I missed your fly by wire theory. What post number or where is it. Like to read.

Just humor me for the moment. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but it was something like a short climb at 6,000 to 9,000 fpm followed by a vertical drop ranging between 11,000 and 24,000 fpm with only a 61 kt horizontal speed.

This harkens me back to the late 70s and 80s. I used to get a fair amount of stick time in my father's 2 seat Pitts and his Citabria. My recollection is that if the elevator is in the up position during stall or spin, that would keep the place in spin or unable to recover, but it would also keep the plane at somewhat slower speeds while heading straight down. Would you also need to apply down elevator perhaps in non-aerobatic planes like a 320 to assist rudder. Variances in rudder inputs, AOA and how tight the rotation could account for the variations in speed. Speeds of 125 to 270 mph heading straight down or with horizontal movement of 61 kts seems like a spin to me.

With hydraulics, don't control surfaces basically flap freely in the wind if all hydraulic pressure or fluid is lost, i.e., failure on both systems on a 727 or all 4 on a 747 with fluid gone.

What happens to elevator with fly by wire if a structural failure cuts power to the control surface or elevator. Is it stuck in last position, does it center or . . .? If he initiated a climb, hit severe turbulence, had a structural failure severing power to elevator, what happens to elevator?

.

Think we're talking about two different things.

The CIA has had fly-by-wire technology for better than two decades. That's the fly-by-wire I'm talking about.

And I should not have labeled it as " fly-by-wire theory," rather, fly-by-wire suspicions. I have no theories.

I have qualifications as an air traffic controller, and some second seat time, but I would hesitate to answer your other questions.

There used to be a commercial pilot on TV. Can't remember his name offhand. Anybody?

[F430murci]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

I missed your fly by wire theory. What post number or where is it. Like to read.

Just humor me for the moment. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but it was something like a short climb at 6,000 to 9,000 fpm followed by a vertical drop ranging between 11,000 and 24,000 fpm with only a 61 kt horizontal speed.

This harkens me back to the late 70s and 80s. I used to get a fair amount of stick time in my father's 2 seat Pitts and his Citabria. My recollection is that if the elevator is in the up position during stall or spin, that would keep the place in spin or unable to recover, but it would also keep the plane at somewhat slower speeds while heading straight down. Would you also need to apply down elevator perhaps in non-aerobatic planes like a 320 to assist rudder. Variances in rudder inputs, AOA and how tight the rotation could account for the variations in speed. Speeds of 125 to 270 mph heading straight down or with horizontal movement of 61 kts seems like a spin to me.

With hydraulics, don't control surfaces basically flap freely in the wind if all hydraulic pressure or fluid is lost, i.e., failure on both systems on a 727 or all 4 on a 747 with fluid gone.

What happens to elevator with fly by wire if a structural failure cuts power to the control surface or elevator. Is it stuck in last position, does it center or . . .? If he initiated a climb, hit severe turbulence, had a structural failure severing power to elevator, what happens to elevator?

.

Think we're talking about two different things.

The CIA has had fly-by-wire technology for better than two decades. That's the fly-by-wire I'm talking about.

And I should not have labeled it as " fly-by-wire theory," rather, fly-by-wire suspicions. I have no theories.

I have qualifications as an air traffic controller, and some second seat time, but I would hesitate to answer your other questions.

There used to be a commercial pilot on TV. Can't remember his name offhand. Anybody?

Tywais and Khoasi fly commercial. My uncle was ATC in Memphis from early 70s until he retired a couple of years ago. He was in hospital with ulcers when PATCO when on strike so he did not lose his job . . .

No big deal, I wonder how reliable this leaked data is also. Khoasi seems focus on fact no May Day so something catostrophic or they had their hands very full for a short period of time.

[rickirs]

"So how could the plane fly without a weather report from the agency?"

Regardless of whether there was permission for QZ8501 to fly that day and time, planes don't fly themselves - pilots do. So the question is why did the pilot fly without ANY weather report during the harshest weather of the year into an area known for sever thunderstorms? And the pilot NEVER asked for a weather update after takeoff. Completely unprofessional behavior that cost lives.

Edited January 5, 2015 by rickirs

[outboard]

"So how could the plane fly without a weather report from the agency?"

