Blacklisting

[nithisa78]

I was just at Bangkok Immigration and they had a huge sign, stating the severe overstay penalties, blacklisting times etc.

Now, people here are saying these rules are not in effect?

overstay v.jpg overstay a.jpg

I think some people have come to believe that an "Overstay" is just another type of visa.

"What kind of visa do you have? Non B?, Non O? ED?"

"No, I am here on a Overstay Visa!"

" It only cost me 20,000 Baht!"

I don't care for your posting style. I do appreciate UbonJoe trying to help the guy.

Cheers

Praise ubonjoe, agreed.

[paz]

I agree there can, in general be little excuse for overstay.

The penalty of a max of 20,000 Bht is very lenient and in my opinion should be removed.

182.500 Baht /year fine would rapidly change the overstayers mind set as inability to pay would result in a long period of incarceration !

That would be ridiculous. Civilized countries punish overstay or illegal immigration by reasonable fine, bans or deportation. Immigration violations are not drug trafficking and that is universally understood. What Thailand does with the IDC treatment is already borderline to human rights violation. If they were to make it worst s some country would complain, exploiter employers would have trouble recruiting from nearby countries, and Thailand would have to back off.

[farangdave]

I know someone that went to immigration, this past Tuesday and paid ฿ 20,000, plus an extra 10,000 (4 years overstay). They threatened to lock him up or pay the extra. He choose the extra, and is now legal again. (this isn't bull!)

Thanks for the warning, I'll fly out and when I do I'll take some spare cash with me.

Edited March 28, 2015 by farangdave

[elviajero]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport, including at the countless road check points that I've been stopped at, so the risk of getting caught on an overstay seems very small. And although Thai immigration is applying the law the penalties aren't a deterrent so overstaying will continue until something changes.

There maybe genuine reasons for short overstays, but in my opinion all, but a few, are staying through choice because the system doesn't penalise them not to. The OP has indicated his concern about a 1 year ban, and I bet his decision to overstay would have been different if this ban was being enforced. Sure some people wouldn't surrender and just carry on living here until caught, but I believe bans or higher fines are the only way to reduce the number of overstayers.

It also seems that Thailand doesn't consider overstaying a problem otherwise she'd have brought in effective deterrents years ago. The fact that they do, and haven't, is a kick in the teeth for those of us that stay legal and respect the rules to be allowed to stay here.

Overstayers annoy me, but what really annoys me is that immigration let them get away with it. I have always asked me to jump through hoops, play by the rules, and shell out thousands of baht to stay here, which I've done. But when immigration get hold of long overstayers they apply a paltry fine and let them repeat as required.

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

[farangdave]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport, including at the countless road check points that I've been stopped at, so the risk of getting caught on an overstay seems very small. And although Thai immigration is applying the law the penalties aren't a deterrent so overstaying will continue until something changes.

There maybe genuine reasons for short overstays, but in my opinion all, but a few, are staying through choice because the system doesn't penalise them not to. The OP has indicated his concern about a 1 year ban, and I bet his decision to overstay would have been different if this ban was being enforced. Sure some people wouldn't surrender and just carry on living here until caught, but I believe bans or higher fines are the only way to reduce the number of overstayers.

It also seems that Thailand doesn't consider overstaying a problem otherwise she'd have brought in effective deterrents years ago. The fact that they do, and haven't, is a kick in the teeth for those of us that stay legal and respect the rules to be allowed to stay here.

Overstayers annoy me, but what really annoys me is that immigration let them get away with it. I have always asked me to jump through hoops, play by the rules, and shell out thousands of baht to stay here, which I've done. But when immigration get hold of long overstayers they apply a paltry fine and let them repeat as required.

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

You're absoluting right in everything you say. They have made it a viable option and, I probably do deserve to get banned, but I love this country and it's people, and it's been harder and harder to stay here legally. I'm really hoping that I get a chance to get myself legal, otherwise I will take myself and my money to Cambodia.

Good rant btw

[paz]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

How can be a win win. You have been legal, the other person didn't and can go to jail any time. There are various circumstances that can lead to be apprehended, of which traffic checkpoints is not one really. Also it seems you had enough money to stay legally, yet you worry about a small difference calculated per year!

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

Bitter about other people issues ... tsk tsk... If you want to be twisted about injustice, look elsewhere, there is a ton in this world. Even if there where no overstayers, your legal stay would be of the same difficulty. Find something else to rant about.

[gandalf12]

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I agree there can, in general be little excuse for overstay.

The penalty of a max of 20,000 Bht is very lenient and in my opinion should be removed.

182.500 Baht /year fine would rapidly change the overstayers mind set as inability to pay would result in a long period of incarceration ! alt=biggrin.png>

That would be ridiculous. Civilized countries punish overstay or illegal immigration by reasonable fine, bans or deportation. Immigration violations are not drug trafficking and that is universally understood. What Thailand does with the IDC treatment is already borderline to human rights violation. If they were to make it worst s some country would complain, exploiter employers would have trouble recruiting from nearby countries, and Thailand would have to back off.

