West speeding towards point of no return with Russia: Opinion

[Thongkorn]

It is my opinion that the Westerners have been asking, no: begging, for a war with Russia for ages. It is through their contempt and humiliation of Russian nationals. One can not simply say "beat you Russian" to a man's face without expecting a war. As much as I hate Putin as the president it looks to me that he is doing something right in firing up this mud pit of hell called Donbass.

I hope that it will not be long, rather months than years, for NATO forces to get involved. Russia has problems too. Specifically violent idiots ready to fill the rebel ranks. Have you read any accounts of what their so called army and its methods are like? Some of them wear real uniforms and this helps fan the illusions that the reg Russian army is involved. It further serves the purpose of sucking the NATO in ASAP.

I don't think the conflict will spill over to Russian territory. But if it does all ya all are free to think that Russia is not prepared hardware-wise. No one knows, really. Many of those hi tech toys that the Russian mil has have never been battle tested. Russians design one effective weapon and mass produce it in infinite quantities while NATO presents an assortment like wartime is same as shopping in a supermarket.

Good luck pounding the dirt, my Western comrades!

you do not know anything about The EU hardware as you call it. quality is better than quantity. I know of one ship alone in the British navy that can track and engage 800

targets simultaneously. there are a few of these ships around. but only one country has them and its in the West.

[JohnDodd]

Most posts full of main stream media narrative......There are none so blind..........

[phrodan]

It is my opinion that the Westerners have been asking, no: begging, for a war with Russia for ages. It is through their contempt and humiliation of Russian nationals. One can not simply say "beat you Russian" to a man's face without expecting a war. As much as I hate Putin as the president it looks to me that he is doing something right in firing up this mud pit of hell called Donbass.

I hope that it will not be long, rather months than years, for NATO forces to get involved. Russia has problems too. Specifically violent idiots ready to fill the rebel ranks. Have you read any accounts of what their so called army and its methods are like? Some of them wear real uniforms and this helps fan the illusions that the reg Russian army is involved. It further serves the purpose of sucking the NATO in ASAP.

I don't think the conflict will spill over to Russian territory. But if it does all ya all are free to think that Russia is not prepared hardware-wise. No one knows, really. Many of those hi tech toys that the Russian mil has have never been battle tested. Russians design one effective weapon and mass produce it in infinite quantities while NATO presents an assortment like wartime is same as shopping in a supermarket.

Good luck pounding the dirt, my Western comrades!

Laughable

[lovetotravel]

Most posts full of main stream media narrative......There are none so blind..........

Main stream narrative sometimes contains some very good information. Best to look at all sources and then make a determination of what's right and what's wrong. But if all the main stream media sources are saying exactly the same thing, as determined by a variety of sources, then odds are they've got it right. Like this time. It's not like they are all owned by the same person, same company, same government, etc. They are from a variety of backgrounds. No collusion. They make money on "scoops".

[Choctastic]

It's not like they are all owned by the same person, same company, same government, etc.

They are almost there...

[F430murci]

Unlike Russia media, US media reports both sides, the Kiev position and the Russian and rebel position, and pretty much lets the reader choose for itself which is more credible. Heck, US media constantly goes after our on politicians and leaders which will get you a nice little vacation to the far reaches of Siberia or worse in Russia.

[Publicus]

It's not like they are all owned by the same person, same company, same government, etc.

They are almost there...

The post proves nothing as in 1980 something like 90% of the 90% were owned by white conservative male Republican Protestants while today we have black networks, Hispanic networks, Discovery channel and a huge number of diverse and interesting networks.

We even have Rupert Murdoch's Fox News and shrewd capitalist that Rupert is he sold his Russian media interests for $247 million before, as Murdoch put it, "they could steal it from me." Rupert has this way of putting things, as we so very well know.

Here's the new Putin Russian media law that have driven modern media corporations out of Russia to include their technology and their programming savvy, all to suit Tsar Vlad....I found it to be an interesting read.....Disney, Discovery, Springer, Hearst, News Corp, Pearson, Sanoma of Finland......

........National Geographic Russia, Esquire, Harvard Business Review Russia, Elle, Cosmopolitan, Popular Mechanics Russia, Playboy Russia.....quite the list.....

15 Global Firms Hit by Russia's Law Limiting Foreign Ownership of Media

Sep. 28 2014

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/507968.html

If you heard it in Russia, you can believe you heard it in Russia

[Publicus]

Good strategy.

Classic Russian.

The let's starve ourselves out of our minds strategy for defeating the foreign enemy.

Officials Suggest Russians Could Face Economic Crisis by ‘Eating Less’

"When a Russian feels any foreign pressure, he will never give up his leader," Shuvalov said. "Never. We will survive any hardship in the country — eat less food, use less electricity."

