"ça Va" And Sawasdee?

[Richard W]

How many of us know (perhaps few care) that Thai sunak 'dog' is related to English hound and (probably) French chien?

Please tell(slowly)how they are related.

Proto-Indo-European *k^wo:n, *k^won-, *k^un- (nominative singular, strong stem, weak stem)

(k^ is the variety of k that will later palatalise in some daughter languages. Best opinion is now that it was an ordinary /k/, and that it contrasted with a backer version that did not palatalise, and a labialised version.)

> Sanskrit çva:, çun- (k^ becomes ç)

Rather hard to decline properly, so a dimunitive in -aka became more popular - çunaka

Pali form - sunakha (ç and s merge to s in Pali.)

From these, we get Thai sunak.

PIE > Pre-Germanic k^untó- 'doggy', with a 't' suffix.

k^> k (Centum change - or perhaps no change really.)

> xunþá- (k, t > x, þ by Grimm's law, o > a)

> xunðá- (Verner's law - fricatives voice after unstressed vowels)

> xúnða- (Initial (or root) stress in Germanic)

> OE hund (ð > d in OE)

> hound (u and i lengthen before 'nd', and then become the modern diphthongs.)

How we get from PIE to Latin canis is a mystery.

From canis to chien is basically the curious case of French (not Norman) ca > cha (cf. castle v. château). (I don't carry the French details in my head.)

[raslin]

How many of us know (perhaps few care) that Thai sunak 'dog' is related to English hound and (probably) French chien?

Please tell(slowly)how they are related.

I know you are an expert on these matters, are Pali and Sanskrit related, if so how?

Don't confuse the ancestery of the Thai alphabet and the language as spoken.

Not to be too picky but both Thai and French are considered to be sub-branches of the Indo-European language group. That group probably drives from a root language inwhat is today northern India and Pakistan of probaly at least 3000 to 5000 years ago. The European language group has been modified by the Latin (Romance) languages, but can be traced back to the old Indo-European root tounge from that time. of course all the laguages are very modified by the years of use. But liguists can still find traces of the old root in both Thai and french.

Now the Thai alphabet (the written characters) are from a different source. They are probably derived from Sanskrit and similiar syetems including those brought in from Burma and also Cambodia (Khamer).

The Thais are probably related to a southern Chinese tribe known as the Dai, who migrated south into Thailand at least a thousnd years ago.

Look at the term (as SPOKEN in English),as in Your Majesty. It has the same root MAHA (or Maja) meaning high or highest as the Thai term Pra Maha used for the king, meaning (basically) high father. Praha and Maha, those are sounds from the ancient Indo-European root language, which are used to designate a FAther (Pra) and the high or highest (Maha and Majesty).

But let us not forget that the Thais are not a homogenous race but have many origins, the Tai from China being just one. Bangchiang was thriving long before the Tai arrived.

[wamberal]

The Thai word for "bread" from the French "pain"?

"Farang" from "Français"? (Another reason to pronounce the "r" sound, rather than"falang")?

[moonoi]

The Thai word for "bread" from the French "pain"?

"Farang" from "Français"? (Another reason to pronounce the "r" sound, rather than"falang")?

Argh!

Its been proven that Farang does not come from Français the usage of Farang in Thai predates contact with the French....not sure why this myth continues to perpetuate but anyway here are some sources on tracing the root of Farang:

Serge Thion. 1993. "On Some Cambodian Words." Australian National University Thai-Yunnan Project Newsletter. Canberra: Research School of Pacific Studies. Number 20, March 1993, 18-23. In this paper Thion traces the word back to the Germanic 'Franks'. The word spread through Muslim trade routes after the Crusades into Africa, India, and Southeast Asia.

Another source is Jimmy Harris. 1986. "The Persian connection: Four loanwords in Siamese." Pasaa Vol.XVI, No.1 (June 1986). Bangkok: Chulalongkorn University Language Institute, 9-12. This paper traces the probable immediate source of the word in Thai to Persian traders who were established in Siam by the 16th century. The Persian word was 'farangg'.

And here is an interesting list following the usage of the word in a general "West" to "East" progression (from lingustlist.org):

"frangos" ("Westerner") - Greek

"ifrangi" - Greek ("Latins (Catholics)", Turkish, Arabic

"frang" "a European" and "frangiya" "The Country of the Franks; Western

Europe; Latin language or church" - Syriac, the classical Aramaic

(Semitic) language used in some Middle Eastern Christian churches,

"afrangui" - In Arabic (in Egypt and in some North African countries)

"ifranji" or "franji" - Arabic dialects

"faranji" - Arabic, "farangi" - Egyptian

"ifranji" (nom masculin singulier, "ifranj" or "ifranjiyine" au pluriel -

Arabic "ifranji (pl., more precisely collective) "ifranj" 'European',

"firanja" "Land of the Franks, Europe" - Modern Standard Arabic

"afrang,faranj, ferang, ferangi" - Modern Persian

"feringhi" - Persian

"farengi, farangi, pirangi" (Tamil version) etc.- Dravidian in India

"farangi" - Malayalam (borrowed from Portuguese in 16th century)

"farang" ("Westerner") in Thai

"barang" - Cambodian

"farang" - Thai from Persian "farangg" in 16th century

"pha-rang", "pha-lang-xa" - formerly Vietnamese

"barang" - Bahasa Indonesia (reduplicated) "goods", "stuff" things such as

might be brought by traders

"paalagi/papalangi/vaalagi/papa-'aa" - Samoan

("four layers"--Rarotongan)/Maori "paakehaa" (likely a coincidence)

"Ferenghi" on Star Trek.

btw Français also comes from Frank

Edit: I might add that this information was compilied by Gwyn Williams, Linguistics Department, Thammasat University, Bangkok back in 1993

Edited September 12, 2006 by moonoi

[ronw]

Many countries have two or more official languages. What you suggested was that the upper class spoke one language whilst the commoners spoke another and never the twain shall meet.

But this is precisely the situation which existed in England in the middle ages....the upper classes spoke Norman French...and the commoners spoke what eventually evolved into English...and neer the twain did meet

[Richard W]

And an even more striking example is the Russian upper class's speaking French in the 18th century.

More pertinently, in Classical Sanskrit dramas, upper class men speak Sanskrit while women and the lower classes speak Prakrits. And yes, men and women's languages can be very different.

[meadish_sweetball]

Off topic, but I remember reading about this couple of an indigenous people in South America who were 'discovered' by linguists about a decade ago; the last remainders of a tribe where men and women literally had different languages. According to what I read, they fully understood each other, but used different words.