Regardless of whether there was permission for QZ8501 to fly that day and time, planes don't fly themselves - pilots do. So the question is why did the pilot fly without ANY weather report during the harshest weather of the year into an area known for sever thunderstorms? And the pilot NEVER asked for a weather update after takeoff. Completely unprofessional behavior that cost lives.

maybe the pilot had a hard copy of the weather report prior to take off

maybe the pilot had his radio turned on and heard every other pilot asking for a weather report and the answer they got

maybe the pilot did not know he had to ask you what was considered professional behaviour seeing as he had 20,000 hours, or 2 full years of his life flying jets, but I am sure that the main result of this incident will be every pilot logging on to TV forums to ask rickirs (Age unknown, Birthday unknown, gender not telling) if they can fly a plane today

[HeijoshinCool]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

I missed your fly by wire theory. What post number or where is it. Like to read.

Just humor me for the moment. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but it was something like a short climb at 6,000 to 9,000 fpm followed by a vertical drop ranging between 11,000 and 24,000 fpm with only a 61 kt horizontal speed.

This harkens me back to the late 70s and 80s. I used to get a fair amount of stick time in my father's 2 seat Pitts and his Citabria. My recollection is that if the elevator is in the up position during stall or spin, that would keep the place in spin or unable to recover, but it would also keep the plane at somewhat slower speeds while heading straight down. Would you also need to apply down elevator perhaps in non-aerobatic planes like a 320 to assist rudder. Variances in rudder inputs, AOA and how tight the rotation could account for the variations in speed. Speeds of 125 to 270 mph heading straight down or with horizontal movement of 61 kts seems like a spin to me.

With hydraulics, don't control surfaces basically flap freely in the wind if all hydraulic pressure or fluid is lost, i.e., failure on both systems on a 727 or all 4 on a 747 with fluid gone.

What happens to elevator with fly by wire if a structural failure cuts power to the control surface or elevator. Is it stuck in last position, does it center or . . .? If he initiated a climb, hit severe turbulence, had a structural failure severing power to elevator, what happens to elevator?

.

Think we're talking about two different things.

The CIA has had fly-by-wire technology for better than two decades. That's the fly-by-wire I'm talking about.

And I should not have labeled it as " fly-by-wire theory," rather, fly-by-wire suspicions. I have no theories.

I have qualifications as an air traffic controller, and some second seat time, but I would hesitate to answer your other questions.

There used to be a commercial pilot on TV. Can't remember his name offhand. Anybody?

Tywais and Khoasi fly commercial. My uncle was ATC in Memphis from early 70s until he retired a couple of years ago. He was in hospital with ulcers when PATCO when on strike so he did not lose his job . . .

No big deal, I wonder how reliable this leaked data is also. Khoasi seems focus on fact no May Day so something catostrophic or they had their hands very full for a short period of time.

.

PATCO! Reagan showed them. I was a newbie, and a scab, and kept working (in what quickly became a miserable and dangerous work environment with outdated technology), my BIL, with all of two months on the job, picketed. He spent the next twenty years cleaning carpet.

This notion of "being too occupied" to not push a button that is right next to your thumb and say Mayday three times, is hard to swallow once. But it also happened with Malaysia Air. I don't buy it.

[car720]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Contender for most stupid post. AirAsia safety record is better than most. As for not having authorised flight time. Separate issue. More about self interest. I fly AirAsia OFTEN. Brilliant service. Please come back with sensible stats with sensible post. And yes AirAsia just overflew run way days back in phillipines. So did Thai airways few months back in bkk

I've put a fair bit of information onto this forum regarding Budget Carriers, P2F Airlines and other 'piloting' issues regarding Automation and so forth. I can just keep regurgitating the information over and over.

It's not up to me to educate the greater general public about what is going on in the industry but it certainly would be wise for people to start making informed decisions about who they are really riding with. Can't anyone see that the flight you are on is only as good as the 'pilot' driving the bloody thang?

Perhaps it's beyond some peoples basic comprehension that aircraft are complex pieces of equipment and their complexities keep growing with all this marvellous forms of wizardry and gadgets. The problem is when all this compoentry messes up and control is handed back to the pilots, it seems the newer breed of pilot is incapable of dealing with the issue of flying the aircraft. This isn't entirely the pilots fault, as airlines push Procedures about how much 'stick time' pilots get verses what time the a/c is on auto control. Then there's the issue regarding piloting experience where it's common to see guys get command with 5,000-8,000 hours and at the same time their F.O.'s are riding shotgun on some P2F scheme with just 800 hrs up their sleeves and so on.

It seems people doesn't recognise the importance of having a minimum of at least 2 experienced pilots watching over each other and less experienced crew forming part of a 3 person flight crew. Maybe people just don't understand the workload saturation that can occur during an emergency situation and think that one experienced pilot is enough, afterall, what could go wrong, the plane basically flies itself. Lol.