WHat does Human rights have to do with this topic? I think you have lost the plot. Increased fines or deportation, what do you think is better?

[elviajero]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport, including at the countless road check points that I've been stopped at, so the risk of getting caught on an overstay seems very small. And although Thai immigration is applying the law the penalties aren't a deterrent so overstaying will continue until something changes.

There maybe genuine reasons for short overstays, but in my opinion all, but a few, are staying through choice because the system doesn't penalise them not to. The OP has indicated his concern about a 1 year ban, and I bet his decision to overstay would have been different if this ban was being enforced. Sure some people wouldn't surrender and just carry on living here until caught, but I believe bans or higher fines are the only way to reduce the number of overstayers.

It also seems that Thailand doesn't consider overstaying a problem otherwise she'd have brought in effective deterrents years ago. The fact that they do, and haven't, is a kick in the teeth for those of us that stay legal and respect the rules to be allowed to stay here.

Overstayers annoy me, but what really annoys me is that immigration let them get away with it. I have always asked me to jump through hoops, play by the rules, and shell out thousands of baht to stay here, which I've done. But when immigration get hold of long overstayers they apply a paltry fine and let them repeat as required.

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

You're absoluting right in everything you say. They have made it a viable option and, I probably do deserve to get banned, but I love this country and it's people, and it's been harder and harder to stay here legally. I'm really hoping that I get a chance to get myself legal, otherwise I will take myself and my money to Cambodia.

Good rant btw

I hope you understand that my rant wasn't personal. It's the system I have a problem with.

Thanks for your honesty, and I hope things work out for you.

[paz]

WHat does Human rights have to do with this topic? I think you have lost the plot. Increased fines or deportation, what do you think is better?

When one is kept in jal (called IDC) because you can't pay an unreasonable fine, or detained indefinitely because nobody pays a ticket home, that is an blatant human rights violation. And no, the fact that each country man make their laws doen't change that - countries and governments are the biggest violators of human rights.

[willyumiii]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport, including at the countless road check points that I've been stopped at, so the risk of getting caught on an overstay seems very small. And although Thai immigration is applying the law the penalties aren't a deterrent so overstaying will continue until something changes.

There maybe genuine reasons for short overstays, but in my opinion all, but a few, are staying through choice because the system doesn't penalise them not to. The OP has indicated his concern about a 1 year ban, and I bet his decision to overstay would have been different if this ban was being enforced. Sure some people wouldn't surrender and just carry on living here until caught, but I believe bans or higher fines are the only way to reduce the number of overstayers.

It also seems that Thailand doesn't consider overstaying a problem otherwise she'd have brought in effective deterrents years ago. The fact that they do, and haven't, is a kick in the teeth for those of us that stay legal and respect the rules to be allowed to stay here.

Overstayers annoy me, but what really annoys me is that immigration let them get away with it. I have always asked me to jump through hoops, play by the rules, and shell out thousands of baht to stay here, which I've done. But when immigration get hold of long overstayers they apply a paltry fine and let them repeat as required.

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

"In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport,"

So, you have been here over eight years and never stayed in a hotel?

I find that difficult to believe.

I have never registered in a hotel in Thailand without being asked for my passport.

Your post is suspect.

[paz]

"In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport,"

So, you have been here over eight years and never stayed in a hotel?

I find that difficult to believe.

I have never registered in a hotel in Thailand without being asked for my passport.

Hotel stay is also irrelevant.

if one goes to an hotel while on overstay they do not have an obligation to summon Immigration police. If they notice that, they can however refuse accommodation.

Edited March 28, 2015 by paz

[elviajero]

I spent my first 8 years here on various visa types all involving exiting the country every 90 days, which I did, without overstaying, and at considerable cost. But now I question why I didn't just use the system. I could possibly have got away with 8 years for 20,000 Baht. That's a bargain at 2,500 per year. A huge financial saving and no punishment. Win win.

In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport, including at the countless road check points that I've been stopped at, so the risk of getting caught on an overstay seems very small. And although Thai immigration is applying the law the penalties aren't a deterrent so overstaying will continue until something changes.

There maybe genuine reasons for short overstays, but in my opinion all, but a few, are staying through choice because the system doesn't penalise them not to. The OP has indicated his concern about a 1 year ban, and I bet his decision to overstay would have been different if this ban was being enforced. Sure some people wouldn't surrender and just carry on living here until caught, but I believe bans or higher fines are the only way to reduce the number of overstayers.

It also seems that Thailand doesn't consider overstaying a problem otherwise she'd have brought in effective deterrents years ago. The fact that they do, and haven't, is a kick in the teeth for those of us that stay legal and respect the rules to be allowed to stay here.

