Tangerines

[solent01]

Hi gang

I,ve been following this section of the board for some time, and have now joined, so I can post my thoughts.

I have not seen any referance to tangerine farming so I thought I should start.

Heres the Question...... Anyone farming Tangerines here?

I have a 20 Ria farm, with 1,300 trees, all Honey Queen, the farm has been planted to the standard 80 trees per Ria, and has vehical access right through to the rear of the Orchard, I also have about 1 Ria of water thats some where around 25 to 30 foot depth (never seen it empty), which I use to water the Orchard during the dry season.

The Orchard is 3.5 to 4 years old, and I'm 2 or 3 months away from the first real crop, I am staggering for 3 crops a year to balance out the market flutuations, low is anywhere around the 5 bht per kg mark, high can go up to 45 bht per kg mark as of 7 weeks ago, at the moment grade A is making 30 to 35 bht per kg. I estimate this crop to be around 40 to 50 kg per tree, so I am estimating 52 to 65 tons of tangerines. When the tree is fully grow (mine in about 4 years time) you can expect anywhere upto 100 kg per crop (130 ton 3 times a year).

Now the down side

Tangerine Orchards take a large amount of money to run, at present it is costing me 60k to 70k a month, and this price will go up as the trees mature and need more food, but then the yeild will also go up to compensate. Also Tangerines attract some very nasty pests that can wipe your crop out, so you need to take very, very good care.

Sol

Almost forgot Tangerines like the sun, but not too hot, love water but not standing water, drainage very important. My farm is in Chiangmai province.

[Loom]

So that's why there are people are moving into my wife's hometown area buying up land used for rice to plant oranges/tangerines. The locals seem to think that once the trees go in, the land won't be good for growing rice again. But the economics look too good to ignore and probably one reason why land prices remain firm in that area.

Sorry, but I'm only vaguely familiar with renting out land to rice farmers and don't have any specific growing experience to share (Most of the potted plants I buy never survive). Mainly interested in the economics of various alternatives for farm land and thank the contributors to this forum for their insights.

[solent01]

Hi Loom

Where is your wife's home town? One thing with Tangies, they don't like to be too hot, love the sun yes, but not too much, also love water, but standing water no, if you plant on a paddy, you have to fill the land, and make sure you have very good drainage. As I said before, my farm is in north Chiangmai province, home of the Tangie, the weather here is perfect for them, and as such land prices are at a premium..... ie. 10 Ria with a 10 year Orchard 3 Million Bht, and thats not a Farang price, thats the going Thai rate. Saying that though, I have my eyes on 360 Ria going for the small sum of 14 Million Bht, its empty land and works out at nearly 39k per Ria, still a high price for empty land, but a very good price for this area.

Don't believe the locals, if anything, after you have grown an Orchard on the land, and then change to something else, be it Rice or what ever, the soil will be near perfect, Tangies need Nutrient Rich, Potasium & Calcium etc etc have to be watched very closely, I take soil samples every 3 months to make sure everything is as it should be.

Sol

I don't only farm, I'm envolved with the development of the power grid north Chiangmai, my company contracts to the government, we build bases for the the new steel pylons and larger concrete stands being erected.

Edited August 31, 2006 by solent01

[chownah]

Hi Loom

Where is your wife's home town? One thing with Tangies, they don't like to be too hot, love the sun yes, but not too much, also love water, but standing water no, if you plant on a paddy, you have to fill the land, and make sure you have very good drainage. As I said before, my farm is in north Chiangmai province, home of the Tangie, the weather here is perfect for them, and as such land prices are at a premium..... ie. 10 Ria with a 10 year Orchard 3 Million Bht, and thats not a Farang price, thats the going Thai rate. Saying that though, I have my eyes on 360 Ria going for the small sum of 14 Million Bht, its empty land and works out at nearly 39k per Ria, still a high price for empty land, but a very good price for this area.

Don't believe the locals, if anything, after you have grown an Orchard on the land, and then change to something else, be it Rice or what ever, the soil will be near perfect, Tangies need Nutrient Rich, Potasium & Calcium etc etc have to be watched very closely, I take soil samples every 3 months to make sure everything is as it should be.

Sol

I don't only farm, I'm envolved with the development of the power grid north Chiangmai, my company contracts to the government, we build bases for the the new steel pylons and larger concrete stands being erected.

Solent01,

What's growing on the 360 Rai now? Trees?

