Mudcrab Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 This English teacher type posts are always good. All the "professional" English teachers snobbishly knocking the TEFLer's, and everyone complaining about the poor english language skills of the Thais after decades of English instruction by professionals. Wouldn't surprise me to see the headlines read:- "17 foreign English teachers arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally. Ten thousand legal English teachers in country wide investigation charged with fraud". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviss Geez Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 ......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................ Online isn't the issue, these are people working for a company in a large office with numerous other employees. They are not working from home online Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malt25 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class. "should speech no fluent english only broken english"... You'd be an expert on that. Can't you just have one more drink.... fall off your stool... & fade off into oblivion ???? Just hoping.....Cheers..... Mal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherOneAmerican Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Bad move. They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer. They were taking nobody's job. Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are.................. I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody. "They were not committing a crime," "I know, you can't work without a WP," Make up your mind. "...they were harming nobody." Perhaps they were harming those who paid to be taught English properly. I'm sure that if they were properly qualified to do that job they'd have had work permits. The USA gets pretty serious about people not paying income tax or social security payments. Prison, fines, property and assets seized and passport removal to name a few of the penalties. I'm thinking most other governments in the west are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class. "should speech no fluent english only broken english"... You'd be an expert on that. Can't you just have one more drink.... fall off your stool... & fade off into oblivion ???? Just hoping.....Cheers..... Mal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5370 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Technically, from an international trade perspective, what they are doing is illegal in both Thailand and China. In 1995, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed. The WTO is where 160 countries from around the world meet and agree on the rules they want for international trade. The WTO also released the General Agreement for Trade in Services (GATS) in 1995. GATS is the rule book for international trade in services. A service is a type of economic activity that is intangible, not stored, does not result in ownership and which is consumed at the point of sale (internet definition). GATS defines 12 service sectors and education is one of them. Both the GATS agreement China signed in 1995 and the 2007 ASEAN/China trade agreement in services doesn't allow for providing a Mode 1 (cross border supply) services from Thailand in to China for language training. They might not be stealing jobs from Thai citizens but technically, they are stealing jobs from Chinese English speaking teachers inside China. It's similar to smuggling goods across the border from one country into another. In this case, it's a service being illegally exported from Thailand into China. China could complain if they wanted to. The internet business providing the service was also operating illegally in Thailand which explains why there were no work permits for that particular job to be found when the employees were asked for them by the police. All in all, illegal foreign trade, working without a work permit or the wrong work permit and possibly not having the right visa while working. for all I know, this may be right. but there's an entire industry openly operating around the world in violation of the rules you're citing. Yes including huge international companies it seems - Google for instance is providing an intangible service, so is Microsoft, Yahoo and many more. International online services are subscribed to, rather than pushed at. As described quite eloquently by someone above the Internet is capitalised as it is now a "place" (albeit a virtual one) - it simply does not fit with a lot of these archaic laws, rules and agreements - 1995 was a time before global Internet business existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernieOnTour Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Lets sum that up: - 17 foreigners without work permit, so paying no taxes or social contribution - 17 foreigners with a wrong visa - hired by a company located in Chiang Mai (registered?, 51% Thai ownership ???) - working all together out of one, central office - with a fixed salary, paid in the countries' currency I do NOT know ONE western country, which would tolerate such violations of the labour and immigration laws, if the shit hits the fan. btw.: they would not risk that in Singapore, there they would end up in jail for a long time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5370 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Bad move. They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer. They were taking nobody's job. Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are.................. I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody. "They were not committing a crime," "I know, you can't work without a WP," Make up your mind. "...they were harming nobody." Perhaps they were harming those who paid to be taught English properly. I'm sure that if they were properly qualified to do that job they'd have had work permits. You are "sure" are you. Or are you just guessing and likely wrong as much as right. Schools offer terrible wages and conditions for teachers in general here, online they can earn more and work at hours to suit. They are likely to be at least TEFL qualified, and many will be retired individuals and have degrees from earlier life. Just as qualified as most foreign teachers here. However, I am "sure" you know best - and the Thai authorities are really trying to protect the interests of those poor Chinese students! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5370 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Bad move. They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer. They were taking nobody's job. Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are.................. I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody. Rubbish and nonesnece, it was a crime, read your visa restrictions, end of! Read yours, and immigration law - working is defined by doing work and expending energy. So, everything is breaking the law! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 That's one thing I would have hated in school: to be taught "Mickey Mouse English" unacceptable in England. I would never have been able to stand a trial in court without a translator if "Mickey Mouse English" would have been the only English taught. What will school kids do when they go abroad one day if all they know is "Thenglish" Pidgin English. Even worse, I know a few guys that used to speak native English when they came to Thailand, but now adopted Thai English and are not able to say anything in proper English anymore. That really hurts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laobali Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Bit counter productive, seems these guys were doing something that could be done from any country, kicking them out the country will not make jobs for Thais, they will just relocate their business, and not be spending money in the Kingdom. Makes me wonder whether I should holiday in Thailand again, as I have a business and still need to run it even when on holiday. Running your business while on holiday is one thing; those guys were trying to earn enough to live in Thailand – in a technically illegal way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Welcome to NK Folks Why do you say this? Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Australia without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Canada without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in the USA without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in many other countries without a permit. You will be very disappointed. Then deported. Actually there are plenty of people working illegally in those countries while the relevant authorities do not harshly enforce the laws all the time and or everyday and run people out of the country...here one day and thrown out the next....certainly not like that Fortunately they do not harshly enforce the laws here in Thailand to any great extent while they are very lenient as compared to numerous other countries. Still...the authorities need to change the laws and requirements because the current laws are basically not being abided by while both Thais and foreigners are complicit. They have to make it easier for foreigners to make the arrangements to work here legally or people will remain criminalized simply for working and living and staying in Thailand.....hardly a serious crime by any standards. I am not defending the practice...just pointing out the authorities need to address the problem in a different manner rather than police raids that result in all the more fear and loathing of the police and relevant authorities because the police do not enforce the laws because they believe it is absolutely necessary and required of them rather they have an ulterior motive. This issue is really a grey area if there ever was while infractions of the immigration laws and labor laws should not be national headlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcatcher Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 So they took out this infested rat hole. Good on them! That will set the example for the rest of the lot! These leeches need to be eradicated, because they are the ones that spoil it for the impeccable ones! Why can't they follow the ever changing rules?? Don't they understand that it doesn't matter that even if they have been teaching legally for many years with a work permit, and build a life here, because it was perfectly fine to teach without a degree - it is now time to say goodbye to their wife or gf and kids, and head back to where they came from 5, 10 or 15 years ago, without them, and be satisfied with an occasional visit to the LoS? Gawd...................... I can appreciate your terse comment after reading that post. Totally impossible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante99 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 ......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................ I don't think it is his job to know or decide about work permits, that is not a responsibility of the Immigration Police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatfreak Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Criminals! Teaching English, taking away jobs from Thai who all speak fluently English. Let's see... 17 farangs mean you need to employ 17x4= 68 Thais to get the farangs valid work permits. Thus by being illegal they took the jobs from 68 Thais, at least that is the immigration logic thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I guess it's a teacher's job to get an ESL certificate and proceed it to school, and it's the school administration's job to check it before signing a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 There's something that really annoys me in this forum: All posters demand equal rights from Thai government, but when Thai laws get applied to them many Farangs complain. Do those Farangs want an Animal Farm where all are equal, just some foreigners a bit more equal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 As I recall, a few months ago the police raided another location and attempted to arrest a few foreigners for the same thing. In that case they found out they had no case while they were still at the scene. It's not the same thing, there's a crucial difference. These teachers were employed by a Thai co and being paid in Thailand. That the end customers were in China is irrelevant. When I ring up my bank back home to get help from someone, they are not working for me, they are working for my bank back home - it's the same principle. Had the teachers been working independently from home and being paid direct by the Chinese customers, that would be comparable. What is the difference between this situation and the one I mentioned? Serious question because I don't remember what caused them to get off before. The raid you mention was on a co-working space, which is a location that anyone can go to to work. The people arrested there were released when it was ascertained that they did not work FOR the co-working space. Numerous people there were digital nomads, earning an income independently online. They were not (assuming they all told the truth) working FOR any Thai company or being paid in Thailand. Some people on this forum understood this to be a validation of the Chiang Mai immigration officials comments regarding 'digital nomads' being OK to work so long as it was not for Thai companies and they did not get paid in Thailand. Others claimed that all the people arrested could all have said they were checking their email, and that the police took them on their word despite having their machines and browsing history and having spent considerable time, money and effort on conducting a raid seeking people working illegally. I'd personally lean toward the former conclusion. This raid today is a very different set of circumstances - these people were working on in an office set up by a Thai company to run an online business, being employed (paid directly) by that company in Thailand. They are working FOR a thai company (the fact that the end customers happened to be in China is irrelevant) and they were also being paid for their trouble in Thailand. The only similarity is that both sets use the internet to work, but the latter set are being employed by a Thai company under the table to do so, and being paid by that Thai company. So the difference is employment by a Thai co+payment in Thailand (definitely illegal) vs no employment by a Thai co and no payment in Thailand (a grey area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name. Immigration / BIB should be checking all the schools in Chiang Mai. I'm guess that a large percentage of NES teachers don't have WPs in both private and public schools. However, if they did that, English language programs would dry up for lack of instructors. Soooooo, a little tea money here, connections with various Thai agencies and departments there, no problems for the local schools. Methinks immigration is picking low-hanging fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Does all other countries allow to work online similarly (without harming anybody) without a work permit? Where? Unaware of any specific legislation allowing this, but to turn the question around: Can you find any example from anywhere in the world of somebody without permission to work in a country being prosecuted for working online solely for clients outside of the country they are in paying them outside of the country they are in? I can't, and have looked. I personally know many people that do, Americans throughout the EU, Europeans throughout the US, and from all over the world in Asia. Just to be clear though - these