General advice and experiences purchasing condos

[Payanak212]

Hello forum members, I would like to hear the experiences and recommendations from people who have bought condos here. What the lessons learnt were and what you would do differently if you were to purchase again.

I am living and working in Thailand and plan to be here for the foreseeable future. I have all the correct paperwork and get paid a decent salary into a Thai bank account. Rather than paying 20-30k a month rent for somewhere decent I am considering purchasing a condo that I can live in if I remain here or rent out if I move on somewhere. I’m not married and would want a mortgage or loan in my own name.

Some points that I would be particularly interested in hearing in addition to your general advice would be;

- developers that produce quality buildings (relatively for here)

- mortgages available (I heard UOB recently offer much better mortgages to expats?)

- locations ( I plan to move near the BTS and possible were the MRT will be in 15 years)

- Unforeseen consequences/scams etc

- Dual pricing of condos to expats (heard stories of this)

- fire safety/lift maintenance/guarantee of workmanship

- if I am working here and saving money here, do i need to transfer my savings out of the country and back in again for the deposit?

Thanks

Edited May 7, 2015 by Payanak212

[newnative]

Here's my advice, having bought condos both here and in the USA. With everything I say, I know there are always exceptions--as I am sure other posters will point out. I live in Pattaya so some of my comments will just apply to Pattaya.

1. Location, location, location. The number 1 rule in real estate--and for good reason. Take your time, study areas. When you find an area you like, look for the best property in that area in your budget. For Bangkok, walking distance to subway/skytrain is highly desirable, I think. I am considering buying a condo in BKK and would want one near the metro. For Pattaya, ocean view and/or close distance to ocean will always be more desirable with condos. Pattaya is, after all, a beach community. Lots of development going on in Pattaya but many new condos being built are not close to the beach and lack ocean views.

2. With condos, buy from a name brand developer with a good track record. Avoid mom and pop operations where the developer will remain in control of the property through unsold units or units that he owns. Big public companies listed on the Thai stock exchange are high in my book. I like Sansiri, Lumpini, Supalai, SC Asset, Q House, and Raimon Land among others.

3. Buy in foreign name only. Some realtors will say it doesn't matter but I know lots of buyers will only look at condos in foreign name. If you are buying in Bangkok, buying in foreign name shouldn't be a problem.

4. I would avoid buying a condo in a development with fewer than 250 units. The fewer the units, the fewer the owners to shoulder the condo maintenance expenses and condo employee salaries. This advice comes from a bad personal experience of buying a condo with around 100 units that had very high maintenance/employee costs. If you prefer a small, boutique building, you might have a better outcome than I did.

5. If possible, try to get information on the condo development's financials and the percentage of owners delinquent on their condo fees. Ask about its policy regarding delinquent owners. How much money does the condo have in reserve and is it operating in the red or black every year? What's the condo monthly maintenance fee? Sometimes it's a flat yearly fee and sometimes it is based on the condo's square meters--for example 45 baht a square meter per month.

6. If you are buying a resale condo, try to talk to some of the other owners and get their take on things.

7. Study the floorplan of the condo you are interested in and try to imagine where you will be fitting the furniture you will want. Is there enough space for a dining table and, if so, how big? What size bed will fit? Any space/hookup for a washing machine? When looking at decorated model condos, look beyond the shock and awe of the snazzy design and, instead, look carefully at the amount of storage space, number of drawers/cabinets, bathroom vanity or lack of, the kitchen layout, lighting, balcony size, quality of built-ins, etc.

8. Many, many posters will tell you to rent rather than buy and, for some, renting can be a better option. I, myself, love to own my condo and know it is mine and love to be able to decorate it and make any changes I want. I have rented in the past but always hated it--living in someone else's place and always having to be careful not to damage anything. But, to each his own. Good luck!

[elgordo38]

Read the article on the Aces 1 condo. That should deter you. When you move on you do not leave any headaches behind. You should be able to rent a nice place for half of the 20 to 30 baht you mention. If your not happy or have noisy neighbors or water leaks or whatever just pack your bags and leave no headaches.

[bazza40]

Don't do it. There's a lot of new condos constructed from toad shit and kraft paper. Unless you're an experienced builder, no way you can recognise sub-standard construction. I've seen one 5 - storey apartment building in Chiang Mai whose foundation consists of 1 metre of concrete - no pilings.

Older condos, while they may be more solidly constructed, can have a problem with deteriorating infrastructure. Because the pooled funds are usually spent on staff parties, it means owners have to cough up levies. Lifts and pools are particularly expensive.

With the 51% Thai ownership rule for condos, the price you get depends on where you are in the selling queue. The condo where I rent has an average price of 1.6 million baht for a studio selling to a falang. If forced to sell to a Thai to conform with ownership rules, it's about 800,000 baht.