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

That price shift over 7 weeks………… from Bht45 p/kg down to Bht5 p/kg!!...... scary, scary. Is that simply “supply & demand”, or are there other factors that influence market price?

Water….mmmmm, not to bad, how do you irrigate – large drippers or small sprinklers?

Tangerines don’t like the heat but do like sunlight……which explains why places like the hilly regions of Chang Mai have loads of orchids. But how that would work in Isaan (North East) I don’t know. Yes, it does get cool here, in fact it can get cold (Loei for example has the coldest temperatures in winter of anywhere in Thailand getting down to 0degree Celcius happens), but that’s only for the evenings and early mornings in winter – the rest of the time its blazing hot.

What’s going to happen when “everyone” jumps on the bandwagon and is growing Tangerines – will the price drop or is the market big enough to absorb all production (what is the export potential like?)?

My big concern is this:

Climate – the climate in South East Asia (including Thailand) is going to change over the next 10 – 15 years, make no mistake about that. We are going to see huge shifts in precipertation patterns with more periods of drought followed by brief but very heavy & short flood type rainfall, but more significantly – average temperatures are going to rise. The Central Plains and North & North East parts of Thailand will feel that climatic change in a very real way……. worrying. Climatic change which is only just now been accepted will happen – and for us in Thailand that change will be influenced by China;s economic development and the pollution it pours out – which is going to exceed the USA’s very shortly (a new coal fired power station every week!).

The other way of looking at this – is that it is going to effect the whole agricultural industry, not just tangerine growers.

You gave 2 extremes of price, Bht 45 and Bht 5 – but is there an average price and what would it be?

Tim

Edited September 1, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[solent01]

That price shift over 7 weeks………… from Bht45 p/kg down to Bht5 p/kg!!...... scary, scary. Is that simply “supply & demand”, or are there other factors that influence market price?

Water….mmmmm, not to bad, how do you irrigate – large drippers or small sprinklers?

Tangerines don’t like the heat but do like sunlight……which explains why places like the hilly regions of Chang Mai have loads of orchids. But how that would work in Isaan (North East) I don’t know. Yes, it does get cool here, in fact it can get cold (Loei for example has the coldest temperatures in winter of anywhere in Thailand getting down to 0degree Celcius happens), but that’s only for the evenings and early mornings in winter – the rest of the time its blazing hot.

What’s going to happen when “everyone” jumps on the bandwagon and is growing Tangerines – will the price drop or is the market big enough to absorb all production (what is the export potential like?)?

My big concern is this:

Climate – the climate in South East Asia (including Thailand) is going to change over the next 10 – 15 years, make no mistake about that. We are going to see huge shifts in precipertation patterns with more periods of drought followed by brief but very heavy & short flood type rainfall, but more significantly – average temperatures are going to rise. The Central Plains and North & North East parts of Thailand will feel that climatic change in a very real way……. worrying. Climatic change which is only just now been accepted will happen – and for us in Thailand that change will be influenced by China;s economic development and the pollution it pours out – which is going to exceed the USA’s very shortly (a new coal fired power station every week!).

The other way of looking at this – is that it is going to effect the whole agricultural industry, not just tangerine growers.

You gave 2 extremes of price, Bht 45 and Bht 5 – but is there an average price and what would it be?

Tim

I us a sprinkler system, giving the trees 45 mins every 2 days, the pump is diesel, we have no electric at the moment, but one of my nabours (very large Tangie Orchard, 300 Ria) is bringing power down the Soi, so we can join with him.

Price fluctuation purely supply and demand, although the price never jumps or falls very quickly, more of a gradual increase/decline, but 45bht a kg is the highest I have seen it ever. The whole of this region is Tangerine Orchard from Chai Prakan all the way to Tha Ton, Tangies started here about 20 years ago when 2 Chinease brothers started farming them, and typical Thai, the locals saw them doing well so everybody jumped on the band wagon, but most of the small scale farmers only crop once a year (due to the sheer expense of looking after your crop), they normal prunne the trees mid Jan to encourage the new bud, Jan and Feb is the best time for budding, even if you don't prunne, your trees natrually bud at this time of year, then nine to 10 months later your crop is ready for harvest, so the market value always drops around Oct time, I'm hopping to get my crop in just before the market crashes. The farmers that are good at business make 3 crops a year, the 2nd crop normally comes Feb time and the third crop and most profitable being ready June, the reason this 3rd crop makes so much money is that the trees don't really want to produce fruit this time of the year, its achieved with fertalizers, tonics, cow dung (Beef herd not milk herd as the bacteria content is a lot higher with milk herd, don't know why, I'm guessing beef stock are fed processed food stuff, but I'm not a cattle farmer so maybe you guys can shed light on this for me) and a lot of careful prunning. to sum it up, the only way to make good money from Tangies is to multi crop, and spend money on looking after you investment, my yearly business plan is working on an average of 20 bht per kg. I have been told that around 40% to 45% of the fruit grown here is exported around Asia, the rest is sold to traders who then take back to their own region to sell on, or sent to the Bangkok markets, I have a contact that buys for a supermarket chain, but I am still waiting for my first big crop so will have to let you know how that goes. the farm was the good ladies idea, so I do this more for her than myself, my baby is the groung work, digging big holes with big toys, needs little to no money, just your original investment to buy the toy, and some good contacts to get regular work.