people weren't working in the manner I describe - they were simply employed illegally in Thailand by a Thai company that happened to have Chinese clients, and for people acting in this manner you will find thousands of examples of prosecutions worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey dog Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 but why do it here? why not cambodia where you can be legal with no effort? surely siem reap has as much to offer as chiang mai. cost wise similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboctok Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name. It seems traditional to say that, but it's a bit pessimistic. I think the opposite is just as likely. If you were the last foreigner in the country working legally, you'd be mighty special, compared with all the riff raff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Can't manage to catch those who possess/make/sell fake passports and engage in people trafficking but nab a few would-be TEFLERS. Or the Nigerians selling all sorts of drugs, Arabs selling fake Viagra and other bs, child porn DVD's are sold next to cops, who're just waiting for a foreigner to drop his cigarette bud, plus various other serious crime that nobody "wants to see." The last time I walked down the Sukhumvit rd. from Nana to Asoke, I couldn't believe my own eyes. Of course did all these guys have work permits. C'mon. This country rapidly became the hub of blind cops, with the ability to see at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 but why do it here? why not cambodia where you can be legal with no effort? surely siem reap has as much to offer as chiang mai. cost wise similar? Personally I don't think it's illegal here (I don't mean the teachers arrested on this occasion, they were unquestionably acting illegally - I mean people that truly work online exclusively for foreign clients that are paid abroad). Given the Thai legal definition of work includes walking down the street, what constitutes 'working in Thailand' in practice can only be judged on the basis of precedents. I am unaware of any prior prosecution in Thailand (or anywhere in the world for that matter) of people that travel and work remotely over the internet for foreign entities with payment received outside of the country they are in - aka digital nomads. It would be very hard to legislate anywhere in the world (for example is sending an email work? Is writing a book that you haven't received an advance for work? Is managing a portfolio work? Is receiving adwords income from a blog you wrote 3 years ago whilst you sit on a beach work?), but harder still in a country that has issued legislation that includes walking down the street and breathing in their definition of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Can we know exactly how much money is required to resolve this "oh so terrible crime" I surmise it will be totally ignored or dismissed relevant to the fact that the school / company / corporation did not do their part first and arrange all necessary documentation and or meet all their requirements ( first ) The foreigners will be held accountable but all the Thais involved will be free of any wrong doing or complicity and or they will BS their way out of any wrong doing while throwing the foreigners to the sharks. Cheers "The foreigners will be held accountable but all the Thais involved will be free of any wrong doing or complicity and or they will BS their way out of any wrong doing while throwing the foreigners to the sharks." That's hitting the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanSaiExPat Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Bad move. They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer. They were taking nobody's job. Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are.................. I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody. I wish I got a quarter every time someone committed a criminal act that harmed nobody. The problem is who "defines" what is "criminal". Would you like a quarter for every time a Christian defied Sharia law and follow the tenants of his or her faith? Would you like a quarter every time a mother and father refused to engage in female genital mutilation by cutting off their daughters clitoris in accordance with the tenants of Islam and Sharia Law? Would you wish for that quarter too? Would you take quarters from self appointed dictators who pass laws in contravention of common sense and basic freedoms of human existence? I want to know. Do you wish for those quarters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arunsakda Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 What the blazes are you talking about? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FritsSikkink Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Welcome to NK Folks Why do you say this? Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Australia without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Canada without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in the USA without a permit. Try arriving and expecting to work legally in many other countries without a permit. You will be very disappointed. Then deported. Actually there are plenty of people working illegally in those countries while the relevant authorities do not harshly enforce the laws all the time and or everyday and run people out of the country...here one day and thrown out the next....certainly not like that Fortunately they do not harshly enforce the laws here in Thailand to any great extent while they are very lenient as compared to numerous other countries. Still...the authorities need to change the laws and requirements because the current laws are basically not being abided by while both Thais and foreigners are complicit. They have to make it easier for foreigners to make the arrangements to work here legally or people will remain criminalized simply for working and living and staying in Thailand.....hardly a serious crime by any standards. I am not defending the practice...just pointing out the authorities need to address the problem in a different manner rather than police raids that result in all the more fear and loathing of the police and relevant authorities because the police do not enforce the laws because they believe it is absolutely necessary and required of them rather they have an ulterior motive. This issue is really a grey area if there ever was while infractions of the immigration laws and labor laws should not be national headlines. Those countries will deport you You are defending the practice There is no grey area, only in the mind of the people who break the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLing Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 . . . . . Fortunately they do not harshly enforce the laws here in Thailand to any great extent while they are very lenient as compared to numerous other countries. . . . . . . Fortunately? More like sadly, that's why one get's away with murder in Thailand. I suppose, because FORTUNATELY, they do not enforce the laws here in Thailand to any great extend ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBonnie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The Police don't care about foreigners working here or whether or not we are contributing financially to the Thai government they were arrested because the police never got a kick back from their illegal work. As long as you pay, mai bpen rai. I would love to see the BIB raid a few schools in Thailand and arrest the teachers working illegally in them . . . . .but that will never happen because it would mean all schools had to be legit and possibly pay the 'legal' farangs more. Hypocrisy of the highest order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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