Putting accountants and bean counters in charge of issues that should be left to competent pilots with 'airmanship' was always going,to be problematic.

If you think I am the only one concerned with such a thing, then run along and check for yourself there's an entire squadron of former and retired pilots that have been voicing these concerns and others for decades. I am just one of these.

Large wide bodies commercial aircraft need to be flown by experienced crew who have had continual training and plenty of manual and continuing 'manual' flying experience. End of story. Of course, what is actually happening is the opposite to that and it's all driven Around saving money.

The Aviation authorities all around the world have dropped the ball, actually the ball was dropped so long ago, none of them can even see where it originally landed.

But mate, it was Air France (a good airline) with good pilots that went down in the Atlantic and what about QF32, an A380 with 3 captains and a co-pilot and a first officer. The captain is considered literally one of the best in the business. The plane is something else.

What is it the arabs say? Inshalla!!

[HeijoshinCool]

"So how could the plane fly without a weather report from the agency?"

Regardless of whether there was permission for QZ8501 to fly that day and time, planes don't fly themselves - pilots do. So the question is why did the pilot fly without ANY weather report during the harshest weather of the year into an area known for sever thunderstorms? And the pilot NEVER asked for a weather update after takeoff. Completely unprofessional behavior that cost lives.

.

Where did you read this?

Weather info can come from instrumentation on the aircraft, NOTAMS, PIREPs, and visuals. In the States, FSS, Flight Service Stations, issue weather reports.

Where did you hear the pilot flew w/o weather info? I don't believe that.

[Gillyflower]

On Saturday, I was watching CNN. An Australian , expert on something was being interviewed. It was just after they had sighted two very large pieces of debris. He said that he was rather perplexed. The measures in length fitted, but the width, not at all. He said that these dimensions fitted a double passage plane. The Airbus 320 is a single passage plane.

[Lex Talionis]

As I'm boarding my next flight I'll be sure to duck my head into the flight cabin.

Lex: "excuse me gentlemen but do we have permission to fly today?" < frozen smiles all around> "...just checking. Oh and one more thing: any changes in cruising altitude, I'll want some confirmation that they've been cleared with the tower. Thank you! < Cheshire cat grin> Gotta go find my seat in cattle class now."

^^^ (theater of the absurd)

[xygote]

F430murci,

at this point, with so many bizarre, unexplained incidents in recent history, I'm going with my fly-by-wire theory. Look at the manifest.

Why the questions about the passenger list/manifest? Is there something awry?

Reference?

Also, where is the link to the horizontal and ventricle(vertical?) speeds?

Cheers Aye.

[bridge2bridge]

I've also read that Indonesia Air Transport Ministry is doing an audit of all of AirAsia routes and possible 'unauthorised schedules' across all routes and has mentioned It might be possible to revoke AirAsia's licence in Indonesia.

From: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-04/four-large-parts-of-airasia-jet-qz8501-found-authorities-say/5998888

Plane was flying on 'unauthorised schedule'

Meanwhile, Indonesia's transport ministry said the AirAsia plane was flying on an unauthorised schedule when it crashed, adding it had now frozen the airline's permission to fly the route.

The transport ministry said AirAsia was not permitted to fly the Surabaya-Singapore route on Sundays and had not asked to change its schedule.

"It violated the route permit given, the schedule given, that's the problem," said Djoko Murjatmodjo, the director general of air transport.

"AirAsia's permit for the route has been frozen because it violated the route permit given."

He later added: "We are going to investigate all AirAsia flight schedules.

"Hopefully we can start on Monday. We won't focus on licences, just schedules.

"It might be possible to revoke AirAsia's licence in Indonesia."

Indonesia AirAsia chief executive Sunu Widyatmoko said the company would cooperate with the government investigation but declined to elaborate.

Why then did the Indonesian Authorities let it take off.

Someone STUFFED up.

Will be interesting to see the outcome.

Boy the Lawyers will be starting to line up.

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Anyone remember the Sukhoi Superjet that crashed in Indonesia? They were cleared by ATC to descend to an altitude far below the highest peaks in the area and ended up crashing into one of them.

I don't have the greatest respect for Indonesian ATC and I am a pilot.

