Awakening! What are our personal motives?

[rockyysdt]

Awakening.

Timeless and without conditioning, a state free of ego.

Always was and always will be.

What motivates us to practice Buddhism?

Is it due to our fear of expiring?

Are we chasing sublime states?

Do we want to endure timelessly forever?

Are we attempting to run away from our problems?

Does our ego desire something more than a mortal life?

It seems many reasons for practice are rooted in greed (desire) & aversion.

Why do each of us embrace Buddhism?

Do our very personal motives conflict with the teachings, inflate our ego, and act as our barrier?

After all, without motive why do anything?

With a motive, and we have a barrier.

Is this the catch 22?

Is this why we do not progress?

Is it due to our motives?

Edited May 1, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

These are interesting dilemmas you've itemised, Rocky. How can one have a desire to rid oneself of all desire, for example?

I think once again we have a problem with the meaning of ordinary words which are far too general and broad to precisely describe the true situation.

Speaking for myself, I find there are certain Buddhist precepts that make complete sense in relation to my background, conditioning and personal motives. Such precepts include the concept of impermanence; the concept of illusion (whether partial or full) resulting from our individual and group interpretations of sensory stimuli. Such interpretations are not only learned at an individual level, as the baby develops into an adult, but are inherited at a species level.

We can see, hear, taste and smell in accordance with our general limitations as a species. Other species can see, hear, taste or smell what we can't, which makes their sense of reality different to ours, but not wrong.

With the assistance of modern detectors, such as microscopes, and telescopes and other devices which can detect different ranges of wavelengths of the Electromagnetic Spectrum, we can now perhaps claim a greater awareness than any other creature on the planet, although I'm not sure about this. We still employ sniffer dogs at the customs' section at Australian airports.

Nevertheless, when all is said and done (or detected), the results are still interpreted by the human mind, and such interpretation must be subject to the biases and conditioning of the people who do the interpreting.

Does anyone exist who is totally unbiased, totally disinterested, and totally objective? (Apart from me. ) (Joking of course).

A scientist or philosopher living alone in a cave, might be a candidate.

[camerata]

How can one have a desire to rid oneself of all desire, for example?

One doesn't have to, as far as Buddhism is concerned. There is wholesome desire (dhamma-chanda) and unwholesome desire (i.e. sensual desire or kamma-chanda).

2. As an evil quality it has the meaning of 'desire', and is frequently coupled with terms for 'sensuality', 'greed', etc., for instance: kāma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (s. nīvarana); chanda-rāga, 'lustful desire' (s. kāma). It is one of the 4 wrong paths (s. agati).

3. As a good quality it is a righteous will or zeal (dhamma-chanda) and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts (s. padhāna): "The monk rouses his will (chandam janeti)...." If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipāda).

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/chanda.htm

Without wholesome desire, nothing could be accomplished. Just think of the desire involved in metta meditation, for example!

In one of his books, Ajahn Brahm says that an arahant is motivated by compassion (presumably as opposed to self-interest). The Buddha had a wholesome desire to pass on his techniques for 40 years. The problem for us is to understand the nature of ego-less desire.

[VincentRJ]

How can one have a desire to rid oneself of all desire, for example?

Without wholesome desire, nothing could be accomplished. Just think of the desire involved in metta meditation, for example!

In one of his books, Ajahn Brahm says that an arahant is motivated by compassion (presumably as opposed to self-interest). The Buddha had a wholesome desire to pass on his techniques for 40 years. The problem for us is to understand the nature of ego-less desire.

Indeed! According to Freudian psychology, to the extent I've understood it, the Ego stands between the Id, representing our primitive desires (perhaps equivalent to 'kamma-chanda'), and the Superego, representing our moral beliefs (perhaps equivalent to 'dhamma-chanda).

In other words, the Ego has the role of balancing our primitive, instinctual needs, drives and sexual desires, with our culturally conditioned moral and ethical beliefs.

According to this theory of psychology, if we get rid of the ego, which according to Buddhist precepts is an illusion, then we've got rid of the mediator, which doesn't seem like a good thing to do.