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, on Friday warned the West against trying to topple President Vladimir Putin and said that Russians are ready to sacrifice their wealth in support of Putin.

Shuvalov, who is believed to be one of the richest men in the government, said that what he considers the West's attempts to oust Putin will only unite the nation further.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/top-official-vows-russians-will-eat-less-for-putin/514850.html

[lovetotravel]

It's not like they are all owned by the same person, same company, same government, etc.

They are almost there...

You missed the point. Think globally.

I was in a hotel this past weekend and they had RT news channel. As I had nothing better to do for about an hour, I turned it on. Wow. No wonder Russians are so biased. All one sided stories and all trashing the west. Not ONE report was on Russia it self. One was reporting on the UK's proposal regarding Trident missiles. Saying how much they cost, how the country is hurting financially, how a few hundred protesters were representative of the entire country, blah, blah, blah.

If that was an independent news channel, they would have blasted their own government for massive increases in military spending, etc. But obviously, that type of information is not allowed to be reported. Again, no wonder the common Russian is so biased.

[F430murci]

It's not like they are all owned by the same person, same company, same government, etc.

They are almost there...

You missed the point. Think globally.

I was in a hotel this past weekend and they had RT news channel. As I had nothing better to do for about an hour, I turned it on. Wow. No wonder Russians are so biased. All one sided stories and all trashing the west. Not ONE report was on Russia it self. One was reporting on the UK's proposal regarding Trident missiles. Saying how much they cost, how the country is hurting financially, how a few hundred protesters were representative of the entire country, blah, blah, blah.

If that was an independent news channel, they would have blasted their own government for massive increases in military spending, etc. But obviously, that type of information is not allowed to be reported. Again, no wonder the common Russian is so biased.

No doubt. I spent my fair share of time of watching TV. It's crazy!!!

Russian television and media is so strictly controled that individuals such as Nalvany turned to VK in effort to voice political opposition to Putin and his policies.

Putin then instructed Durov to cease allowing VK to be used as a political platform or as a forum for speaking against Putin and his policies and asked him to ban Nalvany.

Durov's response . . . a picture of Durov flipping Putin off on his main page.

Shortly thereafter, Putin sent the FSB to raid VK's offices in St. Petersburg armed with automatic weapons. Durov, however, had already fled Russia, but his partners remained.

Shortly thereafter, Putin's main business partner acquired Durov's partners' ownership shares in VK in what certainly could be described as a REAL hostile takeover.

Putin now owns, controls and runs VK and VK is closely monitored.

Durov will never return to Russia lest he will take a long vacation to a remote area of Siberia.

Lol, at the idiotic comments that the West media is controlled propaganda, especially compared to Russia. Facebook is 20 % Obama is an idiot, the devil, a racist and etc. postings to the point is us annoying even if you don't like Obama.

[F430murci]

Oh, and to finish the above, Navalny was gaining in popularity, had a huge following and could have eventually challenged Putin in the polls.

So . . . Putin, in his usual fashion to all political opposition, had him arrested on trumped up fraud charges. It gets worse than that.

To punish Navalny, he sent Navalny's innocent brother to jail who had a wife, children and had nothing to do with Navalny's political stance. Navalny was willing to go to jail for what he believed. Putin knew it and sent his innocent brother to jail instead. Hard core.

[Pakboong]

If the press could prove Russian involvement, they would not have to use terms like "Russian backed Separatist".I checked out all of the photos from the radio free Europe sites as well as Reuters and Tass and plenty of pictures. Obviously, no Russian uniforms. If the Russians are there, they are not stupid enough to wear Russian uniforms and carry a Russian flag. I did see a couple of 'Separatist" who were wearing pieces of uniforms with some Russian markings but they appeared to be make shift attempts at putting together an Olive drab uniform.

The Hungarians sold Kiev a bunch of T-72 tanks which are still used by Russia but not the Ukraine. Kiev paid the scap metal price of $8,500 each probably in an attempt to prove Russian invasion. Anyone who would think Russians would drive their Russian marked tanks into the Ukraine is an idiot. If they are there, they are not marked.

Lots of command and control issues trying to manage 9,000 covert Russians. The mere statement that there are Russians involved is of course true. There are Americans involved but the nature of the involvement does not constitute an invasion. Are they operating as intact units or are they replacements, trainers, ect..? Americans love to use trainers as a loose term which means there are Americans involved. We did that with the Afganis in the 80's but we clearly were not training Afganis. They had no intention of fighting using our tactics.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

Of course we can read a coke can from space but there may be nothing to read. There are Russians involved, at issue is the number and what they are actually doing.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

That concedes a vital point, that Russia does not control Ukraine air space only because Russia does not want to control it. You don't say Russia isn't involved, the post instead says it's a matter of Russian choice not to control the air space over Ukraine.

