Please share your experience with Deed transfers

[BakHamLe]

Hello, If anyone has experience with transferring "Sor Por Gor" Deeds into a Chanote, please share your experience and how you went about doing this.

Please include,

1. Size of land

2. Length of overall process.

3. transfer fees

4. Province you own the land in.

I want to buy land and eventually transfer the deed so any advice will be greatly appreciated,

Thank you!

[CharlieH]

MOVED to property forum

[n210mp]

I would be extremely surprised if anyone "volunteered" the information you are asking for

If you are asking for the protocol or how to transfer that is one thing but your question includes the giving of personal details which maybe of interest to banks, inland revenue , third parties etc

Maybe the Lawyers/legal forum would be more appropriate than this one to find out the info you seek!

What relevance to your opening question these are very personal questions;

"Please include,

1. Size of land

2. Length of overall process.

3. transfer fees

4. Province you own the land in."

Like I said I would be very surprised that any sensible person would give this personal information out on an open public forum

Edited April 6, 2015 by n210mp

[BakHamLe]

The reason I asked those questions is because I am going to buy 100 Rai, and for some people, a smaller plot of land might have been easier to transfer. As for the province, each province might have different restrictions or protocols. Fees are tied to the size of land I assume.

If someone knows the protocol that would be of great help to me in itself, I don't need any personal info, just how to do it, and if it is even possible.

[balo]

The protocol is to register in a Thai name. Foreigners can not own land here. Ask a lawyer.

[BakHamLe]

All the land will be registered in my Wife's name, I am aware of the laws regarding ownership of land for foreigners, I am just looking for information on the registration process that she will go through to change the deed to a Chanote. If it is even possible. I have " asked the lawyer" in that forum with no response.

[n210mp]

Just as an aside ,Buying land through a Thai Ltd company may well be one way of registering an interest from a share point of view with your wife as main shareholder but if you have a trusting and proven relationship I would avoid this method of purchase

From limited experience of my Thai family buying land I think it is a straightforward process.

The two parties, the buyer and the seller go to the local land office and register the transfer.

It is often the case that the transfer price is subject to land transfer tax.

I could offer some really practical advice with regard to the sales price and the tax and would offer this if you PMed me for my phone number

[CharlieH]

You need to go and talk with your local area "Government Land Office". They will advise your wife on procedure and protocol etc.

[Thongkorn]

Just as an aside ,Buying land through a Thai Ltd company may well be one way of registering an interest from a share point of view with your wife as main shareholder but if you have a trusting and proven relationship I would avoid this method of purchase

From limited experience of my Thai family buying land I think it is a straightforward process.

The two parties, the buyer and the seller go to the local land office and register the transfer.

It is often the case that the transfer price is subject to land transfer tax.

I could offer some really practical advice with regard to the sales price and the tax and would offer this if you PMed me for my phone number

Correct. the seller pays the tax and costs.

[BakHamLe]

When Sor Por Gor Land is sold, is there tax involved? The law clearly states that Sor Por Gor land cannot be sold, so if the govt is collecting taxes on these sales, that is very odd.

I will follow CharlieH's advice and go to the land office to ask. I just wanted to get a general idea before I headed back to Thailand in the fall.

[khunPer]

Sor Por Gor Land

As I remember, there are some (heavy) restrictions on that title, but you better check with Land Office (as also suggested by CharlieH) and/or an experienced lawyer.

This is the information I know:

Sor Por Gor. 4-01 (S.P.G. 4-01) is an allotment of land from the land reformative committee. Under no circumstance may this land be bought or sold. It confers the right to occupy only and be transferred only by inheritance. It seems that the land may be used for agriculture only (update: in the news)

Source: http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/thailand-land-title-deeds.html

-and the link to the “update news article” from 2009 (so something may have been changed since then):

http://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/thailand-land-title-sor-por-kor-land-reform.html

It may be possible to upgrade title within family – many areas upgrade title deeds – but check with Land Office, or Head-of-Village may also know...

