Labour Government’s Bold Claim to “honesty with voters” Has Unraveled Quickly

[Firefan]

I, 36 male, single, not working in Thailand after lots of hassle and costs, obtained a 1 year visa extension based on investment(condo) last year. The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank. (but nobody ever lived there as bare-shell).

My friends at Sunbelt assured me that extension would not be a problem this year as I already had gotten the first extension and the condo was bought from Thai.

So I went for extension with Sunbelt lawyer, and sure enough - now it was an issue that it was 2nd hand, and spend hours at emmigration ending with talking (politely!) with the chief there.

He did understand that money had come to Thailand based on the old interpretation of the rules (any condo more than 3M Baht ok. Later it was ok as long as bought from Thai) and that I was therefore cought no matter what.

He said that he would "put in a good word" to the commission deciding on the extensions. I am now under the 30 day "under consideration" stamp and will on the 18th of August be told whether I can only live in my own condo based on tourist-visa stamps...

I know that there are alternatives - using a sponsor company, making company+getting work permit Etc. but they are all not "real" - forcing me to "bend" the rules. Even the visa-run race seems "wrong" to me as it have never been the intention that people should use tourist visas for longstays here.

Anyway; I will go there with Sunbelt lawyer on 18th of August and hear. Should I be declined my previous 1 year extension expired 14th of August so I will in theory be here on overstay, or have to leave same day... I presume they will give me a few days(7?) to leave the country though.

Cheers!

[percy2]

I, 36 male, single, not working in Thailand after lots of hassle and costs, obtained a 1 year visa extension based on investment(condo) last year. The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank. (but nobody ever lived there as bare-shell).

My friends at Sunbelt assured me that extension would not be a problem this year as I already had gotten the first extension and the condo was bought from Thai.

So I went for extension with Sunbelt lawyer, and sure enough - now it was an issue that it was 2nd hand, and spend hours at emmigration ending with talking (politely!) with the chief there.

He did understand that money had come to Thailand based on the old interpretation of the rules (any condo more than 3M Baht ok. Later it was ok as long as bought from Thai) and that I was therefore cought no matter what.

He said that he would "put in a good word" to the commission deciding on the extensions. I am now under the 30 day "under consideration" stamp and will on the 18th of August be told whether I can only live in my own condo based on tourist-visa stamps...

I know that there are alternatives - using a sponsor company, making company+getting work permit Etc. but they are all not "real" - forcing me to "bend" the rules. Even the visa-run race seems "wrong" to me as it have never been the intention that people should use tourist visas for longstays here.

Anyway; I will go there with Sunbelt lawyer on 18th of August and hear. Should I be declined my previous 1 year extension expired 14th of August so I will in theory be here on overstay, or have to leave same day... I presume they will give me a few days(7?) to leave the country though.

Cheers!

As you know I am watching your situation with interest.

Good luck , though you shouldn't need it.

When you buy a set of golf clubs and and an Elite card let me know I'm always up for a game

[Noel]

He said that he would "put in a good word" to the commission deciding on the extensions. I am now under the 30 day "under consideration" stamp and will on the 18th of August be told whether I can only live in my own condo based on tourist-visa stamps...

I am actually surprised you received the extension the first time around, as I thought it was clear that you had to buy directly from the developer to qualify?

You refer to "commission" above. Did the officer use that precise word?

If he did, he may well have been suggesting a solution to the problem...

[Sunbelt Asia]

I, 36 male, single, not working in Thailand after lots of hassle and costs, obtained a 1 year visa extension based on investment(condo) last year. The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank. (but nobody ever lived there as bare-shell).

My friends at Sunbelt assured me that extension would not be a problem this year as I already had gotten the first extension and the condo was bought from Thai.

So I went for extension with Sunbelt lawyer, and sure enough - now it was an issue that it was 2nd hand, and spend hours at emmigration ending with talking (politely!) with the chief there.

He did understand that money had come to Thailand based on the old interpretation of the rules (any condo more than 3M Baht ok. Later it was ok as long as bought from Thai) and that I was therefore cought no matter what.