If Russia took control of the air space over Ukraine then there'd be no hiding of anything would there. There would be Russian little green men on the ground and in combat aircraft overhead.

While it is also true Russia would not "invade" without first establishing control over air space, Moscow has not in fact invaded Ukraine has it. Moscow has infiltrated across the considerable border and it has infiltrated under the satellite and other eyes of Nato and before the eyes of Ukrainians themselves both civilian and military. Russia did insert its military forces into the Crimea which then had an overwhelming and "true" vote to return to the sacred motherland didn't it.

The fighting in Ukraine throughout last year involved large scale mobile operations carried out by large units of well organized, disciplined and commanded military forces....of each side. The fact reveals the presence of two state actors in the Donbas conflict areas of Ukraine, that of Russia and of the Ukraine.

Russian heavily armed, equipped and supplied combat units under skilled command are operating in the Donbas region while other Russian regular army combat troops are stationed at the considerable border. That's what Russians are actually doing there. Russians are using state military force to try to separate the Donbas from the Ukraine.

The Ukrainians have always hated the Russians and perhaps deservedly so. The Holodomor will not be forgotten any time soon. It is however difficult to be objective on the matter if we allow ourselves to choose sides. I would like to think that looking at this matter without bias is difficult to impossible. I spent my entire professional life treating the Soviets as the enemy but I would seriously like to think that experience did not make me stupid but, allowed me to look at this particular issue from an unbiased point of view. We(the USA) spent a lot of money painting the Soviets as evil. That propanda was appropriate to our cause at the time. It is what we in the US do. I guess being "Old School" on such matters makes me feel as if we are getting sloppy and careless in our recent efforts.

I keep asking myself who benefits and what is in it for us. When I use us, it means the USA. Publicus, you are one of the most knowledgeable on this forum but because I often disagree with your conclusions is simply good for the discussion. I am American and that puts me on the Ukrainian side of the disagreement by default. I feel as if I know what Putin is trying to do, not that I agree or disagree. I do not however, have any idea what Obama is thinking or trying to do.

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion. The shareholders involved will not tolerate Putin and BRICS and will spend vast amounts to stop him at any cost. I know it sounds like tin-hat stuff but again, it is my default position. As an American, I hope he gets stopped but I would like to see him stopped for what I believe to be the right reasons. The share holders of IMF actually believe that they pull the strings in all countries.

Ukraine is simply cannon fodder.

[F430murci]

If the press could prove Russian involvement, they would not have to use terms like "Russian backed Separatist".I checked out all of the photos from the radio free Europe sites as well as Reuters and Tass and plenty of pictures. Obviously, no Russian uniforms. If the Russians are there, they are not stupid enough to wear Russian uniforms and carry a Russian flag. I did see a couple of 'Separatist" who were wearing pieces of uniforms with some Russian markings but they appeared to be make shift attempts at putting together an Olive drab uniform.

The Hungarians sold Kiev a bunch of T-72 tanks which are still used by Russia but not the Ukraine. Kiev paid the scap metal price of $8,500 each probably in an attempt to prove Russian invasion. Anyone who would think Russians would drive their Russian marked tanks into the Ukraine is an idiot. If they are there, they are not marked.

Lots of command and control issues trying to manage 9,000 covert Russians. The mere statement that there are Russians involved is of course true. There are Americans involved but the nature of the involvement does not constitute an invasion. Are they operating as intact units or are they replacements, trainers, ect..? Americans love to use trainers as a loose term which means there are Americans involved. We did that with the Afganis in the 80's but we clearly were not training Afganis. They had no intention of fighting using our tactics.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

Of course we can read a coke can from space but there may be nothing to read. There are Russians involved, at issue is the number and what they are actually doing.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

That concedes a vital point, that Russia does not control Ukraine air space only because Russia does not want to control it. You don't say Russia isn't involved, the post instead says it's a matter of Russian choice not to control the air space over Ukraine.

If Russia took control of the air space over Ukraine then there'd be no hiding of anything would there. There would be Russian little green men on the ground and in combat aircraft overhead.

While it is also true Russia would not "invade" without first establishing control over air space, Moscow has not in fact invaded Ukraine has it. Moscow has infiltrated across the considerable border and it has infiltrated under the satellite and other eyes of Nato and before the eyes of Ukrainians themselves both civilian and military. Russia did insert its military forces into the Crimea which then had an overwhelming and "true" vote to return to the sacred motherland didn't it.

The fighting in Ukraine throughout last year involved large scale mobile operations carried out by large units of well organized, disciplined and commanded military forces....of each side. The fact reveals the presence of two state actors in the Donbas conflict areas of Ukraine, that of Russia and of the Ukraine.