Overstayers annoy me, but what really annoys me is that immigration let them get away with it. I have always asked me to jump through hoops, play by the rules, and shell out thousands of baht to stay here, which I've done. But when immigration get hold of long overstayers they apply a paltry fine and let them repeat as required.

A genuine justifiable reason for a 10 month overstay. Nah! Is 20k a big enough fine? Nope. Should he be banned for a year? Yep. Should an alien that voluntarily broke the law for 10 months be allowed to own a business when it's illegal for a husband to help his wife set up a market stall? OMG no. Am I bitter and twisted about the situation? Yep. Am I justified? Hell Yes!!

"In all my years here I've never once been asked to produce my passport,"

So, you have been here over eight years and never stayed in a hotel?

I find that difficult to believe.

I have never registered in a hotel in Thailand without being asked for my passport.

Your post is suspect.

I'd have thought It would be obvious that I was referring to being asked by the police to produce my passport.

As far as hotels are concerned I believe they just require ID. A passport can be used as ID, but the hotel are not obliged to report an overstayer.

I never use my passport to check in to a hotel. I use my Thai driving licence.

Suspect!!?

[philw]

Why are people so intent on putting down over stayers?

Cos it's wrong, illegal and reflects badly on the rest of us who somehow do manage to obey immigration law, it's not hard.

Can you explain, in detail, how it reflects badly ??

What's not hard ?

[Mario2008]

Hotels are required to report foreigners staying at their hotel to immigration, including details about their passport and visa.

[chrisinth]

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Hmm
Breaking the law and knowingly over staying a visa in any country is an offence. If people are honest and do the right thing then it makes it easier for everyone. Do the crime expect the consequences. No sympathy here and if you set up business in Thailand conduct your business with honesty and integrity.
let us know your reasons for overstay.if it is so genuine then I'm sure someone will listen.

There is of course a slightly different slant on the arguments about overstay here in Thailand.

Overstay has always (in recent history anyway) been an offence here. However, for decades (yes, multiples of ten years) it was a 'lenient' law and considered by both immigration, and a certain faction of 'visitors', to be a normal action to pay your 20,000 baht, leave the country and start over again if that was their want. Generally, these people harmed nobody but themselves and those closest to them. The risks of getting arrested and going through the immigration detention method were always there as well. Nothing Has Changed.

A proposal was made last year to include bans, according to the length of overstay, but that is all it was, a proposal that has not been, as yet, passed and no changes have been made to the immigration laws that would allow this to be implemented.

IMHO (and it is only my opinion), the clampdown on overstays and visas we have been seeing recently are more about immigrant control, ie, a better knowledge of who is in the country, for how long and where they are staying and that the data will not just go into the immigration database but be shared with police/military/anti-terrorist databases as well.

In the world we find ourselves in now, I don't think that people on overstay, or even people abusing the visa system are the top end problems faced by those in control.

[lee b]

Even though we complain about visa runs etc here, I never understand why anyone would overstay, especally for such a long period. I would not be able to sleep at night incase of a bang on the front door !!

[ericthai]

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As stated the 1 year ban never went into effect. Those changes are still waiting to be approved and implemented.

As advised by the most knowledgeable person on Thai Visa about visas Mr. Ubonjoe it's best to fly out, less chance of getting caught on overstay.

You can fly to Cambodia and return the same day if you want.

I'm not trying to scare you but if you are caught by immigration prior to leaving Thailand

you will be detained in immigration detention until you can pay the 20,000B and have a plane ticket out of Thailand. If i were you i would leave ASAP, also prior to your return I would get a tourist visa and have 10,000B cash on hand when returning. If possible get a Non-B visa if you already did all the paper work for opening a company.

Good luck!!

Correction !

If caught by immigration, military or the police the OP will enjoy the consequences of his actions !

Not necessarily, It all depends if the police ask to see your passport. In the last 20+ years I have never been asked by the police for my passport and only once by the military which I didn't have my passport with me and showed them my work permit. It all comes down to luck..or no luck.

[NeverSure]

Amazing. The guy asks a question, for which several posts later he says he'd rather not discuss the reasons.

Exactly 7 minutes after he opened the thread, Ubonjoe gave a complete and definitive answer to his question including advice that he flies out.

The thread should have closed right there but we have 4 pages of TVFers - oh nevermind.

Thanks Joe. You're always the best in any subforum on TVF.

[F4UCorsair]

I hope that you do better on your bussines than you did on your visa.

l

Agreed dutchisaan. It's difficult to imagine someone who isn't sufficiently organized to have a current visa being sufficiently organized to start a business.......any business!

Neversure, I agree with you, but how does somebofy overstay a week, let alone ten months??? I think they should be reminded of their stupidity.

