There was no crackdown in 2010, says Abhisit witness

[irwinfc]

Where else have I heard that Thawil Pliensri name recently?

Thawil Pliensri, who served as director of the National Security Council under Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, was called by Thailand’s national anti-graft agency to testify in Abhisit's defense today.

So the NACC charges Abhisit, then calls a witness in his defense?

yup! only in Thailand - the land of smiles, crackdowns, coups, clowns, and circuses. these so-called news serve nothing else but entertainment. pop out the chips and open the cerveza!

[monkeycountry]

"armed militants had infiltrated the demonstrators"

Interesting choice of words. The posters in these forums who constantly demonise the entire red shirt movement as "terrorist", "violent" etc, should note this. Even a key person 'on the other side' talks in terms of infiltration, meaning that the MIB (etc) did not represent the majority aims and tactics of the protesters. And yet, it was mostly nurses, journalists, and other unarmed civilians who died in that crackdown-that-was-not-a-crackdown.

Unless you can name the soldiers, maybe the soldiers were infiltrated too, and it was not the real soldiers who did the shooting, but just someone dressed as soldiers?

If Thais agree on this, then neither side will have to take responsibility for what happened, and all responsibility can be blamed on the mysterious infiltrators on both sides.

You can keep blaming everything on Abhisit and the soldiers, just remember, whether you like it or not, that the other half of Thailand blame it on the red shirts and their leaders, and think the soldiers did a good job rescuing Bangkok from terrorists.

[monkeycountry]

"armed militants had infiltrated the demonstrators"

Interesting choice of words. The posters in these forums who constantly demonise the entire red shirt movement as "terrorist", "violent" etc, should note this. Even a key person 'on the other side' talks in terms of infiltration, meaning that the MIB (etc) did not represent the majority aims and tactics of the protesters. And yet, it was mostly nurses, journalists, and other unarmed civilians who died in that crackdown-that-was-not-a-crackdown.

But all the reds support Thaksin and he ordered the MiB to kill innocent people and soldiers so therefore all the reds are violent and in support of terrorism. Flawless logic, no?

Just remember there were many deadly attacks on civilians with grenades etc. by the red shirts long before the crackdown. And upon learning of these deadly attacks the red shirts and their leaders were filmed cheering about it on stage.

And who was it who was filmed on stage yelling for Bangkok to be burned down? (which eventually happened)

But hey, feel free to blame it all on magical black shirts

Edited April 29, 2015 by monkeycountry

[rametindallas]

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers. MIB and disguised MIB in red was sneaking in and out of the red shirt crowds shooting live rounds at the soldiers. I guess the gloves was off and everything went, as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers.

It is because all Thai governments that have caused the death of 'peaceful' protesters have resigned in the past. Thaksin was counting on Abhisit to resign and when he didn't, Thaksin escalated by having the protest leaders move the protest from Pan Fa Bridge to Ratchaprasong and Lumpini Park and build barricades which made the Abhisit government look powerless/weak in the face of organized opposition. Abhisit, still the gentleman held discussions with the UDD leaders and agreed to move elections ahead by six months. Still, that wasn't enough for Thaksin who escalated again by bringing in Seh Daeng (renegade General Khattiya Sawasdipol) and his 'Ronin Warriors' to escalate further including grenade attacks on Army headquarters, raiding a hospital, firing grenades at oil storage tanks, firing M-79 grenades at BTS statioons causing civilian deaths, etc.; all making Abhisit look weak and ineffective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khattiya_Sawasdipol

as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Seriously, are you trying to sell that old UDD chestnut? If your are referring to the way Abhisit came to power, that was two years before the Thaksin financed mob descended on Bangkok in 2010 so it doesn't have any bearing on the Red Shirt gatherings of 2010. It was a self-serving/selfish act of Thaksin, though, because the Abhisit government had just seized some of Thaksin's ill-gotten billions just weeks before the 2010 demonstrations. Thaksin didn't organize that attempted 'soft coup' until his assets were seized. Get your time-lines straight if you want credibility. Some of us are not to lazy to go to the internet to confirm dates and time and call you out on your Red Shirt propaganda.

