Visa Refused!

[MAL2004]

I recently got married in Thailand to my girlfriend who is a Thai national. Unfortunately I'm still having to work in the UK for several months and would like my wife to stay with me while I'm in England. She applied for a 'non immigrant visa' approx 2 weeks after we were married in February this year. After two visits to the UK embassy and much waiting, she finally got an appointment to see an Entry Clearance Officer only to be told that she could not enter the UK as they were not satisfied that she would be a genuine visitor. This totally pissed me off as you may imagine and she was also very upset as I had to return to England without her.

We met originally over the internet on a dating site and communicated mostly using that sites chat program until we arranged to meet last November. We got on so well that we decided to get married as soon as possible.

Since November 2003, I have spent most of my time in Thailand with my wife as I don't have to work much in England's winter months. We have stayed mostly in hotels and more recently with members of her family in Phuket but have not kept hotel receipts etc.

The ECO at the embassy said he was not satisfied due to her not being able to provide evidence of our relationship that pre-dates Oct 2003. All she could show them was 2 emails making arrangements to meet for what was the first time and a copy of my UK phone bill showing evidence of some calls to Thailand.

The ECO was also concerned that we both had substantial sums of money that had recently been deposited in our bank accounts and wrote the following comments on the report:

"I cannot be satisfied that this money has been made available solely to facilitate your application. I am not satisfied that it will be available to you in the UK or that you will be able to maintain and support yourself without recourse to public funds.

Overall, given such sparse evidence presented with your application, and the doubt on the length of time you have known each other, I cannot be satisfied that you will be a genuine visitor and that you will intend to leave on completion of your visit"

My wife took as much evidence as we could get together at the time. This included passports, marriage cert, photos, emails, phone bills, bank statements etc

She only applied to visit England for one month and has no intention whatsoever of living there, claiming benefits or going on the game. As soon as my work is finished in England, we intend to live in Thailand between September and April each year.

I will be returning to Bangkok at the end of April this year for only one week in order to try another application for her (this time for around five months stay in England as I will be too busy to travel again until after the summer)

I have recently sold my house in England and intend to send my wife enough money to buy some land for building house in the near future.

If anyone has been in a similar situation and knows anything else we can do, that may help, please let me know as It is driving us both mad being so far apart.

Is a non-immigrant visa to travel as a visitor the right one to go for in our case or would it be easier to obtain entry clearance using another kind.

[asinah]

Hi,

Sorry to hear what happened but I guess the main reason could be that the Uk and the EU in general are no more willing to allow Thai womans to be send as mailorder brides. (Sorry for that wording but that's what the embassies are thinking off)

It isn't only Thailand. It is all over Asia and South Asia.

Maybe once you come you can solve that by following her to the embassy as she has virtually no chance of applying on her own.

The embassy sees it from this point ! You met a couple of month ago via the internet, got quickly married so that she can taste a better life.

If you don't have the receipts for the hotels you can contact the hotel again and tell them you lost the bills but you need it because you have to claim it from the company. They will issue you the receipts again.

There are thousands of Thai females on the web that want to marry a European guy. So if you marry a Thai maybe stay here with her for the first few years and once you are married for a few years it is very simple to bring her into Europe.

Then also no one at the embassy would think that you just ordered yourself a bride from the internet.

Good luck

[Pink Mist]

A relationship of at least 6 months would get you a bit of credibility, 1 year much better. You simply must have those emails, phone records and letters from her.

You have to convince the officer that you are in a genuine relationship and not some sort of scam,the stage has been set many times before and now you suffer the consequences of your predecessors.

Good luck and get as much evidence as you can to prove your genuine relationship

Graeme

[MAL2004]

Thanks for the advice asinah, but living permanently in Thailand is not an option for me at the moment. However I do not wish to live in England any longer than I have to, and will only be there for work purposes only. I will no longer have a permanent residence in the UK after this month and will soon have to rent a house or flat so that if my wife can come to England on holiday, we will have somewhere to stay for the summer. After then I don't really care about England anymore as we can live in Thailand together with no problems while having our house built there. All we want is to be free to travel together as a normal married couple with little or no restrictions. Getting replacement hotel receipts, is not practical or easy for us now as we travelled extensively around Thailand together and cannot remember all the places that we stayed in.

