17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[EyesWideOpen]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

Well......... if those people tapping away on laptops in your backyard were making a

lot of money, then they would take that money they received from China, and spend

it in a variety of businesses you set up in your backyard, you would be a happy and rich

person...

[Jingthing]

I guess this raises the issue of working remotely in general. I know lots of people who get online style jobs - copy editing, writing etc, which can be done from anywhere providing you have a laptop and internet access. Many of those people have such jobs to facilitate travelling the world. Does it mean they need work or similar business visas for each place they visit?

I caught up on work emails while in Thailand last year, was I in breach?

Just shut up about it. Yes that's all OK and don't let the priggish purists tell you differently.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[steve187]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

Yes it bloody well is!

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

oh no its not, how can 'colour' be 'color', how can a 'tap' be a 'faucet' how can 'pants' not be something you wear under trousers

Edited January 23, 2015 by steve187

[John1thru10]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Are you under the impression they were paying income tax? Are you saying that is a victimless crime as well? If all foreign workers in Thailand failed to pay their taxes what would you think then? What if you were the Junta and you knew that the number was not 17 but 17,000 of 170,000, would that change your mind? Where do you think the government would turn for those losses if not prosecuting individuals for this offense?

Are you under the impression that a few guys teaching English over the internet in Thailand somewhere, ACTUALLY affects you or Thailand so much to be upset about?

It's just another propaganda attempt by the new leadership, to find any sad sack foreigner they can, and describe whatever small infraction they were involved in as 'destroying Thailand' as a distraction from their REAL problems, which are overwhelming, and which they have no intention of dealing with.

Edited January 23, 2015 by John1thru10

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Bad move.
They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.
They were taking nobody's job.
Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................
I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.
So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.
Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

PS2, point out a company that is doing the same service with work permits. I'd be very surprised if you could. In order for this company to get 17 work permits for foreigners, they would have to hire 68 Thais. Exactly what are the Thais going to do? I guess each foreigner could have a maid, bodyguard, and driver. The other 17 Thais could be administrative staff. I suppose that would work, but I don't think the company would be competitive then. It seems to me that perhaps Thailand is missing out by not encouraging this type of enterprise and passing the laws needed to make it work. 17 at ฿30,000 each per month. That's ฿510,000 a month that would be going into the economy, and no matter what PS2 might think, it is not harming anyone, because as a previous poster asked, what kind if work permit could they get, and the answer is none.

If all the employees were married to Thais they would need to employ only 34.

There goes your admin staff and bodyguards...........................

[wolf5370]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Are you under the impression they were paying income tax? Are you saying that is a victimless crime as well? If all foreign workers in Thailand failed to pay their taxes what would you think then? What if you were the Junta and you knew that the number was not 17 but 17,000 of 170,000, would that change your mind? Where do you think the government would turn for those losses if not prosecuting individuals for this offense?

How about allowing for WP for self employed native language teachers? - or self employed online work for clients outside of Thailand? - then they COULD get a WP and pay taxes. Your argument predicates on the lost income of taxes - money that was never there and could not be as laws do not viably allow for such a legal scenario. If taxes are wanted, then give an option for people to be able to pay them - rather than stoning people that cannot.

The client's were Chinese, which means Chinese money is coming into Thailand and being spent in Thailand (including VAT). This in inwards movement of money and includes entry into the taxation cycle. This has now been lost with no gain - immigration continue to go after soft targets because they do not understand the difference between the letter of the law and the sentiment of the law. Jeez, even their own ministers and immigration chiefs cannot make up their minds, with comments coming all the time that contradict what is legal and what is not. If they cannot agree, how are workers to understand?

And no, I am not in such a situation, before I am accused of being an illegal TEFL teacher.

[wolf5370]

Duplicate post

Edited January 23, 2015 by wolf5370

[aTomsLife]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

PS2, point out a company that is doing the same service with work permits. I'd be very surprised if you could. In order for this company to get 17 work permits for foreigners, they would have to hire 68 Thais. Exactly what are the Thais going to do? I guess each foreigner could have a maid, bodyguard, and driver. The other 17 Thais could be administrative staff. I suppose that would work, but I don't think the company would be competitive then. It seems to me that perhaps Thailand is missing out by not encouraging this type of enterprise and passing the laws needed to make it work. 17 at ฿30,000 each per month. That's ฿510,000 a month that would be going into the economy, and no matter what PS2 might think, it is not harming anyone, because as a previous poster asked, what kind if work permit could they get, and the answer is none.

I see your point. But I'm sure the Thai authorities are looking at this setup and assuming a Thai could've and therefore should've been running it. So in that sense, it was taking a job away from a Thai.