The issue about the climate? yes, very worrying, I hope to have made the most of it by then and be working outside of agriculture, my region has no private coach hire companies, everybody hires in from Bangkok or Chiangmai, so this is something I am looking into. Also have a new contact in Rayong regarding my diggers so I am in the market for a new or secand hand Komatsu 200 series.

The 360 Ria is just woodland, seems a shame to rip it all down but all around is farm land, and if I don't do it one of the big boys will come in and take it, however, its a huge investment that will not start to see a return for 3 1/2 to 4 years, do I really need the hassle, not sure about that yet.

One thing I have noticed is the trent towards Rubber, a lot of the small farms are ripping out the Tangies and switching to para, which is good news for those of us sticking to the Orchards, the trend seems to be that the market price is improving.

Sol

Edited September 1, 2006 by solent01

[Rinrada]

Not to change the subject too much but last night sitting in a local Chinese Restaurant here in Enfield with KW (her birthday ...well its only once a year) we all got talking about Peanuts

I dont particulary like them but she does and so it seems everyone else in our party so just wondered what the market is like for them and thought it might be worth giving them a go.

Remember Jimmi Carter...

Does any grow them in LOS ...sure they must..but ..MKjai...

Bit of info.....

Types of peanuts:

Although there are many varieties of peanuts there are four basic types:

Runner- Runners have become the dominant type due to the introduction in the early 1970's of a new runner variety, the Florunner, which was responsible for a spectacular increase in peanut yields. Runners have rapidly gained wide acceptance because of their attractive kernel size range;a high proportion of are used for runners peanut butter. Runners, grown mainly in Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Texas and Oklahoma, account for 75 percent of total U.S. production

Virginia -Virginias have the largest kernels and account

for most of the peanuts roasted and eaten as inshells.

When shelled, the larger kernels are sold as salted

peanuts. Virginias are grown mainly in southeastern

Virginia and northeastern North Carolina. Virginia type

peanuts account for about 21 percent of total U.S. production

Spanish - Spanish type peanuts have smaller kernels covered with

a reddish-brown skin. They are used predominantly in peanut candy, with significant quantities used for salted nuts and peanut butter. They have a higher oil content than the other types of peanuts which is advantageous when crushing for oil. They are primarily grown in Oklahoma and Texas. Spanish type peanuts account for 4 percent of U.S. production

Valencia - Valencias usually have three or more small kernels to a pod. They are very sweet peanuts and are usually roasted and sold in the shell. They are excellent for fresh use as boiled peanuts. Valencias account for less than one percent of U.S. production and are grown mainly in New Mexico.

[Loom]

Sol,

Wife is from Kamphaeng Phet and the well-financed new farmers are putting in oranges, 50 rai a pop. Most land along the Ping there is planted with rice, sugar cane, bananas, mangos and flowers.

Been watching the rice market pretty closely. But it's regulated domestically which explains why prices are up only about 50% in Thailand while pricing has doubled in the international markets over the past three years or so. Improvements due to falling global inventory levels resulting in part from cutbacks in China.

I understand China may be trying to focus on more crops that are less water intensive than rice due to growing water shortages in the north. A shipping company I know is doing a lot of business with apple juice exports from China. So while rice looks like it'll hold up well, I'm always on the lookout for alternatives. And what to do with land in Chiangmai recently bought with the intention of eventually building. But there will still be ~15 rai left over after house goes up. Most of the locals in the area are asking 1m baht for farmland, but titled land goes down to the 300-400K range. Soybeans, rice, longans, and flowers seem to be popular down Mae rim way, but I'll take a closer look at tangerines.