[pnustedt]

Sorry to hear your bad news also.

Learn from the experience - next time you will hopefully have had the money in the bank for a longer period which may give the ECO more confidence. Hopefully you are now keeping records of phone calls, e-mails, money transfers, etc. to your wife.

One of his main concerns will be that your wife will not return to Thailand in accordance with the terms of the visa - can she demonstrate some compelling reason to return - a job, family to care for, Uni. course or something?

Also, if you were unemployed at the time of the application it could have affected the ECO's thinking. Can you show an employment history which would give you more credibility?

Could you not spend more time with your wife in April - just one week after several months apart could also raise suspicions?

Anyway I wish you luck - I think you need it as looking at your case from the officers' eyes it could appear dubious.

[taxexile]

sorry to hear about your predicament , its all too common. try to get into the uk as a genuine case willing to support yourself and live your life and they will turn you away.

perhaps your wife should claim political asylum there, then she would be given housing,furniture,benefits,interpreters,access to the health system.etc.etc.

keep trying and good luck.

[MAL2004]

perhaps your wife should claim political asylum there, then she would be given housing,furniture,benefits,interpreters,access to the health system.etc.etc.

You're dead right there, my hometown is becoming full up with asylum seekers who have no intention of supporting themselves, but still the UK government allows them to enter the country with no apparant difficulty and even gives them two or three thousand quid to get them started. What a shit country to allow this sort of thing to carry on. One reason why I no longer wish to be part of it. My wife has to much pride in herself to become a scrounger and would not dream of it. I also forgot to mention that she has a job in Thailand and money to support herself without my help. I just thought it might be quicker to get visa if I can act as her sponsor in the UK.

[pnustedt]

I also forgot to mention that she has a job in Thailand and money to support herself without my help.

Compelling reason to return to Thailand is VERY important. Hopefully you'll have better luck next time.

[wcr]

Without sounding hard hearted, but what do you expect? Of course they are going to look at it with suspicion. You need to show a stable and fairly long term relationship before they will let your wife in.

[MAL2004]

Without sounding hard hearted, but what do you expect? Of course they are going to look at it with suspicion. You need to show a stable and fairly long term relationship before they will let your wife in.

I expect a representative of a country in which I have paid taxes for the last 28 years to at least make some enquiries about me or my wife regarding our employment accomodation etc. They are quite happy to take the 2800 baht over the counter from my wife (which, as you may be aware, is quite a lot of money for a Thai) and make little or no effort to investigate our situation.

[Basher]

You are married, you have right to appeal mate, use it. They rearely refuse appeals by the way.

Bash

[wcr]

Join the club, so did I, now I pay my taxes in this country. Which ever way you look at it you met over the internet, married quickly, show no evidence of your relationship. What options did the officer have?

Sorry mate, but I for one am glad she was knocked back, shows at last the UK is tightening up on things which is long over due. If you had been together for some time and then had married and applied i.e 12 - 18 months then I would be very sympathetic towards you both and join the rest of the posters here in condeming the Embassy staff. But with the situation you told, I can't and I agree with the Embassy's action.

I really do hope that your lady is genuine, for your sake, however a lot of these girls just want to get to the UK, and they'll use the first man they can find who can get them there.

[Schmeen]

With all due respect, I think the problem may lie here......

I expect a representative of a country in which I have paid taxes for the last 28 years to at least make some enquiries about me or my wife regarding our employment accomodation etc. They are quite happy to take the 2800 baht over the counter from my wife (which, as you may be aware, is quite a lot of money for a Thai) and make little or no effort to investigate our situation.

It's not their job to investigate every case that comes to them, it's your job to provide the evidence properly to them. I've been involved in a few visa applications over the years, my wife, family etc, never had a failure. I do always go with immaculate paperwork and nothing left to chance.