Russian heavily armed, equipped and supplied combat units under skilled command are operating in the Donbas region while other Russian regular army combat troops are stationed at the considerable border. That's what Russians are actually doing there. Russians are using state military force to try to separate the Donbas from the Ukraine.

The Ukrainians have always hated the Russians and perhaps deservedly so. The Holodomor will not be forgotten any time soon. It is however difficult to be objective on the matter if we allow ourselves to choose sides. I would like to think that looking at this matter without bias is difficult to impossible. I spent my entire professional life treating the Soviets as the enemy but I would seriously like to think that experience did not make me stupid but, allowed me to look at this particular issue from an unbiased point of view. We(the USA) spent a lot of money painting the Soviets as evil. That propanda was appropriate to our cause at the time. It is what we in the US do. I guess being "Old School" on such matters makes me feel as if we are getting sloppy and careless in our recent efforts.

I keep asking myself who benefits and what is in it for us. When I use us, it means the USA. Publicus, you are one of the most knowledgeable on this forum but because I often disagree with your conclusions is simply good for the discussion. I am American and that puts me on the Ukrainian side of the disagreement by default. I feel as if I know what Putin is trying to do, not that I agree or disagree. I do not however, have any idea what Obama is thinking or trying to do.

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion. The shareholders involved will not tolerate Putin and BRICS and will spend vast amounts to stop him at any cost. I know it sounds like tin-hat stuff but again, it is my default position. As an American, I hope he gets stopped but I would like to see him stopped for what I believe to be the right reasons. The share holders of IMF actually believe that they pull the strings in all countries.

Ukraine is simply cannon fodder.

Political tension should not be confused with civilian relations. Since 2014, things have gone to crap though.

The Russians and Ukrainians I know are heartbroken by this because they considered the other to be like like their brothers and sisters.

That said, Ukrainians are super pissed now, but more at Putin than anyone else. Russians generally don't harbor ill will toward Ukrainians.

Edited January 26, 2015 by F430murci

[lovetotravel]

Well put, pakboong. But I think it's much more complicated than just international banking issues. It's also to do with Europe's (and the USA's) desire to defend and protect NATO allies. Russia has annexed quite a few pieces of territory lately. Publicus can offer data on that, but these territories were once part of another sovereign nation's territory. And Putin has publicly stated he wants to return lost territories back to Russian control. Or at least have governments in place that he can control.

Being from the west also, I think it should be up to a country to decide it's future. Not outside influences. With that being said, if the population decides it wants to be associated with the west, then so be it. If they want to be associated with the "East", then great. You shouldn't be allowed to change that decision at the point of a gun. Lobbying is fine, but it has to be done in free and fair elections. Which never happened in the Crimea. Guns and violence were involved.

[Pakboong]

Well put, pakboong. But I think it's much more complicated than just international banking issues. It's also to do with Europe's (and the USA's) desire to defend and protect NATO allies. Russia has annexed quite a few pieces of territory lately. Publicus can offer data on that, but these territories were once part of another sovereign nation's territory. And Putin has publicly stated he wants to return lost territories back to Russian control. Or at least have governments in place that he can control.

Being from the west also, I think it should be up to a country to decide it's future. Not outside influences. With that being said, if the population decides it wants to be associated with the west, then so be it. If they want to be associated with the "East", then great. You shouldn't be allowed to change that decision at the point of a gun. Lobbying is fine, but it has to be done in free and fair elections. Which never happened in the Crimea. Guns and violence were involved.

You certainly may be right but I think it has everything to do with economics. The US seems to have chosen the path of relative economics. Not saying that is a good idea but simply a strategy to bring down the EU first ahead of any large failures in the US. Again, tin-foil hat stuff but the USA is protecting its position which is appropriate. We do however have the hands of the shareholders of the IMF involved in all of our business.

I think you will notice quite a few economic failures in the EU over the coming months. They just implemented QE strategies at one trillion euros. that is just the beginning. I think the US is fence sitting and I am not convinced that Obama is even aware of what is going on.

[craigt3365]

English language news sources only, please.

[craigt3365]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/

WASHINGTON — American soldiers will deploy to Ukraine this spring to begin training four companies of the Ukrainian National Guard, the head of US Army Europe Lt. Gen Ben Hodges said during his first visit to Kiev on Wednesday.

The number of troops heading to the Yavoriv Training Area near the city of L'viv — which is about 40 miles from the Polish border — is still being determined, however.

Things don't look good....

[Choctastic]

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion.

Agree with this. Putin understands how the game is played and is taking steps to counter. He's ousted political oligarchs; neutered the destabilizing NGOs; established BRICS; and was/is prepared to attack the petro-dollar.