Sent from my ASUS_T00I using Tapatalk 2

The crash of the Russian-built Superjet was largely caused by PILOT ERROR. The final Indoneasian NTSC report indicated that the crew ignored terrain electronic warnings and turned off the system believing it was malfunctioning. They were also apparently unaware that they were operating close to mountains easily identifiable in the flight topo plan. The flight crew was also believed to have been distracted despite flying IFR by engaging in the flight cabin with a potential aircraft customer.

[ZAKY]

The pilot should be jailed

[indothai]

License of a route has nothing to do with this particular air crash.

Ultimately, the air traffic controller has the authority to allow take off or re-route landing of aircrafts. In this case, the tower gave permission to take off, so it's not the pilots fault. The pilot does not negotiate license routes, this is done by senior management.

Once in the air, the pilot has FULL authoritiy of the plane, requests can be made to the air traffic controller, but it's still the pilot that has full authority once in the air.

I have a feeling that the Indonesian transport ministrary is just trying to deflect the criticisms from their last Malaysian Air snaffu.

[neverdie]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Contender for most stupid post. AirAsia safety record is better than most. As for not having authorised flight time. Separate issue. More about self interest. I fly AirAsia OFTEN. Brilliant service. Please come back with sensible stats with sensible post. And yes AirAsia just overflew run way days back in phillipines. So did Thai airways few months back in bkk

I've put a fair bit of information onto this forum regarding Budget Carriers, P2F Airlines and other 'piloting' issues regarding Automation and so forth. I can just keep regurgitating the information over and over.

It's not up to me to educate the greater general public about what is going on in the industry but it certainly would be wise for people to start making informed decisions about who they are really riding with. Can't anyone see that the flight you are on is only as good as the 'pilot' driving the bloody thang?

Perhaps it's beyond some peoples basic comprehension that aircraft are complex pieces of equipment and their complexities keep growing with all this marvellous forms of wizardry and gadgets. The problem is when all this compoentry messes up and control is handed back to the pilots, it seems the newer breed of pilot is incapable of dealing with the issue of flying the aircraft. This isn't entirely the pilots fault, as airlines push Procedures about how much 'stick time' pilots get verses what time the a/c is on auto control. Then there's the issue regarding piloting experience where it's common to see guys get command with 5,000-8,000 hours and at the same time their F.O.'s are riding shotgun on some P2F scheme with just 800 hrs up their sleeves and so on.

It seems people doesn't recognise the importance of having a minimum of at least 2 experienced pilots watching over each other and less experienced crew forming part of a 3 person flight crew. Maybe people just don't understand the workload saturation that can occur during an emergency situation and think that one experienced pilot is enough, afterall, what could go wrong, the plane basically flies itself. Lol.

Putting accountants and bean counters in charge of issues that should be left to competent pilots with 'airmanship' was always going,to be problematic.

If you think I am the only one concerned with such a thing, then run along and check for yourself there's an entire squadron of former and retired pilots that have been voicing these concerns and others for decades. I am just one of these.

Large wide bodies commercial aircraft need to be flown by experienced crew who have had continual training and plenty of manual and continuing 'manual' flying experience. End of story. Of course, what is actually happening is the opposite to that and it's all driven Around saving money.

The Aviation authorities all around the world have dropped the ball, actually the ball was dropped so long ago, none of them can even see where it originally landed.

But mate, it was Air France (a good airline) with good pilots that went down in the Atlantic and what about QF32, an A380 with 3 captains and a co-pilot and a first officer. The captain is considered literally one of the best in the business. The plane is something else.

What is it the arabs say? Inshalla!!

I know all that brother & it's one of my exact points about automation and young pilots......good lads In Their own rights but have FEKK all stick experience.....& now they are dead and they took a whole pile of folk along with them. My retarded pet rabbit with the missing leg would of got thing out of a stall.....and my point about QF, which actually had 5 experienced and good pilots working on the job & even they were COMPLETELY OVER SATURATED with tasks....so imagine some poor commander battling away in the left hand seat while the guy in the RHS with 1000 hours and 2 minutes real stick time virtually sits and wstches or taps away on his &lt;deleted&gt; Facebook page. 55555

There should be minimum hours required for all captains of wide body a/c (industry wide) & min hrs for F.O. (Industry wide) & there should be mandatory manual flying hours for each pilot. Where less experienced crew are PF, there should be another fully qualified hrs man sitting alongside.

Scrap P2F & execute the dunce that invented it.

Any airline that penalises a pilot for missing a slot or not proceeding with a sector should be shut down.

And there's other things I can't be bothered going on with....it won't happen anyway.