[KimSamui]

This guy is a shame for this country, and for the people who died, as well.

What a bad guy. They have to learn, the use of the word "sorry".

I can see why he was replaced by the Yingluck Government.

[Just1Voice]

This is kind of line Suthep's comment: "We didn't mean to shoot anyone. They ran into the bullets themselves.".

[arrowsdawdle]

"Thawil said he was not trying to mince words"

Erm.........ok then.

Well, he is correct, no mincing, just redefining and inventing his own facts.

[ianf]

Yep , no mincing just straightforward blatant lying.

This is grossly unfair and completely ignores how people (ie redshirt leaders) manipulate these events. A 'crackdown' would have served their purpose perfectly. Abhisit, however, quite cleverly forced their hand (remember?); he offered to resign within 6 months but the red shirt leaders got on their phones to the great leader who appeared to have turned down that offer. Why? Because it did not suit his purpose. He needed to push the government as far as he possibly could so that he and his hordes could cry 'foul' at the turn of events. That Abhisit didn't fall for that trick is to his credit and the government of the day, given the severe provocation, played it quite cleverly. So the red PR went into overdrive blaming the government for actions that they themselves had perpetrated. When you are dealing with a sociopathic leader, this is the kind of manipulation you would expect to see. So please, don't talk out of your hat calling some government official a 'liar' when he was simply reporting what he had experienced - open your eyes and look at the wider picture, understand the plot.

[Balance]

Oxford English Dictionary definition

Crackdown: "A series of severe measures to restrict undesirable or illegal people or behaviour."

I ran into this obsession of Thais about English words and their mis-use of meaning. My brother sent me a heart monitor that measures heart rate and the "p" rhythm. It will tell you if you are experiencing atrial fibrillation. The Fedex people in Los Angeles put "Medical Device" on the shipping document.

When it got here, Fedex told me that I:

had to register as an "importer" with customs

according to Thai FDA rules I had to get a letter from a doctor at a government hospital that "I had to use this device."

After some work, I determined that the Fedex people and the FDA had defined "device" as something that did something to you. I pointed out that it only measured and did not do anything and was like a blood pressure cuff sold in every major pharmacy in Thailand. None of this had any meaning to them. They could not seem to understand that "device" has a generic meaning in English and is not a verb. Still working on getting it out of customs.

[monkeycountry]

Oxford English Dictionary definition

Crackdown: "A series of severe measures to restrict undesirable or illegal people or behaviour."

I ran into this obsession of Thais about English words and their mis-use of meaning. My brother sent me a heart monitor that measures heart rate and the "p" rhythm. It will tell you if you are experiencing atrial fibrillation. The Fedex people in Los Angeles put "Medical Device" on the shipping document.

When it got here, Fedex told me that I:

had to register as an "importer" with customs

according to Thai FDA rules I had to get a letter from a doctor at a government hospital that "I had to use this device."

After some work, I determined that the Fedex people and the FDA had defined "device" as something that did something to you. I pointed out that it only measured and did not do anything and was like a blood pressure cuff sold in every major pharmacy in Thailand. None of this had any meaning to them. They could not seem to understand that "device" has a generic meaning in English and is not a verb. Still working on getting it out of customs.

I believe whatever explanation Thai customs come up with translates to: "cash is king".

Edited April 29, 2015 by monkeycountry

[Fat Haggis]

Shooting people in the legs below the knees can still cause catastrophic bleeding which results in death by bleeding out in minutes if proper medical aid isn't given.

Not exactly the smartest order to have given.

People just don't run into bullets either, especially when these "bullets"'are travelling in excess of 1000 feet per second, it's not like running into a beam, or any other static object.They may have been struck by these "bullets", they didn't run into them!!

But what's in a play on words these days when it comes to the events of 2010

[bbbbooboo]

Well I guess the rest of the world must have been mistaken when they saw all the evidence of a crackdown

[Jim walker]

So this is how the Junta soldier boys act when it is not a crackdown, imagine how bad they would be with a mandate to crackdown issued by themselves, and this is the shower who are running Thailand now no wonder USA and Europe wants nothing to do with them especially as they appear to be above the law of the country, and can change the law to suit themselves.

