Fury as Indonesia executes foreigners by firing squad

[sjjmmi]

....note to self...: when flying to Indonesia, do not carry 13kg of drugs.....

What would be a safe limit?

Just saying...

Zero sounds good

[MrWorldwide]

Typical Indonesian hypocrisy. Tommy Suharto gets little more than a slap on the wrist for arranging the murder of the judge who convicted him, the Garuda pilot who poisoned the human rights activist not touched, Abu Bakar Bashir arranged a series of terrorist attacks in which 250 people died ( 9 year sentence) ...but make ecstasy and it's death.

No argument from me - the obvious answer is never fly into Indonesia, with our without drugs. Or Singapore / Malaysia / Thailand / Laos / China / Vietnam - all countries with the death penalty for trafficking certain drugs. Might as well just stay in our home countries with that hanging over our heads, eh ......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_drug_trafficking

[casualbiker]

Found this in a news report :

" The plans for a new spate of executions come at a timeframe when the government is actively seeking to protect Indonesian nationals who face the death penalty overseas.

'If the death penalty is wrong elsewhere, it is surely wrong in Indonesia too."

That changes things somewhat. Bit two faced to say you can't follow your law's but we can follow ours!

If the Indonesians think it's acceptable to execute foreigners under Indonesian law then they should allow Indonesians to be executed under other countries laws!

Edited January 19, 2015 by casualbiker

[Nemesis7]

Each country has their own set of laws, why not to respect that if you are planing to visit that country? What seems to be so hard to understand here?

[simondan]

Drugs ruin lives. They knew that.

Drugs dont ruin lives.

People ruin lives.

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

Theyve been trying for over a hundred years with not much progress. Any product in as heavy demand as recreational drugs will always have a supply, even in brutal totalitarian police states like China.

They are just throwing good money after bad, money that would be better spent minimising the social and health costs of drug use (because that would actually do some good, as opposed to trying to stop the unstoppable).

[steve333]

Won't do that again will they?

[ukrules]

Found this in a news report :

" The plans for a new spate of executions come at a timeframe when the government is actively seeking to protect Indonesian nationals who face the death penalty overseas.

'If the death penalty is wrong elsewhere, it is surely wrong in Indonesia too."

That changes things somewhat. Bit two faced to say you can't follow your law's but we can follow ours!

If the Indonesians think it's acceptable to execute foreigners under Indonesian law then they should allow Indonesians to be executed under other countries laws!

See the article I linked to above which tells of the Indonesian government stepping in and directly paying 'blood money' to a Saudi family to prevent the execution of an Indonesian national.

There are many indirect and discrete ways they could have paid this money instead of making the payment public and direct.

[neverdie]

Drugs ruin lives. They knew that.

Drugs dont ruin lives.

People ruin lives.

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

Theyve been trying for over a hundred years with not much progress. Any product in as heavy demand as recreational drugs will always have a supply, even in brutal totalitarian police states like China.

They are just throwing good money after bad, money that would be better spent minimising the social and health costs of drug use (because that would actually do some good, as opposed to trying to stop the unstoppable).

Not trying to be rude but that is drivel.

Would you suggest Police in western countries stop trying to reduce speeding drivers or drink driving and just focus their efforts on better ambulances and wheel chairs or perhaps padded Armco railings on the roadside?

Get real.

[bobbin]

Drugs ruin lives. They knew that.

Drugs dont ruin lives.

People ruin lives.

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

NeverDie, you and I discussed this issue many years ago in a similar (tragic) topic. IIRC, we eventually politely agreed to disagree. Honestly though, your arguments have become more fundamentalist. A defensive posture perhaps, given that the winds of change they indeed are a blowin'. Your strategy is a failed strategy. Was before. Is now. People and our elected (finally) officials are no longer fearful of social or career suicide by openly expressing doubt about the current drug policies. Even Thailand is proposing more treatment and less prison time for drug offenders, who currently make up approx. 78% of the prison population.