Around wife's hometown, farmland is scarce. Locals have been bringing money home after working abroad and the large orange farmers are moving in. Prices for cleared land at or below the large plot you're looking at, so relatively inexpensive.

rgds,

[solent01]

Sol,

Wife is from Kamphaeng Phet and the well-financed new farmers are putting in oranges, 50 rai a pop.

Loom

Citrus farmers down and around your wifes area have the added danger of "Greening", the disease is primarily spread by two species of psyllid insects. They suck the sap from the tree thus spreading the disease, there is no cure other than rip the tree out and burn it, you can spray the orchard to help protect against it, but if you get an infection it can wipe the whole orchard out pretty much over a few nights. We are lucky, we don't suffer with this up here (yet), we mainly get "Thrips, African Red Fly and Catapiller" we spray every week for Thrips and African, and spray when needed for catapiller. The drainage is a big issue as Citrus trees are vulnerable to root rot, if this happens the tree again is no good and needs ripping out, and when it takes 3 1/2 to 4 years before the tree is mature enough to produce fruit on a commercial scale, you don't need to start ripping them out.

Sol

Edited September 1, 2006 by solent01

[Maizefarmer]

SOLENT 01

Well, you comprehensively answered the questions…….. but I want to know why you use sprinklers?

Would it not be an option to use high flow drippers – laid out in a circular pattern around each tree?

This is what I have in mind – main feed line running down the length of the orchid, off which branches smaller tubes to feed each row of trees. From these smaller tubes are even smaller tubes which feed a pattern of drippers laid out in a circle around each tree (the reason for each circle pattern around each tree would be to ensure water distribution to the spread out roots).

Why this idea – well, you could gravity feed such a system (you can purchase drippers in Thailand that are “self-regulated” – i.e. a dripper located 200meters from the main water feed will still output the same amount of water p/hour as the dripper located right at the start of the main feed – the idea is that irrespective of the differance in water pressure from the start of the irrigation system to the end, the volume of water that is fed to each tree remains the same across the orchid).

What’s the big advantage – you use less water (11 - 16 % of water delivered by sprinklers evaporates either in the air or on the ground before it soaks in), but most importantly – you do not need high pressure and therefore do not need a pump – and no pump running each day means no diesel fuel bill!

The materials for this system last much longer than sprinklers, and secondly, actually cost less to layout for any given area of land.

Overall it is cheaper and more efficient, it saves time, it delivers the water more accuartely, it uses less water, uses less maintanance labour, can be used to supply liquid fertiliser, nd most importantly of all - you won't have to maitain a pump or pay for diesel any more - and thats a big saving.

You already have the main feed lines in - so all you would have purchase now would be the small feed lines and the individual self - regulated drippers.

Now – having said all that, I may have missed something relivant i.e. perhaps there is a reason why sprinklers have to be used(?) - but if not, give this some thought – I’ll be happy to give you further info – and the components for everything to set something up like this are avalible off-the-shelf in Thailand (i.e. there is stock in Bangkok).

Tim

Edited September 1, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[udon]

Try buying Peanut (groundnut) oil in Thailand.

Virtually impossible to find.

I found one litre in fluffy Emporium...... once!

[solent01]

I only use sprinklers because thats the system that was already in place when I took over the Orchard. Never really given it much thought, but yes I agree with you drippers sound like I much better solution, anything that saves money can be considered a good idea. It costs around 4000 bht a month in fuel, not at the moment though obvously (getting too much water at the moment).

I would need to work out what volume of water the drippers can deliver though and then I will have a better idea of time scale for watering. interesting, worth looking at this in greater detail.

Sol

[Maizefarmer]

You can purchase drippers that will "drip" volumes as low as 2 or 3 litres an hour to drippers that will drip volumes as high as 200 - 300 litres an hour - and anything inbetween.

The idea is to select one that gives as much as possible - but so much that you start getting surface runoff.

Tim

[JungleBiker]

Hi Sol,

Thanks for the interesting information about growing tangerines (or mandarins as I call them).

I am curious to know what is the rough breakdown of your 60 - 70k monthly costs. I guess labour is the main cost followed by fertilizers and chemicals?

Are your trees propagated from budded rootstocks - in which case what rootstock do you use?

What do your young trees cost and where do you buy them?

About sprinklers versus drippers. I think you are using mini-sprinklers - one per tree - right? I understand that this is the system preferred by most growers in Thailand so I would have thought that if drippers were better in some way then most growers would be using drippers. I understand Tim's idea is to save energy by using gravity to feed the drippers but you would still need a pump if your water source is lower than your orchard. Perhaps Tim is thinking of a wind or solar pump to fill a tank from which the water would flow?