He said that he would "put in a good word" to the commission deciding on the extensions. I am now under the 30 day "under consideration" stamp and will on the 18th of August be told whether I can only live in my own condo based on tourist-visa stamps...

I know that there are alternatives - using a sponsor company, making company+getting work permit Etc. but they are all not "real" - forcing me to "bend" the rules. Even the visa-run race seems "wrong" to me as it have never been the intention that people should use tourist visas for longstays here.

Anyway; I will go there with Sunbelt lawyer on 18th of August and hear. Should I be declined my previous 1 year extension expired 14th of August so I will in theory be here on overstay, or have to leave same day... I presume they will give me a few days(7?) to leave the country though.

Cheers!

Firefan,

The Investment Laws haven’t changed, just the interpretation of the laws by the new Chief. He has final discretion. I know the Immigration Lawyer New has worked hard for you and argued on your behalf, as well as yourself that it was granted before and you should be " grandfathered in" as this was a condo that was never lived in and when you invested in it, it was a NPL with the bank, this is why you were given at least have the 30 day under consideration visa.

Our professional fee for the renewal is 3,900 Baht. If you don’t get the extension of stay based on investment, the professional fee cost for our time and expense is free. I know you would be happy paying the government’s fee and our professional fee, let’s hope you are able to.

Otherwise, how’s the Thai Elite Card sounding?

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[percy2]

He said that he would "put in a good word" to the commission deciding on the extensions. I am now under the 30 day "under consideration" stamp and will on the 18th of August be told whether I can only live in my own condo based on tourist-visa stamps...

I am actually surprised you received the extension the first time around, as I thought it was clear that you had to buy directly from the developer to qualify?

You refer to "commission" above. Did the officer use that precise word?

If he did, he may well have been suggesting a solution to the problem...

I think FF point is that he has already had 1 x 1 year extension and is now looking for another.

I'd be surprised if the the officer did mean that , but you never know.

[The Coder]

The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank.

It's plain as day this does not qualify for an investment visa. Just because you got it to work once is no excuse to think they are obligated to keep bending the rules for you. It's your fault for deliberately proceeding into a gray area just like those who formed businesses to buy land because the letter of the law wasn't being fully enforced.

[percy2]

The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank.

It's plain as day this does not qualify for an investment visa. Just because you got it to work once is no excuse to think they are obligated to keep bending the rules for you. It's your fault for deliberately proceeding into a gray area just like those who formed businesses to buy land because the letter of the law wasn't being fully enforced.

Troll

[Firefan]

Sunbelt: Thanks - I certainly hope that I get to pay your fee as well as gov fees!

I am fully aware that no laws have changed - which is why we use the term "goal posts moved" in the header - I stole that term from you actually! Interesting enough the chief mentioned that there might be a LOSENING of the interpretation(and later law change-he mentioned a nre draft being worked on) at the end of the year - but will believe it when I see it. Have a chat with New about it.

Also highly appreciate your willingness to pay back the prof. fee should this not work out - it will at least cover 2 visa runs...

Noel: Commission: it is the emmigration-commission who has the final say in visa extension cases. They meet once per month (which explains the now 30 days "under consideration" periods). NOTHING to do with bribes - which is also clear if one reads my original post.

The law is actually NOT clear on it having to be first hand purchase - I have now seen 3 diff translations and they all differ as the Thai wording is not clear. I believe this also answers "the coder"s comments.

See ya all on the visa-run bus every month!

Cheers!

[Firefan]

Percy/Greg; yeah that Thai Elite card looks better and better. At my age it corresponds to $1800/year until age 50 (which I use as cut off even though not really comparable with the retirement visa! ).

1 Massage or golf game every 14 days corresponds to those $1800/year.

Now the alternative to obtain the investor extensions is to put 3M baht in gov 1 year time deposit at 5.15% paying about 4.4% after the 15% witholding tax. That would pay me 11k Baht/mth. I am just not sure tying up that kind of money at 4.4% makes sense, when I can see with my own eyes that REAL inflation is much more than that.