Can you honestly say that this was the case, you didn't even go yourself and help this application. Sorry to hear this, but the embassy do not owe you any favours and they get swamped with applications. Maybe you should have helped yourself, it's not that hard when done properly.

[Schmeen]

Remember this

The embassy has a 3 way duty of care regarding visa applications.

1. to the host countries tax payers. We don't want to pay for her. (yes I know about the beef about asylum seekers, but two wrongs don't make a right.)

2. to the national of the embassies host nation. They need to know that she is safe and not being sold into something. If you didn't attend the interview, it can send a message of you not being that bothered about this person.

3. To the citizen aiding the application. They need to protect you from some of the scam artists. And there are many. particularly on the internet. Often they will refuse to see if you come back. Many do not, too much effort for the rewards. They saw evidence of two people marrying who with all due respect have nigh on no history together, and in 5 years they could have a British citizen freshly added to the list.

They are checking you out and it starts here.

[MAL2004]

Can you honestly say that this was the case, you didn't even go yourself and help this application. Sorry to hear this, but the embassy do not owe you any favours and they get swamped with applications. Maybe you should have helped yourself, it's not that hard when done properly.

Maybe you should apply for a job at the UK embassy. You obviously have not read about my situation properly. I have not said that I didn't go to the embassy with my wife. In fact I went with her everytime and each time I was told that they only wanted to talk with her alone and I was not allowed to stay in the same room. I would also like to point out that I am not the kind of <deleted> that plays up and makes a spectacle of myself when I can't get what I want. We both attended the embassy smartly dressed and sat quietly during the whole of the visit.

I have also been living with my wife for a total of 3 months since I first visited Thailand in November 2003.

As for wcr, well, what can I say. You must be working at the embassy already! See you next time mate

[Digger]

Can you honestly say that this was the case, you didn't even go yourself and help this application. Sorry to hear this, but the embassy do not owe you any favours and they get swamped with applications. Maybe you should have helped yourself, it's not that hard when done properly.

Maybe you should apply for a job at the UK embassy. You obviously have not read about my situation properly. I have not said that I didn't go to the embassy with my wife. In fact I went with her everytime and each time I was told that they only wanted to talk with her alone and I was not allowed to stay in the same room. I would also like to point out that I am not the kind of <deleted> that plays up and makes a spectacle of myself when I can't get what I want. We both attended the embassy smartly dressed and sat quietly during the whole of the visit.

I have also been living with my wife for a total of 3 months since I first visited Thailand in November 2003.

As for wcr, well, what can I say. You must be working at the embassy already! See you next time mate

I suspect that the single biggest factor here was no clear reason to return - you applied for a tourist visa but odds are they would have asked her why is she applying for a tourist visa when you are married. Some may say they are trying to catch you out, and to a degree they are. However as others have said their is a responsibility on their part to MINIMISE the risk of someone overstaying. The UK because of its lax exit procedures, is not in a position to check easily if someone has left the country. Therefore they have to be extra careful about who they let in. Other countries have different policies but the key is to understamnd how the system works and learn how best to approach it. Ask yourself, all the typical 'Cynic' questions and how they would be answered.

Again not wishing to sound hard on you, but if I had been the consulate staff, I too would likely have turned down the application. However of course I have not seen the application form, which may not have helped your cause. What job does she do? How long has she worked there, did you take any evidence of her job (job offer letter, payroll slips, etc). Somebody paid in cash might as well not exist as far as the embassy is concerned as there are no corroborating papers confirming it. How logn did she say on the form she intended to stay for - did it match up with her flight itinerary? One thing that does help is that you travel out and back together, although with you LIVING in the UK, they will not place much emphasis on this.

The whole thing about overstaying is the problem. example. my girlfriend of 4 years has visited the UK 5 times and on the last but one visit (nearly 6 months to the day after her previous visit, the immigration agent at Heathrow quizzed her extensively as to when she had left the previous time as she has a multiple entry visa valid for 5 years but the maximum stay is 6 months. The point here is that they have no idea when she left last time around and wanted to be carefull if she was back to backing her 6 months stays (which she was not as we live in Thailand and only ever stay 7-10 days in the UK). The officer was very nice about it and we had no problem but it shows they are checking these things in detail.

