UK Conservative election win - are more visa changes likely?

[7by7]

What will happen if the English requirement for FLR is raised to B1 and an applicant hasn't reached that standard in time?

A similar question arose with the financial requirement. What happens if due to a change in circumstances, sickness or redundancy for example, a couple could not meet the financial requirement for FLR?

It's over 30 months since the financial requirement came into force, so we may soon be seeing cases of FLR refused for failing to meet it starting to arise.

In both situations, the real financial one and the possible language one, as far as I can ascertain, the foreign partner would be refused FLR and so have to leave the UK.

I am not saying this is right or attempting to justify it in any way; so please don't shoot the messenger.

My opinion of the dogs breakfast financial requirement is well known.

I am also on record as being generally in favour of the very basic A1 requirement for the initial visa and the harder KoLL requirement for ILR, after all the immigrant partner has five years to study for and reach that level, but not for FLR.

Edited May 14, 2015 by 7by7

[7by7]

One point on EU immigration.

The freedom of movement directive applies not only to European Union states, but European Economic Area ones as well. EEA members are as bound by it as EU members are.

All EU members are also members of the EEA (except Croatia, whose EEA membership is awaiting ratification), but not all EEA members are also members of the EU.

So if the UK were to leave the EU it would still be bound by the directive, unless it also left the EEA.

Leaving the EU would cause enough problems; leaving the EEA as well could be disastrous for the UK's trade with Europe; by far our biggest export market.

[bobrussell]

My sister-in-law sailed through her B1. Found it very straight forward. I admit she is bright but did not receive the best education.

I don't think there is much excuse (other than exam nerves) for anyone being unable to cope with a B1 level of English after several years in the UK. I have concerns for people moving to the UK and living in an environment where English is hardly spoken at all. A1 and B1 exams ensure people make some effort so should be encouraged IMO.

We know many Thai's and not one of them would have much problem passing the test especially as there is usually a good deal of coaching during the short pre-exam preparation courses that are available.

I did suggest that in emergency my sister-in-law let the examiner know she was nervous and if given a glass of red wine or two, would not stop talking at all! Not sure if she needed to use the line.

LitUK is much, much tougher but only required for ILR and naturalisation.

[durhamboy]

It seems that there are a number of you that supports B1 for FLR but have not really thought through the ramifications of it. As 7by7 says (and it's rare that we agree!) the only logical outcome for someone who doesn't pass B1 is deportation. I find that unpalatable.

Oh yes, sorry but there is one person who sees the problem. johnch1213 who says "............yes I would have KNOW problem with deporting them." (my caps)

He wants to deport people for having a standard of English that is too low when he himself cannot write the most basic word in the English language! Unbelievable!

[fbf]

It seems that there are a number of you that supports B1 for FLR but have not really thought through the ramifications of it. As 7by7 says (and it's rare that we agree!) the only logical outcome for someone who doesn't pass B1 is deportation. I find that unpalatable.

Understandably so, however in the wider context of immigration, language ability is not the only factor that could curtail the process prematurely or appear to be fundamentally unfair. A lack of funds at each stage could also cause problems (even leaving the immigrant in a bind where they can't afford to stay and can't afford to fly home).

Looking at border/immigration controls inevitably opens up some far reaching questions about fairness. When is someone entitled to enter a country and stay there, or when is it a purely elective choice that the country is entitled to deny? In the case of asylum seekers some might say there is a moral obligation, although even that might be tempered by the country's ability to cope. In the case of marriage, what if we can agree the couple are entitled to live together, but the two countries both pull up the drawbridge? In the case of same sex marriage, that might not even be recognised in both countries.

All perfectly valid debate of course, but I prefer to focus on what I'll call "practical fairness". Do the rules apply to everyone equally? Are the tests academically as well designed as possible? Are they conducted fairly and protected from corruption, without the security features being overly draconian? Is the level of English required set based on an objective assessment of what's needed to integrate effectively, contribute to society and minimise translation costs? Does the cost of the test reflect the cost of providing it, while also bearing in mind any wider economic benefits... and so on.

If I were to find myself writing a letter to my MP, or even trying to influence the views of friends and acquaintances with respect to immigration, then perhaps the latter questions would gain more traction.

For now, I'm most interested in overcoming the obstacles of immigration, and finding out about any changes as early as possible.

Edited May 15, 2015 by fbf

[bobrussell]

It seems that there are a number of you that supports B1 for FLR but have not really thought through the ramifications of it. As 7by7 says (and it's rare that we agree!) the only logical outcome for someone who doesn't pass B1 is deportation. I find that unpalatable.