Elite card....hmmm...never thought I would consider it......but now....

Cheers!

[monty]

They did the same with my friend before.

5 one year extensions in a row based on condo (firsthand) of 2.6 million value, in addition with 500,000 Baht in government bank to reach a total of over 3 million.

On the 6th year extension refused (after the 30 days "under consideration" stamp, without refund of course), reason given that the condo has to be more then 3 million OR 3 million in the bank. No combinations. Five previous extensions were just waved away, with the remark that Bangkok decides, not them (Pattaya)

Received 7 day extension...

Had application resubmitted by proffesional immigration lawyer (first application including the 5 previous applications were done in person) with assurances everything would fine now.

On application again received 30 days "under consideration" stamp, and at the end of the 30 days again refused and given 7 days...

Then deposited another 2.5 million at the government bank to bring the total over 3 million cash, reapplied once more and got approved (after two 30 days "under consideration" stamps)...

[Sunbelt Asia]

The condo was bought 2nd hand from Thai bank.

It's plain as day this does not qualify for an investment visa. Just because you got it to work once is no excuse to think they are obligated to keep bending the rules for you. It's your fault for deliberately proceeding into a gray area just like those who formed businesses to buy land because the letter of the law wasn't being fully enforced.

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/ba...p?page=service#

Application for extension of stay of persons investing a minimum of 3 million Baht in the Kingdom

Required Documents

Evidence of transfer of at least 3 million Baht from abroad into Thailand. The applicant must be either the sender abroad or the recipient in Thailand of the investment.

Evidence of investing the transferred money after the transfer is completed in one or several of the following cases:

Deposit the money in a fixed account of a state bank (Krung Thai Bank, Government Savings Bank, Bank for Agriculture and Cooperative, Ratanasin Bank, Srinakhorn Bank, Nakhornluang Thai Bank, Housing Bank)

Buy bonds issued by a state agency or government enterprise. The bonds must be purchased directly from a state agency or government enterprise or an authorised dealer.

Buy an apartment or condominium at the price set and registered by the Land Department. Any kind of investment deemed beneficial to the country by the Immigration Bureau.

Conditions for permission

The foreign national must permanently possess the investment. If he wishes to change the kind of investment, he first has to ask for permission to change the kind of investment and may then change to a new permanent kind of investment.

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Immigrations own website does not say the Condo has to come from a Thai developer and be brand new. Before, if it was from a Thai person or corporation, was all that mattered. The goalposts can change, as it’s their ball, if you want to play, you must adjust to the rules or don’t play anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Noel]

Immigrations own website does not say the Condo has to come from a Thai developer and be brand new. Before, if it was from a Thai person or corporation, was all that mattered. The goalposts can change, as it’s their ball, if you want to play, you must adjust to the rules or don’t play anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

The above 'summation' is as close to the way things work as you can probably ever get; rules, specific rulings etc are not set in stone and precedent does not seem to consistently apply.

It does not even matter what info is included on 'current' websites, it all goes down to how the particular official(s) in authority interpret matters that day.

To be fair to Sunbelt Asia, have a look at this:

Very bad news. The goalposts have changed!

This morning we had a client rejected when he went to apply for the investment visa. He owns two condos and was well over the 3 million Baht requirement but they were NOT acquired from a developer and were acquired second hand. In the past few months, this did not matter as long as the condos were acquired from a Thai national. Even yesterday it was ok!

I don't know if attention has been brought to Thaivisa.com posts or Pattaya was asking for clarification and they research in Bangkok yesterday.

But the bottom line, the window is NOW closed in Bangkok as of today. We went ALL the way to the Chief. The ruling is NOW only investment visas granted on ....

1. condos purchased from a Thai company who has the objective as developer and the foreigner is the first owner of the condo

2. Fixed deposit in a State Bank.

3. Government bonds

We have another meeting on Tuesday afternoon. Anything changes, will let the Thaivisa readers know. But the odds are not high for a new ruling.

