Are big bikes safer than scooters?

[andreandre]

" Seems to me that scooters are significantly more dangerous than big bikes."

Significantly more dangerous?? How? Why?

OP is trying to compare 3 scooter incidents to his one midsize bike fall....strange thinking even to immagine this on these stats...4 different riders on 4 different bikes in 4 different circumstances..is no comparison on anything at all...how can you come up with such a presumption?

There must be hundreds of scooters per one big bike in Thailand for a start, so the odds are higher anyway... ...IMO its 100% down to the riders ability to ride whatever size scooter or big bike it is..not at all about the size of the bike..when you are unlucky, you are unlucky..end of...shit can happen to anyone from a novice to the best MGP riders.

All the other responders understood my post. Strange that you, considering your knowledge and experience, struggled with that.

Nevertheless, the question was very simple. Ceterus paribus, do you feel safer on a big bike or a scooter. I understand if you can't answer this but for owners of both big bikes and scooters, the consensus seems to be that a big bike is safer due to bigger tyres, more power on call and higher visibility. This of course needs to be contrasted with slight more difficult handling due to the size of the bike.

No not struggling in any way, shape or form mate...

Yes, the question was very simple..but your example of various bikes falling over was in no way relevant to that question....you must realise that, surely..No?....As for your..Ceterus paribus.... ."Do you feel safer on on a bike bike or a scooter?" is not the same as "Are big bikes safer than scooters?".One is about ones own perceptions and the other is possible facts/stats........

My opinion is as i posted earlier stands...:.IMO its 100% down to the riders ability to ride whatever size scooter or big bike it is..not at all about the size of the bike..when you are unlucky, you are unlucky..end of...shit can happen to anyone from a novice to the best MGP riders.

On a scooter or on a big bike ...

[jonnyscot]

Ok guys, grammar nitpicking aside, most of us gets the gist of what gweil was saying, remembering that some of us dont have english as our first language, as some have noted there are a number of factors, including the ones mentioned by both gweil whilst other notable factors have been mentioned by andre, this is what the forum is all about, but give a little slack guys re the language misinterpretations, as i said I think most of us gets the gist of another interesting topic from gweil

[andreandre]

Ok guys, grammar nitpicking aside, most of us gets the gist of what gweil was saying, remembering that some of us dont have english as our first language, as some have noted there are a number of factors, including the ones mentioned by both gweil whilst other notable factors have been mentioned by andre, this is what the forum is all about, but give a little slack guys re the language misinterpretations, as i said I think most of us gets the gist of another interesting topic from gweil

OK you say you get the gist of the OP..could you then explain what the relevance of the whole post is..here it is;

One poster crashed when riding over a 1 inch rut on his scooter. Another slipped recently in ice like conditions, also on his scooter. Yet another fell from her scooter when larking around. I fell riding over a mud slick on my Versys going uphill.

Seems to me that scooters are significantly more dangerous than big bikes

How does this tie in,in any way at all with safety of big bikes compared to scooters?..

[jonnyscot]

The way i read it its just a generalisation of accidents whether related or unrelated, up to you to decide, id say youd be more than welcome to add big bike accidents to counter what gweil is putting across, this is what the forum should be all about, dont read too much into it trying to find something that aint there mate

[Dutchbike]

Interesting article on Motorcycle safety:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

Agree with most posters saying it's the rider which makes the difference,when a rider adapts his riding style ( speed) on the sort of bike he's riding, I don't believe big bikes are safer then small bikes.

In some cases the power/ speed of Big Bikes may be a cause for accidents and in other causes the better stability, brakes etc will help to prevent an accident.

But in the end it all comes down to: common sense of the rider.

[Dutchbike]

High Performance Motorcycles

High performance motorcycles, although comprising a small portion of the overall number of motorcycles on the road, account for a disproportionate number of motorcycle accidents. These motorcycles fall into two categories: supersport motorcycles and sport motorcycles.

Supersport motorcycles. Supersport motorcycles are built on racing platforms that are modified for highway use. Because these motorcycles are lightweight and have high-horsepower engines, they can go extremely fast -- up to 160 mph. Most supersport motorcycle riders are under the age of 30, another contributing factor to the higher accident rate since younger motorcycle riders tend to be less cautious and take more risks than older riders.

Sport motorcycles. Sport motorcycles are similar to supersport motorcycles, but have a lower power to weight ratio. Drivers of sport motorcycles tend to be under the age of 34.

The death rate among riders of supersport motorcycle accidents is four times that of riders of conventional motorcycles, like cruisers, standards, and touring motorcycles. The riders of the more conventional motorcycles are also older --usually age 40 and above. The death rate among riders of sport motorcycles is two times that of conventional motorcycle riders.