[godden]

aussieinthailand mentions " fire at will" not good if your name is will.

[aaacorp]

So it was just a full moon party which went wrong

[EnglishJohn]

I've seen enough from red-shirts, Pheu-Thai and Thaksin to know by now that truth is something best avoided.

Whatever this circus turn up, reds will never accept it. We could have 10 videos of Thaksin himself throwing a grenade at the Army and the posters here would say they are all fake. Then they would proceed to attack the messenger who brought the news.

At the end of the day, Thailands problem is not Thaksin or Abhisit : it is the deplorable lack of ethics of certain people and their greed and jealousy of people who have money. They have this Thai trait of extreme spite against someone 'rich' who will not give them anything and extreme sycophancy to those they think might give them something. I see the same thing in the UK, but as usual Thailand has taken it to the extreme.

At the end of the day, you can't teach what these people haven't got. Whatever the outcome of this enquiry, if it doesn't suit their purpose they will reject it. It's called hypocrisy and we have seen plenty of it already.

[Lorn]

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers. MIB and disguised MIB in red was sneaking in and out of the red shirt crowds shooting live rounds at the soldiers. I guess the gloves was off and everything went, as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers.

It is because all Thai governments that have caused the death of 'peaceful' protesters have resigned in the past. Thaksin was counting on Abhisit to resign and when he didn't, Thaksin escalated by having the protest leaders move the protest from Pan Fa Bridge to Ratchaprasong and Lumpini Park and build barricades which made the Abhisit government look powerless/weak in the face of organized opposition. Abhisit, still the gentleman held discussions with the UDD leaders and agreed to move elections ahead by six months. Still, that wasn't enough for Thaksin who escalated again by bringing in Seh Daeng (renegade General Khattiya Sawasdipol) and his 'Ronin Warriors' to escalate further including grenade attacks on Army headquarters, raiding a hospital, firing grenades at oil storage tanks, firing M-79 grenades at BTS statioons causing civilian deaths, etc.; all making Abhisit look weak and ineffective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khattiya_Sawasdipol

as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Seriously, are you trying to sell that old UDD chestnut? If your are referring to the way Abhisit came to power, that was two years before the Thaksin financed mob descended on Bangkok in 2010 so it doesn't have any bearing on the Red Shirt gatherings of 2010. It was a self-serving/selfish act of Thaksin, though, because the Abhisit government had just seized some of Thaksin's ill-gotten billions just weeks before the 2010 demonstrations. Thaksin didn't organize that attempted 'soft coup' until his assets were seized. Get your time-lines straight if you want credibility. Some of us are not to lazy to go to the internet to confirm dates and time and call you out on your Red Shirt propaganda.

And what you're saying shouldn't be seen as yellow propaganda?

Have you forgotten all about the April 2009 protests. And don't you think that maybe the protests being the exact time the next year might have been to do with the timing of the farming seasons and not just a court ruling?

And why are you saying the Abhisit government government seized the assets? His assets were frozen in June 2007 by the Assets Examination committee under the previous Junta- I mean Council for National security. Are you alluding to there being a long standing unhealthy alliance between the military, courts and the elites? That's the kind of thing that would explain why certain parties are dissolved when others that are equally corrupt and involved in electoral fraud escape sanctions.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Lorn

[aaacorp]

I've seen enough from red-shirts, Pheu-Thai and Thaksin to know by now that truth is something best avoided.

Whatever this circus turn up, reds will never accept it. We could have 10 videos of Thaksin himself throwing a grenade at the Army and the posters here would say they are all fake. Then they would proceed to attack the messenger who brought the news.

At the end of the day, Thailands problem is not Thaksin or Abhisit : it is the deplorable lack of ethics of certain people and their greed and jealousy of people who have money. They have this Thai trait of extreme spite against someone 'rich' who will not give them anything and extreme sycophancy to those they think might give them something. I see the same thing in the UK, but as usual Thailand has taken it to the extreme.