[khunPer]

Today's news:

Seven million rai of Sor Por Kor land to be reclaimed from landlords

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815541-seven-million-rai-of-sor-por-kor-land-to-be-reclaimed-from-landlords/

[BakHamLe]

Today's news:

Seven million rai of Sor Por Kor land to be reclaimed from landlords

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815541-seven-million-rai-of-sor-por-kor-land-to-be-reclaimed-from-landlords/

That seems like very big news. In the area that I want to buy land, everyone has sor por gor land in someone elses name, I dont know how people would react to the government coming in and redistributing the land. Many people have worked their entire lives to gain the ~50 rai they have.

I think that they are more concerned with rich Thais owning thousands of Rai and using the land as an investment, and not for their primary income.

[khunPer]

Today's news:

Seven million rai of Sor Por Kor land to be reclaimed from landlords

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815541-seven-million-rai-of-sor-por-kor-land-to-be-reclaimed-from-landlords/

That seems like very big news. In the area that I want to buy land, everyone has sor por gor land in someone elses name, I dont know how people would react to the government coming in and redistributing the land. Many people have worked their entire lives to gain the ~50 rai they have.

I think that they are more concerned with rich Thais owning thousands of Rai and using the land as an investment, and not for their primary income.

The low title deed farmlands are often transferred or sold – I’m talking from areas in Surin I know about – which normally is done through Head-of-Village with a standard form and HoF’s signature as witness. Price per rai seems to follow market price, and in the areas I’m familiar with, the present prices are around 40,000 baht per rai, whilst Chanute land easily can be well over 100,000 baht a rai. The villagers seem to feel secure with that kind of transactions – or perhaps they are all family-related in one or other way...?

I don’t think the government is looking at farmers “owing” some 50 or 100 rai they use for their own farming business, I think the government look at those buying up of lots of land for speculation in future price increase.

I just checked with my GF about the land her family is upgrading to Chanute at the moment, but that is from Nor Sor Sarm, which is easy, and something I have tried myself before. The Sor Por Gor deed has not been issued by a Land Office (according to the link in my earlier post), so that may be a much more complicated process to transfer and upgrade.

[BakHamLe]

Today's news:

Seven million rai of Sor Por Kor land to be reclaimed from landlords

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815541-seven-million-rai-of-sor-por-kor-land-to-be-reclaimed-from-landlords/

That seems like very big news. In the area that I want to buy land, everyone has sor por gor land in someone elses name, I dont know how people would react to the government coming in and redistributing the land. Many people have worked their entire lives to gain the ~50 rai they have.

I think that they are more concerned with rich Thais owning thousands of Rai and using the land as an investment, and not for their primary income.

The low title deed farmlands are often transferred or sold – I’m talking from areas in Surin I know about – which normally is done through Head-of-Village with a standard form and HoF’s signature as witness. Price per rai seems to follow market price, and in the areas I’m familiar with, the present prices are around 40,000 baht per rai, whilst Chanute land easily can be well over 100,000 baht a rai. The villagers seem to feel secure with that kind of transactions – or perhaps they are all family-related in one or other way...?

I don’t think the government is looking at farmers “owing” some 50 or 100 rai they use for their own farming business, I think the government look at those buying up of lots of land for speculation in future price increase.

I just checked with my GF about the land her family is upgrading to Chanute at the moment, but that is from Nor Sor Sarm, which is easy, and something I have tried myself before. The Sor Por Gor deed has not been issued by a Land Office (according to the link in my earlier post), so that may be a much more complicated process to transfer and upgrade.

Do you have one of those Standard forms? Can you upload one or PM me a scan please?

[khunPer]

Do you have one of those Standard forms? Can you upload one or PM me a scan please?

BakHamLe, the form used is a standard ”Buy and Sell Land” form (in Thai language and letters, of course) you can buy in bookshops or the paper shop in nearby town. I have an older one (there is a newer form available now), called “Buy and Sell Land and deposit Money” that I will PM you (as it’s filled out with an actual deal for Chanute land, in Thai); that may also be used.

