Foreign teachers in Thailand hope for stability amid education overhaul

[Fullstop]

You'll get two of these automatically but the third and subsequent ones are dependent on you actively pursuing some form of education qualification. There are a number of options in this respect details of which can be found in other threads.

Unfortunately those "options" are all "up in the air" at the moment. Which is basically what this thread is all about,

EDIT: Read the full article linked to in the first post.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Fullstop

[Rhys]

^ Like previously mentioned ... All waivers used. School can't get another one. They want me to stay on a tourist visa ... flight booked to Sydney in September.

Goodbye Thailand...

Hello China.

Is not the work week in China for English teachers MONDAY to SAT... I taught in China for a brief spell... and English teaching in China...seems in the growing pain... many of the English in the box shops have popped up and have been leading the charge..

Why did you not look at other provinces?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Rhys

[Fullstop]

Is not the work week in China for English teachers MONDAY to SAT...

Depends on the job. Not usually.

I taught in China for a brief spell... and English teaching in China...seems in the growing pain...

When I work that out...I'll respond.

Why did you not look at other provinces?

The TCT is active over the entire country.

[zeichen]

"Is not the work week in China for English teachers MONDAY to SAT"

Yes, at academy positions.

The problem for me is the low pay. 6-8k rmb a month is standard which is 30-40k baht equivalent. They do pay for airfare and accomodation though. It is a pain to exchange currency as it is not tradeable. The process to get hired takes well over a month.

Unless you have a degree in education or a teacher's license from your home country and experience, it isn't worth teaching in China just for the money. International school jobs pay very well but the EFL positions tend to suck.

If one is to teach EFL abroad just for money, South Korea is still competive but the best is the Middle East. Any degree and a TEFL certificate and you are earning more than 100k baht equivalent a month.

[Fullstop]

^ Thanks for the second hand and dated information...

Now.. Can we get back on topic?

THAILAND ... Foreign teachers ... Change of employment requirements etc..

[zeichen]

First of all, I have taught 4 years in Korea, 2 years in China, 1 year in UAE and 6 months in Suadi (I hated it there but pay was good) 10+ years in Thailand, 3 years in my home country. So I don't have second hand anything.

You are the one that said I'm off to China. I was giving some general information to what you would encounter. Going to China to teach EFL just for money is silly.

As for the specific topic of the article, nothing is concrete. It was just an assesment of changes in the industry and the fact that there will be many more to come.

The simple fact is that everything is up in the air. Whatever you do this year to satisfy the requirements could change next year.

Everything is speculation as every single office has been giving out different information. Each school has different relationships and means, each office in different provinces carries out the mandates in a different manner.

I applied for one job a few months ago that required sealed transcipts another job said that it wasn't necessary as long as I had the original diploma.

"Will I be able to stay and teach in Thailand with a non education degree? That's my main concern at the moment."

In short if you have had 2 waivers already, and your school told you that you cannot get another one, then your only option is to get a position where having a teacher's license isn't a requirement. You can work for language academies or universities. Only p1-m6 positions require a teacher's license or waiver.

I wouldn't work on a tourist visa as the school suggests. If they really wanted you, I am certain they could have pulled some kind of strings. In your teacher's portfolio as long as you have taken some professional development courses over the year and had certifications to prove it, the MOE and DOL usually let you slide. My last position had 3 different courses of 20 hours each that we attented. Though most things weren't that useful, it was enough to satisfy requirements and get people another waiver.

If moving to a different province is a possiblitity, then you might have different results.

If it was as dire as you seem to make it, there would be a vacuum of positions. I know of many people who have surpassed the 3 waivers and are still teaching at elementary and secondary schools.

[Fullstop]

That's nice...well done etc etc... I've been around the block a few times too, including South Korea and way, way back (15 years?) a year in Shanghai. (Ex Chinese wife ...etc etc) Have several months of recent research under my belt. Been a lot of changes for the better since I was there last...blah,blah.blah etc etc...