This article is called 'Against Russia' – Essay from Putin's Favorite Philosopher http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/11/2324

'... we must vigilantly and soberly measure whomsoever we speak to and whomsoever we address, by measure of his sympathy and intentions with regard to a united, national Russia, and should not expect any salvation from the conqueror, any help from the partitioner, any sympathy and understanding from the religious seducer, any goodwill from the destroyer, or any truth from the slanderer.

Politics is the art of knowing your enemy and rendering him harmless.'

[F430murci]

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion.

Agree with this. Putin understands how the game is played and is taking steps to counter. He's ousted political oligarchs; neutered the destabilizing NGOs; established BRICS; and was/is prepared to attack the petro-dollar.

This article is called 'Against Russia' Essay from Putin's Favorite Philosopher http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/11/2324

'... we must vigilantly and soberly measure whomsoever we speak to and whomsoever we address, by measure of his sympathy and intentions with regard to a united, national Russia, and should not expect any salvation from the conqueror, any help from the partitioner, any sympathy and understanding from the religious seducer, any goodwill from the destroyer, or any truth from the slanderer.

Politics is the art of knowing your enemy and rendering him harmless.'

Putin knows how the game is played so well they say his reserve will be completely deleted in less than 18 months, 100,000 construction layoffs, no recovery in Ruble despite spending about $ 100 bn in reserves and citizens are getting hit with soaring prices.

Oh hell, we all gonna die sometimes. No reason to fret or get ourselves all worked up over Zerohedge articles. Cannot change it one way or the other and things always seem to have a way of eventually working themselves out.

[Choctastic]

Well put, pakboong. But I think it's much more complicated than just international banking issues. It's also to do with Europe's (and the USA's) desire to defend and protect NATO allies. Russia has annexed quite a few pieces of territory lately. Publicus can offer data on that, but these territories were once part of another sovereign nation's territory. And Putin has publicly stated he wants to return lost territories back to Russian control. Or at least have governments in place that he can control.

Being from the west also, I think it should be up to a country to decide it's future. Not outside influences. With that being said, if the population decides it wants to be associated with the west, then so be it. If they want to be associated with the "East", then great. You shouldn't be allowed to change that decision at the point of a gun. Lobbying is fine, but it has to be done in free and fair elections. Which never happened in the Crimea. Guns and violence were involved.

How come when a vote goes against the wishes of Washington, it's pronounced fraudulent and illegitimate and if it's in Washington's interests it's 'free and fair'? Ukraine suffered a violent overthrow of its democratically elected leader by thugs. These aren't democrats. The Kiev elections had little legitimacy because a majority in the East did not vote. Only pro-US candidates stood. Yet, you seem only able to focus on Russia's understandable efforts to protect its interests, by demonizing it.

With regard to the media. It flies in the face of reason to suggest western media are pluralistic and present balanced views. This same nonsense was claimed during the Iraq 'War' and it turned out that anti-war commentary made up only 3% of reportage. The other 97% was biased towards war. 'Balance' is a myth. Debates are always carefully framed and 'opponents' are controlled. You may think you are getting a balanced view but you are not. Opposing voices are set up only so they can be struck down. Fox feasts on this.

Balanced western media? The anti-Iran drumbeat went on for years. The anti-Saddam drumbeat, the same. The anti-Assad drumbeat, likewise. The Global Warming narrative went virtually unchallenged for 10 years. You rarely hear a pro-Palestinian voice. Now it's anti-Russia, alongside anti-Muslim. Whether Flu, SARS, holes in the Ozone Layer, Acid rain, TERROR TERROR TERROR... these one-sided campaigns are clear and undeniable. Yet, some argue the media are independent and balanced?

Mainstream news, current affairs programs, an army of PR firms and Hollywood are full participants in 'manufacturing consent'. Where do all these 'scoops' come from? With a government obsessed with secrecy instead of transparency, the only way to get information is via whistleblowers or direct from the White House or Pentabomb. Control those, AP and Reuters and you have your 'controlled media'. In battle, we see independent war correspondents are murdered and shot at. 'Embedded' reporters are safe. Control of the narrative is paramount.

Full Spectrum Dominance, writ large.

[lovetotravel]

Well put, pakboong. But I think it's much more complicated than just international banking issues. It's also to do with Europe's (and the USA's) desire to defend and protect NATO allies. Russia has annexed quite a few pieces of territory lately. Publicus can offer data on that, but these territories were once part of another sovereign nation's territory. And Putin has publicly stated he wants to return lost territories back to Russian control. Or at least have governments in place that he can control.

Being from the west also, I think it should be up to a country to decide it's future. Not outside influences. With that being said, if the population decides it wants to be associated with the west, then so be it. If they want to be associated with the "East", then great. You shouldn't be allowed to change that decision at the point of a gun. Lobbying is fine, but it has to be done in free and fair elections. Which never happened in the Crimea. Guns and violence were involved.