Also are you aware that the embassy keep records of all applicants and their ID numbers. Perhaps unbeknown to you she may have applied before with another guy and been declined. Even if she changed her passport, they still know via her ID card number which is very difficult to change. Again, if that was not detailed in the application, this would count against her. Often embassy's will not inform you of that as its not easy to disclose that information to a 3rd party (i.e you).

Going forward, you nee to convince them that she will return to Thailand. For that they like to see land and assets in Thailand in her name as well as her financial security, job letter, payroll slips etc.

Hope this helps, but I am not to confident that you can appeal with much success.

[wcr]

MAL2004, I do not work for the embassy. You need to take a step back from your situation and look at it coldly, what would you have done if you were the embassy officer? Would you have approved your application, and be honest with yourself. Not only me, but other Brits here have said the same as I did, and that they would not have from the info you gave us.

It is normal for the partner to be interviewed on thier own, they are testing them. They would normally then question you after and check your answers. What you would expect. The fact that you were not questioned would suggest she failed the very basic 'tests', or she has a previous history of being turned down with other guys. Sorry to be so blunt, I know it must be hard for you, but how well do you know her history? There maybe something you are not aware of.

3 months is no time at all to be living with someone, so why mention that as an important fact? The Embassy have done thier job in your situation at the end of the day, and you can't see it because its on your doorstep. I feel for you of course, but I'm not sorry.

[mikeg]

It,s very annoying, frustrating and upsetting for you both and i sympethise.

It took me 12 months to turn a NO into a YES at the visa section of the home office and i married my Thai wife in the UK having lived together for over 12 months.

You will win, but you,ll need to keep your cool, record every thing from the time you met and get some good legal advise.It also can get expensive, I visited my wife in Udon Thani 4 times in 2003 just to spend time together to keep me sane. I unfortunately wasted 6 months thinking the system was fair and I could win on humanitarian gounds fighting the case on my own. You,re not dealing with people who care about your happyness together-- to the embassy even a delay is a win. AS Law in liverpool saved my life but there are many specialists who are good and some give free advise.

I won our appeal on Feb 13th 2004 and i,m still waiting for the visa to be stamped and returned to my wife so she can fly home -- more delaying tactics from the sore losers.

Good luck my friend-- it,ll be worth it.

[peteypie]

Dear ######, isn't it about time that this board had a 'Falang meets Thai girl, sells the farm, gets stung' section? Then it would give all of us some food for thought before we do actually sell the farm! I've just seen yet another falang acquaintance, who met his Thai girlfriend through a dating agency, seen off to the tune of nearly 1 million baht! Shouldn't these agencies and their girls be blacklisted somewhere? It appears that the Brit Embassy is doing its best to stem this trade and shouldn't we be thanking them for it? If your girlfriend or wife has been refused a visa, instead of sounding off at the Embassy, how about investing in a private detective to do a little research for you? Hopefully, she'll come up clean and you can fight the good fight, if she doesn't, a couple of beer tokens to the guy at the Embassy wouldn't go amiss.

[MAL2004]

Dear ######, isn't it about time that this board had a 'Falang meets Thai girl, sells the farm, gets stung' section? Then it would give all of us some food for thought before we do actually sell the farm! I've just seen yet another falang acquaintance, who met his Thai girlfriend through a dating agency, seen off to the tune of nearly 1 million baht! Shouldn't these agencies and their girls be blacklisted somewhere? It appears that the Brit Embassy is doing its best to stem this trade and shouldn't we be thanking them for it? If your girlfriend or wife has been refused a visa, instead of sounding off at the Embassy, how about investing in a private detective to do a little research for you? Hopefully, she'll come up clean and you can fight the good fight, if she doesn't, a couple of beer tokens to the guy at the Embassy wouldn't go amiss.

Someone else that doesn't read. I didn't ask for cynical opinions, so why not buy yerself a CB for the car and talk to yer mates on the carpark.