Right again on ubonjo. His advice is aleays welcome.

Edited March 28, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[Maestro]

Removed an abusive post.

[jamesjohnsonthird]

Very strange that Immigration has a 2 meter high sign, right outside the Immigration front door, stating the new blacklisting rules but according to UbonJoe it is nonsence.

I believe UbonJoe but why the hell is that new sign at Immigration stating the opposite?

[paz]

Very strange that Immigration has a 2 meter high sign, right outside the Immigration front door, stating the new blacklisting rules but according to UbonJoe it is nonsence.

I believe UbonJoe but why the hell is that new sign at Immigration stating the opposite?

Because someone at that office tough that it was a good idea, while other offices do not bother copying the form anymore.

Similarly we learned today that the speed limit signs in Phuket are "not mandatory".

Confirmation: No reports about anyone banned for overstay. Multiple reports of people clearing long overstay and returning.

[PeCeDe]

Why are people so intent on putting down over stayers?

There was no reason given for his over stay ... could have been health concerns or one of many reasons

Not everyone is perfect like willyunii but the constant bashing is a pointless useless waste of time and effort

and produces nothing valid and gives no use full information to the OP

"Why are people so intent on putting down over stayers?"

Because quite often the people who abuse the system end up causing grief for others, as has been the case with the abuse of visa exempt entries or misuse of education visas or disregard for "must leave by dates" leading to possibly more onerous consequences for anyone else who overstays for even a short time.

Why are some people so intent on creating imaginary excuses for people who can't comply with fairly simple rules? Extensions are available for people who can't travel for legitimate medical reasons.

I agree abuse of the system creates problems for others. Having said that, however, the system itself is subject to wildly different interpretations by officialdom.

I had extensive dental work done, which ran into overtime on my visa. Even with a letter from RAM Hospital in Chiang Mai, no amount of pleading could get me an extension - basically, I had to be in a wheelchair or photographed in a hospital bed to be successful.

You had problems probably because of the very reasons people are commenting on, Farang who break the law here make it worse for everyone.

[gemguy]

Why are people so intent on putting down over stayers?

There was no reason given for his over stay ... could have been health concerns or one of many reasons

Not everyone is perfect like willyunii but the constant bashing is a pointless useless waste of time and effort

and produces nothing valid and gives no use full information to the OP

Have to agree ...fully agree.....

Overstay....woooooo....big crime......absolutely needing to be policed with heavy handed authority while all too many perfect citizens ,Thai Visa members, just have to post their condemning comments while they gloat over another persons situation.

You see it all the time and it is fairly consistent coming from certain members.

Cheers

[willyumiii]

Is it only here on TV, or does the whole world now believe that complying with the law is a bad thing?

Silly me!

I had no idea!

[willyumiii]

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As stated the 1 year ban never went into effect. Those changes are still waiting to be approved and implemented.

As advised by the most knowledgeable person on Thai Visa about visas Mr. Ubonjoe it's best to fly out, less chance of getting caught on overstay.

You can fly to Cambodia and return the same day if you want.

I'm not trying to scare you but if you are caught by immigration prior to leaving Thailand

you will be detained in immigration detention until you can pay the 20,000B and have a plane ticket out of Thailand. If i were you i would leave ASAP, also prior to your return I would get a tourist visa and have 10,000B cash on hand when returning. If possible get a Non-B visa if you already did all the paper work for opening a company.

Good luck!!

Correction !

If caught by immigration, military or the police the OP will enjoy the consequences of his actions !

Not necessarily, It all depends if the police ask to see your passport. In the last 20+ years I have never been asked by the police for my passport and only once by the military which I didn't have my passport with me and showed them my work permit. It all comes down to luck..or no luck.

It does happen.

Once while taking a taxi from Bangkok to Korat, the cab broke down.

The police arrived shortly.

The first thing they asked was to see my passport.

It may not happen often, but it does happen.

[thaibreaker]

Very strange that Immigration has a 2 meter high sign, right outside the Immigration front door, stating the new blacklisting rules but according to UbonJoe it is nonsence.

I believe UbonJoe but why the hell is that new sign at Immigration stating the opposite?

Because someone at that office tough that it was a good idea, while other offices do not bother copying the form anymore.

Similarly we learned today that the speed limit signs in Phuket are "not mandatory".

Confirmation: No reports about anyone banned for overstay. Multiple reports of people clearing long overstay and returning.

And to take it one step further, the people deported out of the country from IDC (after coming up with their own ticket), not even they are being blacklisted. Even after overstaying for years. Unless you have a record of repeatedly long overstays, and/or a more severe record of any other kind.

[maidee]

more than 3 months is already worth a year ban

i had to sign paper that i know the new rules, before getting my 30 day "under consideration" stamp

[Mario2008]

Many offices make you sign that, but it isn't in effect (yet).