UK visitor visa.

[sandyf]

We went to Trendy yesterday to submit another visa application to go to the UK. The appointment system is at 10 minute intervals and they say on the website it should take about 10 minutes. She was in there for about an hour and three quarters and again subjected to an interrogation.

They asked her my son's full name, age, what he did for a living and who did he live with. They then proceeded to go through the itinerary that I had prepared. Why were we going to the various places, who were we meeting and what was the relationship.

This is my wife's fourth application and had a similar experience on the first. There was no interrogation on the second and third so it is obviously at the discretion of the VFS staff.

It really is appalling that people that have been married for several years get treated in this manner.

[MaprangHolmes]

VFS staff have NO right to integrate anyone they are simply used to collect applications and bio information, you really should lodge a complaint about the treatment that you wife revived

[durhamboy]

It seems to me that people get different treatment from different staff at VFS. Some say it is good others that it is bad. That suggests to me that staff training at VFS is sporadic at best. I also think that some VFS staff think that because they have a miniscule amount of authority in dealing with, in most cases, a fellow Thai who needs something from them then they (the VFS staff) can make it as easy or difficult for the applicant as they wish.

This is what you get when you add a third party (VFS) into the process. Thanks HMG.

[7by7]

VFS staff have NO right to integrate anyone they are simply used to collect applications and bio information, you really should lodge a complaint about the treatment that you wife revived

Indeed, VFS' job is to collect the documents, take the applicants biometrics, arrange and receive payment for any additional services, such as courier return of passport, required by the applicant and forward the application to the embassy.

Then, once the decision has been made and the passport and documents returned to them, inform the applicant that their passport awaits collection or will be sent to them via courier; depending on the option chosen by the applicant when they submitted the application.

They should most definitely not be interrogating anyone.

Sandyf, unless people who have been subjected to such treatment complain, nothing will be done.

Complaints procedure

[PeeJay1959]

Most definitely complain, the process can be stressful enough without VFS doing this. I really fail to see how outsourcing save money, locally employed staff for the Embassy properly trained would surely be a better solution.

[wooloomooloo]

Your wife doesn't have to answer personal questions of this nature. It could be that the staff member was trying to be helpful but, still, their remit is limited to what 7by7 describes above.

Maybe you could cajole your wife to be more confident in future and state that all the answers are detailed in the application and that she doesn't require any further assistance on that front, thank you very much.

It's certainly in her best interests to be as such and merely engage the administrative officer with platitudes and pleasantries at most.

[MickeyM]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

[theoldgit]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

Yes, but that's assuming they are competent enough to carry out a triage check on the application and the supporting documents, which they're not.

They use a checklist and that's about as far as their skills go.

I have to say that my girlfriend hasn't had any issues with their staff when she's submitted her applications over the years, but I'm pretty sure that if a document was left out at their suggestion and a visa application is subsequently unsuccessful, and it happens, there would be no recourse.

[MickeyM]

Yes, but that's assuming they are competent enough to carry out a triage check on the application and the supporting documents, which they're not.

They use a checklist and that's about as far as their skills go.

I have to say that my girlfriend hasn't had any issues with their staff when she's submitted her applications over the years, but I'm pretty sure that if a document was left out at their suggestion and a visa application is subsequently unsuccessful, and it happens, there would be no recourse.

But the checklist covers a lot of points many submitters overlook. A valuable approach if followed consistently. Polite suggestions by VFS staff can avoid many rejections - they are aware of many conditions as to why there are rejections.

[theoldgit]

But the checklist covers a lot of points many submitters overlook. A valuable approach if followed consistently. Polite suggestions by VFS staff can avoid many rejections - they are aware of many conditions as to why there are rejections.

Indeed it can be a valuable approach, as you say, if followed consistently.

Certainly an application could fail if an application is missing a vital document that a check list identifies, maybe the check list should be made available to potential applicants, like it used to be, that would negate the need for applicants needing to scurry round looking for relevant evidence when they submit their application supporting evidence.

But of course this thread isn't actually about VFS clerks pointing out missing documents, it's about the perceived interrogation of applicants and the ad hoc removal of evidence that applicants deem necessary to support their application.

[MaprangHolmes]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

As has already been said VFS staff are not trained to give advice about an application there is plenty of information around to tell you what you need to include in an application for a visa. The real problem which has happened many time is VFS staff thinking that they know what they are doing and remove documents or as has been stated try and interrogate someone about the contents of his/hers application. Which they do not have any right to do and until more people start complaining about this nothing is going to be done to stop them from carrying out this practice.