[Bluecat]

Dear ######, isn't it about time that this board had a 'Falang meets Thai girl, sells the farm, gets stung' section? Then it would give all of us some food for thought before we do actually sell the farm!

There are no farms in Phuket but a lot of very smart ladies.

Believe me, I have been there a few months with a smart one,...

And please, do not take it bad Mal2004 because I sure can understand you.

[simon43]

On a general note, the British Embassy in Bangkok website has a link to the 'bible' concerning the rules & regulations about visas, and about how a visa assessment should be conducted by the ECO (Visa Officer).

This document

DIPLOMATIC SERVICE PROCEDURES

ENTRY CLEARANCE VOLUME 1

GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS

is VERY detailed and VERY informative! You can find it on the UKVisa website at

http://www.ukvisa.gov.uk

As a result of a visa problem (in another thread), I spent a few hours reading this document, and I would certainly recommend it to anyone who is applying for ANY type of UK visa! It certainly clarifies a whole host of possible questions.

Good reading

[peteypie]

Hello Mal2004, sadly, I don't own a car, so I can't play with a CB on the carpark ( CB, weren't they fitted in the Ark?) I'm sorry that I touched a raw nerve. However, as I'm not 'just off the boat', maybe I'm a little more cynical then your, as I've seen and heard of all the scams that go on in Thailand. As I said in my e-mail, I hope that the woman you have married will be able to get her visa and join you in the UK. If however, things don't go as planned, ask yourself why? The Embassy isn't there to screw you over, they are trying to protect you, me, and everyone else out there. Sometimes in Thailand cynicism can go a long way. I hope that you don't learn to be cynical the hard way, like many falang have before you. I hope that it does work out for you and your wife, and please remember that my words are ment as a little red warning flag not as a stick to beat you over the head with. Good luck and tread carefully.

[udon]

You met in Nov, got married in Feb....... mate, I think the ECO did you a favour.

Don't you ever read the relationship stories on other forums?

I lived with a lieing honey for 12 months and one day she just vanished with my wallet, phone and jewelry.

No harsh words were ever spoken prior to her vanishing!

Another board member here had a similar act pulled on him after 2, yes, 2 years.

Time will tell, but a 4 month relationship (with a Thai) before marriage...?

I wouldn't like to be in your shoes.

Good luck though, keep us posted.

[slim]

peteypie you want to wake up and smell the roses

The Embassy isn't there to screw you over, they are trying to protect you, me, and everyone else out there

You want to check out my previous posts on this subject.

I live with my fiancee in Khon Kaen in the NE. We have our own house, a new car in my fiancee's name which we have a finance agreement on, my fiancee's 10 year old daughter lives with us and goes to the local school, we have a 6 month old Shitzu dog.

As I was supposed to return to the UK in May for an operation I applied for a 6 week visa for her and made plans to marry my fiancee in front of my family and friends whilst I was there .

At interview we took with us the deeds to the house in my fiancee's name, photo's of the house and my fiancee's daughter and a copy of her birth certificate, the purchase agreement details of the car, every single receipt of every single purchase since I moved to Khon Kaen, a letter from my Bangkok solicitors regarding my application for a Marriage Visa, our bank books showing our joint funds in 2 banks and my passport showing when I entered the country and clearly showing I hadn't left the country (apart from 1 visa run).

The decision of the wonderful British Embassy you have such high regard for?

VISA REFUSED

On the grounds that the Embassy were satisfied my fiancee did not intend to return to Thailand.

Having subsequently written to the (acting) Entry Clearance Office (Mr Kevin Newman) he further enlightened me with the information that according to his Visa Officer (a Miss Khan) my fiancee at interview apparantly claimed she had no children and was working in Samut Prakan for 100baht a day in a handbag factory.

12 days ago I wrote to Mr Newman asking:-

Could you also explain why on the refusal form it states “you have stated that you intend to marry your boyfriend whilst in the UK and that you intend to settle with your boyfriend in the UK” – when in fact my fiancée has no intention of staying in the UK as supported by the documentary evidence? (and by the way has no desire to).