How come when a vote goes against the wishes of Washington, it's pronounced fraudulent and illegitimate and if it's in Washington's interests it's 'free and fair'? Ukraine suffered a violent overthrow of its democratically elected leader by thugs. These aren't democrats. The Kiev elections had little legitimacy because a majority in the East did not vote. Only pro-US candidates stood. Yet, you seem only able to focus on Russia's understandable efforts to protect its interests, by demonizing it.

With regard to the media. It flies in the face of reason to suggest western media are pluralistic and present balanced views. This same nonsense was claimed during the Iraq 'War' and it turned out that anti-war commentary made up only 3% of reportage. The other 97% was biased towards war. 'Balance' is a myth. Debates are always carefully framed and 'opponents' are controlled. You may think you are getting a balanced view but you are not. Opposing voices are set up only so they can be struck down. Fox feasts on this.

Balanced western media? The anti-Iran drumbeat went on for years. The anti-Saddam drumbeat, the same. The anti-Assad drumbeat, likewise. The Global Warming narrative went virtually unchallenged for 10 years. You rarely hear a pro-Palestinian voice. Now it's anti-Russia, alongside anti-Muslim. Whether Flu, SARS, holes in the Ozone Layer, Acid rain, TERROR TERROR TERROR... these one-sided campaigns are clear and undeniable. Yet, some argue the media are independent and balanced?

Mainstream news, current affairs programs, an army of PR firms and Hollywood are full participants in 'manufacturing consent'. Where do all these 'scoops' come from? With a government obsessed with secrecy instead of transparency, the only way to get information is via whistleblowers or direct from the White House or Pentabomb. Control those, AP and Reuters and you have your 'controlled media'. In battle, we see independent war correspondents are murdered and shot at. 'Embedded' reporters are safe. Control of the narrative is paramount.

Full Spectrum Dominance, writ large.

That's not true. Lots of elections have gone against the wishes of Washington. The big difference, all they did was talk about it. Russia actually invaded the Crimea and then setup elections that had NO outside observers. In anybody's definition, other than Russia's, that's not a free and fair election. Period.

Ukraine did have a revolution. But it was by their own citizens. Not by outsiders. Huge difference. And the candidate voted in isn't pro-US, he's pro-West. Again, a huge difference. Europe being part of that "pro-West" leaning by the people in Ukraine.

You seem to have swallowed the kool-aid of Zero Hedge and other radical news sources. Perhaps read some other sources for a bit to get a more balanced view.

[Choctastic]

You seem to have swallowed the kool-aid of Zero Hedge and other radical news sources. Perhaps read some other sources for a bit to get a more balanced view.

Predictable and asinine response.

Ok. Name some other sources that will give me a balanced view.

[lovetotravel]

You seem to have swallowed the kool-aid of Zero Hedge and other radical news sources. Perhaps read some other sources for a bit to get a more balanced view.

Predictable and asinine response.

Ok. Name some other sources that will give me a balanced view.

http://blog.debate.org/2012/08/24/a-quest-for-truth-a-list-of-the-top-8-unbiased-news-sources/

Similarly, rarely do we ever seek out stories and viewpoints that run contrary to our own. I, like anyone, am guilty as charged. As a self-professed non-partisan liberal, my default news source (and predictably so) is NPR, along with a handful of other blogs on feminism and human rights. I wouldn’t be caught dead reading Fox News, and I’m sure none of my conservative friends would ever even consider touching the Huffington Post.

I'm not a big fan of fox news either, but they do have some interesting news pieces. I try to keep an open mind.

[Choctastic]

Ok. Name some other sources that will give me a balanced view.

http://blog.debate.org/2012/08/24/a-quest-for-truth-a-list-of-the-top-8-unbiased-news-sources/

Well done for sticking your chin out.

This topic is about Russia but since the credibility of news sources affects most topics, I hope these posts will be allowed.

Any site claiming to be independent, that includes the BBC is immediately suspect. Not for nothing is it nicknamed the 'ZBC' (I am sure you can work it out). I could point to countless examples of bias and 'disinfo' over the years but these two opinions sum it up... http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2013/12/bbc-drops-propaganda-hammer-on-thailand.html

'The BBC is a notorious propaganda front representing not objective journalism, but the corporate-financier interests that sponsor it, and sit along side it on corporate-funded policy think tanks like the Chatham House.'

Media Lens calls BBC "the most insidious propaganda outlet today." (The links are worth reading) http://medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=777:the-comic-book-simplicity-of-propaganda&catid=52:alerts-2014&Itemid=245

I will look at the rest of your list out of respect to you but I wonder how many of them trotted out the Iraq WMDs lie?

[craigt3365]

Yes, back to the OP. Enough about the various media sites. Unfortunately for some, Thai Visa does support mainstream media sites and frowns on those in the fringe. If that is not to your taste, there are plenty of other websites out that that cater to that sort of stuff.