At the end of the day, you can't teach what these people haven't got. Whatever the outcome of this enquiry, if it doesn't suit their purpose they will reject it. It's called hypocrisy and we have seen plenty of it already.

So what is your point : they deserves to be adjusted, media threatened and polls results must be cancelled if not suiting the PM, army, Elite and above?

[SLESQ]

Accept that Thais know how to speak and use English better than anyone. Period. What do they care how words in English are defined and used by English speakers and English writers. How many more examples does anyone need: democracy, justice, or even here, "crack down." Check out a few definitions below just to be sure,OK, and then accept that any Thai, especially the elite, is then free to use what ever definition he or she chooses to use.

crack·down (krăk′doun′) n.

An act or example of forceful regulation, repression, or restraint: a crackdown on crime.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

crack•down (ˈkrækˌdaʊn) n.

the severe or stern enforcement of laws or regulations.

[1930–35, Amer.] Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Thesaurus - AntonymsRelated WordsSynonymsLegend:

crackdown - severely repressive actions

Noun: crushing, quelling, stifling, suppression - forceful prevention; putting down by power or authority; "the suppression of heresy";

"the quelling of the rebellion"; "the stifling of all dissent"

Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

crackdown

noun clampdown, crushing, repression, suppression The government have announced a

crack down on welfare fraud.

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

Crackdown noun

Sudden punitive action:

clampdown, repression, suppression.

The American Heritage® Roget's Thesaurus. Copyright © 2013, 2014 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

[aussieinthailand]

I've seen enough from red-shirts, Pheu-Thai and Thaksin to know by now that truth is something best avoided.

Whatever this circus turn up, reds will never accept it. We could have 10 videos of Thaksin himself throwing a grenade at the Army and the posters here would say they are all fake. Then they would proceed to attack the messenger who brought the news.

At the end of the day, Thailands problem is not Thaksin or Abhisit : it is the deplorable lack of ethics of certain people and their greed and jealousy of people who have money. They have this Thai trait of extreme spite against someone 'rich' who will not give them anything and extreme sycophancy to those they think might give them something. I see the same thing in the UK, but as usual Thailand has taken it to the extreme.

At the end of the day, you can't teach what these people haven't got. Whatever the outcome of this enquiry, if it doesn't suit their purpose they will reject it. It's called hypocrisy and we have seen plenty of it already.

"it is the deplorable lack of ethics of certain people and their greed and jealousy of people with money"." They have this Thai trait of extreme spite against someone" "rich".

I'm sure there are some people that are like this, though through my experience not very many Thai's have this proclaimed trait as you call it, but rather very much in the opposite direction, Some of Those with the BMW or Merc, in positions of wealth and power have the distain and contempt of the poor and lower educated and those of a lower social economic background quit often make very public degrading spiteful and disgusting comments of those they see as low-so's, stupid, dirty, buffalo's, and should not be allowed to vote, but I'm having a hard time finding any of these comments on social media, about the elites hi-so's. But ok if you say so it must be true

Edited April 29, 2015 by aussieinthailand

[rubl]

The 'non violent civil disobedience' of the peaceful protesters was met with equally civil and polite requests to move along, nothing to see here.

In other words, both parties exchanged gunfire but one side was peaceful and the other side didn't crack.

[tx22cb]

Authorizing soldiers to shoot below the knees?

They've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Most of the under-trained Thai soldiers have worse aims than Dick Cheney.

[Wombat6]

"Thawil said he was not trying to mince words"

Erm.........ok then.

Yep , no mincing just straightforward blatant lying.

You must be very knowledgable to know this.....please tell us all how you came by evidence to prove this.

[oneday]

There is so much going wrong in Thailand right now it's hard to keep track of it all.

First of all why does the NACC have anything at all to do with this. A crackdown, use of excessive force, killings...none of that has anything to do with corruption. Second of all, Abhisit is making it quite clear he is against the CDC's anti-Democratic constitution and so all this push to embroil him in this NOW is extremely suspect.

