Libya Is Turning Into Iraq

[webfact]

Libya Is Turning Into Iraq
Just four years after the Arab Spring, ISIS attacks reveal a country on the brink of total failure.
MATT SCHIAVENZA

On Sunday, the Islamic State released a video showing the beheadings of 21 Christian Egyptians in a stretch of land near Tripoli, Libya. The recording—narrated by a fighter speaking English with a North American accent, is similar to many other gruesome videos that the group has released.

But the setting of the attack—Libya—represents two disturbing trends in the Middle East. One is that ISIS's reach now extends thousands of miles from its base in Iraq and Syria. The other is that Libya—the one-time stronghold of dictator Muammar al-Qaddafi—is now arguably worse off than ever.

Sunday's massacre occurred four years to the month after anti-government protests in Benghazi, Libya's second-largest city, sparked a nationwide uprising that brought down Qaddafi. The United States, which intervened on the side of anti-Qaddafi forces along with France and the U.K., reacted to the fall of the regime with optimism. Speaking in the Rose Garden after the dictator's death in August 2011, President Obama said that Qaddafi's beleaguered subjects now had an "opportunity to determine their own destiny in a new and democratic Libya.”

Four years after the first protests against Qaddafi, Libya is now divided, lawless, a haven for extremists, and unable to capitalize on its oil wealth.

Less than four years later, Libya now exists in name only. The country is effectively divided into western and eastern halves, each governed by a militia comprised of a loose coalition of forces. Both sides claim legitimacy over the country as a whole. But the top United Nations envoy in the country, Bernardino Leon, is not optimistic the two will soon reconcile. [read more...]

Full story: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/egypt-bombs-isis-libya-beheading-video/385544/

-- The Atlantic 2015-02-17

[KhunMoo]

Maybe this "Arab Spring", was not the best thing?

[kotsak]

Nice move to remove the bad guys who were running Iraq and Libya.. Keyword is "bad".

[marko kok prong]

Another stunning success for Obama ,Cameron etc.

[Robby nz]

Now if Gaddafi hadn't wanted gold for his oil he wouldn't have had to have been removed and he it seems was the only one who could keep the country together.

Didn't I read somewhere that in Gaddafi's time it was the country in Africa with the highest per capita income, the best education and health care.

Could it just be that democracy forced by bombs and bullets isn't the best way for every country ?

[wabothai]

Every one in the world has a right to a share of the pie.

Most problems in the world stem from the ones who have taken the power, who do not allow sharing to protect their (?) money and power.

America is no different. So is Thailand.

[rickirs]

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Now if Gaddafi hadn't wanted gold for his oil he wouldn't have had to have been removed and he it seems was the only one who could keep the country together.

Didn't I read somewhere that in Gaddafi's time it was the country in Africa with the highest per capita income, the best education and health care.

Could it just be that democracy forced by bombs and bullets isn't the best way for every country ?

Don't you have to have democracy first before you judge it a failure?

[Thakkar]

1. Encourage and arm anti government rebels

2. Provide necessary air cover for them to defeat the dictator Gaddafi

3. Freedom!!

Here's a Dec 16, 2014 map from Vox.com

T

[Steely Dan]

There should be one simple rule for Western politicians when it comes to Muslim nations.

Above all else make sure the Islamo-fascists never gain power. Perhaps a benevolent dictator could have said nations ready to try democracy in about a century or so, but in the meantime any cooperative brutal dictator would be an acceptable fallback option. Gadaffi was a cooperative dictator, it would be instructive indeed to look back and see just where the political pressure came from to overthrow Gadaffi. Whoever it was, they were batting for the enemy either through ignorance or active collusion.

[NickJ]

There is no case where a middle eastern dictator is deposed that any good comes of it.

Maybe all this toppling is aimed at ; sure it never works....So we just cant let Saudi topple.... Lets have a major change in the policy of no boots on the ground and do whatever has ro be done to keep the Guantanamo of the middle east stable....

[car720]

This may sound a little over simplified but, if you put a wolf at the gate of a sheep paddock then there is a fairly good chance that the sheep will behave but, if you put a sheep at the gate of a paddock full of wolves then the sheep won't last long. The people of the middle east are all like hungry wolves. They will even turn on their own and they are just as volatile. The only time there is peace for these people is when they have a monster wolf to control them, like Ghadaffi. (spelling). The proof is in the pudding.

[brling]

Another stunning success for Obama ,Cameron etc.

Cameron ? I dont think the UK was involved.

[Robby nz]

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Now if Gaddafi hadn't wanted gold for his oil he wouldn't have had to have been removed and he it seems was the only one who could keep the country together.

Didn't I read somewhere that in Gaddafi's time it was the country in Africa with the highest per capita income, the best education and health care.

Could it just be that democracy forced by bombs and bullets isn't the best way for every country ?

Don't you have to have democracy first before you judge it a failure?

Basically no.

Not all countries and peoples have the same values or ways of thinking and to attempt to change something that is working, as it was in Libya to your system just because it is your preferred system is not on.

I think that it could be reasonably said given the present situation that US inspired (forced) democracy in both Libya and Iraq have been a failure.

While the previous situation in both these countries was not what anyone could call perfect what we now see is far worse and is spreading death and destruction elsewhere.

I ask you should democracy be pushed on to any country because it is the system you prefer, as some sort of an experiment to see if it works under the conditions of that country ?

But anyway in the cases of Libya and Iraq the excuses for killing off Saddam and Gaddafi were only that, excuses, it was all about protecting the mighty $ as the oil trading currency.

Saddam was wanting Euros for his oil and Gaddafi was wanting gold, we couldn't have that now could we ?