[sandyf]

VFS staff have NO right to integrate anyone they are simply used to collect applications and bio information, you really should lodge a complaint about the treatment that you wife revived

Indeed, VFS' job is to collect the documents, take the applicants biometrics, arrange and receive payment for any additional services, such as courier return of passport, required by the applicant and forward the application to the embassy.

Then, once the decision has been made and the passport and documents returned to them, inform the applicant that their passport awaits collection or will be sent to them via courier; depending on the option chosen by the applicant when they submitted the application.

They should most definitely not be interrogating anyone.

Sandyf, unless people who have been subjected to such treatment complain, nothing will be done.

Complaints procedure

I would have thought that you would have realised that Thai people do not complain about Thai people. There is no way that my wife would make or support a complaint against VFS. They just tolerate incompetence and injustice from their own.

I just find it scandalous that after 7 years of living together and 3 previous visits to the UK that we still have to face this kind of scenario. At the end of the day it is down to the UK government, we got the visitor visa for Canada without leaving home.

The majority of Europe, 26 countries, agree that an EU national and spouse travelling together should be treated as a special case.

"Family members of EU citizens must be treated more favourably than other third country nationals“. (Part III Section 3.4)

David Cameron preaches family values, but if the the family members are foreign nationals they have no value.

[sandyf]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

The application fee is paid online before you go to VFS.

[sandyf]

Your wife doesn't have to answer personal questions of this nature. It could be that the staff member was trying to be helpful but, still, their remit is limited to what 7by7 describes above.

Maybe you could cajole your wife to be more confident in future and state that all the answers are detailed in the application and that she doesn't require any further assistance on that front, thank you very much.

It's certainly in her best interests to be as such and merely engage the administrative officer with platitudes and pleasantries at most.

That is not an issue, she was the financial director of a European company up until she retired last year. As I said previously this was the 4th application and the second interrogation.

[MickeyM]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

The application fee is paid online before you go to VFS.

That is a mute point - if the application gets forwarded to the Embassy and is missing critical documents, you start over and pay the fee again.

[sandyf]

May I introduce a different perspective; Given that the application fee is non-refundable, I would like to see VFS point out any flaws in my application prior to submission to the Embassy. A minor oversight might cause a rejection and a new application would incur a second fee.

The application fee is paid online before you go to VFS.

That is a mute point - if the application gets forwarded to the Embassy and is missing critical documents, you start over and pay the fee again.

Apologies, I read your post in a different context. Up until end of 2013 fees were paid to VFS.

VFS used to have a checklist on the website but they took it away. All you get now is some suggestions and as many point out it is not up to them what should be included.

Here is a copy of their old checklist.

VisitSpouseOfUKCitizen(BasedInThailand).pdf

[theoldgit]

A number of bickering posts removed.

[7by7]

VFS used to have a checklist on the website but they took it away. All you get now is some suggestions and as many point out it is not up to them what should be included.

Here is a copy of their old checklist.

VisitSpouseOfUKCitizen(BasedInThailand).pdf

That document, whilst useful as a guide, took no account of an individual applicant's circumstances and is now out of date.

It could also be dangerously misleading; especially the 'declaration' at the bottom, as it misled some applicants into believing that they must submit every document on the list and if they did then the application would be approved.

There has been for some time a guide on the UKVI website which has recently been updated and is now in four sections:

1. documents you must submit,
2. suggested documents dependent upon your circumstances
3. documents specific to the category of visitor and
4. documents you need not submit unless specifically requested to do so.

[wooloomooloo]

Your wife doesn't have to answer personal questions of this nature. It could be that the staff member was trying to be helpful but, still, their remit is limited to what 7by7 describes above.

Maybe you could cajole your wife to be more confident in future and state that all the answers are detailed in the application and that she doesn't require any further assistance on that front, thank you very much.

It's certainly in her best interests to be as such and merely engage the administrative officer with platitudes and pleasantries at most.

That is not an issue, she was the financial director of a European company up until she retired last year. As I said previously this was the 4th application and the second interrogation.

If your wife isn't prepared to make, or support, a complaint and allows herself to be interrogated rather than stand her ground, there's not much more to say otherwise we'll be going round in circles. Good luck.