[BestBitterPhuket]

All drug dealers deserves the death penalty. Time they start carrying out the sentences in Thailand too.

[samran]

The hang em high brigade.

Furious as unwarranted urine checks on Sukhumvit and unwarranted RTP harassmeny all of a sudden major supporters of the Indonesian justice system and holding an even more corrupt institution in high regard for their decision making

Amazing Thailand indeed.

[Jarearn]

That countries kill people for drug trafficking is very irrational, illogical, and frankly looks very silly to me. To place the blame on Indonesia alone for its inane use of killing as a deterrent even when the scientific evidence does not show clear evidence of such a deterrent effect*, doesn't seem correct though either, as one of the main key problems with the with drug laws today and their strangely severe focus on punishment and prohibition, which has resulted in much harm, danger, and death for users, and vast profits for criminal networks, is with the UN and its single convention on Narcotic Drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs

So it seems we have to address the problem more directly at its source.

The most dangerous drugs when looked at from statistics in the USA, are the Pharmaceuticals which are available legally, then is Alcohol, then is all the illegal drugs combined. Here are articles with some real statistics to back up that statement.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/26/prescription-drugs-number-one-cause-preventable-death-in-us.aspx

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfacts/alcohol/international-statistics.html

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/causes_of_death#sthash.uNe7qMzQ.dpbs

Since Colorado legalized Marijuana in 2012 the overall crime in that state is down and the homicide rate is way down: "These statistics are especially convincing considering the short amount of time that this drastic reduction in crime has taken place. In just one short year the number of homicides dropped by 52.9%. Sexual assaults were reduced by 13.6%. Robberies were down by 4.8% and assaults were down by 3.7%."

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/denver-crime-rate/#AIM6x71Jc7w3pyZf.99

Seems like good progress to me. Also consider that a large percentage of deaths from prescription drugs are related to pain and anxiety medications, if Marjuana were legal that not only would it cut the profits of the huge dealing drug companies, but it would likely cut the death rate from Pharmaceutical and notice that Marijuana has never killed anyone from overdose, ever. Yet in Malaysia they still kill for more than two kilograms of Marijuana.

Ecstasy, Ketamine, Magic Mushrooms, Cocaine, and LSD have all shown to have medical benefits too along with Cannabis. Yet rather than explore what benefits regulated use might bring, most countries still cling to a rigid authoritarian type of approach, which does little more than line the pockets of those who are successful at delivering to the ever-present market despite the risks.

http://www.livescience.com/41277-health-benefits-illegal-drugs.html

It certainly seems appropriate to me that we start taking a more rational evidence-based approach to drug control, rather than continue with the dogmatic, automatic, knee-jerk reaction type of legal framework that so many still seem to find so enticing, and which so many nation states under the guidance of the United Nations blindly continue to promote.

This message is to advocate that we take a more scientific approach to regulation and taxation, treatment and education, and of course a healthy dose of respectful acceptance of others behaviours if they are not directly harming others. It seems high time that we grow up as a species and start to act on scientific evidence rather than simply bow to the profit mongering of big pharma corporations.

*There is no convincing evidence to support the argument that the death penalty prevents crime more effectively than other punishments. The most comprehensive survey of research findings carried out by the UN� on the relationship between the death penalty and homicide rates concluded:

“[R]esearch has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment. Such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis”.

quote from: https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ACT51/002/2013/en/2efaa0f6-6899-459d-93e1-4bfe20004017/act510022013en.html

[LawrenceChee]

It's drugs and serve no purpose in normal life unless it is is medicinal

You drink alcohol ? Glass of wine with a nice dinner ?

Cup of coffee in the morning to 'Get going ?'

Like sugar ?

The difference in destruction of family life by drugs vs a caffeine rush is very very different

Can you get drugs in 7-11 vs a cup of instant coffee ? Why must it be bought secretly through dark streets ?

That alone tells you this is not a normal product aiant it ?

