I'm innocent and afraid, says US man fighting extradition to Thailand in kidnap case

[Hawkup2000]

In Thailand, as in Mexico and other third world countries, you are guilty until proven innocent. You have no right to a trial by a jury of your peers, or any jury for that matter. Thailand is on many watch lists that originate in Washington. Thailand is well known for its corruption.

I resent that my government even made treaties with a third world corrupt government, to turn me and my fellow Americans over based on such limited "evidence" as sworn statements.

Sworn statements, as anyone in law enforcement will tell you, are often blatant lies.

A treaty between the UK and the US? Fine. The US and Australia or France. Okay.

Thailand? Hell no.

My sediments exactly. Why did Thailand hand over Victor Bout to USA who had a questionable agenda?

[Credo]

I

More tough talk from you without substance, though in general you show intelligence. Maybe the fact that this is an American has something to do with it.

The junta is not in charge of the courts there is still a division of power. Nothing has changed the guy would still have the same rights as when there was an other government in charge. If you say its not true please back up your claims or take them back.

There is no proof he is being setup, if there was the would use that instead of bogus torture claims.

As I said before no reports ever of Westerners getting tortured here.

So as long as they don't torture westerners, it's OK and the system is fair?

I think not.

[chuckd]

Amanda Knox went to trial. She was convicted. She served time. She was set free by the COURT IN ITALY. She was allowed to return to the US. If the Italians wished to re-try her, they should have kept her. Once she was allowed to return to the US, she will not be returned.

As for strong arming, European countries are pretty adamant about not extraditing to the US unless very specific conditions are met and the idea of being extradited for something that isn't a crime in the foreign country is one of them.

As far as the US protecting its own? Of course, that's what most gov'ts do.

Well said.

To back up your post, following is from the US/Italy Extradition Treaty...

"ARTICLE VI

Non Bis in Idem

Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested."

https://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/italy.pdf

[BKKBobby]

I

More tough talk from you without substance, though in general you show intelligence. Maybe the fact that this is an American has something to do with it.

The junta is not in charge of the courts there is still a division of power. Nothing has changed the guy would still have the same rights as when there was an other government in charge. If you say its not true please back up your claims or take them back.

There is no proof he is being setup, if there was the would use that instead of bogus torture claims.

As I said before no reports ever of Westerners getting tortured here.

So as long as they don't torture westerners, it's OK and the system is fair?

I think not.

So your opinion is that the rest of non-USA tourists and expats of Thailand shouldnt be tried in Thai courts according to Thai laws and Thai sentences which include death sentences as in USA even though they automatically gets turned into life sentences for Farangs?

Because of the excuse that Thailand is ruled by a non democratic leadership.

Or does it only apply to US tourists and expats in Thailand?

Edited March 26, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Robby nz]

Did any of you expect him to come out and say he is guilty whether he is or not ?

He is going to do and say everything he possibly can to avoid being returned to Thailand and tried.

I suspect there has been evidence presented along with a request for his extradition and it should be up to him to refute that evidence or present his own evidence of innocence, saying he is not guilty and scared hardly evidence of his innocence.

And yes this hearing is akin to a trial in the US for it makes an extremely important decision on his future.

No its not guilty until he can prove his innocence its a matter of both sides presenting evidence and a judge deciding which is the truth.

[robblok]

So as long as they don't torture westerners, it's OK and the system is fair?

I think not.

Did I say that.. the guy is using torture as an excuse to fight extradition. Instead he should fights it on the grounds that he is innocent. As he is not doing that.......

Edited March 26, 2015 by robblok

[Credo]

So as long as they don't torture westerners, it's OK and the system is fair?

I think not.

Did I say that.. the guy is using torture as an excuse to fight extradition. Instead he fights it on the grounds that he is innocent.

And torture has certainly been used in Thailand.

As for BkkBobby, I expect that if you are picked up in a foreign country, you will have to face the legal system in that country, whether it is death for smuggling drugs in Indonesia or smuggling in Bibles in NK. Do I think that someones home country should extradite them for those offenses, no, I don't.

I think people should be careful about what they do and where they travel though.

[robblok]

So as long as they don't torture westerners, it's OK and the system is fair?

I think not.

Did I say that.. the guy is using torture as an excuse to fight extradition. Instead he fights it on the grounds that he is innocent.

And torture has certainly been used in Thailand.