There's been plenty of argument on ThaiVisa about renting vs. buying. Personally, I prefer renting because the risk factors pale into insignificance compared to the risks associated with buying in Thailand. A bit like putting your hand in a bagful of cobras, and hoping you won't get bitten.

[ggt]

Several things for your consideration...

Do not believe anything you are told...do your homework and checkout all details of the condo and pending deal...

Double check all figures presented to you for your signature...pencil whipping a farang on paper is a national problem...

Take pictures of all furniture and appliances...they have known to be different when you move in...from what you where shown...

Keep all your receipts...especially those that have to do with condo administration and upkeep...common to receive the same bill twice...

The higher the floor...the better the view...and also the costs...usually...

Ask about your neighbors on either side...and especially the neighbor who lives above you...some people do not sleep good and seem to need to reposition their furniture every evening...

Good Luck...

[user82374298374]

Buying anything in Thailand is stupid. Rent, rent, rent!

[ripley]

I'm still on the fence on the "Rent vs Buy" issue. As it happens, I bought years ago when I found a beautiful place with a great location at a price far more reasonable than any other I'd seen. I, too, weighed up the cost of renting with the cost of owning. Seemed good, and it was - up to a point. Now I'm considering selling my home and renting - just to free myself from the hassles. I love that someone has started a Topic on TVF on the subject of buying vs selling.

I can tell you that I wish I'd been better educated in Thai Condo Law and the rights of owners.Although I was given a copy of the Condo's Regulations, it was written in pretty hilarious "Tinglish" so I didn't "get" the point about the importance of a Condo's Regulations. I wish I'd known the meaning of "Juristic Person" and "Juristic Person Manager", about AGMs, Committees, etc. I didn't have a clue 'way back then. Guess I just thought it all happened by magic.

Owning a Condo is great on the surface of things. But it takes just a teaspoon of poor judgement, a tablespoon of Graft and a heaping helping of Owner indifference (all prevalent n every Condo) to destroy your peace of mind and your investment. The great deal you bought into can be brought into such chaos and disrepair you won't recognize it in a few years.

So, if you're thinking of buying, at least take time to read the Regulations and Thai Condo Law. Make sure that the budget is posted every month, that the Annual General Meetings are held annually on the premises. Talk to some of the Owners regarding the workings of the Administration and the actual conditions in the bldg. Check with the Land Office to see whether they have any issues with the bldg. These are just a few things essential to investigate before you take the plunge.

[dotpoom]

I have bought a few properties (houses and condos) in Pattaya/Jomtien. If you are buying with the intention of maybe one day letting it out, buy small, it's easier to rent out. Better to buy two smaller ones that one large one. The higher the rent the more difficult to get a customer. That's my "tuppence" worth anyway.

[KittenKong]

Keep all your receipts...especially those that have to do with condo administration and upkeep...common to receive the same bill twice...

Yes, always keep all receipts and always double-check everything.

The best description of the accounting practices in many condo buildings is "crass incompetence". That's when they aren't actually being fraudulent.

[KittenKong]

I can tell you that I wish I'd been better educated in Thai Condo Law and the rights of owners.Although I was given a copy of the Condo's Regulations, it was written in pretty hilarious "Tinglish" so I didn't "get" the point about the importance of a Condo's Regulations. I wish I'd known the meaning of "Juristic Person" and "Juristic Person Manager", about AGMs, Committees, etc. I didn't have a clue 'way back then. Guess I just thought it all happened by magic.

Owning a Condo is great on the surface of things. But it takes just a teaspoon of poor judgement, a tablespoon of Graft and a heaping helping of Owner indifference (all prevalent n every Condo) to destroy your peace of mind and your investment. The great deal you bought into can be brought into such chaos and disrepair you won't recognize it in a few years.

So, if you're thinking of buying, at least take time to read the Regulations and Thai Condo Law. Make sure that the budget is posted every month, that the Annual General Meetings are held annually on the premises. Talk to some of the Owners regarding the workings of the Administration and the actual conditions in the bldg. Check with the Land Office to see whether they have any issues with the bldg. These are just a few things essential to investigate before you take the plunge.

Most co-owners in my building have little or no idea of how it is being managed, beyond the visible signs like a clean pool etc. Barely a quarter of them attend the AGMs and no one expresses much interest in the budget and accounts, apart from complaining about the yearly requests for more money to run the building. If more people were interested in the accounts then these would contain far fewer errors, and the management would devote a lot more effort to reducing costs and doing their job properly rather than just trying to do as little work as possible.