Never forget All this other crap started when these budget wonders surfaced....they were the catalyst for the present state of affairs.

Anyway......it's like pissing in the wind....seriously. There's guys on here moaning about meal choice and how much airlines charge for baggage and I'm tapping away on a phone trying to raise general awareness and couldn't possibly spell the entire 25 years of the disaster onto the tvf forum only to have some t w a t whose never been past the y curtain halfway along the tube tell me I don't know crap about it.

Anyway, commercial aviation should be getting safer with technology and the reason many of these silly mistakes are happening is they seem to have lost the plot and forgotten that no matter how good their computers are that experienced pilots will plent of manual flying experience will ALWAYS be needed for those important moments when the computers go offline. Theyve forgotten that and down graded the importance of capable, experienced crew and their focusing on cheaper miles and cutting costs, just so bozo on the south side of the y curtain can get his flight $100 cheaper.

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen.

Anyway, adios, enjoy ur ride folks.....don't forget to buckle up and enjoy the view as your plane is driven into, woops I mean over the canyon.

Not sure any of that rant came out well....never mind. Kiss my arse, I'm right jack.

[outboard]

I know all that brother & it's one of my exact points about automation and young pilots......good lads In Their own rights but have FEKK all stick experience.....& now they are dead and they took a whole pile of folk along with them. My retarded pet rabbit with the missing leg would of got thing out of a stall.....and my point about QF, which actually had 5 experienced and good pilots working on the job & even they were COMPLETELY OVER SATURATED with tasks....so imagine some poor commander battling away in the left hand seat while the guy in the RHS with 1000 hours and 2 minutes real stick time virtually sits and wstches or taps away on his <deleted> Facebook page. 55555

There should be minimum hours required for all captains of wide body a/c (industry wide) & min hrs for F.O. (Industry wide) & there should be mandatory manual flying hours for each pilot. Where less experienced crew are PF, there should be another fully qualified hrs man sitting alongside.

Scrap P2F & execute the dunce that invented it.

Any airline that penalises a pilot for missing a slot or not proceeding with a sector should be shut down.

And there's other things I can't be bothered going on with....it won't happen anyway.

Never forget All this other crap started when these budget wonders surfaced....they were the catalyst for the present state of affairs.

Anyway......it's like pissing in the wind....seriously. There's guys on here moaning about meal choice and how much airlines charge for baggage and I'm tapping away on a phone trying to raise general awareness and couldn't possibly spell the entire 25 years of the disaster onto the tvf forum only to have some t w a t whose never been past the y curtain halfway along the tube tell me I don't know crap about it.

Anyway, commercial aviation should be getting safer with technology and the reason many of these silly mistakes are happening is they seem to have lost the plot and forgotten that no matter how good their computers are that experienced pilots will plent of manual flying experience will ALWAYS be needed for those important moments when the computers go offline. Theyve forgotten that and down graded the importance of capable, experienced crew and their focusing on cheaper miles and cutting costs, just so bozo on the south side of the y curtain can get his flight $100 cheaper.

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen.

Anyway, adios, enjoy ur ride folks.....don't forget to buckle up and enjoy the view as your plane is driven into, woops I mean over the canyon.

Not sure any of that rant came out well....never mind. Kiss my arse, I'm right jack.

so basically you are saying that pilots don't have any qualifications to fly and the reason that this plane crashed was because the pilot with 20,000 hours of flying jets, including fighter jets, did not know how to fly the plane

I will knock out a quick E-Mail to the SAR team and let them know to not bother looking for the black box, neverdie (100 year old gender confused) from TV forums has solved the mystery

Edit : just got the reply to the email , they say Thanks but despite him being a top notch pilot and stuff and like the mostest knowledgeable person on earth and stuff , we will keep looking

Edited January 5, 2015 by outboard

[neverdie]

I know all that brother & it's one of my exact points about automation and young pilots......good lads In Their own rights but have FEKK all stick experience.....& now they are dead and they took a whole pile of folk along with them. My retarded pet rabbit with the missing leg would of got thing out of a stall.....and my point about QF, which actually had 5 experienced and good pilots working on the job & even they were COMPLETELY OVER SATURATED with tasks....so imagine some poor commander battling away in the left hand seat while the guy in the RHS with 1000 hours and 2 minutes real stick time virtually sits and wstches or taps away on his <deleted> Facebook page. 55555

There should be minimum hours required for all captains of wide body a/c (industry wide) & min hrs for F.O. (Industry wide) & there should be mandatory manual flying hours for each pilot. Where less experienced crew are PF, there should be another fully qualified hrs man sitting alongside.