As for BkkBobby, I expect that if you are picked up in a foreign country, you will have to face the legal system in that country, whether it is death for smuggling drugs in Indonesia or smuggling in Bibles in NK. Do I think that someones home country should extradite them for those offenses, no, I don't.

I think people should be careful about what they do and where they travel though.

Proof please of it having been used on Westerners.. else its just BS defense. Just a link to news article of a Westerner being tortured or saying he has been tutored.

[Credo]

I didn't say Westerners. Torture has been used. No reason to believe it is confined to non-westerners.

You prove the opposite, please.

[BKKBobby]

I didn't say Westerners. Torture has been used. No reason to believe it is confined to non-westerners.

You prove the opposite, please.

Ok.

Then no foreigners should be dealt by Thai law system?

And the Thai law system was anyway flawed enough pre-Junta.

By the way you are more likely to get away with crime or get a slap on the wrist as a westerner in Thailand contrary to being innocently handed a prison sentence.

[Credo]

And with that you are acknowledging that the system is not fair.

[uptheos]

I thought this thread was about Shawn Abraham Shaw, not Amanda Knox or anyone else?

[BKKBobby]

And with that you are acknowledging that the system is not fair.

Yes.

I answer your response to my post with an honest answer.

Why cant you do the same and give me an answer to the question I asked you in my post you are replying to?

Edited March 26, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Credo]

You might want to start with this link:

http://www.danwhite.org/Html_low_res/Hard_Time_in_the_big_tiger.htm

[BKKBobby]

You might want to start with this link:

http://www.danwhite.org/Html_low_res/Hard_Time_in_the_big_tiger.htm

Your still convienantly avoiding to answer my question directed at you.

I gave an honest answer to your question.

Edited March 26, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Credo]

I don't know what question is left unanswered. It seems like you simply want to argue.

Does torture exist? Yes. Are Westerners tortured? Yes.

Should foreigners be dealt with by Thai courts? Yes, particularly if they break the law in the country.

Should they be extradited? Depends on the situation, just like in every other country and every other case.

[BKKBobby]

I don't know what question is left unanswered. It seems like you simply want to argue.

Does torture exist? Yes. Are Westerners tortured? Yes.

Should foreigners be dealt with by Thai courts? Yes, particularly if they break the law in the country.

Should they be extradited? Depends on the situation, just like in every other country and every other case.

Question answered. Sorry if I came across as only wanting to argue.

[winstonc]

extradition treaties are a two way street that America needs to respect.

Aren't you forgetting that the West sees Thailand's current government as illegal and illegitimate and lacking standing to try anyone?

Thailand's coup installed "government" has no treaty with anyone.

???? what sort of answer is that to the PART POST you just quoted..forget the alamo and move on cowboy...

[Suradit69]

I don't know any of the facts in this case, but I'm pretty sure the Florida prosecuting authorities do not realise how very plausible this defendants story is in a Thailand scenario..................as far-fetched as it might sound in most Western countries.

"..as far-fetched as it might sound in most Western countries."

Another farang living in a bubble. Many people have been falsely convicted and even executed because of police incompetence & corruption or false testimony in western countries.

If people are free to kidnap or murder in Thailand and then run to a supposed safe-haven in the west where they plead that they are innocent and afraid, that's just ensuring that anyone who commits a premeditated crime here will have his flight out of the country booked ahead of time and a taxi waiting to take him to the airport as soon as the deed is done.

No criminal justice system is perfect, and fallibility leads to miscarriages of justice. Even when all the standards for a fair trial are upheld, wrongful convictions can occur. Many countries that practice capital punishment, however, do not meet these standards. For instance, in Japan, the prosecution’s failure to disclose exculpatory evidence has led to a number of wrongful convictions[1]. In India, prosecutorial misconduct has also led to several high profile cases of wrongful convictions[2]. In China and the United States, torture and police misconduct have contributed to the conviction of innocent persons[3]. Inadequate legal representation, shoddy police investigations, eyewitness misidentification, racial prejudice, and falsified evidence are additional factors that contribute to wrongful convictions around the world.

In the United States alone, 143 people have been released from death row since 1973 on grounds of innocence[4]

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/wrongful-convictions.cfm

Edited March 26, 2015 by Suradit69

[Always18]

I don't know any of the facts in this case, but I'm pretty sure the Florida prosecuting authorities do not realise how very plausible this defendants story is in a Thailand scenario..................as far-fetched as it might sound in most Western countries.