There is NO QUESTION there was a crackdown, but until they know exactly what happened no one should be brought up on charges. As much as I didn't like who Abhisit was representing I think he had to do something and as a matter of fact he should have done it sooner before it got out-of-hand. Did soldiers fire indiscriminately or were they only firing at people firing on them. No one seems to be interested in finding out the real truth. They seem to only be interested in making headlines and getting rid of opposition to this junta government.

[hawksway]

He's right and most people should understand that under the Thai Constitution, the Armed Forces do not take their orders from any Politicians. It was the Head of the Army who took the decision to quell the violence.

[rametindallas]

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers. MIB and disguised MIB in red was sneaking in and out of the red shirt crowds shooting live rounds at the soldiers. I guess the gloves was off and everything went, as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Not sure what the guy in Abu Dabhi expected as an outcome using the MIB to provoke a response from the soldiers.

It is because all Thai governments that have caused the death of 'peaceful' protesters have resigned in the past. Thaksin was counting on Abhisit to resign and when he didn't, Thaksin escalated by having the protest leaders move the protest from Pan Fa Bridge to Ratchaprasong and Lumpini Park and build barricades which made the Abhisit government look powerless/weak in the face of organized opposition. Abhisit, still the gentleman held discussions with the UDD leaders and agreed to move elections ahead by six months. Still, that wasn't enough for Thaksin who escalated again by bringing in Seh Daeng (renegade General Khattiya Sawasdipol) and his 'Ronin Warriors' to escalate further including grenade attacks on Army headquarters, raiding a hospital, firing grenades at oil storage tanks, firing M-79 grenades at BTS statioons causing civilian deaths, etc.; all making Abhisit look weak and ineffective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khattiya_Sawasdipol

as his party had been subjected to yet another coup, although this time by using the judiciary and anti corruption institutions.

Seriously, are you trying to sell that old UDD chestnut? If your are referring to the way Abhisit came to power, that was two years before the Thaksin financed mob descended on Bangkok in 2010 so it doesn't have any bearing on the Red Shirt gatherings of 2010. It was a self-serving/selfish act of Thaksin, though, because the Abhisit government had just seized some of Thaksin's ill-gotten billions just weeks before the 2010 demonstrations. Thaksin didn't organize that attempted 'soft coup' until his assets were seized. Get your time-lines straight if you want credibility. Some of us are not to lazy to go to the internet to confirm dates and time and call you out on your Red Shirt propaganda.

And what you're saying shouldn't be seen as yellow propaganda?

Have you forgotten all about the April 2009 protests. And don't you think that maybe the protests being the exact time the next year might have been to do with the timing of the farming seasons and not just a court ruling?

And why are you saying the Abhisit government government seized the assets? His assets were frozen in June 2007 by the Assets Examination committee under the previous Junta- I mean Council for National security. Are you alluding to there being a long standing unhealthy alliance between the military, courts and the elites? That's the kind of thing that would explain why certain parties are dissolved when others that are equally corrupt and involved in electoral fraud escape sanctions.

why are you saying the Abhisit government government seized the assets? His assets were frozen in June 2007

Nice Straw Man you knocked over as I said 'siezed' and not 'frozen'. If you change my argument, you can win every time.

Immediately following the verdict (on February 26, 2010) to partially seize Thaksin’s asset amounting to 46.37 billion baht (approx. US$ 1.54 bn.) by the supreme court for the political office holders, Thaksin Shinawatra (a fugitive abroad escaping a two-year-jail term on corruption), his political party (Pheu Thai), and the vanguards of the red-shirt mob, started organizing a mass movement aiming at overthrowing the Abhisit government. Their strategies were obvious:

1.1 Although the real motive for their attempt to overthrow the government was to restore the Thaksin’s regime, the Thaksinists justified their action by putting the blames on the unjust verdict of the supreme court for political office holders for delivering a verdict confiscating Thaksin’s asset, the illegal military coup against Thaksin in September 2006 and the subsequent loss of power through legal and parliamentary means of Thaksin’s proxies, and the illegitimate coalition government of Abhisit allegedly formed with the support of the military and the president of the privy council, General Prem Tinsulanonda. By trying to restore the Thaksin’s regime, the Thaksinists aspired to whitewash all criminal charges (about 10 cases) against Thaksin still pending in the judicial processes, including his two-year jail sentence on corruption. They thought that their wishes could be realized through a new general election, so that they vehemently demanded for a dissolution of the House of Representatives – which the red-shirt movement nicely called “returning the power to the people.” These tactics, using fabricated information of past events to cover up their unjust interests and demands, seemed to have worked in their image-building... (the article continues)

http://www.thaiworld.org/enn/thailand_monitor/answera.php?question_id=1029

You can create and knock down Straw Men all day and all night but the truth remains.