Scrap P2F & execute the dunce that invented it.

Any airline that penalises a pilot for missing a slot or not proceeding with a sector should be shut down.

And there's other things I can't be bothered going on with....it won't happen anyway.

Never forget All this other crap started when these budget wonders surfaced....they were the catalyst for the present state of affairs.

Anyway......it's like pissing in the wind....seriously. There's guys on here moaning about meal choice and how much airlines charge for baggage and I'm tapping away on a phone trying to raise general awareness and couldn't possibly spell the entire 25 years of the disaster onto the tvf forum only to have some t w a t whose never been past the y curtain halfway along the tube tell me I don't know crap about it.

Anyway, commercial aviation should be getting safer with technology and the reason many of these silly mistakes are happening is they seem to have lost the plot and forgotten that no matter how good their computers are that experienced pilots will plent of manual flying experience will ALWAYS be needed for those important moments when the computers go offline. Theyve forgotten that and down graded the importance of capable, experienced crew and their focusing on cheaper miles and cutting costs, just so bozo on the south side of the y curtain can get his flight $100 cheaper.

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen.

Anyway, adios, enjoy ur ride folks.....don't forget to buckle up and enjoy the view as your plane is driven into, woops I mean over the canyon.

Not sure any of that rant came out well....never mind. Kiss my arse, I'm right jack.

so basically you are saying that pilots don't have any qualifications to fly and the reason that this plane crashed was because the pilot with 20,000 hours of flying jets, including fighter jets, did not know how to fly the plane

I will knock out a quick E-Mail to the SAR team and let them know to not bother looking for the black box, neverdie (100 year old gender confused) from TV forums has solved the mystery

Edit : just got the reply to the email , they say Thanks but despite him being a top notch pilot and stuff and like the mostest knowledgeable person on earth and stuff , we will keep looking

Not what I said....actually nothing I said was about that captain but it was in support for him.

Please try to keep up.

[outboard]

I know all that brother & it's one of my exact points about automation and young pilots......good lads In Their own rights but have FEKK all stick experience.....& now they are dead and they took a whole pile of folk along with them. My retarded pet rabbit with the missing leg would of got thing out of a stall.....and my point about QF, which actually had 5 experienced and good pilots working on the job & even they were COMPLETELY OVER SATURATED with tasks....so imagine some poor commander battling away in the left hand seat while the guy in the RHS with 1000 hours and 2 minutes real stick time virtually sits and wstches or taps away on his <deleted> Facebook page. 55555

There should be minimum hours required for all captains of wide body a/c (industry wide) & min hrs for F.O. (Industry wide) & there should be mandatory manual flying hours for each pilot. Where less experienced crew are PF, there should be another fully qualified hrs man sitting alongside.

Scrap P2F & execute the dunce that invented it.

Any airline that penalises a pilot for missing a slot or not proceeding with a sector should be shut down.

And there's other things I can't be bothered going on with....it won't happen anyway.

Never forget All this other crap started when these budget wonders surfaced....they were the catalyst for the present state of affairs.

Anyway......it's like pissing in the wind....seriously. There's guys on here moaning about meal choice and how much airlines charge for baggage and I'm tapping away on a phone trying to raise general awareness and couldn't possibly spell the entire 25 years of the disaster onto the tvf forum only to have some t w a t whose never been past the y curtain halfway along the tube tell me I don't know crap about it.

Anyway, commercial aviation should be getting safer with technology and the reason many of these silly mistakes are happening is they seem to have lost the plot and forgotten that no matter how good their computers are that experienced pilots will plent of manual flying experience will ALWAYS be needed for those important moments when the computers go offline. Theyve forgotten that and down graded the importance of capable, experienced crew and their focusing on cheaper miles and cutting costs, just so bozo on the south side of the y curtain can get his flight $100 cheaper.

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen.

Anyway, adios, enjoy ur ride folks.....don't forget to buckle up and enjoy the view as your plane is driven into, woops I mean over the canyon.

Not sure any of that rant came out well....never mind. Kiss my arse, I'm right jack.

so basically you are saying that pilots don't have any qualifications to fly and the reason that this plane crashed was because the pilot with 20,000 hours of flying jets, including fighter jets, did not know how to fly the plane

I will knock out a quick E-Mail to the SAR team and let them know to not bother looking for the black box, neverdie (100 year old gender confused) from TV forums has solved the mystery

Edit : just got the reply to the email , they say Thanks but despite him being a top notch pilot and stuff and like the mostest knowledgeable person on earth and stuff , we will keep looking

Not what I said....actually nothing I said was about that captain but it was in support for him.