Congrats Firefan and our clients that made the window when it was open, for the others, we are trying to see if they'll open the window back up.

www.lawyer.th.com

The goalposts appear to have changed yet again in the space of about eight months, but that is just the way it is.

At the end of the day 'you pays your money and takes your chance', or something like that.

Who can you blame?

No one: the only certain thing in this area is uncertainty, so take future 'guarantees' from any advisor with a pinch of salt. All they can factually tell you is what has happened in the past.

Just be aware, 'rules' can be valid only for the time it takes an ink stamp to dry...

[Sunbelt Asia]

Immigrations own website does not say the Condo has to come from a Thai developer and be brand new. Before, if it was from a Thai person or corporation, was all that mattered. The goalposts can change, as it’s their ball, if you want to play, you must adjust to the rules or don’t play anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

The above 'summation' is as close to the way things work as you can probably ever get; rules, specific rulings etc are not set in stone and precedent does not seem to consistently apply.

It does not even matter what info is included on 'current' websites, it all goes down to how the particular official(s) in authority interpret matters that day.

To be fair to Sunbelt Asia, have a look at this:

Very bad news. The goalposts have changed!

This morning we had a client rejected when he went to apply for the investment visa. He owns two condos and was well over the 3 million Baht requirement but they were NOT acquired from a developer and were acquired second hand. In the past few months, this did not matter as long as the condos were acquired from a Thai national. Even yesterday it was ok!

I don't know if attention has been brought to Thaivisa.com posts or Pattaya was asking for clarification and they research in Bangkok yesterday.

But the bottom line, the window is NOW closed in Bangkok as of today. We went ALL the way to the Chief. The ruling is NOW only investment visas granted on ....

1. condos purchased from a Thai company who has the objective as developer and the foreigner is the first owner of the condo

2. Fixed deposit in a State Bank.

3. Government bonds

We have another meeting on Tuesday afternoon. Anything changes, will let the Thaivisa readers know. But the odds are not high for a new ruling.

Congrats Firefan and our clients that made the window when it was open, for the others, we are trying to see if they'll open the window back up.

www.lawyer.th.com

The goalposts appear to have changed yet again in the space of about eight months, but that is just the way it is.

At the end of the day 'you pays your money and takes your chance', or something like that.

Who can you blame?

No one: the only certain thing in this area is uncertainty, so take future 'guarantees' from any advisor with a pinch of salt. All they can factually tell you is what has happened in the past.

Just be aware, 'rules' can be valid only for the time it takes an ink stamp to dry...

These are the same goalposts from 8 months ago. Nothing has changed for new applicants. The new goalposts could be on the 18th... the opinion they would grandfather Firefox in, as they already had accepted him before with the evidence, it being a NPL from a bank and the condo was a shell when he bought the apartment.

With the two hours of persuasion to get a 30 day under consideration stamp, the fat lady hasn't still sung yet and we wait for the decision on the 18th. Something tells me though with this now being a public case, Firefox may find the fat lady has just started to practice.

We still have a chance and the odds are still better than hoping we win because the fat lady got laryngitis on the 18th. If the ruling goes against us, we know we did our best and we feel no one could of done better in having the committee at least be open minded and examine the facts. That will determine his fate, the Thai elite card, investing 3 million in a bank acct, visa runs every month or champagne on Friday. Here is to champagne.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Firefan]

Auch Sunbelt - are you implying that the facts/truth that has been posted would somehow now put me at a disadvantage? That was certainly not my intention. Should I ask the moderators to remove this thread!? Cheers!

[Sunbelt Asia]

Happy to report, Firefan got his renewal today on his investment visa!

Congrats to our Sunbelt Football member

Took a little work but we got it done!

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[lapamita]

HERE IS THE ANSWER,

i was recently at immigrtion, excactly same,,, all documents TT2, and and.....

answer NO !!!!

if you buy second hand NO

if you buy a new one from a construction comapany YES !!!!!

buy a new overpriced condo !!!!! and you get a visa this year ( next year who knows???

but you sure will loose money and make this influcend superelitepeople more rich...........

good luck

ps it was pattaya immigration

[JGA]

I purchased a second-hand condo (from a Thai national) over three years ago and received the investment visa with little hassle. I have renewed the visa three times already... the last time being March 2006. Was the new Immigration Chief there in March?