[sandyf]

VFS used to have a checklist on the website but they took it away. All you get now is some suggestions and as many point out it is not up to them what should be included.

Here is a copy of their old checklist.

VisitSpouseOfUKCitizen(BasedInThailand).pdf

That document, whilst useful as a guide, took no account of an individual applicant's circumstances and is now out of date.

It could also be dangerously misleading; especially the 'declaration' at the bottom, as it misled some applicants into believing that they must submit every document on the list and if they did then the application would be approved.

There has been for some time a guide on the UKVI website which has recently been updated and is now in four sections:

1. documents you must submit,
2. suggested documents dependent upon your circumstances
3. documents specific to the category of visitor and
4. documents you need not submit unless specifically requested to do so.

How to make an issue out of historical information in one easy lesson.

[sandyf]

Your wife doesn't have to answer personal questions of this nature. It could be that the staff member was trying to be helpful but, still, their remit is limited to what 7by7 describes above.

Maybe you could cajole your wife to be more confident in future and state that all the answers are detailed in the application and that she doesn't require any further assistance on that front, thank you very much.

It's certainly in her best interests to be as such and merely engage the administrative officer with platitudes and pleasantries at most.

That is not an issue, she was the financial director of a European company up until she retired last year. As I said previously this was the 4th application and the second interrogation.

If your wife isn't prepared to make, or support, a complaint and allows herself to be interrogated rather than stand her ground, there's not much more to say otherwise we'll be going round in circles. Good luck.

Exactly right, it is the system that need to change, not people.

Looks like the Embassy has become a bit more efficient. Submitted on Monday and got an email this morning from the fco address that a decision had been made.

[MaprangHolmes]

Your wife doesn't have to answer personal questions of this nature. It could be that the staff member was trying to be helpful but, still, their remit is limited to what 7by7 describes above.

Maybe you could cajole your wife to be more confident in future and state that all the answers are detailed in the application and that she doesn't require any further assistance on that front, thank you very much.

It's certainly in her best interests to be as such and merely engage the administrative officer with platitudes and pleasantries at most.

That is not an issue, she was the financial director of a European company up until she retired last year. As I said previously this was the 4th application and the second interrogation.

If your wife isn't prepared to make, or support, a complaint and allows herself to be interrogated rather than stand her ground, there's not much more to say otherwise we'll be going round in circles. Good luck.

Exactly right, it is the system that need to change, not people.

Looks like the Embassy has become a bit more efficient. Submitted on Monday and got an email this morning from the fco address that a decision had been made.

The system does allow for a person from VFS to question anybody about an application. It is the people that are working within the VFS system that are breaking the rules on submitting an application. Unless you can show me where it says that VFS staff are aloud to interrogate you on a visa application that they have know knowledge on or will make any difference to the decision that is going to be made on your application. They are merely a collection point of applications and bio-metric information.

[7by7]

VFS used to have a checklist on the website but they took it away. All you get now is some suggestions and as many point out it is not up to them what should be included.

Here is a copy of their old checklist.

VisitSpouseOfUKCitizen(BasedInThailand).pdf

That document, whilst useful as a guide, took no account of an individual applicant's circumstances and is now out of date.

It could also be dangerously misleading; especially the 'declaration' at the bottom, as it misled some applicants into believing that they must submit every document on the list and if they did then the application would be approved.

There has been for some time a guide on the UKVI website which has recently been updated and is now in four sections:

1. documents you must submit,
2. suggested documents dependent upon your circumstances
3. documents specific to the category of visitor and
4. documents you need not submit unless specifically requested to do so.

How to make an issue out of historical information in one easy lesson.

Simply posting the latest version of the guide.

Which do you think is more useful to members; a document several years out of date or the latest version?

[7by7]

If your wife isn't prepared to make, or support, a complaint and allows herself to be interrogated rather than stand her ground, there's not much more to say otherwise we'll be going round in circles. Good luck.

Exactly right, it is the system that need to change, not people.

Looks like the Embassy has become a bit more efficient. Submitted on Monday and got an email this morning from the fco address that a decision had been made.

As repeatedly said, VFS staff have no right to question applicants, just as the staff at the embassy had no right to do so when applications were submitted there.

It is not the system that is at fault, it is some of the staff at VFS; who are acting way beyond their remit and the terms of VFS's contract with UKVI by questioning applicants.