Oh yes, sorry but there is one person who sees the problem. johnch1213 who says "............yes I would have KNOW problem with deporting them." (my caps)

He wants to deport people for having a standard of English that is too low when he himself cannot write the most basic word in the English language! Unbelievable!

Deportation is not necessarily the case. Under human rights legislation the children (if British) have their own set of rights and the sensible would believe that includes the right to life with a mother! The less sensible might say no and leave it to the courts to sort out!

We are still waiting to see what happens at FLR should the financial requirement not be met! My suspicion is there may be difficulties ahead with that one.

Although I cannot see too much point in introducing B1 at FLR (other than an attempt to reduce the ghetto mentality of some cultures) I stand by my belief that it really is not difficult to achieve for anybody living in an English/Bilingual environment.

If you can have a quick chat about what happened at work today, make plans for tomorrow, talk about the weather and decide where and when the next holiday is, then this is B1 level.

[durhamboy]

fbf and Bob, I think I agree with most, if not all, of what you say. There may well be problems for families to satisfy the financial requirements for FLR in future.

Actually I agree that most people should be able to pass B1 after being here for more than 2 years. But I think there will be a very small minority that will not pass it. Let's hope HR kicks in at that stage although I seem to recall that I read somewhere that the Tories would deport first and ask questions later!

[moobie]

George Osborne has announced a "new" Budget will be announced on 8th July - it may be worthwhile observing what happens in it to see if the costs of visas, etc will rise?

[Jay Sata]

To put things in to context I would suggest that if foreigners having served prison time for serious offences in the UK are not being deported then it is highly unlikely an innocent foreign partner failing a language test will be chucked out.

[wooloomooloo]

Interesting concept, Jay. Ultimately, though, I just can't see the Home Office shrugging their shoulders and giving a bye to an unsuccessful applicant.

Granted, there could be grounds for appeal under HR but this is yet to be tested. A successful appeal would certainly set a precedent, but I'm not convinced a plaintiff would get very far.

It would be far easier to pass B1 than to challenge the Government.

[7by7]

George Osborne has announced a "new" Budget will be announced on 8th July - it may be worthwhile observing what happens in it to see if the costs of visas, etc will rise?

Fees for visas, leave to remain etc. are set by the Immigration Minister, who comes under the Home Office, not by the Chancellor or Treasury.

They are routinely increased every April, usually above inflation.

[7by7]

To put things in to context I would suggest that if foreigners having served prison time for serious offences in the UK are not being deported then it is highly unlikely an innocent foreign partner failing a language test will be chucked out.

Really?

Thai woman 'preparing to leave UK' after losing immigration battle

A THAI woman who has lived and worked in Plymouth for seven years is packing her bags and preparing to leave the country after losing a gruelling immigration battle.

Earlier this month Jirapon Doidge, aged 37, was told she would be deported after sitting the wrong type of language test.

BTW, foreign criminals are being deported, even though, for a variety of reasons ranging from incompetence by officials to Article 8 appeals, not enough are. Government 'deporting too few foreign criminals'

[Jay Sata]

While that unfortunate Thai woman was targeted there are criminals like this from todays Express making a mockery of our hospitality.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/577504/Somali-gang-rapist-not-deported-cocaine-dealer

Father-of-one Abdulmajid Al-Amodi, 26, was convicted in 2006 of gang raping a 17-year-old student, which was filmed while the vile group laughed about "roasting pork".

He was sentenced to eight years in jail after a judge told him he behaved like an animal and that his student immigration status in Britain should be revoked.

However, instead, he was released after just four years in prison and moved back to Hull - where he had raped the teen.

He has since been living on £280 benefits a month while making drug deals in charity shops.

Today, Al-Amodi, of Woodbine Close, Hull, was back behind bars for two-and-a-half years after being found guilty of possession of cocaine with intent to supply.

Judge Mark Bury again told him he should be deported but Al-Amodi's family say they will fight his second deportation order.

The Home Office say they "are committed to deporting this individual" - but only at the end of his sentence.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Jay Sata

[durhamboy]

To put things in to context I would suggest that if foreigners having served prison time for serious offences in the UK are not being deported then it is highly unlikely an innocent foreign partner failing a language test will be chucked out.

Really?

Thai woman 'preparing to leave UK' after losing immigration battle

A THAI woman who has lived and worked in Plymouth for seven years is packing her bags and preparing to leave the country after losing a gruelling immigration battle.

Earlier this month Jirapon Doidge, aged 37, was told she would be deported after sitting the wrong type of language test.

BTW, foreign criminals are being deported, even though, for a variety of reasons ranging from incompetence by officials to Article 8 appeals, not enough are. Government 'deporting too few foreign criminals'

Interesting case about the Thai lady 7by7. On further reading she was actually deported but is now back in Plymouth with her husband.

