UK national taking Thai wife and Uk kids to Spain.

[daveyravey]

So you could go to Spain (or any other EU country) for the purpose of finding work (employement)and various other purposes, including economicaly inactive. In which case financial means would have to be proven, the height depending on the minimum living standard of the given country (Spain in your case but don't ask me how much income the require per month for financially independant EU citizens),

For the first 3 months you should be alright anyway aslong as you don't become a financial burden to the authorities,giving you time find work if financially independant is not an option. Once there you'd need to tackle Spanish bureacracy discribed above, but this might be more straightfoward if an experienced source explains it and I doubt you'd need to know everything in advance but having a general idea of the procedures certainly won't harm your cause.

The theory remains simple: move there, don't be a burden to the Spanish authorities, register in a townhall, register with immigration, register your family members, settle in perhaps later on move to the UK or just stay in Spain if it suits you better.

Thanks for that. I read everywhere that i must get a job in Spain to enable me to get back into the UK through the Surinder Singh route. Although i can self support whilst we are in Spain it seems the definition of family life in Spain revolves around having a job there or being self employed.

[Donutz]

It wouldn't make sense that being self supporting would not be acceptable, it most certainly is for the Spanish authorities (if you have sufficient funds ofcourse, the minimum number which I do not know). and after migrating back to the UK it should "only" be a matter of showing you had the intention of settling in Spain long term. The UKVI guidelines may give some insight on that but if you consider your migratie to Spain as something which might be long term and act accordingly (Spanish mobile package, perhaps opening a bank account there etc.) you should be fine. I guess having a job in Spain could help the case that that actually did a proper migration rather then a long holiday but I see no reason why the SS route wouldn't work for self sufficient migrants who stayed 6 (officially 3) months in Spain or any other EU coutry with the intention to likely stay there long term.

[MaeJoMTB]

So you could go to Spain (or any other EU country) for the purpose of finding work (employement)and various other purposes, including economicaly inactive. In which case financial means would have to be proven, the height depending on the minimum living standard of the given country (Spain in your case but don't ask me how much income the require per month for financially independant EU citizens),

For the first 3 months you should be alright anyway aslong as you don't become a financial burden to the authorities,giving you time find work if financially independant is not an option. Once there you'd need to tackle Spanish bureacracy discribed above, but this might be more straightfoward if an experienced source explains it and I doubt you'd need to know everything in advance but having a general idea of the procedures certainly won't harm your cause.

The theory remains simple: move there, don't be a burden to the Spanish authorities, register in a townhall, register with immigration, register your family members, settle in perhaps later on move to the UK or just stay in Spain if it suits you better.

Thanks for that. I read everywhere that i must get a job in Spain to enable me to get back into the UK through the Surinder Singh route. Although i can self support whilst we are in Spain it seems the definition of family life in Spain revolves around having a job there or being self employed.

Don't forget self employed covers a very wide range of activities.

How about freelance English teacher, you could report 4 hours work a week (real or not) and pay the cheaper rate NI contributions(Class 2 @ 2.70GBP/week) in the UK.

[daveyravey]

It wouldn't make sense that being self supporting would not be acceptable, it most certainly is for the Spanish authorities (if you have sufficient funds ofcourse, the minimum number which I do not know). and after migrating back to the UK it should "only" be a matter of showing you had the intention of settling in Spain long term. The UKVI guidelines may give some insight on that but if you consider your migratie to Spain as something which might be long term and act accordingly (Spanish mobile package, perhaps opening a bank account there etc.) you should be fine. I guess having a job in Spain could help the case that that actually did a proper migration rather then a long holiday but I see no reason why the SS route wouldn't work for self sufficient migrants who stayed 6 (officially 3) months in Spain or any other EU coutry with the intention to likely stay there long term.

Sounds interesting. I have the funds available to look for a business in Spain although in all honesty I doubt I would invest in Spain.

I wonder where i might get more advice on this?