The teachers are collateral damage. Again, it's the business itself that was the problem. There are any number of Thai-owned language schools, which could be handling such work. And I'm sure that's how the Thais see the operation in question: as an unlicensed school, that probably also wasn't paying tax.

[rwdrwdrwd]

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......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................

I believe the comment was misquoted, or at least taken out of context. It was directed at tourists, not people gainfully employed by a company who isn't allowed to operate in Thailand.

Bit of a difference between checking emails and full employment.

Bet this will have the digital nomads having a rethink after all the claims that all is OK, especially in Chiang Mai................................

What like 'don't go and work illegally for a Thai company from their office and be paid by them in Thailand'?

These teachers were not acting in the manner of a 'digital nomad'. You say it yourself 'people gainfully employed by a company who isn't allowed to operate in Thailand'.

They would be operating in the manner of a 'digital nomad' if they were directly being paid by the Chinese customers, and being paid outside of Thailand. These people were simply working for a Thai company that happened to have Chines customers. There's a difference here.

Edited January 23, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Bangel72]

This remains an interesting area where there is often not a suitable work permit for semi freelance workers.

There are industries in Thailand that on one hand are being promoted yet at the same time there are blockers in place that limit how successful they will be.

The film industry for one is a growing industry that Thailand wants to be ahead of it's neighbors in attracting companies here but when they are looking for background actors and models, the chances of them having a work permit is rare.

Similarly with the travel industry, how many bloggers, reviewers, freelance writers etc are going to be able to get a suitable work permit even though they are in many cases attracting tourists and money into Thailand. I know someone mentioned above certain things are allowed but it still seems to be a very grey area.

Freelance teachers, mentors, one to one tutors etc are also much needed in Thailand but not all fit the work permit model.

In IT with have a growing number of IT nomads travelling and working, I suspect Chang Mai itself is a considerable hub for this.

This case may be slightly different from the freelancer as they seem to have been full time employed by a company.

Some work permits for certain nationals also have minimum incomes associated with them, the part time freelancer will often not consistently meet that minimum.

There is both a tax income and a potential country benefit here in almost all of the above cases, it may be worth the government looking to leverage from this opportunity rather than chasing down the likes of those quietly sitting on a beach writing about how wonderful Thailand is.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Bit counter productive, seems these guys were doing something that could be done from any country, kicking them out the country will not make jobs for Thais, they will just relocate their business, and not be spending money in the Kingdom.

Makes me wonder whether I should holiday in Thailand again, as I have a business and still need to run it even when on holiday.

Well, it would make me a bit nervy as well, but i think it's important to keep the detail of this in mind - 17 people working from one office - that's very different to a random individual working alone ?

[wolf5370]

Whether like it or not, law is law and they need to respect it. Also I guess nobody forces them to come to Thailand and work illegally. It is 100% their choice and responsibility. If somebody teaches Chinese in the US without proper visa, do you think the US immigration would just let you go?

Give me a break.

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Not the same scenario at all. They are westerners teaching English to some Chinese, in China, online from Thailand. Someone teaching Chinese IN the USA would be taking jobs of Chinese native language speakers IN the USA. Thailand has no native English speakers to speak of, and it is not Thais being taught in this story. Your implication is that there is a market for Thais to teach English to China - which is laughable.

Edited January 23, 2015 by wolf5370

[PJcm]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

We all agree with you and you of course are right. What people do in their own home working on the internet is also illegal,

As a resident for over 30 years I can tell you that this country isn't ready for the internet and all the business that can and will be done today and in the future. Instead of changing their laws and managing English teachers (something they can never agree on) they chose the most vulnerable, typical third world where bureaucrats administer the letter of the law on the ones with the fewest rights. It's what the immigration bureau does to the Burmese here legally in Chiang Mai, a source of ridicule and income.

[jabis]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

PS2, point out a company that is doing the same service with work permits. I'd be very surprised if you could. In order for this company to get 17 work permits for foreigners, they would have to hire 68 Thais. Exactly what are the Thais going to do? I guess each foreigner could have a maid, bodyguard, and driver. The other 17 Thais could be administrative staff. I suppose that would work, but I don't think the company would be competitive then. It seems to me that perhaps Thailand is missing out by not encouraging this type of enterprise and passing the laws needed to make it work. 17 at ฿30,000 each per month. That's ฿510,000 a month that would be going into the economy, and no matter what PS2 might think, it is not harming anyone, because as a previous poster asked, what kind if work permit could they get, and the answer is none.

If all the employees were married to Thais they would need to employ only 34.

There goes your admin staff and bodyguards...........................

The company name was BOI MAX something - that would imply Thailand Board Of Investment status for that company, and them BOI's have a different ruleset regarding WP's and thai:foreigner-quotas.