"..as far-fetched as it might sound in most Western countries."

Another farang living in a bubble. Many people have been falsely convicted and even executed because of police incompetence & corruption or false testimony in western countries.

If people are free to kidnap or murder in Thailand and then run to a supposed safe-haven in the west where they plead that they are innocent and afraid, that's just ensuring that anyone who commits a premeditated crime here will have his flight out of the country booked ahead of time and a taxi waiting to take him to the airport as soon as the deed is done.

No criminal justice system is perfect, and fallibility leads to miscarriages of justice. Even when all the standards for a fair trial are upheld, wrongful convictions can occur. Many countries that practice capital punishment, however, do not meet these standards. For instance, in Japan, the prosecution’s failure to disclose exculpatory evidence has led to a number of wrongful convictions[1]. In India, prosecutorial misconduct has also led to several high profile cases of wrongful convictions[2]. In China and the United States, torture and police misconduct have contributed to the conviction of innocent persons[3]. Inadequate legal representation, shoddy police investigations, eyewitness misidentification, racial prejudice, and falsified evidence are additional factors that contribute to wrongful convictions around the world.

In the United States alone, 143 people have been released from death row since 1973 on grounds of innocence[4]

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/wrongful-convictions.cfm

Please try to keep up Suradit - reading and understanding others postings are the usual prerequisites for relevant comments........

Edited March 26, 2015 by Always18

[Jim walker]

Do the crime and do the time, don't worry the soldier boys will look after you at the military court come on over no worries about Thailand justice system its the best in the world if you are rich.

[MaeJoMTB]

There are NO reports of foreigners being tortured. The guy could be real guilty and just putting up a show.

I can understand the sentiment if it was about political activists as currently there are claims. But foreigners.. especially Americans... no way.

The two Burmese guys accused in the Koh Tao murders are reporting being tortured.

As far as I can remember, Burmese are foreigners in Thailand.

[jdinasia]

So you go and commit a murder in Thailand.. escape to the US and are free.. crazy. Not all Americans are not guilty. You got scum there too same as any other country. Same as my country.

There are NO reports of foreigners being tortured. The guy could be real guilty and just putting up a show.

I can understand the sentiment if it was about political activists as currently there are claims. But foreigners.. especially Americans... no way.

Are there cases of lying cops in the USA sure.. does that stop other countries handing over people to them based on flimsy evidence.. no.

Then you got Amanda Knox.. guilty by the highest Italian court but the US decides not to extradite because they think a few years in jail was enough. Just shows the bias of the US system. That is why I cry foul.

If the Thais have good evidence.. send him over.. claims of torture of westerners are B.S.

"Then you got Amanda Knox.. guilty by the highest Italian court but the US decides not to extradite because they think a few years in jail was enough. Just shows the bias of the US system. That is why I cry foul."

This is one place we strongly differ. Most countries won't hand someone over if their rights in their own country would be violated. Countries which don't have a death penalty usually won't hand someone over to a country which might likely execute one of their citizens.

The US has a strong Constitutional guarantee against double jeopardy. You can't be tried twice for the same crime. HC made a nice post to explain Knox.

A military coup is illegal the world over and the leader seen as illegitimate, having no right to try anyone. I don't see any Western country turning one of its citizens over to that system.

Wrong on all counts.

Diplomatic relations between the US and Thailand are a bit strained but still considered normal.

The reason that the US might not hand Amanda Knox over to the Italian Judiciary is that there's a clause in the extradition treaty (which was signed by Italy too- so they can't cry about it) which may protect her. It is not cut and dried either way.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

[jdinasia]

Do the crime and do the time, don't worry the soldier boys will look after you at the military court come on over no worries about Thailand justice system its the best in the world if you are rich.

Non Sequitur

The case would be heard in a criminal court, not a military court.

[oxo1947]

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

So they should send him over to a Thai prison if Yingluck was in power....??

.

...some of your anti Thai posts...........curiouser & curiouser

[jdinasia]

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

So they should send him over to a Thai prison if Yingluck was in power....??

.

...some of your anti Thai posts...........curiouser & curiouser

Yes, they should hand him over regardless.

[Jimbolai]

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Just look at the figures in countries handing over their people to the USA and vice versa.. you will see what I mean.