[7by7]

I read everywhere that i must get a job in Spain to enable me to get back into the UK through the Surinder Singh route

The judgement in the case of O and B v The Netherlands established five key points:

• A residence period of at least three months is required (para 54)
• Weekend visits and holidays do not count as residence for this purpose (para 59)
• Any citizen of the Union can potentially benefit from this right, not just workers and the self employed (my emphasis)(references to Article 7 of Citizens Directive 2004/38 , e.g. para 56, and to Article 21 of the TFEU, e.g. para 54)
• During the period of residence family life must have been “created or strengthened” (para 51)
• Abuse is impermissible (para 58)

BUT

The UKVI entry clearance guidance still says that to qualify under the Surinder Singh route the British family member needs to have been a worker or self employed in the other EEA state.

The general guidance also says that the British family member of applicants must provide "proof that they were working or self-employed in the EEA country, eg employer’s letters, wage slips, contracts or proof of registration with relevant tax authorities."

Whether this is because UKVI have not bothered to update their guidance, or whether it is because the UK is ignoring the judgement, I can't say.

Donutz? Anyone?

[Donutz]

Sadly that's UKVI either using outdated guidelines or (more likely?) trying to frustrate the SS route people. Under the directive there is no requirement to return as a worker etc. Aslong as you have residency in Spain and are self sufficient (meeting the minimum income to service per month set by Spain) you can stay in Spain. If Spain says you can stay and you move back after 6 (actually 3...) or more months UKVI should not refuse the SS application.

Plenty of people (Dutch) do this by living in Belgium but working in NL (thus Belgium does not consider them as workers) or being self sufficient in some other way. Moving back after some reasonable time has passed (6 months, though technically it's just 3 but the Dutch IND updated it's guidelines in the fall of 2014 and raised it to 6 months) they can apply under the EU/SS route.

But if UKVI plays hardball, just as with the Spanish requesting evidence that the UK has accepted/registrated/confirmed the Thai marriage, for an easier time it would be best to play along if you can. If you are unable to, I'd consult somebody who knows all about the "UK citizens dong the SS route via Spain" experts (lawyers, possible other forums/websites).

[loppylugs1]

I read everywhere that i must get a job in Spain to enable me to get back into the UK through the Surinder Singh route

The judgement in the case of O and B v The Netherlands established five key points:

• A residence period of at least three months is required (para 54)
• Weekend visits and holidays do not count as residence for this purpose (para 59)
• Any citizen of the Union can potentially benefit from this right, not just workers and the self employed (my emphasis)(references to Article 7 of Citizens Directive 2004/38 , e.g. para 56, and to Article 21 of the TFEU, e.g. para 54)
• During the period of residence family life must have been “created or strengthened” (para 51)
• Abuse is impermissible (para 58)

BUT

The UKVI entry clearance guidance still says that to qualify under the Surinder Singh route the British family member needs to have been a worker or self employed in the other EEA state.

The general guidance also says that the British family member of applicants must provide "proof that they were working or self-employed in the EEA country, eg employer’s letters, wage slips, contracts or proof of registration with relevant tax authorities."

Whether this is because UKVI have not bothered to update their guidance, or whether it is because the UK is ignoring the judgement, I can't say.

Donutz? Anyone?

I would like to see this guy turn up at immigration espousing word for word what you are quoting,think a rocket ship awaits

[daveyravey]

Well it seems straight forward. I go to Spain self sufficiently and look for a business to buy there. If not successful within 4 or 5 months then apply to UK for EEA spouse permit . The judgement clearly says all we need to have done is strengthen our family life in Spain. Putting the kids in a nursery there, paying bills, join a spanish class etc should suffice for this in the case of not finding a business that suits.

So it now appears i dont even have to find a job.

[daveyravey]

I read everywhere that i must get a job in Spain to enable me to get back into the UK through the Surinder Singh route

The judgement in the case of O and B v The Netherlands established five key points:

• A residence period of at least three months is required (para 54)
• Weekend visits and holidays do not count as residence for this purpose (para 59)
• Any citizen of the Union can potentially benefit from this right, not just workers and the self employed (my emphasis)(references to Article 7 of Citizens Directive 2004/38 , e.g. para 56, and to Article 21 of the TFEU, e.g. para 54)
• During the period of residence family life must have been “created or strengthened” (para 51)
• Abuse is impermissible (para 58)

BUT

The UKVI entry clearance guidance still says that to qualify under the Surinder Singh route the British family member needs to have been a worker or self employed in the other EEA state.