[aTomsLife]

Whether like it or not, law is law and they need to respect it. Also I guess nobody forces them to come to Thailand and work illegally. It is 100% their choice and responsibility. If somebody teaches Chinese in the US without proper visa, do you think the US immigration would just let you go?

Give me a break.

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Not the same scenario at all. They are westerners teaching English to some Chinese, in China, online from Thailand. Someone teaching Chinese IN the USA would be taking jobs of Chinese native language speakers IN the USA. Thailand has no native English speakers to speak of, and it is not Thais being taught in this story. Your implication is that there is a market for Thais to teach English to China - which is laughable.

The point is the business set up was taking away opportunities from entrepreneurs who are actually licensed to run schools.

[gandalf12]

You want to live in a country you have to accept their rules. Same the world over

[Dustdevil]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Yes--and besides, if you just want to teach English online, you can do it from your home country. I think too many backpackers have seen "The Beach" and think they can just show up and do whatever they want.

[gandalf12]

Whether like it or not, law is law and they need to respect it. Also I guess nobody forces them to come to Thailand and work illegally. It is 100% their choice and responsibility. If somebody teaches Chinese in the US without proper visa, do you think the US immigration would just let you go?

Give me a break.

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Not the same scenario at all. They are westerners teaching English to some Chinese, in China, online from Thailand. Someone teaching Chinese IN the USA would be taking jobs of Chinese native language speakers IN the USA. Thailand has no native English speakers to speak of, and it is not Thais being taught in this story. Your implication is that there is a market for Thais to teach English to China - which is laughable.

The point is the business set up was taking away opportunities from entrepreneurs who are actually licensed to run schools.

Has anyone seen the books for learning English that have been produced by Thai's in Thailand? They are not a bad effort but way below what is required. Mind you it is like a foreigner teaching Thai it is not a realistic concept

[Jim walker]

Its only 17 teachers out of how many English teachers in Thailand just take this 17 and make an example 30 years in a max security hard labour Thai prison that will stop them robbing the Thais out of a job and make these so called teachers think twice about illegally working in Thailand.

[rwdrwdrwd]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

We all agree with you and you of course are right. What people do in their own home working on the internet is also illegal,

As a resident for over 30 years I can tell you that this country isn't ready for the internet and all the business that can and will be done today and in the future. Instead of changing their laws and managing English teachers (something they can never agree on) they chose the most vulnerable, typical third world where bureaucrats administer the letter of the law on the ones with the fewest rights. It's what the immigration bureau does to the Burmese here legally in Chiang Mai, a source of ridicule and income.

No, we all don't.

Given the definition of work in Thai legislation, it is a massive grey area. The definition covers walking.

Given it's a grey area (which logically it must be, unless walking does require a WP), we can only work from precedents. There are no precedents for people that work remotely for non Thai entities and are paid outside of Thailand, and regardless of the outcome of this instance, it doesn't create one - these people were working for a Thai company and being paid in Thailand.

Edited January 23, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Zumteufel]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

You need a work permit to work as a foreigner. Here, in my home country, in your home country, everywhere.

Nobody's saying they're bad. They just happened to break the law.

[Doc46]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

They were committing a crime,,,they were breaking the law and given all foreigners a bad name by doing so, Hope they send them all back home.

[aTomsLife]

The point is the business set up was taking away opportunities from entrepreneurs who are actually licensed to run schools.

Has anyone seen the books for learning English that have been produced by Thai's in Thailand? They are not a bad effort but way below what is required. Mind you it is like a foreigner teaching Thai it is not a realistic concept

How does your reply relate to what I said at all, much less rebut it? No one forces language schools to use Thai-made English texts.

[dotpoom]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Teachers I know do it because it is their only source of income....sad really....they love to stay here and this is the only way they can do it. I'm feeling pretty grateful after reading this.

[freedom4life]

So they were teaching online courses to people in China.....no one in China able to do this?

Chinese in china are too corrupt to properly have this accomplished anyway...

[shaurene]

It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name.

I was wondering when you would pop in Jerry

[daoyai]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

The agricultural economy depends on it where I come from.

[wolf5370]

Its only 17 teachers out of how many English teachers in Thailand just take this 17 and make an example 30 years in a max security hard labour Thai prison that will stop them robbing the Thais out of a job and make these so called teachers think twice about illegally working in Thailand.

Yes that will do wonders for education in the kingdom - why not go the whole Maoist way and execute all teachers!

These people were providing a service for pennies, a service Thais cannot provide (just as a Brit cannot provide native Thai language, unless of course they are nationalised Thai of which there are far more than there are nationalised westerners in Thailand total). Cost to Thai economy - zero; Gain to Thai economy foreign income from both the foreigners home and the clients home (China).

[Phatcharanan]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

And your language is definitely 3rd class.

&lt;deleted&gt;.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Phatcharanan

[givenall]

Crime of the century