Motorcyclists are more at risk for fatal or serious accidents on the road than are drivers. Yet, motorcycle riders can increase safety by being aware of the common causes of accidents and taking steps to reduce or avoid the risk, whether it be taking extra care when lane splitting, anticipating road hazards, or resisting the temptation to speed

[wantan]

Ok guys, grammar nitpicking aside, most of us gets the gist of what gweil was saying, remembering that some of us dont have english as our first language, as some have noted there are a number of factors, including the ones mentioned by both gweil whilst other notable factors have been mentioned by andre, this is what the forum is all about, but give a little slack guys re the language misinterpretations, as i said I think most of us gets the gist of another interesting topic from gweil

OK you say you get the gist of the OP..could you then explain what the relevance of the whole post is..here it is;

One poster crashed when riding over a 1 inch rut on his scooter. Another slipped recently in ice like conditions, also on his scooter. Yet another fell from her scooter when larking around. I fell riding over a mud slick on my Versys going uphill.

Seems to me that scooters are significantly more dangerous than big bikes

How does this tie in,in any way at all with safety of big bikes compared to scooters?..

Imo andreandre is asking a valid question here. The OP should clarify this.

[DILLIGAD]

Both are lethal when bad luck or bad riders are involved.

One mans meat etc.....

[Phra Ek]

If we take the rider's skills out of the equation by assuming that both the scooter and the big bike are ridden by an experienced, skilled rider who has been raised on Carol's 'English Coppers Guide to Roadcraft' - then the big bike will be safer.

Why:

• Better brakes
• Better tires
• Bigger wheels - greater mass and diameter so more stable
• Better suspension (without the engine sitting on the rear wheel)
• Better visibility - higher up and also easier for a car to see it/hear it.

But .... if the rider of both bikes is inexperienced then the scooter will be safer ...

Why:

• Scooter has less power

Which is a long way of saying it depends on the rider.

[wantan]

^

Why does an inexperienced rider not need good brakes, better wheels, etc.?

Does this really make sense? Imo not.

And some even argue that it is the more power that make big bikes safer

[Phra Ek]

^

Why does an inexperienced rider not need good brakes, better wheels, etc.?

Does this really make sense? Imo not.

And some even argue that it is the more power that make big bikes safer

..... It's just that with an inexperienced rider the greater power/acceleration/speed will make the big bike less safe .... on balance.

More power only makes a big bike safer if you know when to use it.

[Gweiloman]

The way i read it its just a generalisation of accidents whether related or unrelated, up to you to decide, id say youd be more than welcome to add big bike accidents to counter what gweil is putting across, this is what the forum should be all about, dont read too much into it trying to find something that aint there mate

Don't worry about it mate. You and I both know of the hidden agenda here

[Gweiloman]

If we take the rider's skills out of the equation by assuming that both the scooter and the big bike are ridden by an experienced, skilled rider who has been raised on Carol's 'English Coppers Guide to Roadcraft' - then the big bike will be safer.

Why:

• Better brakes
• Better tires
• Bigger wheels - greater mass and diameter so more stable
• Better suspension (without the engine sitting on the rear wheel)
• Better visibility - higher up and also easier for a car to see it/hear it.

But .... if the rider of both bikes is inexperienced then the scooter will be safer ...

Why:

• Scooter has less power

Which is a long way of saying it depends on the rider.

Excellent post which addresses exactly the point of this thread. As johnnyscot mentioned, some of us Johnny Foreigners do not have English as our mother tongue, unlike the English, Americans, Australians and New Zealanders.

I agree with you 100% - experienced riders on big bikes will probably feel that a big bike is safer overall (for the reasons that you mentioned) whereas inexperienced big bike riders will feel safer on a scooter (again, for exactly the reasons that you mentioned).

I expect that one or two posters would continue to troll this thread by pointing out that I should therefore feel safer on a scooter but that's to be expected of these posters.

[wantan]

^

And Gweilo, lets hope you are happy now that you own both, a "safe" big bike and an "unsafe" scooter.

Never met a guy who thinks so much about safety than you do. Hope you feel safe now. Being confident is an important factor for safe riding. So better sell your scooter soon

[Gweiloman]

^

And Gweilo, lets hope you are happy now that you own both, a "safe" big bike and an "unsafe" scooter.

Never met a guy who thinks so much about safety than you do. Hope you feel safe now. Being confident is an important factor for safe riding. So better sell your scooter soon

Maybe English is not your first language but "less safe" does not equate to "unsafe".