The English language requirement was introduced in 2010 and yet she has, according to reports, been here for over 7 years. Therefore my understanding is that she would not have needed the English test to come here and would not need it for FLR. Something strange here. Did she mistakenly take an English test and appeal on the wrong grounds?

[moobie]

George Osborne has announced a "new" Budget will be announced on 8th July - it may be worthwhile observing what happens in it to see if the costs of visas, etc will rise?

Fees for visas, leave to remain etc. are set by the Immigration Minister, who comes under the Home Office, not by the Chancellor or Treasury.

They are routinely increased every April, usually above inflation.

7x7, whilst I agree with you on department structure and reporting it has to be said that all must go through the Exchequer to at least comment upon or add recommendations.

We will know the means on how Osborne expects to fill the £12 Billion void soon enough.

With the funds for the NHS ring-fenced along with other taxes this could be quite an interesting Budget and nothing would surprise me given the state of the other Parties (excluding the SNP.)

[wooloomooloo]

Interesting case about the Thai lady 7by7. On further reading she was actually deported but is now back in Plymouth with her husband.

The English language requirement was introduced in 2010 and yet she has, according to reports, been here for over 7 years. Therefore my understanding is that she would not have needed the English test to come here and would not need it for FLR. Something strange here. Did she mistakenly take an English test and appeal on the wrong grounds?

Just to make it easy for the forum members here is the link.

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Thai-woman-deported-UK-months-ago-makes-emotional/story-26367785-detail/story.html

Notwithstanding, we discussed this particular case at length previously and was no surprise that the lady was deported as the couple hadn't a clue about what test to take. So the applicant, Mrs Doidge, pretty much took any old test.

You will note from the link, that has been provided to make it entirely clear, that Mrs Doidge has reapplied from scratch for a new settlement visa.

Next time they will, undoubtedly, research and study the correct courses at the right time. It isn't rocket science.

[wooloomooloo]

We will just have to keep an eye on whoever gets into government next to make sure they dont change the law, Mr Doidge added.

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Thai-woman-deported-UK-months-ago-makes-emotional/story-26367785-detail/story.html

Mr Doidge is already making me nervous with his wife's renewed visa status and taken to blaming the Government two minutes after she's stepped off the plane. This guy really hasn't got a clue.

If Mr Doidge wants to employ my services for the next five years, we can call it a flat £1,000 and I'll make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. Mrs Doidge just has to pass the exams. Jeez.

We slated Mr Doidge on 18-Feb-15 and with good reason.

I worked with the Husband back in the 80's in Plymouth and if anybody on earth was going to cock up it would be this Guy......

My wife knows a lot of Thai ladies and it's interesting to note their various immigration statuses. I've seen them all from the blasé to the serious - and that's just the husbands.

Whilst I have every sympathy, what is an Entry 1 Functional Skills test? And I don't blame his wife for the oversight. The poor girl has put her faith in her husband's judgement and been let down. His wife has obviously run out of time or her husband has deigned to stump up the fee for a second application and therefore, hmm, forced the clock to run out of time.

Edited May 17, 2015 by wooloomooloo

[Jay Sata]

A bit of common sense would have saved a lot of money in this case. Why was she not allowed to take the test in the UK?

Was it worth all the cost and effort of deporting her.

Having a job and integrated she obviously had no problem passing the language test and is appears that was the only

reason she was forced to return to Thailand.

In a case such as this does the deportee get a free trip home?

Meanwhile serious criminals are allowed to play the system and remain in the UK

Edited May 18, 2015 by Jay Sata

[durhamboy]

I think there are a number of things that don't add up about this Plymouth lady's case. It seems that she was applying for ILR with the wrong English test. She subsequently passed the correct English test but this was not accepted by the Home Office. So why did she not apply for FLR for which she would not need any English test? Did no one realise this (e.g. her MP who took a great interest in the case)?

Also, she seems to have managed to get everything done back in Thailand very quickly and presumably paid over £1000 in visa and related fees - so I think Jay's comment about a free trip home is a bit faceious.

Maybe the couple were very naive but the rules have become so complex that I don't think you can blame them. I know a lot of people that should know the rules but don't.

The bigger picture to all of this is that it seems HMG are prepared to deport first and ask questions later (or never). I find that quite worrying.

[7by7]

(Some quotes removed to comply with forum software)

<snip>
Interesting case about the Thai lady 7by7. On further reading she was actually deported but is now back in Plymouth with her husband.

The English language requirement was introduced in 2010 and yet she has, according to reports, been here for over 7 years. Therefore my understanding is that she would not have needed the English test to come here and would not need it for FLR. Something strange here. Did she mistakenly take an English test and appeal on the wrong grounds?