Have you forgotten all about the April 2009 protests

No, as I mentioned in post #9, that is why Col. Romklao was murdered. Do you even bother to read/comprehend before posting?

Urban-terrorism tactics alienating the public

By Thanong Khanthong

The Nation Published on April 14, 2009

His (Thaksin's) strategy is simple. After torpedoing the Asean Summit in Pattaya, the red-shirt anti-government protesters stage urban-style terrorism around key points in Bangkok so that Abhisit is forced to declare a state of emergency. Then the military has to be brought in to quash the red-shirt protesters. When the military suppresses the protests, there will be bloodshed and the situation will spill out of control, creating a state of anarchy. Finally, the strategy goes, Thaksin's supporters petition His Majesty the King for a royal intervention to end the crisis.

Under this plan, Thaksin is seeking to hold Thailand hostage as he bargains for his amnesty. When the worst came to the worst, a military coup would be launched to bring down the Abhisit Vejjajiva government.

But Thaksin's game plan is not working. First, the red-shirt protesters' urban-terrorism tactics have spiraled out of control to create an effective state of civil war inside the capital. Second, they have failed to mobilise enough critical mass support. Third, the Thai public - appalled by the violence and the protesters' clashes with the security forces - does not support the red shirts.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/14/politics/politics_30100468.php

I noticed you don't include ANY links to web-sites to refute any of my statements. Why is that?

[rubl]

Authorizing soldiers to shoot below the knees?

They've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Most of the under-trained Thai soldiers have worse aims than Dick Cheney.

I vaguely remember having read that lots of wounded on April 10th were wounded in the legs. Mind you, with Robert A. writing in his report to the ICC the army fired thousands of rounds into the densely packed crowd of peaceful protesters. I guess that was when they were firing while retreating in near panic, from the peaceful protesters that is.

Edited April 29, 2015 by rubl

[rubl]

He's right and most people should understand that under the Thai Constitution, the Armed Forces do not take their orders from any Politicians. It was the Head of the Army who took the decision to quell the violence.

So, Abhisit and Suthep are not guilty of 'abuse of power' ? They will be relieved to hear that confirmed by TVF members.

Edited April 29, 2015 by rubl

[Stargeezr]

Interesting comments made. I wonder if most of you still want Thaksin or his sister in power?

Really! I am glad that the troubles of Thailand there we all witnessed have been made to stop.

I just hope that some day, Thailand can have a democratic government and society that gets past

being as corrupt as it has been. For those who don't know what corrupt means, drive your motorcycles around without

helmet on as see what the various prices are. Better yet just drive some fancy rented vehicles around, and soon

you will see. Or drive up to some of the fanciest mansions in the country and see who actually has a lot more than one,

and where did they get all of the money needed to own more than one big house or mansion in Thailand.

That my friends and fellow Farangs is a bit of what corruption looks like. Don't worry I see lots of it here in Canada as

well so I do know what I am talking about.

[pedro01]

Of course. Everyone knows the army pulled back. The black shirts then shot at the protesters so that the protesters could claim later that there was a crackdown.

Of course. Everyone knows that the army was pulled back knowing that the reds would regroup, get more provocative which would justify the eventual army crackdown (the one that never happened).

On that day, the reds moved to Kok Wua - they marched there - threatening to take another part of Bangkok.

They were met by the military, who were ambushed.

Given that the reds instigated the move to the area as well as the violence, I find it hard to see how the army can be blamed for what occurred there.

It seemed more like a pre-meditated move by the red leadership.