Any responsible motorist, whether he/she be driving a car or riding a bike or whatever, should always be thinking about safety, especially in a country like Thailand which is notorious for her road safety record. It is because that safety is paramount in my mind that I was able to graduate from riding a scooter a mere few years ago to riding big bikes at fairly high speeds today and doing so safely, and without any untoward incidents.

Some feel that knowledge and skill can only come with quantity of miles travelled or years of riding. This could very be so in their case due to their limitations in other areas. There are slow learners and there are fast learners. Such is life.

[AllanB]

If you remove the speed factor, i.e. assuming big bikes are being ridden at the same speed as scooters, or there abouts, big bikes are much much safer.

For all the reasons listed by others and actually I hit a 1" lump of dried concrete on my Phantom (a big bike in terms of wheel and frame size and resultant handling) and I stayed on only because I was on a big bike. On a scooter I would have been off and maybe under a truck.

On my daughter's Fino, I have had quite a few backside clenching incidents over next to nothing in terms of road surface and hate the bloody thing. Jeremy Clarkson will agree with me there.

Furthermore big bikes have road presence, whereas scooters are like mosquitoes and easily swatted, especially on highways, plus they have no power to get the flock outter there when the

[biker Bob]

I can only speak for myself, but i feel safer on a big bike for all the reasons stated above.

[andreandre]

Ok guys, grammar nitpicking aside, most of us gets the gist of what gweil was saying, remembering that some of us dont have english as our first language, as some have noted there are a number of factors, including the ones mentioned by both gweil whilst other notable factors have been mentioned by andre, this is what the forum is all about, but give a little slack guys re the language misinterpretations, as i said I think most of us gets the gist of another interesting topic from gweil

OK you say you get the gist of the OP..could you then explain what the relevance of the whole post is..here it is;

One poster crashed when riding over a 1 inch rut on his scooter. Another slipped recently in ice like conditions, also on his scooter. Yet another fell from her scooter when larking around. I fell riding over a mud slick on my Versys going uphill.

Seems to me that scooters are significantly more dangerous than big bikes

How does this tie in,in any way at all with safety of big bikes compared to scooters?..

Imo andreandre is asking a valid question here. The OP should clarify this.

Correct..and not surprisingly .....no clarification.....instead off on some ''conspiracy theory" against him as usual....

[andreandre]

I can only speak for myself, but i feel safer on a big bike for all the reasons stated above.

Interested in this bB, as others have made similar comment..The OP said "Are big bikes safer than scooters?"

IYO does" feeling safe"on a big bike actually relate in your opinion to a big bike actually being safer?..I have no doubt that 'feeling safe' can be a positive in the mind over matter process, but conversely can also make some people over confident at times...

I pointed this out in an earlier post that the former is only about perceptions whilst the latter is about facts/stats..which is paramount.

.Are big bikes factually/statistically safer than scooters?....

The OP poster is always on about getting things right for the benefit/ knowledge of novices like himself and some others [and i do agree with this assertion] so maybe his query was not worded correctly again. Whiskytalk.

IMO statistically/factually,all things being equal... the answer can only be NO.....as confirmed in posts above.

[Derek M]

Not safer just many more small bikes then big ones....Thousands either Die or crippled each year from coming off small Bikes they thought were safer...

True.

I triple fractured my femour two of which cut sciatic nerve in 2 places, broke hip (vertical fracture at joint of femour) broke knee cap in 2 places. twisted knee 90 degrees out of place stretching tendons and ligaments, fragmented said femour in 9 places,

Left disabled (aged 34) but very mobile (so lucky!) not cripled by freak accident involving water, a tree, a 50CC Piaggio scooter at 30 KM/h! and very poor lighting (street lights were broken headlight were fine, freak accident as I say).

Bikes as mentioned are only as safe as the driver. Bigger bikes more weight and wheel base and power/speed can get you out of trouble/prevent accidents.

Also you are only as safe as other road users. In saying that I was almost rammed off the road and on to a bridge by an <deleted> truck last week. Bigger bikes get that respect if driver is awake/alert

I never go more than 60 on my 125 Honda Scoopy, allows to see road conditions ahead and extra umph to get out of trouble (i.e said truck driver last week!)

Going slower alows time to react to Thai crazy impatient drivers like, time few months ago came over to my side of the road on a blind bend to..over take double sugar truck and two cars..

The two examples of the OP relate to road conditions not drivers or other road users.

I do wonder however, how many accidents on motorbike are caused by inexperienced riders using bikes that are too powerful, example in Thailand you pass motorbike test (if locals bother to take it)..you can drive anything, any size. In Spain, UK other EU nations possibly also you pass driving test for car or bike you are limited to 125cc and must take test for a more powerful bike. In Spain when you take and pass test for a more powerful bike the power is limited, reguardless of engine size. to 17HP / 17BHP for first 2 years.