[Robby nz]

Another stunning success for Obama ,Cameron etc.

Cameron ? I dont think the UK was involved.

The UK and France were both involved.

That both had tankers quietly waiting off shore till the rebels took over the refineries.

Spoils for the victors.

[mania]

The UK and France were both involved.

That both had tankers quietly waiting off shore till the rebels took over the refineries.

Spoils for the victors.

Actually it was France who had the most to lose as they had some major holdings/licensing in Libya.

Once they threatened then they had to follow thru.

It is no small surprise the 1st air strikes against Libya came from France

A French plane fired the first shots against Libyan government targets at 1645 GMT

on Saturday, destroying a number of military vehicles, according to a military spokesman.

They also gained the most after providing air support for their puppets

France was the first country to provide military support for the Libyan rebels and the first to recognize the opposition as the legitimate government of Libya.

Moreover, Frances Total S.A. (NYSE:TOT) was the first major international oil company to ramp up production in the aftermath of the uprising.

This whole mess is FUBAR but it is FUBAR on purpose.

So ignore the current story line that ISIS the all powerful world dominating force is breeding like rabbits.

It is just another watch my right hand here so you dont see what my left is doing or has done.

You couldn't make this crap up even in a Thai Lakorn

[ggt]

Just another example of the results of US foreign policy failure in the ME...nothing new...

[Paulc01]

Just another example of the results of US foreign policy failure in the ME...nothing new...

The French and British started this, not the US.

[GentlemanJim]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Another stunning success for Obama ,Cameron etc.

Cameron ? I dont think the UK was involved.

?????

[GentlemanJim]

Just another example of the results of US foreign policy failure in the ME...nothing new...

The French and British started this, not the US.

On 1 March 2011 the US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging Th UN Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone and encouraging Gaddafi to step down. The US had naval forces positioned off the coast of Libya including the USS Enterprise. The fleet later launched 140+ Tomahawk missiles on Libya.

[Paulc01]

Just another example of the results of US foreign policy failure in the ME...nothing new...

The French and British started this, not the US.

On 1 March 2011 the US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging Th UN Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone and encouraging Gaddafi to step down. The US had naval forces positioned off the coast of Libya including the USS Enterprise. The fleet later launched 140+ Tomahawk missiles on Libya.

Three non-sequiturs.

[englishoak]

Is anyone surprised ?

[NeverSure]

There should be one simple rule for Western politicians when it comes to Muslim nations.

Above all else make sure the Islamo-fascists never gain power. Perhaps a benevolent dictator could have said nations ready to try democracy in about a century or so, but in the meantime any cooperative brutal dictator would be an acceptable fallback option. Gadaffi was a cooperative dictator, it would be instructive indeed to look back and see just where the political pressure came from to overthrow Gadaffi. Whoever it was, they were batting for the enemy either through ignorance or active collusion.

Gaddafi was a terrorist himself. He was just a smooth mover. I don't think the West ever got over him being responsible for blowing up Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. He admitted to doing it and paid reparations to the victims.

He was providing arms and money to terrorists in other countries.

The coalition, led by France didn't just suddenly decide to take him out. It built up over a long time.

Now, whether it still would have been best to leave him in power, I don't know. But just because things might have seemed under control in Libya doesn't mean that control wasn't fomenting terrorism around the world.

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to a site specializing in conspiracy nonsense has been removed.

Edit: Numerous other off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Scott

[Steely Dan]

There should be one simple rule for Western politicians when it comes to Muslim nations.

Above all else make sure the Islamo-fascists never gain power. Perhaps a benevolent dictator could have said nations ready to try democracy in about a century or so, but in the meantime any cooperative brutal dictator would be an acceptable fallback option. Gadaffi was a cooperative dictator, it would be instructive indeed to look back and see just where the political pressure came from to overthrow Gadaffi. Whoever it was, they were batting for the enemy either through ignorance or active collusion.

Gaddafi was a terrorist himself. He was just a smooth mover. I don't think the West ever got over him being responsible for blowing up Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. He admitted to doing it and paid reparations to the victims.

He was providing arms and money to terrorists in other countries.

The coalition, led by France didn't just suddenly decide to take him out. It built up over a long time.

Now, whether it still would have been best to leave him in power, I don't know. But just because things might have seemed under control in Libya doesn't mean that control wasn't fomenting terrorism around the world.

I am aware of Lockerbie, I was driving up to Scotland that very evening and we were delayed as emergency services removed debris from the motorway. Yes, Gadaffi, like Saddam Hussein would support terrorism periodically. I guess a judgement has to be made as to whether a despot can be house trained, or whether it is worth the effort of replacing them with another one. Gadaffi even warned that it was his regime that stemmed the tide of culture enrichers seeded with Islamists that washed up on the coasts of Southern Europe. Now ISIS has a base 700km from the Italian coast, anyone fancy a Mediterranean cruise?

[VIPinthailand]

Bush's fault!

[connda]

Hummm? A few more awaken souls have risen. Maybe there is a sliver of hope?

[manarak]

1. Encourage and arm anti government rebels

2. Provide necessary air cover for them to defeat the dictator Gaddafi

3. Freedom!!

Here's a Dec 16, 2014 map from Vox.com

T

here is a 15.02.2015 map from Wikipedia

seems to me the new non-religious government forces are winning, even if a ceasefire has been agreed on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Civil_War_%282014%E2%80%93present%29

Also, the islamist GNC controlling Tripoli sent a batalion to fight ISIS in Sirte - obviously they don't want to be associated with ISIS.

Edited February 18, 2015 by manarak

[Bwanatickey]

Libya was not the first Arab country to have an Arab Spring revolution, they just copied their neighbour, a country that did it without Western military assistance .