[hawker9000]

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Capital punishment is outlawed in most civil countries as it should be, guess we have a lot of trolls around from uncivilised places. Executions will never stop the hardened criminals from still committing offenses, look at statistics.

You're going to have to educate those of us who fail to understand how someone who's been executed can subsequently commit so much as a parking violation... What statistic is it exactly that deals with crimes committed by dead people? But only a troll would point us to non-existent statistics, so please share.

Some countries that permit the death peanlty: USA, India, China, Taiwan, Thailand.

Some countries where allowed by law but has not been the practice for ten or more years: Russia, South Korea, Myanmar

Read more: The Death Penalty Worldwide http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html#ixzz3PFY4P8kP

That answers or is in any way even relevant to the question.....how?? A-D-D? Some other disability maybe?

[neverdie]

Drugs ruin lives. They knew that.

Drugs dont ruin lives.

People ruin lives.

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

NeverDie, you and I discussed this issue many years ago in a similar (tragic) topic. IIRC, we eventually politely agreed to disagree. Honestly though, your arguments have become more fundamentalist. A defensive posture perhaps, given that the winds of change they indeed are a blowin'. Your strategy is a failed strategy. Was before. Is now. People and our elected (finally) officials are no longer fearful of social or career suicide by openly expressing doubt about the current drug policies. Even Thailand is proposing more treatment and less prison time for drug offenders, who currently make up approx. 78% of the prison population.

Hello bobBIn,

Yes. We will have to continue to agree to disagree, especially in this case where young smartA. Australians thought it was ok to gamble with the lives of so many by attempting to transport a reasonably large quantity of heavy drug to Australia for more death and destruction to be released on their unfortunately fellow countryman. They did it for money. They gambled and now they lost. Soon they will lose the main game and they only have themselves to blame.

This is not a case of $2 worth of pot. It has been alleged that both these two grubs were involved I. Previous importations of drugs.

No pity and as an Australian I completely disagree with the suggestion that they be transferred to Australia so that Australian tax payers can pay $1000 per week per prisoner to have them housed in Australia prison 5 star hotel.

I for one applaude the Indonesians, although I recognise what a grubby dung hole indo is, especially when one considers how they have handled various issues around matters involving Australians and Australia.

If Tony Abbotts govt pulls anything out of indo, I hope it's the millions and millions of dollars worth of assistance before anything else.

[neverdie]

The hang em high brigade.

Furious as unwarranted urine checks on Sukhumvit and unwarranted RTP harassmeny all of a sudden major supporters of the Indonesian justice system and holding an even more corrupt institution in high regard for their decision making

Amazing Thailand indeed.

What about the hang em high brigade members such as me who couldn't give a hoot about what the RTP were up to down in Sukhumvit grubs ville ?

There has never been any suggestion or defence that indicates that the 2 Bali 9 members were not guilty, in fact if anything these guys assisted I. The downfall of 7 other young Australians, some of which were to known to Police and could possibly be in the cateogry of having made a really bad mistake.....young and silly cateogry.

[bobbin]

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

NeverDie, you and I discussed this issue many years ago in a similar (tragic) topic. IIRC, we eventually politely agreed to disagree. Honestly though, your arguments have become more fundamentalist. A defensive posture perhaps, given that the winds of change they indeed are a blowin'. Your strategy is a failed strategy. Was before. Is now. People and our elected (finally) officials are no longer fearful of social or career suicide by openly expressing doubt about the current drug policies. Even Thailand is proposing more treatment and less prison time for drug offenders, who currently make up approx. 78% of the prison population.

Hello bobBIn,

Yes. We will have to continue to agree to disagree, especially in this case where young smartA. Australians thought it was ok to gamble with the lives of so many by attempting to transport a reasonably large quantity of heavy drug to Australia for more death and destruction to be released on their unfortunately fellow countryman. They did it for money. They gambled and now they lost. Soon they will lose the main game and they only have themselves to blame.