Now...back to THAILAND, and the possible rules/conditions/requirements changes.

Thanks

If moving to a different province is a possiblitity, then you might have different results.

​The TCT is a national entity. Your details of waivers are on their website for all to see. Changing provinces, getting a new passport etc etc..No good. Please mate...this is all common knowledge.

only option is to get a position where having a teacher's license isn't a requirement.

Like China?

I know of many people who have surpassed the 3 waivers and are still teaching at elementary and secondary schools.

That's wonderful. How about a 4th...or a 5th? 6th? Like said earlier...there is no security or future in Thailand "at the moment"

And again .."Thank God I didn't marry anyone here."

*sigh*

Edited May 3, 2015 by Fullstop

[gerryBScot]

In your eight years teaching here have you done a Thai culture course and have you got any other demonstrable evidence of professional development like the only professional knowledge tests and/or courses? These factors seem to be critical in decisions to grant third and subsequent waivers to non-education graduates. You're unlikely to get them if you have done nothing.

In terms of the overall picture I think it has to be understood in the context of the overall strategy of trying to improve the education system. That can be seen in a number of initiatives: the adoption of the CEFR English standards with targets for Thai students, the recent reshuffle of the TCT, the streamlining of foreign teacher credentials. Personally these measures will do no more than scratch the surface. The problem in the education system here has nothing to do with foreign teachers; I think one of our main purposes is to take the blame, however - "We just can't get the right quality of foreign teachers" sort of thing. (How can you on a salary of 35,000 or in many cases significantly less?)

Whatever, good luck.

[Fullstop]

Looks like I'll have to dig up ancient history afterall.(As mentioned before...there are already threads on this)

-Had 2 waivers with a school in Chanthaburi. I left after 4 years.

-Went to another school in Chonburi. They couldn't ger a 3rd waiver.

- Went to Cambodia and worked for 3 months.

-Old school in Chanthaburi asked me to come back.

- Old school in Chanthaburi could not get a 3rd waiver.

-Had two Non Bs and a tourist visa since.

-School will get me another Non B in a couple of weeks. After that....if still no positive changes...they want me to work on a tourist visa.

-The string of Non Bs and Tourist visas are starting to look a "bit suspicious"

-The Culture course and every other hoop has been jumped through.

-There's no way in Hell I'm spending years and thousands of Baht doing an Ed degree or PGCE. Thailand is simply not worth it.

Enough is enough ... I'm outta here at the end of August.

NOW...This thread! Will there be any changes that will cause me to change my plans?

From the progress of this thread so far ... unlikely.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Fullstop

[zeichen]

"only option is to get a position where having a teacher's license isn't a requirement.

"Like China?"

NO, like Universities or Language academies here in Thailand.

You can teach at Universities or language schools without the teacher's license requirement. That requirement is only for p1-m6 positions. So there are plenty of options if you want to stay in Thailand.

If moving to a different province is a possiblitity, then you might have different results.

"​The TCT is a national entity. Your details of waivers are on their website for all to see. Changing provinces, getting a new passport etc etc..No good. Please mate...this is all common knowledge."

Yes, it may be a national entity but local offices just as Immigration have different personal that allow for different things. Different schools also have different pull as stated before.

"That's wonderful. How about a 4th...or a 5th? 6th? Like said earlier...there is no security or future in Thailand "at the moment":

Yes, I know people who have been teaching with an unrelated degree for many years at the same school. Some had to take, not pass just take, one exam each year to get their waiver.

It is clear that you are an argumentative person and seem to be attacking people here that are answering your questions and trying to help your situation. The problem is that you don't want to listen or don't seem to realize that until there is cohesion in government, TCT, MOE and department of labor, it will always be chaotic.

Fact, no one knows at all what will happen next month let alone a year. Things are up in the air. There are lots of changes and with department heads being removed it is even more chaotic.