Anyone who entered the UK with a family settlement visa before the introduction of the A1 English test and applied for FLR after it's introduction would have needed the A1 English requirement for that application.

<snip>
Notwithstanding, we discussed this particular case at length previously and was no surprise that the lady was deported as the couple hadn't a clue about what test to take. So the applicant, Mrs Doidge, pretty much took any old test.

Indeed, it was a right royal cock up by her husband.

However, I used it as it's a recent example of someone in the UK as the spouse of a British national being deported because they do not have the relevant pass in English.

<snip>
Meanwhile serious criminals are allowed to play the system and remain in the UK

It is true, as said before, that not enough convicted foreign criminals are being deported from the UK. However, that is not really relevant to the question of what will happen to a foreign spouse who has not passed a B1 English and speaking test when they apply for FLR should such a requirement be introduced.

[durhamboy]

7by7 you say "Anyone who entered the UK with a family settlement visa before the introduction of the A1 English test and applied for FLR after it's introduction would have needed the A1 English requirement for that application."

Actually it was my understanding that people in this situation did not need an English test for FLR. Have the rules been changed lately?

The lady in question actually subsequently passed the correct English test BEFORE her deportation so it would appear that an application for FLR would have been successful.

[Jay Sata]

Here we are talking about the possibility of someone failing their english test and being deported when as I have said before criminals use the human rights act and avoid being thrown out?

Surely the same act can be used where a spouses only failing is an English test?

How can some be deported so quickly,as was the case with this lady, when others are not?

Edited May 18, 2015 by Jay Sata

[bobrussell]

Was she deported or served a notice of deportation and chose to return at her/his own expense? If the taxpayer had paid for the fare, I suspect the visa application would have been looked on with a little less favour!

This may well have been a bit of a nonsense but she did not comply with the rules at the time of the application and chose to fight instead of accepting the cock up and doing it properly.

Deportation can take a few days as long as the correct paperwork is in place (overstayers with passports) as long as there is no attempt at appealing. Those taking this route can fight the system for months if not years. This is one reason why Ms May has changed the rules to allow appeals to be made from the country of origin.

If you allow one person to get round the system then presumably more would try it!

A spouse is likely to fail an English test only if he or she cannot speak English to an adequate standard. A1 and B1 are not unreasonable expectations IMO.

[wooloomooloo]

Who's your local MP, Jay? You really should be taking up your grievances with them.

You appear to offer the forum nothing, other than a constant gripe that can't be dealt with here.

I should also add that your personal grudge, and you know what I mean, drags the forum down daily.

Maybe you can take your friend along with you as well.

Both of you, as far as I can tell, have never offered any constructive advice to the members of the visas to other countries forum.

I wish you both the best of luck.

[fbf]

I see something in common with the Mr & Mrs Doidge case being discussed above and the topic Re apply UK spouse visa after refusal, which seems to be this:

If you make a mistake, you can't use the appeals process to fix it.

Like it or not, that seems to be how it works. Personally I think it would be great if they allowed the applicant to "fix" such mistakes for a reasonable extra cost and in a reasonable time. But, I don't think that's going to happen.

I guess someone in a similar situation to Mr & Mrs Doidge should think carefully about re-applying rather than going down the appeals process, but there are a couple of factors I don't understand.

1. If someone goes down the appeals route, can they also do a new application of any kind at the same time? It wouldn't seem likely to me - I would expect the appeal to cut off any other application routes while ongoing.

2. If a FLR application is turned down because of language test requirements, is there sufficient time (and is it allowed) to make a completely new application before having to leave the UK?

[danzontour]

I come from Plymouth as well. lol. In my case I did not read the right document. Normally I am very careful. It must have been all the document finding to get married in vietnam fried my brain.

[7by7]

7by7 you say "Anyone who entered the UK with a family settlement visa before the introduction of the A1 English test and applied for FLR after it's introduction would have needed the A1 English requirement for that application."

Actually it was my understanding that people in this situation did not need an English test for FLR. Have the rules been changed lately?

It is my understanding, purely from memory, that the A1 English requirement applied to all visa and FLR applicants from it's date of introduction.

I will check and get back; however as I will be looking for a 5+ year old document it may take a while.

[7by7]

Wasn't actually that difficult!

Immigration Directorate Instruction, Family Migration: Appendix FM Section 1.21

1.1. Background
An English language requirement was introduced on 29 November 2010 for those applying for entry clearance or leave to remain under Part 8 of the Immigration Rules as a fiancé(e), proposed civil partner, spouse, civil partner, unmarried partner or same sex partner of a British citizen or a person settled in the UK.
(my emphasis)

[Jay Sata]

The new government have set out their plans today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32816454

[Jay Sata]

More here

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-immigration