What should I expect when I go to renew in March 2007 ?

Changing the rules after-the-fact is certainly unfair, but there's not much that we can do about it except hire a professional such as Sunbelt to argue our case to Immigration. Next year, I don't want to be told that I have 7 days to get out of the country... leaving my condo, truck, motorcycle, and everything else behind (and then try to come back and live in my own condo on tourist visas). By then, it will be too late to get another type of investment visa (such as depositing 3 million baht), since this will be history on October 1.

JGA

[fxm88]

[deleted]

Edited September 14, 2006 by fxm88

[Firefan]

JGA; yeah I know the feeling!

But for now I am popping a bottle of champagne and celebrating that both Sunbelt and emmigration did good work for me!

Note that the price for renewal is only around 4000 Baht with Sunbelt - very resonable considering the stake in place for people like us (not getting renewed, and therefore no longer grandfathered).

Thanks Sunbelt for job well done!

Thanks to emmigration for understanding the situation and grandfathering us investors in.

Cheers! (in bubbly!)

[wpcoe]

You know, I'm starting to get a BETTER feeling about the officials at the Immigrations bureau. It does seem that they try to do The Right Thing.

They seem to have been caught with their pants down when the Bangkok Post and Phuket Gazette ran public articles about what, apparently, were works-in-progress about application of new interpretations of existing laws.

e.g. It was reported that Investment Visas were being terminated and that previous holders would not be grandfathered in for annual renewals. After continued discussions, it was reported that previous holders WOULD be grandfathered in.

e.g. It was reported that the "crackdown" on use of 30-day visa stamps would start on October 1, with all previous stamps being considered. After continued discussions, it was reported that October 1 will now be a "clean slate day" -- i.e. that visa stamps prior to October 1 will not be considered.

e.g. Obviously, Firefan's being grandfathered in to receive continued annual renewals of his visa.

Also, I see occasional anti-farang references to the recent suspension of approvals to build more "megastores" in Thailand. It was not purely anti-farang, it also affects Thai business interests. Central department stores also falls in that category and cannot build any more of their large stores until/unless the ban on megastores is lifted.

There are a lot of hot buttons being pushed, mine amongst them. I don't take it as a personal vendetta from the Immigrations folks in particular, or the Thai government or people in general. Often times, what is good for the large picture (in this case the large picture being the Thai country as a whole) sometimes causes very regrettable collateral damage. Using the megastore example: The Thai government lent a sympathetic ear to the mom-and-pop stores by putting in place the "temporary" ban on megastore construction. As a result lots of people (Thai and farang) may lose the the opportunity to shop in clean well-lit stores with non-negotiable fixed prices and a large selection of non-out-of-date goods. Was it the right decision? We can argue that until the cows come home. Conspiracists will say it was definitely a direct attack at farang interests, for sure. My hunch is that some sort of compromise will be worked out where megastores can still be built, though probably not with a carte blanche to be built anyplace they desire. My hunch is that this 30-day visa situation will also come to some sort of workable situation.

I think many (most?) of the 30-day visa runners have known in the back of their mind that they were treading on eggshells doing the 30-day routine. I'm one them. I don't like the change in implementation of the immigration laws, but the fact is, I knew it could happen one day. Now it has, and I need to adapt.

Thanks for listening. I am not unsympathetic to the folks who appear to be the "collateral damage" in the 30-day visa changes. However I am not so sympathetic to those who take nasty swipes at them when they air their concerns and fears. In some of the threads there appears to be animosity between specific forum members. That should be taken care of in private. Many confused and anxious people flocking to thaivisa.com for information have to filter through all that sh*t to get their questions answered.

My continued gratitued to Sunbelt, lopburi3, Maestro and others who continue to patiently provide level-headed information and advice to those seeking it. Bravo!

Let the flames begin...