[DogNo1]

Aren't humans inherently selfish? Isn't the desire to rid oneself of suffering selfish? Isn't the motivation to be compassionate due to the benefit that it brings us? I like the philosophy of Buddhism but I think that the idea of non self is an illusion. I believe that my Buddhist friends are usually pleasant and benevolent but their "selflessness" disappears in a hurry when they get angry.

[rockyysdt]

Aren't humans inherently selfish? Isn't the desire to rid oneself of suffering selfish? Isn't the motivation to be compassionate due to the benefit that it brings us? I like the philosophy of Buddhism but I think that the idea of non self is an illusion. I believe that my Buddhist friends are usually pleasant and benevolent but their "selflessness" disappears in a hurry when they get angry.

Does this mean that you base your belief on the inability of individuals to behave perfectly?

Edited May 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[Water Buffalo]

Motives will hinder us.

The practice is the doing (in the moment) without focusing on returns.

Consider it as doing a selfless deed for someone without expecting a return.

Though, deep down i think we do all have motives, nut best to try not focus on it.

I suppose my motive is: I am tired of suffering.

[rockyysdt]

There is wholesome desire (dhamma-chanda) and unwholesome desire (i.e. sensual desire or kamma-chanda).

2. As an evil quality it has the meaning of 'desire', and is frequently coupled with terms for 'sensuality', 'greed', etc., for instance: kāma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (s. nīvarana); chanda-rāga, 'lustful desire' (s. kāma). It is one of the 4 wrong paths (s. agati).

3. As a good quality it is a righteous will or zeal (dhamma-chanda) and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts (s. padhāna): "The monk rouses his will (chandam janeti)...." If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipāda).

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/chanda.htm

Without wholesome desire, nothing could be accomplished. Just think of the desire involved in metta meditation, for example!

In one of his books, Ajahn Brahm says that an arahant is motivated by compassion (presumably as opposed to self-interest). The Buddha had a wholesome desire to pass on his techniques for 40 years. The problem for us is to understand the nature of ego-less desire.

Quite a significant problem at that Camerata.

My thoughts tell me that wholesome desire (dhamma-chanda), driven by metta, karuna, mudita, & upekka, only comes about after many years of practice.

In the meantime, or initially, what drives us to Buddhism.

The compassion I see around me appears to be driven by ego, rather than true compassion.

For example:

• One lady steeped in low self esteem, is generous and giving, in order to acquire acceptance. She craves for acceptance daily.
• Another gives to charities in order to obtain a tax deduction.
• Others offer their services to promote their businesses.
• Still others may be looking to be thought of as fine upstanding citizens.
• Fellow Buddhists, under the gaze of their sangha, may need to prop up their projected image.

• Yet others simply fear the alternative, extinction upon death.

Dig a little and you will find ego motivating our attraction to Buddhism.

Edited May 3, 2015 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Sure, but we have to start somewhere. I don't see any problem in starting out with selfish desires. If we had no selfish desire we wouldn't need to practise at all. For a Buddhist, the mind is a work in progress. It starts out riddled with defilements and hopefully - due to our efforts - ends up with none. There may be less merit attached to giving for "selfish" reasons, but there is some. This is well illustrated in the Buddha's teaching on dana:

"Sariputta, there is the case where a person gives a gift seeking his own profit, with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, 'Giving is good.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'Giving is good,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Hours. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Contented devas. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who delight in creation. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who have power over the creations of others. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

...

— but with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahma's Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world.

"This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html

[rockyysdt]

Motives will hinder us.

The practice is the doing (in the moment) without focusing on returns.

Consider it as doing a selfless deed for someone without expecting a return.

Though, deep down i think we do all have motives, nut best to try not focus on it.

I suppose my motive is: I am tired of suffering.

I suspect that it maybe important to be aware of them.

To be incorporated within awareness practice of thoughts and feelings.

[SOTIRIOS]

....are you expecting a simple answer......???

[quandow]

First there is a mountain.

Then there is a mountain.

Then there is.

[quandow]

If a jazz band plays in the middle of a forest and there is no one there to hear them, do they still suck?

A great preponderance!

I don't mean to make light of your post, OP. What you ask has been perplexing humankind since they became aware of "self." I wish you well on your journey. It looks like a real big door just opened up for you!