This is not a case of $2 worth of pot. It has been alleged that both these two grubs were involved I. Previous importations of drugs.

No pity and as an Australian I completely disagree with the suggestion that they be transferred to Australia so that Australian tax payers can pay $1000 per week per prisoner to have them housed in Australia prison 5 star hotel.

I for one applaude the Indonesians, although I recognise what a grubby dung hole indo is, especially when one considers how they have handled various issues around matters involving Australians and Australia.

If Tony Abbotts govt pulls anything out of indo, I hope it's the millions and millions of dollars worth of assistance before anything else.

We can talk about proportionality with regards to punishment, even if we accept that the Bali 9 are guilty. How many heroin traffickers are arrested every year world-wide? What percentage are executed, outside of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and now Indonesia?

40 years ago, these SEA nations that are so strict on drugs did not have these policies. Ganja and opium were part of their societies and enforcement was not a high priority. They all jumped on the bandwagon led by the USA, coerced in many cases by the offers of aid and the threats of withholding same aid.

Now the USA has 4 states with legal recreational use of marijuana and more predicted to join them next year, most importantly California. That would make the entire West Coast a Prohibition-free zone, at least as far as pot is concerned. Two months ago Congress passed a law forbidding the DEA from operating in any State which allows either recreational or medical use of marijuana. Last week, in a policy change, the federal government will no longer accept assets forfeited by people who were not even indicted much less convicted. The bandleader is changing his tune...

All of the proscribed drugs will eventually be removed from the criminal justice system. And if you don't like paying $1000 a week to house drug offenders, just stop arresting them.

40 years from now, if you were alive to read them, history books will show that your approach was, and is, a sad time for human rights and that you were on the wrong side.

[neverdie]

Weak people ruin their lives with drugs.

Governments would be wise to snuff out all life associated with drug production, drug sales, drug transportation, drug use.

Simple.

NeverDie, you and I discussed this issue many years ago in a similar (tragic) topic. IIRC, we eventually politely agreed to disagree. Honestly though, your arguments have become more fundamentalist. A defensive posture perhaps, given that the winds of change they indeed are a blowin'. Your strategy is a failed strategy. Was before. Is now. People and our elected (finally) officials are no longer fearful of social or career suicide by openly expressing doubt about the current drug policies. Even Thailand is proposing more treatment and less prison time for drug offenders, who currently make up approx. 78% of the prison population.

Hello bobBIn,

Yes. We will have to continue to agree to disagree, especially in this case where young smartA. Australians thought it was ok to gamble with the lives of so many by attempting to transport a reasonably large quantity of heavy drug to Australia for more death and destruction to be released on their unfortunately fellow countryman. They did it for money. They gambled and now they lost. Soon they will lose the main game and they only have themselves to blame.

This is not a case of $2 worth of pot. It has been alleged that both these two grubs were involved I. Previous importations of drugs.

No pity and as an Australian I completely disagree with the suggestion that they be transferred to Australia so that Australian tax payers can pay $1000 per week per prisoner to have them housed in Australia prison 5 star hotel.

I for one applaude the Indonesians, although I recognise what a grubby dung hole indo is, especially when one considers how they have handled various issues around matters involving Australians and Australia.

If Tony Abbotts govt pulls anything out of indo, I hope it's the millions and millions of dollars worth of assistance before anything else.

We can talk about proportionality with regards to punishment, even if we accept that the Bali 9 are guilty. How many heroin traffickers are arrested every year world-wide? What percentage are executed, outside of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and now Indonesia?

40 years ago, these SEA nations that are so strict on drugs did not have these policies. Ganja and opium were part of their societies and enforcement was not a high priority. They all jumped on the bandwagon led by the USA, coerced in many cases by the offers of aid and the threats of withholding same aid.