Please try to keep up.

see i was confused with the bit where you said

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen

that along with your other bullsh!t ramblings makes it look like you are slagging off at modern day pilots abilities to fly a frigin plane, now you say you are supporting the captain, maybe you should read what you posted because it is you that is not keeping up with what you are saying

[neverdie]

^ well the captain had put in his hours......although one wonders what he was doing poking around in such a large cell.....maybe radar issue, who knows.

Glad ur happy having P2F & low ur pilots driving ur bus pal...go for it, eat ur heart out, plenty of airlines catering to ur needs.

Pull ur head in and get back to ur monkey.

[outboard]

^ well the captain had put in his hours......although one wonders what he was doing poking around in such a large cell.....maybe radar issue, who knows.

Glad ur happy having P2F & low ur pilots driving ur bus pal...go for it, eat ur heart out, plenty of airlines catering to ur needs.

Pull ur head in and get back to ur monkey.

so now you are back to saying the pilot was not qualified to fly and did not know how to fly the plane and despite him having been an air force pilot and had over 20,000 hour of experience flying jets , he should never have been trusted to fly the plane because P2f&low ur pilots,ur bus, ur heart, ur needs, ur head, ur monkey

please try to make up your mind as to what it is you are trying to say here , last post you were supporting the P2F&low ur pilot( &lt;deleted&gt; if I know what you are saying here but I guess you are referring to the pilot of the missing plane) and now you seem to be back to accusing him of being more useless then your disabled rabbit.

somehow you know for certain that he was flying through a big arse storm which still has not been confirmed by any creditable source ( Indonesian meteorology department putting out a report on what caused the crash before an Air crash investigation is complete calls into question all other information coming from that department in regard to this flight)

Am I happy to be flying on a budget airline? Yes for the length of flight to go from home to Thailand I find that them cutting the costs by not allowing me 50Kgs of baggage when I can happily get everything I need into carry on , not providing me with 3 meals that I will not eat, and not including a drink allowance to cope with what a football team would drink on their end of season holiday, I don't even miss the crap movie that I am missing out on. Admittedly I do find the seats to be very close together, being over 6' tall I do have to watch for the person in front reclining or my knees may inadvertently inhibit them and I do take tissue with me as I have found on a few flights it tends to run out in the bathrooms about half way through the flight.

of course according to you none of these things are how they cut the costs, they just pay a Bangkok taxi driver to fly the plane telling him it is just like a taxi, just press the meter button when you leave the terminal and it flies it's self

[tigermonkey]

I've put a fair bit of information onto this forum regarding Budget Carriers, P2F Airlines and other 'piloting' issues regarding Automation and so forth. I can just keep regurgitating the information over and over.

It's not up to me to educate the greater general public about what is going on in the industry but it certainly would be wise for people to start making informed decisions about who they are really riding with. Can't anyone see that the flight you are on is only as good as the 'pilot' driving the bloody thang?

Perhaps it's beyond some peoples basic comprehension that aircraft are complex pieces of equipment and their complexities keep growing with all this marvellous forms of wizardry and gadgets. The problem is when all this compoentry messes up and control is handed back to the pilots, it seems the newer breed of pilot is incapable of dealing with the issue of flying the aircraft. This isn't entirely the pilots fault, as airlines push Procedures about how much 'stick time' pilots get verses what time the a/c is on auto control. Then there's the issue regarding piloting experience where it's common to see guys get command with 5,000-8,000 hours and at the same time their F.O.'s are riding shotgun on some P2F scheme with just 800 hrs up their sleeves and so on.

It seems people doesn't recognise the importance of having a minimum of at least 2 experienced pilots watching over each other and less experienced crew forming part of a 3 person flight crew. Maybe people just don't understand the workload saturation that can occur during an emergency situation and think that one experienced pilot is enough, afterall, what could go wrong, the plane basically flies itself. Lol.

Putting accountants and bean counters in charge of issues that should be left to competent pilots with 'airmanship' was always going,to be problematic.

If you think I am the only one concerned with such a thing, then run along and check for yourself there's an entire squadron of former and retired pilots that have been voicing these concerns and others for decades. I am just one of these.

Large wide bodies commercial aircraft need to be flown by experienced crew who have had continual training and plenty of manual and continuing 'manual' flying experience. End of story. Of course, what is actually happening is the opposite to that and it's all driven Around saving money.