Edited May 4, 2015 by quandow

[razer]

I would guess 99% of the people on earth embrace their religion simply because they were born into it ... and no other reason.

[VincentRJ]

If a jazz band plays in the middle of a forest and there is no one there to hear them, do they still suck?

A great preponderance!

That's no great preponderance at all. If there's no-one there to hear them, such a band cannot possibly suck or exhibit any other subjective characteristic of sound.

However, the absurdity of the situation is the concept that a band of deaf musicians would attempt to play music in the middle of a forest.

If they are not deaf, then there must be someone there to hear them. Each musician can hear himself play, as well as hear what the others in the band are playing, and each musician is capable of thinking what he and/or any of the others is playing, sucks or needs improvement, or is brilliant, as the case may be.

[1FinickyOne]

I am not a Buddhist but if you do good deeds, even selfless ones that require no recognition, there is still going to be an inherent ego satisfaction of feeling good for having done it… and I don't see anything wrong with that, no matter what religion you are - the good deed is more important than the motive… and I think if people recognized this as a path to feeling better, the world might be a better place...

[rockyysdt]

I am not a Buddhist but if you do good deeds, even selfless ones that require no recognition, there is still going to be an inherent ego satisfaction of feeling good for having done it… and I don't see anything wrong with that, no matter what religion you are - the good deed is more important than the motive… and I think if people recognized this as a path to feeling better, the world might be a better place...

A very interesting one K.

In Buddhist terms one needs to be wary of ego.

The difference can be subtle and end up taking you down the wrong path.

On a non Buddhist level, my question is, "do all who give end up feeling better"?

An example I have is the lady who has a strong low self esteem issue.

She is indirectly buying acceptance by being overly friendly and generous.

She gives profusely.

What I noticed was that she ends with considerable suffering.

The giving was one way as she often doesn't get the response she was subconsciously eliciting (acceptance & gratitude on a gushing level).

The result, feeling better was very short lived and replaced with suffering.

The critical thing associated with this example was ego.

This is but one case I have observed.

My awareness is limited.

Naturally you and I understand that generosity should be performed without expectation, but my OP was about "motive" & "ego".

Edited May 4, 2015 by rockyysdt

[humqdpf]

You might be motivated to practice Buddhism simply because you are convinced that we are all condemned to reincarnation and you would like at least to take a few steps in the direction of getting off the repetitive birth-suffering-death treadmill.

Although I have a lot of time for certain forms of Buddhism, there is a paradox at the heart of Buddhism, which is that although Buddhism aims at the negation of the ego (in the form of desires etc), it requires a supreme effort of the ego to even take a few steps in the direction of achieving enlightenment.

[nithisa78]

This was a good read, nice way to start the day. Would have liked to hear something from ubonjoe. He always comes across pretty calm and sober. Clear thinker.

It is all very subjective. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Practice mindfulness. Love one another, that is the river of life. Our eternal source.

It is no sin to enjoy our lives. Help each other. No farangs, no Thais, the one race, the Human Race. Peace, peace, peace.

A mind which is a light to itself needs no experience - JKOnline Daily Quotes

A mind which is a light to itself needs no experience

What an extraordinary thing meditation is. If there is any kind of compulsion, effort to make thought conform, imitate, then it becomes a wearisome burden. The silence which is desired ceases to be illuminating. If it is the pursuit of visions and experiences, then it leads to illusions and self-hypnosis. Only in the flowering of thought and so ending thought does meditation have significance. Thought can only flower in freedom, not in ever-widening patterns of knowledge. Knowledge may give newer experiences of greater sensation but a mind that is seeking experiences of any kind is immature. Maturity is the freedom from all experience; it is no longer under any influence to be or not to be.Maturity in meditation is the freeing of the mind from knowledge, for knowledge shapes and controls all experience. A mind which is a light to itself needs no experience. Immaturity is the craving for greater and wider experience. Meditation is the wandering through the world of knowledge and being free of it to enter into the unknown. - Krishnamurti, Krishnamurti Notebook,213

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Edited May 4, 2015 by nithisa78

[elviajero]

You cannot practice Buddhism or anything else without motive.