Now the USA has 4 states with legal recreational use of marijuana and more predicted to join them next year, most importantly California. That would make the entire West Coast a Prohibition-free zone, at least as far as pot is concerned. Two months ago Congress passed a law forbidding the DEA from operating in any State which allows either recreational or medical use of marijuana. Last week, in a policy change, the federal government will no longer accept assets forfeited by people who were not even indicted much less convicted. The bandleader is changing his tune...

All of the proscribed drugs will eventually be removed from the criminal justice system. And if you don't like paying $1000 a week to house drug offenders, just stop arresting them.

40 years from now, if you were alive to read them, history books will show that your approach was, and is, a sad time for human rights and that you were on the wrong side.

I'm interested Bob, in the world you describe there seems to be no social issues with use and abuse of these drugs.

As for the 40 year thing I will have to take your word for it, I won't be around to see the mess created thankfully.

[seedy]

Why must it be bought secretly through dark streets ?

Why indeed ?

[seedy]

Face the Facts ...

Government looks on you as a tax generating machine. Nothing more.

If it cared for its citizens it would spend more on health and social services than on the army and the police.

The War on Drugs is a Business - first, last and always. It's only aim is to make money.

Sounds like the war on drugs and the drug traffickers are two sides of the same coin doesn't it ?

The rest of the world jumps on the USA war on drugs for the same reason - to make money.

And no - I do not use drugs. Over 20 years clean and sober.

Which is why I think I have a better understanding than the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant people who spout outdated and plainly wrong ideas based on their gut feelings, with no experience of their own other than what they watch on TV or read in the paper.

[LawrenceChee]

Being clean and sober is great thing and we respect you for that

However when you walk into a country with the intention to be a trafficker and ignore all the signs that are big plain and in red is unfortunately a different scenario

A cleaned up user is different from a trafficker ....we are not bigots and believe in a matter of choice

There must be a good medical or personal reason why you decided personally for yourself to be clean and sober

No drugs availability means less worries about healthcare taxation and broken families

So I support a tougher sentence to ensure drugs do not flow in easily to a country

[casualbiker]

Face the Facts ...

Government looks on you as a tax generating machine. Nothing more.

If it cared for its citizens it would spend more on health and social services than on the army and the police.

The War on Drugs is a Business - first, last and always. It's only aim is to make money.

Sounds like the war on drugs and the drug traffickers are two sides of the same coin doesn't it ?

The rest of the world jumps on the USA war on drugs for the same reason - to make money.

And no - I do not use drugs. Over 20 years clean and sober.

Which is why I think I have a better understanding than the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant people who spout outdated and plainly wrong ideas based on their gut feelings, with no experience of their own other than what they watch on TV or read in the paper.

So according to your own posts being "clean and sober" means you don't drink alcohol, coffee or digest sugar... well done!

Or does it mean that 21 years ago you were a raging drug addict?

[seedy]

Or does it mean that 21 years ago you were a raging drug addict?

Yes

[bobbin]

I'm interested Bob, in the world you describe there seems to be no social issues with use and abuse of these drugs.

As for the 40 year thing I will have to take your word for it, I won't be around to see the mess created thankfully.

Of course there will be social issues. But they will pale in comparison to the social carnage that has resulted from the Prohibition Policy.

But... there will no longer be millions of criminalized people. There will be no drug cartels, except the legal and taxed corporations that arise in the marijuana business. For the pharmaceutical drugs, they will be produced, profitably, by the current pharmaceutical corporations. There will be no adulteration, thus improved safety. Perhaps "lite" versions will become available.

There will be no gang-related violence related to the drug business. In fact, I would expect that the gangs, as with the glorified multi-national versions, will, for the most part, fade away through non-significance.

Last but not least, we can not realistically expect to save everyone from themselves. There will be casualties, as there are with alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs and gambling. But..... There will be ample funds available for education and treatment options, due to the savings from no longer prosecuting the drug war, and also the tax revenue available to the State.

On the 40 year thing, I won't be here either, so there is no fear I'll be saying "I told you so!"