Biggest danger on Thai roads are unlicenced drivers, lack of hazard perception, lack of respect for other road users, and in general just doing as they wish and being impatient and unable to anticipate and think ahead. You could add alcoholism to that also.

[CharlieH]

inflammatory remarks and responses also bickering removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[English_M_in_Bkk]

Missing a big factor between scooters and what I call bikes, not just big ones.

On a bike you have the abilitiy to become one with the machine (yeah yeah sounds very Zen I know). You can grip the tank with your legs and not hang on by the bars, thus allowing the bike's suspension etc. to work without you as a rider <deleted> it up. Go over a bumpy road on a bike and make sure you hold onto the bike through your legs and take the weight off the bars and the bike will handle the bumps a lot better. Same with cornering, you can clamp into the bike and take your weight off the bars, again not upsetting what the bike is doing.

With braking as well, on a bike if you need to brake hard, you can squeeze the tank with your legs making it easier to transfer more weight to the front tyre.

Scooters you sit on, and you are more likely to grip the bars harder for support.

I ride both bikes, sometimes I like to do long runs on scooters just for the fun factor, they are great for zipping around, but I do find bikes safer to ride overall.

[wantan]

I like doing short rides on my scooter wearing flip-flops and shorts. And i feel much safer doing so on a small scooter than doing the same on a bigger bike. On the scooter my feet and legs are somehow protected while riding and no stones, sticks, dogs, cars whatever can do them any harm. But again, all just feelings, not reliable facts. I would like to have ABS and better wheels. So my next small scooter is something like the Tricity ABS i guess.

[Phra Ek]

I like doing short rides on my scooter wearing flip-flops and shorts. And i feel much safer doing so on a small scooter than doing the same on a bigger bike. On the scooter my feet and legs are somehow protected while riding and no stones, sticks, dogs, cars whatever can do them any harm. But again, all just feelings, not reliable facts. I would like to have ABS and better wheels. So my next small scooter is something like the Tricity ABS i guess.

I do the same - shorts and T-shirt on a scooter - jacket and Kevlar jeans on the bike. But I'm not sure if it's just about feelings. I tend to be on a scooter for low-speed trips so I guess this means less abrasion with the road in a fall? Also - a bike has more weight and there's the gas tank between your legs - so I think there's a higher chance you can get your leg stuck under a fallen bike than when riding a scooter.

[wantan]

I like doing short rides on my scooter wearing flip-flops and shorts. And i feel much safer doing so on a small scooter than doing the same on a bigger bike. On the scooter my feet and legs are somehow protected while riding and no stones, sticks, dogs, cars whatever can do them any harm. But again, all just feelings, not reliable facts. I would like to have ABS and better wheels. So my next small scooter is something like the Tricity ABS i guess.

I do the same - shorts and T-shirt on a scooter - jacket and Kevlar jeans on the bike. But I'm not sure if it's just about feelings. I tend to be on a scooter for low-speed trips so I guess this means less abrasion with the road in a fall? Also - a bike has more weight and there's the gas tank between your legs - so I think there's a higher chance you can get your leg stuck under a fallen bike than when riding a scooter.

So a scooter is in some points safer at lower speed city riding? Imo it is. And imo its more practical and thus more fun for city commutes.

[andreandre]

Big bikes , mostly by virtue of their designed componentry ie more sophisticated and capable high tech...you are for sure on a two wheeler that is more able to handle most situations one may encounter on the roads [even in Thailand]...and for this you generally pay the price in dollars/baht.and it can be safer but,only on the proviso that you ride it within your capabilities...if you happen to be a novice on a big bike you need to be very aware and considerate of multiple possible scenarios that may occur.....if however you are not a novice, ie have a lot of roadcraft experience, then you can push the boundaries more and benefit from the available tech..

On a basic scooter you have more limited sophisticated and capable componentry and so as a novice rider you still need to be aware of the multiple possible scenarios that may occur and so, ride sensibly,.... if you are a more experienced rider you again can still push the boundaries on a scooter but you must also still ride within your capabilities..easy...up to you entirely!

Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.

[wantan]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

[Gweiloman]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

[andreandre]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

Interesting...i have followed this forum for many years and have never seen such claims made..any links/evidence of the two saying as you proclaim ? ie where they actually claim to have top notch riding skills...doubtful...but i know you'll give it a shot...

Don't forget..the answer to your OP is...;Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.

[wantan]

Some members here want to do a civilized discussion about safety of different type of bikes! Please stay on topic.