The Aviation authorities all around the world have dropped the ball, actually the ball was dropped so long ago, none of them can even see where it originally landed.

But mate, it was Air France (a good airline) with good pilots that went down in the Atlantic and what about QF32, an A380 with 3 captains and a co-pilot and a first officer. The captain is considered literally one of the best in the business. The plane is something else.

What is it the arabs say? Inshalla!!

I know all that brother & it's one of my exact points about automation and young pilots......good lads In Their own rights but have FEKK all stick experience.....& now they are dead and they took a whole pile of folk along with them. My retarded pet rabbit with the missing leg would of got thing out of a stall.....and my point about QF, which actually had 5 experienced and good pilots working on the job & even they were COMPLETELY OVER SATURATED with tasks....so imagine some poor commander battling away in the left hand seat while the guy in the RHS with 1000 hours and 2 minutes real stick time virtually sits and wstches or taps away on his <deleted> Facebook page. 55555

There should be minimum hours required for all captains of wide body a/c (industry wide) & min hrs for F.O. (Industry wide) & there should be mandatory manual flying hours for each pilot. Where less experienced crew are PF, there should be another fully qualified hrs man sitting alongside.

Scrap P2F & execute the dunce that invented it.

Any airline that penalises a pilot for missing a slot or not proceeding with a sector should be shut down.

And there's other things I can't be bothered going on with....it won't happen anyway.

Never forget All this other crap started when these budget wonders surfaced....they were the catalyst for the present state of affairs.

Anyway......it's like pissing in the wind....seriously. There's guys on here moaning about meal choice and how much airlines charge for baggage and I'm tapping away on a phone trying to raise general awareness and couldn't possibly spell the entire 25 years of the disaster onto the tvf forum only to have some t w a t whose never been past the y curtain halfway along the tube tell me I don't know crap about it.

Anyway, commercial aviation should be getting safer with technology and the reason many of these silly mistakes are happening is they seem to have lost the plot and forgotten that no matter how good their computers are that experienced pilots will plent of manual flying experience will ALWAYS be needed for those important moments when the computers go offline. Theyve forgotten that and down graded the importance of capable, experienced crew and their focusing on cheaper miles and cutting costs, just so bozo on the south side of the y curtain can get his flight $100 cheaper.

I bet you, you could pull a dozen old pilots in their 80ues and 90ies, throw them on a 777 & they could manually fly the thing to virtually anywhere in the world. Put some of these current day dipshits into a 707 & see how far they get..... THAT should have never been allowed to happen.

Anyway, adios, enjoy ur ride folks.....don't forget to buckle up and enjoy the view as your plane is driven into, woops I mean over the canyon.

Not sure any of that rant came out well....never mind. Kiss my arse, I'm right jack.

Your rants are completely true in a general context of commercial aviation today, but I don't see the relevance to this crash. Captain had more than 20,000 total hours and arguably may have had pretty decent airman-ship skills, although I remember several pilots in the Air Force who were terrible The FO had only 2,000 plus hours on type -- was this his total hours ? However to make your rant relevant, we need to know if Indonesia AirAsia have now or ever had a pay-to-fly plan or cadet trainee plan - as far as I know the answer is NO. The FO may have had excellent airman-ship skills, although I am dubious.

Further, we have no idea who was the PF ( pilot flying) at the time of the incident. We have no idea if the accident was caused/exacerbated by today's fixation on SOP's as a replacement for basic flying skills, although I'm sure that they didn't help.

Commercial aviation today is in sad shape due to the bean counters, but here is no evidence that this contributed in any way to the accident. It's not only the LCC that are in sad shape - it is virtually industry wide

It does no good to rant on about these things unless they are contributory to the accident, although I would feel more confident if I knew one SIM trained pilot who actually had practiced recovery from a full stall in a real aircraft, rather than recovery from a pre-stall in a SIM. Let's wait for some facts !

Edited January 5, 2015 by tigermonkey

[tigermonkey]

On Saturday, I was watching CNN. An Australian , expert on something was being interviewed. It was just after they had sighted two very large pieces of debris. He said that he was rather perplexed. The measures in length fitted, but the width, not at all. He said that these dimensions fitted a double passage plane. The Airbus 320 is a single passage plane.

Not another expert !!!!! Okay, so we believe him, and now we know why they haven't heard any pings from the "black boxes". They have not found the AirAsia aircraft -- they have found MH370.