[neverdie]

I'm interested Bob, in the world you describe there seems to be no social issues with use and abuse of these drugs.

As for the 40 year thing I will have to take your word for it, I won't be around to see the mess created thankfully.

Of course there will be social issues. But they will pale in comparison to the social carnage that has resulted from the Prohibition Policy.

But... there will no longer be millions of criminalized people. There will be no drug cartels, except the legal and taxed corporations that arise in the marijuana business. For the pharmaceutical drugs, they will be produced, profitably, by the current pharmaceutical corporations. There will be no adulteration, thus improved safety. Perhaps "lite" versions will become available.

There will be no gang-related violence related to the drug business. In fact, I would expect that the gangs, as with the glorified multi-national versions, will, for the most part, fade away through non-significance.

Last but not least, we can not realistically expect to save everyone from themselves. There will be casualties, as there are with alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs and gambling. But..... There will be ample funds available for education and treatment options, due to the savings from no longer prosecuting the drug war, and also the tax revenue available to the State.

On the 40 year thing, I won't be here either, so there is no fear I'll be saying "I told you so!"

How do you know all this? How can you be so sure?

Surely it's not just guess work ?

What are next weeks lottery numbers?

[neverdie]

Which is why I think I have a better understanding than the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant people who spout outdated and plainly wrong ideas based on their gut feelings, with no experience of their own other than what they watch on TV or read in the paper.

Really? So anyone with an opposing view to yours is automatically in the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant category and obviously also without any experience. Interesting.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't have a lot of compassion, but I do think the death penalty is too heavy for drug smugglers. I used to be a little less compassionate, but I now know 1 person who is sitting on death row in Indonesia. She was only an acquaintance, but I feel for her husband and children.

I agree. I understand that the smugglers know the risks, but millions of rapists are spared the death penalty and - IMO - drug smuggling is a far less serious crime. As far as I am concerned, most drugs should be decriminalized and the customers should be responsible for themselves.

[seedy]

Really? So anyone with an opposing view to yours is automatically in the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant category and obviously also without any experience. Interesting.

Not what I said - I was replying to the posts I have read on this topic.

[neverdie]

Really? So anyone with an opposing view to yours is automatically in the bigoted, arrogant, ignorant category and obviously also without any experience. Interesting.

Not what I said - I was replying to the posts I have read on this topic.

So you assume anyone that's already made a post that you disagree with here, they're all those things.

How can you know that nobody else has any experience with drugs, whatsoever based on what you are saying above.

For example, I've had more than my fair share of experience but in a completely different cateogry to you. So I'm automatically all those things in your eyes?

[MrWorldwide]

The financial aid is designed to make peace with the moderates in Indonesia who are prepared to accept - albeit grudgingly - that Australia sent troops to Afghanistan and joined the US in their ill-fated 'war on terror' as part of Canberra's efforts to keep the US on side while still making smiley faces in Beijing. Obama has given the 'America has no better friend than <insert country here>' speech in several countries that I'm aware of, but when he gave that same speech in Canberra the media lapped it up. China and Indonesia remain whipping boys for that same media pack, and I have little doubt that they will have a field day when Chan and Sukumaran are executed.

Diplomacy is 90% utter BS, and everyone involved knows it, but if the Australian government is prepared to pump billions into the war on terror they can afford to spend a few million to educate Indonesians in something other than extremist Islamist dogma. Any Australian who is unhappy with the dispersal of funds in Indonesia should be raising this via their local member - good luck with that.

http://www.grminternational.com/projects/australias_education_partnership_with_indonesia_ausaid_performance_oversigh

The hardliners will always hate Australians - the first Bali bombing took place long before we sent troops to Afghanistan - but radicalizing more Indonesians doesnt seem like the way forward : I guess time will tell if I'm simply being naive. I have little doubt that the majority of Australians will wear an 'Asian' face by 2150 but that doesnt mean it will be a Malay-Indonesian face .....