As you say, few co-owners have much idea what a JPM is or the power he holds, and those who do know have usually served on a committee.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I didn't see in Thailand where you live but I have lived in 3 cities and 6 places, with Pattaya and Udon Thani being 2 places and a Farm and Village where I live now, and co-own.

I know property investment is usually wise in your home country, especially if you are quite young, but it doesn't really work that way in Thailand. I personally know a few Expats who after living in the same place +10 years or longer and felt happy just to get back the money they invested. I know much more who got stuck in their place they wanted to move from because they could not sell there properties.

Originally I was like you, and wanted to buy my own Condo. But now that I look back I am very glad I rented, at first. The first Condo I moved in was new, and well maintained with friendly and helpful staff, although at 30K Baht a month was quite expensive then. I had an excellent balcony with an open empty field in front of me and a beautiful view of Pattaya City.

All was okay the first few month and until squatters moved into the empty field. Then came the constant hammering of metal roofs and walls by day, and all night parties and blaring TV's by night. This finally forced me to move out of Pattaya and to a quieter place I hoped for in Jomtien. Pattaya was a very noisy place, from my first experience in hotels their, and now my rented Condo

My new place was older, but had a face lift and looked okay. It was also a lot cheaper but most importantly very quiet, as it was a short hop off the main roads. I even checked the place at night, and on weekends, before I moved in, with only a fee small shops near-by and a Beauty Salon. My balcony faced a Condo Swimming Pool, and the inside square.

All was quiet until the Beauty Salon went out of business and closed down. It was quickly replaced by someone who wanted to open a bar. They must have had the loudest base I have ever heard as my windows vibrated at night from it, and I was on the opposite side. The place also began to get run down and cleaning was at a minimum. The pool was more green from leaves then actual water, as they seldom cleaned the pool anymore. I was told that many of the tenants in the building (Thais) refused to pay their maintenance fees. Which is something you need to know about and may face yourself.

After another try or two someplace else I moved out completely to a city in N.E. Thailand called Udon Thani. I chose a Secure Compound on the edge of the city. The Compound was walled and gated with security on guard 24/7. They used to drive by my place every hour or so to check things out. But this place soon changed once again, when all the units were sold.

The security truck stopped coming and the guard at the gate was seldom there at night, with the gate left wide open. If he was his feet were up and he was sleeping, with again the gate left wide open. Just after I moved in the Community Swimming Pool developed a leak at the bottom so it was drained and closed down. For 2 years I heard, "Will fix soon", but they never did.

Perhaps what got me the most as everyone living there had at least one dog or two. Who they (Thai) let run freely, to drag your garbage down the road. It seemed all of them barked all night long as well. I found out later the reason why security had slipped, and the maintenance stopped, was again tenants failing to pay their maintenance fees.

Again it was back to Jomtien. I got a good deal on a Penthouse Suite from a friend of a friend in a new Hotel. With 2 large rooms, 2 bathrooms and a huge wrap around balcony with city views from 2 sides. Thinking it is a respectable Hotel then it must be quiet there, especially at night. And so it was for a month, and until someone opened a Thai Sing-a-Long Bar with the loudest speakers they could find, and which ran from dark until 4 am every day. Ever hear a Drunk Thai Sing? I could not sit out there at night without ear plugs in my ears, and even then I felt uncomfortable.

The Main Point I am trying to make from all this is that this Silk Purse you see and buy today, will quickly change into a Pig's Ear in a few years, and you will be stuck with it if you own it. Renting gave me the option to move out. But when you own it is not that easy. As someone mentioned the construction of these building is sub-pare. I think they build then to look nice, but only last 10 years or so. I never found one that had even a inch of insulation in it. Also with the 49%/51% Farang to Thai Ownership, you are going to find it difficult at times to live with them. But then perhaps not in the upper scales Condo's?

I stand to be corrected here but I understand that for you to get a Mortgage from a Thai Bank is next to impossible. Most that I know of is married to a Thai Woman who has a decent income. I realize you work here and have a Work Permit, but when it comes to this I don't think it matters much. If you skip town there isn't much they can do to you except try to recover there money from the property after a long and drawn out affair. So if you ever did get a mortgage I would think you would have to put at least 50% down.

[ripley]

To Goldbuggy: Man! You've had the full experience in spades!!

This Topic has posts that have been very interesting and useful to me.I know I'll continue to check in for further views on the subject.

Thus far the most sensible advice I've heard in all my research is "If you're interested in buying into a condo (or any kind of residential community), rent first - for at least a year. If you are adequately informed, and keep your eyes and ears open, very soon the plusses and minusses will become apparent. It's not foolproof, nor is it practical when you're in a hurry to scoop up a "great deal" on a place, but I think it's probably the safest course available.