If you cannot deal with the uncertainty, then leave. No one cares if you are here or not. There are litterally thousands of newcomers every year to take your place.

[Fullstop]

"only option is to get a position where having a teacher's license isn't a requirement.

"Like China?"

NO, like Universities or Language academies here in Thailand.

You can teach at Universities or language schools without the teacher's license requirement.

Again..this is common knowledge. Unfortunately fulltime positions in language schools and ANY positions in universities are as scarce as hen's teeth. I'm only interested in viable options. At the moment those "other options" are realistically ..."other countries."

Unless as suggested by this thread ... Thailand gets it's act together.

I've "held my breath" long enough.

It is clear that you are an argumentative person and seem to be attacking people here that are answering your questions and trying to help your situation.

The main question I've been concerned with is "When are we going to get back on topic?"

"Attacking people? (plural?) Seems to be just you dragging out red herrings by the bucket load that I've slightly "miffed at"

If you cannot deal with the uncertainty, then leave.

I'm sure I mentioned I was going to China already ...let me go back and check.

What was the topic again? I forget.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Fullstop

[LecheHombre]

NOW...This thread! Will there be any changes that will cause me to change my plans?

Nobody knows. The article in the OP speculates that things may change for the better, but doesn't have anything concrete to back up that optimism (as you already know).

Basically, in your particular situation, it seems like you've got a lot to gain and nothing to lose by going elsewhere (China or wherever else). That being said, if you haven't done it very recently, I would check your waiver status through the kurusapha webpage again. I believe that I'm currently technically on my 4th waiver, but through some combination of luck, mercy, and/or kurusapha incompetence (I suspect mostly that last one) the webpage shows me as being on my 1st. If it was accurately reporting the correct number, I think I'd be looking at other options also -- China, Korea, Oman, back to the US, etc. That's harder with a wife and kid though.

I think in your situation I'd get the hell out while the getting is good. Waiting for this place and all the relevant bureaucratic rats nests to collectively pull their heads out of their posteriors is an extremely thin hope in any kind of short term timescale (a year or two), and honestly feels like not a whole lot better than that even LONG term.

[SlyAnimal]

What was the topic again? I forget.

The topic as I see it, is:

Krusapa is undergoing some changes, what are they? what should they be? and how will this effect the Thai education sector, especially in regards to foreign teachers.

Essentially making most topics regarding Krusapa valid "on topic" discussions.

Your personal situation is a good example of how the system isn't working for foreign teachers. Whereby you've had 2x waivers, so essentially 4+ years experience teaching and so should be a better teacher than you originally were. But can't legally continue to teach, as a 3rd waiver won't be granted.

Thus your legal options are either:

1/ To work outside of Krusapa's jurisdiction (University/Language school)

2/ To work abroad (e.g. China)

Which just means that the Thailand government schooling system will be losing an experienced NES teacher, when there already isn't enough supply to meet the demand for experienced NES teachers. The shortfall will likely end up being met by non-NES or by people working illegally (Or simply not met).

I assume that part of the reason a 3rd waiver won't be granted, despite working at the same school you originally started at, is because you didn't do your culture course or licence exams etc?

But often the process isn't explained well, with most teachers not really sure on how the waiver system works or how to go about signing up for a culture course. And now that the licence exams have been stopped, there isn't a clear path for English speaking non-BEdu teachers to follow in order to obtain a licence.

A better system, might be to include the conditions, in English as well as Thai, on each waiver so that the school + teacher can be made aware of what's required for the teacher to obtain their next waiver or full licence.

As most people who can't get their 3rd waiver, can't because they didn't know what they needed to do when they first started teaching.

Even if they do know what to do, there isn't a viable path towards a full licence for foreign teachers. I've been pinning my hopes on the teaching licence seminars, which are currently only held in Thai, being made available in English as well, but I haven't heard any news regarding this, despite the Thai seminars having been conducted for over a year now.