If people subjected to this poor service and questioning do not make official complaints, nothing will be done to rectify this.

OK, I accept that an individual complaint may just get a form answer, but one thing is irrefutable; if enough people complain something might be done, if no one complains nothing will be done.

BTW, processing time depends mainly upon demand, the number of ECOs stationed at the embassy is constant, the number of applications received isn't. The more applications received at a given time, the longer each application takes to reach the 'top of the pile' and be processed by an ECO.

Now is a relatively quiet time of year for applications, come June/July when the student applications start to pour in, it will be different.

Edited May 1, 2015 by 7by7

[sandyf]

If your wife isn't prepared to make, or support, a complaint and allows herself to be interrogated rather than stand her ground, there's not much more to say otherwise we'll be going round in circles. Good luck.

Exactly right, it is the system that need to change, not people.

Looks like the Embassy has become a bit more efficient. Submitted on Monday and got an email this morning from the fco address that a decision had been made.

It is not the system that is at fault,

The Canada visitor visa can be obtained without leaving home, a real bonus for those living some distance from BKK.

Living in the UK you don't see the need to change the system, just make complaints about VFS.

[durhamboy]

I agree sandyf it is definitely the system that is at fault. If you add a third party into the system (as HMG have done) then it will almost certainly be to the detriment of the system. I wonder what "audit" checks the embassy does with VFS if any.

It seems those in this forum who are supporting this system are mainly those that have never had any direct experience of dealing with VFS.

[7by7]

<snip>

The Canada visitor visa can be obtained without leaving home, a real bonus for those living some distance from BKK.

Many countries, the UK, the Schengen states, the USA etc., require visa applicants to submit biometrics; obviously this can only be done in person. Canada does not yet require biometrics from all applicants.

If you are exempt from giving biometrics you can complete the whole Canadian visa process via the post; otherwise you do have to attend the Canadian VAC in person to have biometrics taken.

Temporary Resident Visa / Permits and Travel Documents Application Process (Canada call a visit visa a temporary resident visa.)

Living in the UK you don't see the need to change the system, just make complaints about VFS.

Given that biometrics are required, and I can see the security and fraud prevention reasons for that requirement, then I see no need for a change in the system.

Whatever it's faults, the system now is certainly better than the system when I first became involved in UK visa applications 15 years ago.

• Arrive at the embassy early morning to make sure you were close enough to the head of the queue to be among those lucky enough to be admitted that day;
• queue in the sun for a couple of hours before being admitted and given an application form;
• after filling in form, queue to pay fee;
• wait for a couple more hours to see an ECO, only to be told to come back on day x at time y for an interview; usually several weeks away!

All that for a visit visa; same procedure when my wife applied for her settlement visa.

I realty cannot understand your enthusiasm for complaining about the treatment your wife received on an internet forum, but total lack of same for making a complaint to the people who can actually do something to rectify the situation; UKVI!

I agree sandyf it is definitely the system that is at fault. If you add a third party into the system (as HMG have done) then it will almost certainly be to the detriment of the system. I wonder what "audit" checks the embassy does with VFS if any.

Not sure if any embassy carries out checks on the performance of their VAC; but the Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee has and there is an official Home Office body, whose title escapes me at the moment, who check performance etc. at embassy entry clearance sections and VACs at random throughout the world.

Plus, of course, there is the complaints procedure previously referred to.

It seems those in this forum who are supporting this system are mainly those that have never had any direct experience of dealing with VFS.

Like you, I have never entered the Bangkok VAC as only applicants are allowed in.

However, my last involvement with them was in February this year when my sister in law applied for her second visit visa. When was yours?

Like her previous application, like my step son's application as well; no problems encountered at all; let alone any form of interrogation such as that described in the OP.

In my opinion, the current system is infinitely better than the system described above when my then fiancée, now wife, applied for her first visit visa!

But maybe you'd enjoying queuing for a couple of hours in the sun in Wireless Road only to be told to come back tomorrow!

[durhamboy]

Wrong 7by7 - I have been to VFS Bangkok. Twice in fact. Once to submit my wife's SV application and, yes, I had to wait outside. Second time I went in to pick up her result. You, on the other hand, have never been there. I did not have any problem with the VFS staff but I do listen to those that have had problems.