I just asked my GF, who has done a number of “transfers” of that kind of Sor Por Kor land, and she says, that the “seller” will hand over the Sor Por Kor deed to the “buyer” that also keeps the “Buy and Sell Land” form, but in real you cannot sell the land.

I presume it’s like most other village-cases, that when it’s public village known – just like a village-marriage – it “legal” in the village community; but it may not be officially legal, like a village-marriage is not really legal when not registered at the Amphur. As mentioned before, the local villagers seem happy enough with swapping farmland that way, i.e. having the right to farm or use the land.

Your Thai wife should either know the form(s), or can easily ask for it in a local paper shop.

My personal advice shall be, if you are considering investment – or building something on the land – don’t spent more money than you can afford to loose; as foreigner you may have no legal rights at all. Furthermore, worst-case scenario, the Sor Por Kor land “ownership” can be reversed without compensation.

[BakHamLe]

Thank you for the advice Khunper, you answered a lot of my questions. I dont really see the land as an investment, just a place where I can build a house for my retirement, and a house for my wife's family to live on / farm. I will most likely have Palm oil trees on 50% of the land, and rice / fruit trees on the rest of it. Its hard to find any land in Sakaeo without a Sor Por Gor deed.

[khunPer]

Thank you for the advice Khunper, you answered a lot of my questions. I dont really see the land as an investment, just a place where I can build a house for my retirement, and a house for my wife's family to live on / farm. I will most likely have Palm oil trees on 50% of the land, and rice / fruit trees on the rest of it. Its hard to find any land in Sakaeo without a Sor Por Gor deed.

Do read little about farming oil palms before thinking of investing in that up Isaan – can see you, Sa Kaeo, are just below – oil palms need water and a water distribution system. Furthermore the statistic outcome is too low compared to Southern Thailand.

I quote from an TVForum oil-palm farmer in Suratthani, who kindly provided me with these facts last year:

. . .

You need good water supply (high rainfall)

23 to 25 trees per Rai.

Average yield per rai (ton).

1.9 to 2.2.tons. Trees over 4 yrs 2.45 tons. Begin cropping around 2 yrs

Price per ton varies, often daily, so you will have to look at the PO market price.

17 Rai average Bht100,000 per year

You need to be within reasonable distance of Pam Oil Mill.

Contractor cutters will cut and transport to mill at reasonable rates.

Best area for PO is from Chumpon south.

Best rainfall avg not less than 1800mm per year

Best avg sunlight 6 hrs daily

Days of drought preferably not more than 60 days

Very little in the way of pests, however Rats can be a nuisance as they chew the nuts.

Crop cut every 20 days, but my wife uses fertilizer so gets a crop every 15 days (many will not carry the extra expense, but in the long run it certainly pays)

Facts.

Rainfall........................Chumpon 2029mm

Krabi 1852mm

Surat Thani 1710mm

Prachup Kiri Khan 1160mm

Avg days of drought.

Prachup KK 195

Surat Thani 120

Krabi 90

Chumpon 82

Very good but expensive book.

"Growing Palm Oil"

By RHV Corley & PB Tinker.

ISBN. 0632052120.

It will tell you everything you need to know

7.8 acres = 20 Rai

(sic.)

I’ve been checking on oil-palms myself, and found this link of interest:

http://www.greenpalm.org/en/blog-press/blog/thai-smallholders-introducing-the-idea-of-rspo-sustainable-palm-oil-cultivation

Also important to check if others are growing oil-palms in the area and if you have a mill nearby or other kind of collection facility.

My note summary (2014) from various (other than above link) forums and sources:

· 30 kg/month per tree in north, south 50 kg/tree

· Palm oil mill near Surin

· Probably deliver to local weighing station

· South 16 to 20 tonnes per ha. (1 ha = 10,0000 m2 eq. 6 rai)

· 16,000/6 = 2.650 kg/rai (average lower for small farmers)

· 2008-2010 price range 2,50 baht/kg to 7,00 bath/kg

It’s worth noticing, that small oil-palm farms/plantations (so-called “smallholders”) have a lower outcome.

Wish you good luck with your plans...

[BakHamLe]

Thats some very useful info, thank you! I will check out that book.