Alternatively the "Bor Ban Dit" post graduate diplomas could be offered at selected Rajabhat universities in English. As at present, these are only available in Thai, thus the only option is to study via a foreign university, which is cost prohibitive when most teachers only earn 25-35k per month (And live in Thailand, as even with many distance learning courses, students are required to attend the university for exams + some classes).

But the craziest thing will be if they do eventually make these available in English, then there's a requirement that students must be teaching + have a provisional teaching licence. So anyone who has used all of their waivers, wouldn't even be allowed to do the additional study for their full licence lol. That's assuming that foreign teachers don't just pack their bags and head abroad when they can't obtain a licence from Krusapa & corresponding visa/WP.

So while Krusapa sits on their hands, the clock really is ticking for most of us, at no fault of our own.

[attrayant]

I can guarantee EP's have major problems getting (good) math/science teachers, especially at m4-m6 level. My school has been fortunate in that in the high school, we have very little turnover of such teachers. There's a lot more turnover with english language teachers.

I'm getting ready to ask for my 2nd waiver now. Being the math & science teacher at my school, this makes me feel a bit better. I know looking at lesson plans that were left in the computer that previous science teachers who sat at my desk did little more that read Wikipedia articles to the students, and never did kind of science demonstrations.

On the other hand, some schools might not have a problem with this. They could pay such a teacher peanuts and I doubt the students would have the nerve to complain.

[Fullstop]

On the other hand, some schools might not have a problem with this. They could pay such a teacher peanuts and I doubt the students would have the nerve to complain.

They don't need any nerve. E.P students get to fill out evaluation forms on their foreign teachers every year. Gotta keep the students happy in order to keep the fee paying (and donation giving) parents happy.

[attrayant]

But do the students really know what they're missing? How can they complain about something that they don't know they're supposed to have?

[aarontendo]

So in other words they taught like a Thai teacher.

[Fullstop]

But do the students really know what they're missing? How can they complain about something that they don't know they're supposed to have?

The evaluation forms are mostly to determine whether the students "like" the teacher ...or whether he/she is a boring knob head. Content and effectiveness (although covered in the forms) are irrelevant.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Fullstop

[Fullstop]

So in other words they taught like a Thai teacher.

Quite the opposite. If they did...they'd get negative feedback on the evaluation forms. Foreign teachers are supposed to be "fun". This is a long established fact with teaching in Thailand. I'm surprised you're not aware of it.

[attrayant]

Oh, the infamous Sanook Surveys.

[Rhys]

So in other words they taught like a Thai teacher.

Quite the opposite. If they did...they'd get negative feedback on the evaluation forms. Foreign teachers are supposed to be "fun". This is a long established fact with teaching in Thailand. I'm surprised you're not aware of it.

Fun but give homework..

[Fullstop]

^ LOL

[aarontendo]

Well, to be fair I've never done that edutainment stuff. I'm a stick in the mud like that. I do give the occasional video reward and try to ensure that the material is engaging when possible.

I did have a laugh when I saw some eval forms for students around the office. I looked at my supervisor and a few fellas I teach with. Just laughed and said they can hand em out all they want but I'm not going to let kids decide the qualify of my teaching. Luckily it was for summer camp, lucky escape!

[Fullstop]

I wonder what's happening at the TCT lately.

[Rhys]

I wonder what's happening at the TCT lately.

Pay back... for laying back...

[lostinisaan]

Fullstop, were you fluent in verbal Thai prior to learning the Thai alphabet in five weeks?

No. I knew some of the basic greetings and phrases and that's all. I noticed early how off transliterations were and needed to be able to read a Thai dictionary.

I remember learning French at school. One of the first things we had to learn was the pronunciation of the alphabet .. as used by the French.

Just a pretty basic first step in learning a language ... methinks.

I've learned the French alphabet in a German Kindergarten.