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

Typical American reaction.. hand us over anyone we want.. but vice versa.. no no no.

Real arrogant attitude.

I can still remember the Dutch people ticked in the US and extradited. The Netherlands should never again send anyone to the US untll they clean up their act.

.

Typical Dutch arrogance: assume facts not in evidence, and make unwarranted attacks on other posters.

NeverSure never said other countries should hand over everyone the US government demands;

NeverSure is not the US government. So don't blame him for the sins of his government.

Remember the killer Amanda Knox.

Not saying the US should hand over everyone to Thailand... but in ways of treaties and such.. the USA is severely lacking.

Of course you mean

Remember Amanda Knox found innocent and released and returned home? How many times do they get to torture someone by dragging one into court and when found innocent just start it all over again. The Italians are showing they have not become civilized since they had innocents thrown to the lions in the colluseums. What a disgusting lot. Boycott Anything Italian. No more Italian anything .

[BKKBobby]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Just look at the figures in countries handing over their people to the USA and vice versa.. you will see what I mean.

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

Typical American reaction.. hand us over anyone we want.. but vice versa.. no no no.

Real arrogant attitude.

I can still remember the Dutch people ticked in the US and extradited. The Netherlands should never again send anyone to the US untll they clean up their act.

.

Typical Dutch arrogance: assume facts not in evidence, and make unwarranted attacks on other posters.

NeverSure never said other countries should hand over everyone the US government demands;

NeverSure is not the US government. So don't blame him for the sins of his government.

Remember the killer Amanda Knox.

Not saying the US should hand over everyone to Thailand... but in ways of treaties and such.. the USA is severely lacking.

Of course you mean

Remember Amanda Knox found innocent and released and returned home? How many times do they get to torture someone by dragging one into court and when found innocent just start it all over again. The Italians are showing they have not become civilized since they had innocents thrown to the lions in the colluseums. What a disgusting lot. Boycott Anything Italian. No more Italian anything .

Amanda Knox is a sick twistee psycho and should be locked up in prison right now.

But yes, shes a cute American-pie, ill give you that.

[SaamBaht]

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

Typical American reaction.. hand us over anyone we want.. but vice versa.. no no no.

Real arrogant attitude.

I can still remember the Dutch people ticked in the US and extradited. The Netherlands should never again send anyone to the US untll they clean up their act.

So, robblok, you'd like to see a man turned over to a military dictatorship, where justice is cloaked in absolute secrecy? Yet, you take issue with accused criminals being sent to a country where elections, liberty, and due process are the guiding principles for two hundred plus years?

Are you aware how many U.S. Generals are fired annually? Bet not.

By the way, the victim in this case, the man who was supposedly kidnapped, didn't report the incident for more than forty days after is was supposed to have occurred. That's just one of the questionable facts in the case we might start dubbing the IOU Kidnapper, because the supposed perpetrator allowed his victim to walk free on a promise to pay the ransom later.

robblok, you are a piece of work, aren't ya?

Edited March 26, 2015 by SaamBaht

[BKKBobby]

They simply must not turn him over. Even a foreigner would get refugee status over this with Thailand's current situation.

Typical American reaction.. hand us over anyone we want.. but vice versa.. no no no.

Real arrogant attitude.

I can still remember the Dutch people ticked in the US and extradited. The Netherlands should never again send anyone to the US untll they clean up their act.

So, robblok, you'd like to see a man turned over to a military dictatorship, where justice is cloaked in absolute secrecy? Yet, you take issue with accused criminals being sent to a country where elections, liberty, and due process are the guiding principles for two hundred plus years?

Are you aware how many U.S. Generals are fired annually? Bet not.

By the way, the victim in this case, the man who was supposedly kidnapped, didn't report the incident for more than forty days after is was supposed to have occurred. That's just one of the questionable facts in the case we might start dubbing the IOU Kidnapper, because the supposed perpetrator allowed his victim to walk free on a promise to pay the ransom later.

robblok, you are a piece of work, aren't ya?

I agree to send Swedish citizens suspected and wanted for crimes in the US to US if theres a guarantee that they wont get the death penalty. Even though I consider some of the American laws to be draconian and that US hands out unproportionally long prison sentences sometimes, by Swedish standards.

Im Swedish.

Edited March 26, 2015 by BKKBobby