The general guidance also says that the British family member of applicants must provide "proof that they were working or self-employed in the EEA country, eg employer’s letters, wage slips, contracts or proof of registration with relevant tax authorities."

Whether this is because UKVI have not bothered to update their guidance, or whether it is because the UK is ignoring the judgement, I can't say.

Donutz? Anyone?

If i would like clarification that the UK guidance is flawed by giving incorrect information where or to whom should i write to? Is there an ombudsman or something?

[theoldgit]

If i would like clarification that the UK guidance is flawed by giving incorrect information where or to whom should i write to? Is there an ombudsman or something?

There isn't an ombudsman though there is an Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration, and whilst they don't take on individual cases you could argue that as you believe the UKVI are publishing inaccurate or misleading advice it might come within their remit. http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/

You could of course contact the Immigration Minister, though I suspect he's pretty preoccupied trying to keep his job, though one of his team might fire off a generic reply. [email protected] https://www.gov.uk/government/people/james-brokenshire

[laolover88]

Without my having to wade through it!! As I appreciate some of you have done...In relation to " Employment" does the SS route regulations have anything to say about Pensioners??

[daveyravey]

Without my having to wade through it!! As I appreciate some of you have done...In relation to " Employment" does the SS route regulations have anything to say about Pensioners??

My take on it is that as long as you establish yourself in the host country, and your centre of life is there you can be self sufficient or work. A pension makes you self sufficient. Although this differs to UK guidelines. I would think if you were in Spain more than 6 months, rented a house, took spanish lessons, got a mobile phone contract etc etc and then applied to go to the UK they would have a hard time refusing you entry. The key is to prove you genuinely lived in Spain and didnt use it as a route to the UK.

[Donutz]

Indeed Dave, and that's also how the EU (court) looks at it and how UKVI should look at it.

[7by7]

Without my having to wade through it!! As I appreciate some of you have done...In relation to " Employment" does the SS route regulations have anything to say about Pensioners??

The economic treaty rights are;

• student;
• jobseeker;
• worker, employed or self employed;
• living off independent means.

(Remember it must be the EEA national family member who is exercising one of these rights.)

Under the regulations, pensioners are covered by "living off independent means."

Which, according to the judgement linked to earlier, means the non EEA family members of EEA pensioners are eligible for the Surinder Singh route.

The question is; will UKVI see it that way?

They should, and are breaking EU law if they don't; but it may take a court case before they accept that fact.

[MaeJoMTB]

With the Euro at 1.4 to the GBP, Spain is looking even more attractive to me.

Would taking Spanish lessons make you a student?

(while you were looking for work)

[paz]

With the Euro at 1.4 to the GBP, Spain is looking even more attractive to me.

Would taking Spanish lessons make you a student?

(while you were looking for work)

I think you will find that you don't need to pretend or worry about bureaucracy. Move in, spend your money, enjoy life and that's it.

[laolover88]

I sometimes wonder how all this came about! I have a lot of sympathy for men and women sitting in a boat off the Libyan coast trying to escape poverty, much of it created by European countries and the US. And I understand why there is some resistance to granting them access to 'Europe'

However the idea that a UK citizen cannot simply go, without jumping through hoops, to the UK with his/her wife/husband who happens not to have been born in the UK, EU, EEA I find repugnant. There is a lot of b*****t in 'official documents about the 'rights of the child' being paramount. How does that square with my being able to take the child to the UK but not her mother?

Sorry little rant! I think now we have mostly sorted it. The only hiccups seem to occur in the interpretation of rules by various embassies! There should be a shrine to Surinder Singh!!

[Donutz]

I was browsing the EU webpage's and came across a page on EU immigration (found it near the bottom of "visa for non-EU family members" page):

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/eu-immigration-portal-home_en

It has some pages detailing immigration matters per country (interactive map), might be useful to see which authorities and branches you are probably having to go and deal with in your country of choice:

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/what-do-eu-countries-do_en

Might be a Work in Progress though, the page on Spain is rather short (less detailed) when compared to say the page on the Netherlands. Unless the Dutch authorities are abureacratic monster and the Spanish are not, but that's not the case I think... hehehe.