What motivates me not to follow Buddhism is because it's a complete waste of life.

[Brucenkhamen]

I think the answer is in the question. If you had have used the word enlightenment then it wouldn't have been as obvious however who wouldn't want Awakening?

The alternative to Awakening is being asleep, or sleep walking through life.

Of course somebody isn't going to want Awakening unless they first have sense that they are sleepwalking through life and then have a sense that it's possible to awaken.

[DogNo1]

All of these beliefs seem paradoxical to me. I have no problem with individuals wanting to feel good from giving and doing good deeds but that is not selfless. And no, I don't base any kind of belief on individuals' inability to be perfect but it does reveal that the selfless facade can disappear in an instant. Apparently the condition of selflessness is very difficut to maintain. And awakening and not sleepwalking through life is, of course, not uniquely a Buddhist idea. When I studied the Greek philosophers, I learned that Plato had said "The unexamined life is not worth living." He was obviously advocating personal awakening and mindfulness. Still other Greek philosophers have talked about the virtue of altruism. I wonder if true altruism is attainable. It would imply that you always gave whatever you had randomly, and despite Christ's admonition, I don't see that happening. I do have Buddhist friends who are inspiringly kind to many different classes of people. Kind as they are, they do have motives behind their kindness and giving. No criticism impled though.

[nithisa78]

You cannot practice Buddhism or anything else without motive.

What motivates me not to follow Buddhism is because it's a complete waste of life.

its science of the mind. so in order to understand and live it, one must have a mind.

then; Practice mindfulness. Follow your heart.

[VincentRJ]

Perhaps for some people it is a lack of motives in general which leads them to Buddhism.

That is, they have no strong desire to become a successful business man, or a famous footballer, or a vetinary scientist, and so on.

Perhaps after considering the options that have occurred to them, or which have been presented to them, they decide to take the path, or lead the lifestyle of a Buddhist monk, because pursuing the ultimate goal of a lasting peace of mind, inner joy, and a deep, general understanding or awareness of the conditions of life, seems more worthwhile than the joys and despair, successes and failures, and constant worries associated with normal life in Samsara.

[rockyysdt]

Perhaps for some people it is a lack of motives in general which leads them to Buddhism.

That is, they have no strong desire to become a successful business man, or a famous footballer, or a vetinary scientist, and so on.

Perhaps after considering the options that have occurred to them, or which have been presented to them, they decide to take the path, or lead the lifestyle of a Buddhist monk, because pursuing the ultimate goal of a lasting peace of mind, inner joy, and a deep, general understanding or awareness of the conditions of life, seems more worthwhile than the joys and despair, successes and failures, and constant worries associated with normal life in Samsara.

Could motives also vary depending on ones age?

For example a 20 year old's motives might differ to a 70 year old.

[VincentRJ]

Perhaps for some people it is a lack of motives in general which leads them to Buddhism.

That is, they have no strong desire to become a successful business man, or a famous footballer, or a vetinary scientist, and so on.

Perhaps after considering the options that have occurred to them, or which have been presented to them, they decide to take the path, or lead the lifestyle of a Buddhist monk, because pursuing the ultimate goal of a lasting peace of mind, inner joy, and a deep, general understanding or awareness of the conditions of life, seems more worthwhile than the joys and despair, successes and failures, and constant worries associated with normal life in Samsara.

Could motives also vary depending on ones age?

For example a 20 year old's motives might differ to a 70 year old.

Quite likely, Rocky. I imagine that motives will differ among different individuals whatever their age. A 70-year-old is a different person to what he was as a 20-year-old. Most cells in his body have reproduced several times, and sometimes with errors. Even brain cells undergo a degree of neurogenesis, although how much is still a matter of ongoing research.

Even if it's the case that not all brain cells, or neurons, will reproduce during a lifetime, new connections between neurons, ie. synapses, are continually being created as we learn, or as the body/brain adjusts to a new set of circumstances.

Also, I imagine a 20-year-old, in general, would be far more reluctant than a 70-year-old to deprive himself of all the potential, exciting, thrills and adventures to be experienced in life, including those of a sexual nature.

[AYJAYDEE]

motive is not desire unless clung to.