[WorkingTourist]

Here's my advice, having bought condos both here and in the USA. […]

4. I would avoid buying a condo in a development with fewer than 250 units. The fewer the units, the fewer the owners to shoulder the condo maintenance expenses and condo employee salaries. This advice comes from a bad personal experience of buying a condo with around 100 units that had very high maintenance/employee costs. If you prefer a small, boutique building, you might have a better outcome than I did.

Probably the affluence of your fellow residents also play an important role. Buy/rent something cheap, and you’re more likely to have issues with your neighbours, both with respect to (missing) CAM fees and regarding the type of people who live there and their activities.

I find it interesting that when the “rent instead of buying” people chime in, they often mention how cheap you can rent something (instead of buying), this thread is no exception, someone says you can rent something nice for 10-15K baht/month, and we’re talking about Bangkok, and near the BTS (as per the OP) — I looked at rental properties in Bangkok 3 years ago and didn’t see anything I would call “nice” for 10-15K/month.

I have a theory that the people who tout renting as the better option are people who base their opinion on having lived in cheap buildings, which are likely more prone to issues.

Of course a higher price tag is no guarantee of a quiet neighbourhood, although if you buy in say the Ratchadamri area, which does come with a higher price tag (AFAIK), then you should have a good guarantee of undisturbed nights.

8. Many, many posters will tell you to rent rather than buy and, for some, renting can be a better option. I, myself, love to own my condo and know it is mine and love to be able to decorate it and make any changes I want. I have rented in the past but always hated it--living in someone else's place and always having to be careful not to damage anything. But, to each his own. Good luck!

Totally in agreement!

I would agree with the poster who suggested renting in the building of your choice first, though I personally decided to buy off-plan (in Chiang Mai) after having studied the market for a longer period and done my due diligence — basically this was the only way to secure a great condo (of which I think there are too few in CM), and it might have allowed for a better discount, as anyone reselling a condo wants to get what they paid and more.

[swissie]

Reading above comments sent shivers down my spine. Lost appetite, also the appetite to buy anything in Thailand that can't be moved from point A to point B within 24 hours.

Last night, I had an angel visiting me in my dream. Strangely, he looked like Warren Buffet and he spoke to me in no uncertain terms: " You silly twit, have you been walking around in Thailand without wearing a sun-hat for too long? = Buy a condo in your home-country and rent it out. With this rental income, you will rent a big house in Thailand. Buying something in Thailand is like sitting down at a poker-table." That's what he said.

Knowing for a fact, that Warren Buffet has been far more successful than I when it comes to financial matters, I can not possibly ignore this advice and have therefore decided not to sit down at the poker-table. You ?

Cheers.

[newnative]

I've been meaning to respond to Swissie's post regarding his advice passed along from Warren Buffet's angel regarding renting vs. buying a condo. Certainly, if you make all your decisions strictly by how the numbers crunch, renting a condo in Thailand might be the better decision over buying. Although, factors like the length of time you will be renting could come into consideration and might make buying a viable option. My purpose in writing is more to say that I hope you don't make all your decisions based strictly on the numbers. It might be that the rental numbers crunch better but are you going to be happy living in someone else's condo? Especially if it is long-term? I guess there are renters and owners and I am definitely in the owner's camp. I like being able to paint or wallpaper the walls, hang all my own artwork, remodel the kitchen if I want to, re-do the bathroom if I get the urge, change the lighting, and, most of all, have all my own furniture that I've picked and reflects my taste. Right now I am renting while I wait for my new condo to be finished. I feel like I am a visitor living here--or like a guest in someone's else's home. I bought plastic glasses and dishes and pray I don't break one of the floor tiles--of which there seem to be no spares. The sofa is uncomfortable and not very attractive but its made of cloth and was probably very expensive so I am praying I don't spill something on it. I rarely sit on it so, hopefully, will be ok. There's not a single picture on the walls to look at--just lots of mirrors and different patterns of wallpaper. The kitchen has a tiny almost useless dormitory style refrigerator and no cooktop. There are 2 bathrooms but not a single drawer or cabinet between them so I have all my toiletries in a shopping bag on the floor. The bed doesn't have a bed table so I am using a cardboard box. But, it's fine--I know I'll be moving soon and I am having fun planning the new condo. My point is that if you are happy being a renter, that's good. But, if you are more of an owner, then follow your heart--especially if you will be living in Thailand year-round or for the majority of each year. Life is short--the older I get the more I know that--and you can't take it with you. So, I say enjoy while you can and the numbers be damned. Just do your homework before you buy and if you have any doubts, rent in the complex first. I've never lost money on any of the condos that I've bought and sold both here and in America so buying isn't always bad financially, either.