[F430murci]

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion.

Agree with this. Putin understands how the game is played and is taking steps to counter. He's ousted political oligarchs; neutered the destabilizing NGOs; established BRICS; and was/is prepared to attack the petro-dollar.

This article is called 'Against Russia' Essay from Putin's Favorite Philosopher http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/11/2324

'... we must vigilantly and soberly measure whomsoever we speak to and whomsoever we address, by measure of his sympathy and intentions with regard to a united, national Russia, and should not expect any salvation from the conqueror, any help from the partitioner, any sympathy and understanding from the religious seducer, any goodwill from the destroyer, or any truth from the slanderer.

Politics is the art of knowing your enemy and rendering him harmless.'

Great article in Forbes on how Putin's greed and thirst for power in March 2013 completely backfired and made mother Russia even more vulnerable.

This article reflects that Putin is learning the very hard way on how the game is played and his actions now are reactive, not proactive.

Putin's poor decisions, ego and lack of foresight has hastened the demise of his economy to point of having no option but to go isolationist. Accordingly, Putin's decisions and greed has speed this situation to the point of no return.

---------

The Four Horsemen Of Russia's Economic Apocalypse

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2015/01/21/the-four-horsemen-of-russias-economic-apocalypse/

[StasD]

Now Ukaranian-Russian border checkpoints are overloaded by people who do not want to be called up for military service in Ukraine. Rush to see Russian troops))))

by the way I studied a lot of CB and US history in university but i would never start to teach let say Thai or Cerman person about living in US or GB)))) But there are a lot of people who try to inform other about events which have read in facebook.

So Ukraine: 3 parts of it.

Galichina who really hate Russians, Poles, Jews....capital is Lvov(ex-polish Lemberg). they acted massacres of poles in Volhynia, neo-nazis

Malorussia- Kiev and some regions like Poltava, Sumy etc. It tryed to be indepedent from West and Ost but could not. The relations were like between brits and scotts

Novorussia - Donezk, Lugansk ... they are mostly Russians and they do not want to live with Galichna's neo-nazi together. there is civil war now

Ukraine was made by Stalin after WW2 finally (joined Galichna).

Ukrain was the richest part of USSR in 1992. They lost all during 23 years of indepedents thank to their autority and oligarches.

So we have the result now.

[Publicus]

If the press could prove Russian involvement, they would not have to use terms like "Russian backed Separatist".I checked out all of the photos from the radio free Europe sites as well as Reuters and Tass and plenty of pictures. Obviously, no Russian uniforms. If the Russians are there, they are not stupid enough to wear Russian uniforms and carry a Russian flag. I did see a couple of 'Separatist" who were wearing pieces of uniforms with some Russian markings but they appeared to be make shift attempts at putting together an Olive drab uniform.

The Hungarians sold Kiev a bunch of T-72 tanks which are still used by Russia but not the Ukraine. Kiev paid the scap metal price of $8,500 each probably in an attempt to prove Russian invasion. Anyone who would think Russians would drive their Russian marked tanks into the Ukraine is an idiot. If they are there, they are not marked.

Lots of command and control issues trying to manage 9,000 covert Russians. The mere statement that there are Russians involved is of course true. There are Americans involved but the nature of the involvement does not constitute an invasion. Are they operating as intact units or are they replacements, trainers, ect..? Americans love to use trainers as a loose term which means there are Americans involved. We did that with the Afganis in the 80's but we clearly were not training Afganis. They had no intention of fighting using our tactics.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

Of course we can read a coke can from space but there may be nothing to read. There are Russians involved, at issue is the number and what they are actually doing.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

That concedes a vital point, that Russia does not control Ukraine air space only because Russia does not want to control it. You don't say Russia isn't involved, the post instead says it's a matter of Russian choice not to control the air space over Ukraine.

If Russia took control of the air space over Ukraine then there'd be no hiding of anything would there. There would be Russian little green men on the ground and in combat aircraft overhead.

While it is also true Russia would not "invade" without first establishing control over air space, Moscow has not in fact invaded Ukraine has it. Moscow has infiltrated across the considerable border and it has infiltrated under the satellite and other eyes of Nato and before the eyes of Ukrainians themselves both civilian and military. Russia did insert its military forces into the Crimea which then had an overwhelming and "true" vote to return to the sacred motherland didn't it.

The fighting in Ukraine throughout last year involved large scale mobile operations carried out by large units of well organized, disciplined and commanded military forces....of each side. The fact reveals the presence of two state actors in the Donbas conflict areas of Ukraine, that of Russia and of the Ukraine.