Could you also explain why the question “If you wish to comment on the reasons for refusal, I shall record your response below” – was not asked (hence blank)?

Could you also explain why the contents of the refusal form were NOT  translated into Thai  as required by due process and as stated on the refusal form?

Could you also explain to me why my fiancée (a Thai national) was asked to sign a form written in English – a language she only has a partial command of? (and incidentally on refusal was told it was “mai samkhan”). See above.

Could you also explain why my fiancée was told at the start of interview that she (Miss Khan) was busy and didn’t have a lot of time and that she (my fiancée) was to answer the questions and not ask them? Is this normal Embassy procedure?

Could you also explain why I, as my fiancée’s supporter, was not asked to corroborate the statements my fiancée made?

You state in your letter “Although guarantees from sponsors are useful, the onus is on the applicant to demonstrate to an Entry Clearance Officer that he or she qualifies for entry clearance in accordance with United Kingdom Immigration Rules”. Could you explain more fully in which areas we have failed to satisfy the Immigration rules

I have yet to receive an answer.

a couple of beer tokens to the guy at the Embassy wouldn't go amiss.

How naive are you?

[peteypie]

Hello Slim, I'm sorry that your girlfriend told the ECO that she was working at a handbag factory in Samut Prakan, that she has no daugther and that she intends to stay with you in the UK after you are married. I guess you should be giving her the rollocking not me?! I'm also sorry to hear that you are having to go back to the UK for an operation. Why not have the operation here in Thailand? It would save you all the hassle and costs of going back there to do it? Oh! G** forbid that something should go wrong while your in hospital (I truly mean that) If however it should, then your girlfriend and her 'daugther' may end up being taken care of from public funds while you get well. Oh, one last thing, I assume that if your doing visa runs, you are on a tourist visa? If you've only done one 'visa run' that means you've been in country for just over 3 months, am I correct? All sounds a bit strange to me, no wonder the ECO knocked her back. Before I get my head bitten off, remember, your girlfriend has a house, she has a new car, which you are paying for no doubt, she may have a 10 year old daughter, which it appears she told the ECO she didn't, and the Shitzu, (is that a breed of dog with a bad dose of the squits) well, I quess a normal dog wasn't classy enough for a Mai Falang?! On a helpful note, if you live for 4 years with your girlfriend, here in thailand, and can prove it, you can then go to the UK without all this hassle. Check out the FCO website, it gives you all the info. Good luck Slim, sounds like you may need it.

[chonabot]

Mal , I had a similar circumstance ( ie refusal ) 8 years ago , originally my then gf applied for a tourist visa - refused , then a fiance/marriage visa , also refused.

Obviously pissed off, we took a step back, spoke to a few people, unfortunately or fortunately these forums weren't around then, so we were spared some smart arse comments , but also some helpful ones.

I appealed in the Uk with the Immigrant Advisory people in Croydon. We won the appeal , it took six months, the rest is history. She left me for a junkie 2 years later... Just kidding, we have 2 kids , are planning to relocate to Los in a few years , unless that prat Toxin screws the country by then. Its up to you to decide , but any number of applications in the future , unless 2 or 3 years would be (imo) less likely to succedd than an appeal.

Good Luck.

ps the the Tourist Visa was non-appealable, not sure if the Non-Imm one is the same status or not?

[chonabot]

It is normal for the partner to be interviewed on thier own, they are testing them. They would normally then question you after and check your answers.

This is a common fallacy , I know of many people who have been through this process , myself included , it is NOT normal for the sponsor to be interviewed.

Only when particular information is required will this be undertook.

The problem with an open forum is that people with 3rd hand information can muddy the picture somewhat. Another site that deals only in Thai-uk visa situations is Thailand-uk.com Have a look over there , an informative site , but not as entertaining as Thaivisa!

[slim]

You were half right MAL2004 - its not that he doesn't read - he just doesn't have enough intelligence to understand.

You're a retard Edan

[paulmw]

Thai GF visa to UK refused! What did we do wrong?

You should have come to see me.MAL2004.