Finally, where/how did you learn how to grow tangerines? Do you have a background in horticulture?

Thanks!

[chownah]

Drippers require less pressure than sprinklers and this results in energy savings. Drippers deliver water more efficiently to the roots (less evaporation) and this results in energy savings.

Sprinklers create more evaporative cooling which is very beneficial to some crops...for instance lettuce. Sprinklers can be visually verified to be working properly very easily (just a quick look around) while verifiying that drippers are working requires much more effort.

Ditch irrigation requires the least investment and consumes no energy in some cases but it requires alot of water and ditch maintenance.

Drippers require the most capital investment, followed by sprinklers, and the least capital investment is ditch irrigation.

[phibunmike]

I would need to work out what volume of water the drippers can deliver though and then I will have a better idea of time scale for watering. interesting, worth looking at this in greater detail.

Sol

I have an irrigation and watering system catalogue (in Thai and English) from a company called "Super Products", it seems quite comprehensive, I picked mine up at the big hardware store Ubon, sure you can find it somewhere.

But maybe you are already way ahead of that...

Super Products

1785-9 Phaholyothin 31

Bangkok 10900

Tel: 662-930-3088

Fax: 662-513-0902

[email protected]

[solent01]

Hi Sol,

[/color]Hi JungleBiker

Thanks for the interesting information about growing tangerines (or mandarins as I call them).

No problem, just opening up more options to interested parties.

I'm curious to know what is the rough breakdown of your 60 - 70k monthly costs. I guess labour is the main cost followed by fertilizers and chemicals?

20k-25k labour (depending what needs doing), the rest on Fert's and Chem's

Are your trees propagated from budded rootstocks - in which case what rootstock do you use?

I think yes, Honey Queen rootstock, but the Orcard was already planted when I took over.

What do your young trees cost and where do you buy them?

I believe B20, but as I said, already planted

About sprinklers versus drippers. I think you are using mini-sprinklers - one per tree - right? I understand that this is the system preferred by most growers in Thailand so I would have thought that if drippers were better in some way then most growers would be using drippers. I understand Tim's idea is to save energy by using gravity to feed the drippers but you would still need a pump if your water source is lower than your orchard. Perhaps Tim is thinking of a wind or solar pump to fill a tank from which the water would flow?

Think your right, but since all the Visa announcements been too distracted to look into it with any real detail (not that I am effected as of yet with the Visa issues being mentioned)

Finally, where/how did you learn how to grow tangerines? Do you have a background in

horticulture?

I am a flying instructor by profession, so don't mind the pun... I'm winging it Before I put my money where my mouth was, I spent a year researching, plus with the help of some advicers, and some of the local farmers (who have been great, I am learning as I go, but it is looking good so far, will let you know how the first crop goes though.

Thanks!

Edited September 15, 2006 by solent01

[solent01]

I would need to work out what volume of water the drippers can deliver though and then I will have a better idea of time scale for watering. interesting, worth looking at this in greater detail.

Sol

I have an irrigation and watering system catalogue (in Thai and English) from a company called "Super Products", it seems quite comprehensive, I picked mine up at the big hardware store Ubon, sure you can find it somewhere.

But maybe you are already way ahead of that...

Super Products

1785-9 Phaholyothin 31

Bangkok 10900

Tel: 662-930-3088

Fax: 662-513-0902

[email protected]

Thanks Mike

Will drop them a mail for the Cat.

Sol

[JungleBiker]

I am a flying instructor by profession

Hi Sol,

Thanks for answering my questions.

Flying instructor – wow! When your orchard business is big enough you will be able to spray them with a plane!

You said earlier that the June crop gets the best prices and that this is achieved with “fertilizers, tonics, cow dung and a lot of careful pruning.” Can you give more details?

My guess is that the tonic and cow dung aren’t very important (more like old wives’ tales), unless the “tonic” is a plant hormone like Bonzi (paclobutrazol)? I think more important are the pruning and fertilizers. But the question is when do you prune, how much do you prune and what fertilizers do you apply?

The reason I ask is because I am working with lime farmers in Laos and they too are interested to get off-season fruit to reap higher prices. I expect that whatever techniques work for tangerines will also work for limes, though the timing may be different due to the different fruit maturation periods.

Cheers,

JungleBiker.