Russian heavily armed, equipped and supplied combat units under skilled command are operating in the Donbas region while other Russian regular army combat troops are stationed at the considerable border. That's what Russians are actually doing there. Russians are using state military force to try to separate the Donbas from the Ukraine.

The Ukrainians have always hated the Russians and perhaps deservedly so. The Holodomor will not be forgotten any time soon. It is however difficult to be objective on the matter if we allow ourselves to choose sides. I would like to think that looking at this matter without bias is difficult to impossible. I spent my entire professional life treating the Soviets as the enemy but I would seriously like to think that experience did not make me stupid but, allowed me to look at this particular issue from an unbiased point of view. We(the USA) spent a lot of money painting the Soviets as evil. That propanda was appropriate to our cause at the time. It is what we in the US do. I guess being "Old School" on such matters makes me feel as if we are getting sloppy and careless in our recent efforts.

I keep asking myself who benefits and what is in it for us. When I use us, it means the USA. Publicus, you are one of the most knowledgeable on this forum but because I often disagree with your conclusions is simply good for the discussion. I am American and that puts me on the Ukrainian side of the disagreement by default. I feel as if I know what Putin is trying to do, not that I agree or disagree. I do not however, have any idea what Obama is thinking or trying to do.

My opinions are always tainted with international banking having a stake in every outcome. That is my bias that is a default position that I simply am stuck with. IMO there is a western bias against Putin because he dared to create BRICS. I am not saying I agree with BRICS or believe it will be successful. I simply think that ramping up BRICS to compete with the IMF is the reason we are having this discussion. The shareholders involved will not tolerate Putin and BRICS and will spend vast amounts to stop him at any cost. I know it sounds like tin-hat stuff but again, it is my default position. As an American, I hope he gets stopped but I would like to see him stopped for what I believe to be the right reasons. The share holders of IMF actually believe that they pull the strings in all countries.

Ukraine is simply cannon fodder.

You note the Ukrainians had always hated the Russians but then that easily can be said of Poland to the west and up to the Baltics, on further up to Finland and Sweden....let's not forget the Crimea peninsula. Russia has spent the past couple of hundred years as the 800 pound gorilla of the area, up until its collapse due to the Great European War and we know what in Russia we got from that. The KGB guy Putin and Putin's Russia is the continuation of it all and then some.

Russia's transition in 1917 from czar to totalitarian dictator was essentially seamless as Russia and the Russians had known no other way. Putin is Russia's 21st century new man, the guy who will allow democracy along with its constitutional elections until he loses one. From that point on constitutionalism and citizens voting becomes inconvenient unless the votes get counted before they are cast, as Stalin once put it.

The Brics are a photo op and a glad handers shop, all for one, one for all and every man for himself....no common currency, no money in their new development bank, no growth to their economies. Putin is getting only minimal assistance from China, even less in token aid and comfort from India, nothing significant or substantial from Brazil. Each of these three countries is intent in ongoing cordial or good relations with the United States/EU and all of the emerging market Brics are in economic decline, deflation, recession.

Russia through most of the industrial age remained firmly planted in the age of agriculture and now in the information age Russia doesn't want much of that either. Putin instead has turned Russia into a supersized gas station for Europe and China (petrol) and not much more, with very little to show his people for it. Europe is detaching from its reliance on Russia for 30% of its natural gas.

The former Soviet republics immediately joined the EU and/or Nato. One important former republic that did not take that route is Ukraine and they are paying the price for it. The populations of Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, the ME had no interest in following Putin to begin with, and now the populations further abroad the Brics especially see that Putin himself never knew where he was going with whatever it was that he'd been carrying, mostly on his shoulder.

Anyway, the comment about cannon fodder sounds too socialist workers of the world website for me to comment on.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Publicus

[LarryBird]

Game/Set/Match, Publicus!! What a post.

[F430murci]

Very interesting article about Russia propaganda in Ukraine conflict and the bs Putin's controlled media feeds Russians, most of which are hopefully smart enough not to believe.

--------

Ukrainian Students Call On Russian Counterparts To End 'Information War'

"Check what you hear, doubt what you see."

This is the advice handed out by Ukrainian students to their counterparts in Russia via a video clip aimed at tackling what is described as rampant Kremlin propaganda.

Students from several Kyiv universities have released an emotional video urging students in Moscow not to believe what Russian state-controlled media are saying about Ukraine and Ukrainians.

Russian television has accused Ukrainian soldiers of crucifying children and described pro-European protesters in Kyiv as rabid neo-Nazis.

"A war is going on in our country. Your soldiers and our soldiers are dying in our country, civilians are dying," the clip says. "We call on you to lift the information curtain!"

"We stand on opposite sides of the barricades, and between us lie kilometers of misunderstanding," it continues. "Between us lie tales about Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists."

http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-students-video-kremlin-propaganda/26817981.html