[lostinisaan]

I wonder what's happening at the TCT lately.

I just had a Skype Chat with a friend who's working in China. He'd donate one testicle if he could come back to Thailand.

Are you really still sure to go to China, I mean after a few weeks time to think about it? Just curious.

If you're not too old you might find the right ( rich) partner, get married, have some sweet babies and run daddy in law's company...

[attrayant]

I wonder what's happening at the TCT lately.

As of today they're keeping an earlier promise to be a major thorn in my side. Suddenly out of nowhere they're insisting on the official docs, letter, etc. being mailed directly from my school instead of my 35 year old originals. With barely three weeks to go until my extension expires and the school being unable to backfill a subject teacher before the term starts in 2 weeks, this should be interesting.

I might end up having to fly out and come back in on a brand-new non-immigrant B visa while waiting for the dust to settle, then I get to start the paperwork (waiver, labor, extension) all over again.

Oh what fun.

[LecheHombre]

I wonder what's happening at the TCT lately.

As of today they're keeping an earlier promise to be a major thorn in my side. Suddenly out of nowhere they're insisting on the official docs, letter, etc. being mailed directly from my school instead of my 35 year old originals. With barely three weeks to go until my extension expires and the school being unable to backfill a subject teacher before the term starts in 2 weeks, this should be interesting.

I might end up having to fly out and come back in on a brand-new non-immigrant B visa while waiting for the dust to settle, then I get to start the paperwork (waiver, labor, extension) all over again.

Oh what fun.

That sucks, hope you can get through without drastic measures like that. I've got to try again soon also...

You'd think that having their entire board sacked by Mr. Dictator would take some of the starch out of them, but I guess the fail train is still full speed ahead.

[hanuman2543]

I am wondering if the Thai alphabet is partially to blame for poor education.

I read somewhere it takes 5 years for Thai children to learn the Thai alphabet.

Rubbish. Took me 5 weeks to learn to read and write Thai.(as an adult). It's actually easier to master than the English alphabet and spelling rules. i.e...it has rules and they don't "change" ...as not the case in English.

But poor old English is bastardised with foreign input. e.g "resume" ... a French word. Not pronounced with English rules.

Overall..The Thai alphabet and spelling/tone rules are MUCH easier to learn than the English alphabet and it's mangled contradictions.

If you learned to read and write Thai in 5 weeks, you've got a much higher talent for languages (and probably a much higher motivation to learn) than the average person.

On the other hand, I 100% agree that a lot of things about Thai are easier than English. English has such weird spelling because we incorporated words from many many different languages, and all of them have different rules about what sound/phoneme different letter combinations should represent. Thai, on the other hand, has 44 consonants, 15+ vowels, and 4 tones which can very concretely and phonetically designate the proper sound of Thai words. So if one does learn the Thai alphabet properly, it is easy to read a word that you've never seen/heard before correctly / with the correct sound. That doesn't work at all in English unless one gets very very good at making educated guesses as to the root origin of English words, and even then it is spotty.

To answer the grandparent post in the quote, I personally don't believe that the "difficulty" of the Thai alphabet has any negative impact on the education system here. Whatever failings exist are systemic, not a result of the language. BUT, I think that the Thai system actually is worried about that, much more than I am. I've spoken with Thai teachers in government Anuban schools who have been told to NOT start intentionally teaching reading/writing in English until their students are in Pratom, and when I asked about that they specifically said it was because there are concerns that kids will prefer English writing to their native Thai because they think it is easier. Fortunately, as a parent in a bilingual house that thinks that concern is nonsense, I can teach my kids to read English as soon as they are ready for it; and my wife can do likewise with Thai.

The Thai alphabet has 46 consonants, 28 vowels and 5 tone marks. If you are writing how easy it is to learn the Thai alphabet please get your facts right. With your displayed knowledge about it I really doubt that you have learned it and are able to read and write Thai.