Yes I do prefer the "good old days" when applicants actually went to the embassy. In those days you could actually talk to people who worked there rather than a third party. In fact on at least 2 seperate occasions I actually talked at length with an ECO and on one of those occasions the ECO actually issued a visa in advance of getting a required document. There was also a third occasion where a visa was issued on the spot without any interview. All these instances were at British embassies in Manila,and Hong Kong.

Over the years the service to the customer has declined whilst getting more and more expensive. Outsourcing visa applications is just one example of this decline in service. Instead of being able to talk to real people what do you get now? A premium telephone line which, according to a lot of people, rarely gives a satisfactory response.

As for "audit" checks, yes I know that there is a system to have an internal audit of embassy performance - usually by a government inspection team from London. I have never heard of this being done for third party VACs. It would be a good idea if they did. Possibly it is done now but somehow I doubt it.

[7by7]

Wrong 7by7 - I have been to VFS Bangkok. Twice in fact. Once to submit my wife's SV application and, yes, I had to wait outside. Second time I went in to pick up her result. You, on the other hand, have never been there. I did not have any problem with the VFS staff but I do listen to those that have had problems.........

How am I wrong? I never said that you had not been to VFS!

What I did say was that my last involvement with them was in February this year and I asked you when yours was. You have declined to answer that simple question.

I have given my experiences when applications were made at the embassy; that you prefer that to the current one is a matter of choice; and your choice seems coloured by the positive experiences you had in Manila and Hong Kong, whilst mine is coloured by three negative experiences in Bangkok. On all three occasions we were, like you and most applicants, able to talk to the ECO; but much good it did us.

I still remember the first, my then fiancée's visit application. When told by an ECO to come back in three weeks for an interview, I remarked that when I had phoned them prior to coming I had been told that 95% of visit visas were issued on the same day. Her reply? "That's because 95% of applicants are proper, professional people; your girlfriend is neither!" Both she and I were lucky that there was a sheet of thick glass between us!

At her interview she was declined; on reason to return grounds because we had not provided any evidence that her daughter, who was applying too, attended school and had to be back by a certain date. Unlike you, we were not given the opportunity to get this evidence, despite the document list we had previously been given saying that we would be given such an opportunity to provide missing documents. The, this time male, ECO simply said "I've made my decision; that's the end of it. You'd better leave before I call security!"

I am prepared to bet any amount of money you care to mention that our experiences in Bangkok were more typical than yours elsewhere!

Having been taught by that experience what to expect, on the next two occasions, wife and step daughter's settlement applications (accepted) and a later settlement application by my step son (declined), we simply accepted that this was the way the embassy staff treated the majority of applicants.

Though I must say that at her settlement interview my wife was treated a lot more politely by that ECO than by the two previous ones; luck of the draw, I suppose.

You seem to be forgetting that whether applications are submitted directly to the embassy or via a VAC, someone has to accept and collate the application, collect biometrics etc. Personally, I'd rather this be done by clerks than ECOs, leaving the ECOs to get on with their job and thus reducing processing times.

I am not claiming the system is perfect, as my posts in other topics show I do not believe that it is; but I do believe that the use of VACs, whether manned by directly employed UKVI staff or outsourced to a third party, whether in the embassy itself or another building, is an improvement on the old system.

I, also, listen to those who have had problems, and I try to advise them on what they should do. As I have advised the OP what action he should take.

That he declines to take that action is not my fault.

If you read the link I have previously provided, you will see that the performance of VACs is subject to investigation.

The behaviour of VFS staff as described in the OP is outside their remit and against the terms of the contract between VFS and UKVI.

The more people who officially complain about such behaviour in a particular VAC, the more likely that VAC will be investigated.

If people just shrug their shoulders and moan on an internet forum instead of making a proper, official complaint, then nothing will be done to rectify the situation.

Edited May 4, 2015 by 7by7

[durhamboy]

7by7 you said "Like you, I have never entered the Bangkok VAC as only applicants are allowed in." Now is that not the same as saying that I have never been to VFS?

This topic is not about the decisions of ECOs it is about the treatment of applicants by VFS and you, sir, have never been there.

I do think there were a lot of things wrong in the old days but at least there was some chance of face to face contact with an ECO or someone who actually worked at the embassy. You had that opportunity and so did I. With the current system with VFS it is not possible to have the same sort of contact and that is to the detriment of the service. You seem to think it is an improvement!

It would be interesting to hear what Thai Visa Express and the Old Git think of the present arrangements.