5 Thai airlines fail to meet China's safety requirements

[moojar]

I've a friend who is a pilot and he was telling me about the lack of maintenance on Thai planes, both commercial and cargo. Their engineers do not follow international guidelines on maintenance, they swap parts from plane to plane, forge records and when they find something they can't handle, they ground the planes and Thai Airways has many planes just sit there, worth billions of baht. Then they rent other planes.

He pilots 747's and told me that one of the planes he was assigned to fly was undergoing a C check which requires it to be placed in a hanger because its a major maintenance job. Takes about 2 weeks to complete apparently. However the plane sat on the tarmac for 2 weeks, wasn't touched or moved to a hanger and then it was sent back in full service with all the paperwork signed to verify the C check was completed. Needless to say he refused to fly that plane and is now looking to move back to Europe.

Anyone interested might want to read this article http://www.eturbonews.com/58480/reason-behind-thailand-s-air-safety-problem

If you have to fly choose another airline!

That link is one scary read - verifying what your pilot mate said about falsifying C checks.

In a C4 check they are inspecting large parts of the airframe for hairline cracks, etc, and these bastards - Thai International mind you - are falsely stating AND documenting that they have done these checks.

[lovelomsak]

I flew many times in the Arctic on DC3 and Twin Otter and other small planes that were quite old. Pilots would land under severe conditions rip off the landing gear and a week later the same plane would be flying again with salvaged parts. Planes are just a machine unless a wing falls off or have explosion not really too much to worry about.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Or an engine fails/disintegrates because of substandard or worn out parts, the flying debris cuts through control systems of the plane, and the plane crashes.

Or the landing gear collapse on landing because of bad bogie beams, that ignites a fire from the engines dragging on the ground and the fuel tanks explode.

Or a few other similar kinds of things like that where airline passengers die.... short of the plane exploding or the wings falling off.

[geriatrickid]

Very True , The Chinese are apparently going to be flocking to Thailand .They lost quite a few on MH370 so aircraft safety in a big issue there. Of course if the Chinese don't allow many Thai airlines to land then the hoards will just have to use Chinese carriers

Chinese carriers are at full capacity during their key travel periods, so this isn't really going to help China. As it is its main airports are so congested, it is not unusual for there to be very long tarmac delays and cancellations.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I've a friend who is a pilot and he was telling me about the lack of maintenance on Thai planes, both commercial and cargo. Their engineers do not follow international guidelines on maintenance, they swap parts from plane to plane, forge records and when they find something they can't handle, they ground the planes and Thai Airways has many planes just sit there, worth billions of baht. Then they rent other planes.

He pilots 747's and told me that one of the planes he was assigned to fly was undergoing a C check which requires it to be placed in a hanger because its a major maintenance job. Takes about 2 weeks to complete apparently. However the plane sat on the tarmac for 2 weeks, wasn't touched or moved to a hanger and then it was sent back in full service with all the paperwork signed to verify the C check was completed. Needless to say he refused to fly that plane and is now looking to move back to Europe.

Anyone interested might want to read this article http://www.eturbonews.com/58480/reason-behind-thailand-s-air-safety-problem

If you have to fly choose another airline!

That's an interesting and telling article re the failed purchase talks over Thai Air's grounded planes...

At the beginning of the article, it has an "Adv", which usually is shorthand for "Advertisement." So in the context of that website, I'm guessing this was a kind of AvCon press release that they posted to the website as part of their apparently ongoing legal dispute with Thai Air over the failed purchase bid

At first, when reading the article, I thought, well, maybe it doesn't matter since the planes in question were out of service and sitting on the ground anyway... But then I thought about it more, and realized, even for a grounded plane, documenting C Checks as having been done, which in fact may not have been done, is likely a big NO NO any way you cut it...regardless of the status of the plane.

[siam2007]

Who are R airlines ? Never heard of them

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/R-Airlines

Great airline........their freekin planes are 21 years old!!

much of DELTA AIRLINES' fleet is almost as old:

their B-747 have an average age of 23,2 years, whereas their A-320 are still considered spring chicken at an average age of 20,1.

Oh, and not to forget they still operate a huge fleet of almost 180 ancient MD80/90, many of them 27/28 years old.....

[xtof2]

I've a friend who is a pilot and he was telling me about the lack of maintenance on Thai planes, both commercial and cargo. Their engineers do not follow international guidelines on maintenance, they swap parts from plane to plane, forge records and when they find something they can't handle, they ground the planes and Thai Airways has many planes just sit there, worth billions of baht. Then they rent other planes.

He pilots 747's and told me that one of the planes he was assigned to fly was undergoing a C check which requires it to be placed in a hanger because its a major maintenance job. Takes about 2 weeks to complete apparently. However the plane sat on the tarmac for 2 weeks, wasn't touched or moved to a hanger and then it was sent back in full service with all the paperwork signed to verify the C check was completed. Needless to say he refused to fly that plane and is now looking to move back to Europe.

Anyone interested might want to read this article http://www.eturbonews.com/58480/reason-behind-thailand-s-air-safety-problem

If you have to fly choose another airline!

Edifying !

Thanks for this interesting link that everyone should read.

I hope that the International Civil Aviation organization will do an additional investigation on that.

If these allegations of falsifications are true, Thai Airways should be blacklisted immediately.

[Thai at Heart]

Genuinely scary if these airlines are basically dodging the international standard. How the hell have they got away with it for so long?

[ExPratt]

Very True , The Chinese are apparently going to be flocking to Thailand .They lost quite a few on MH370 so aircraft safety in a big issue there. Of course if the Chinese don't allow many Thai airlines to land then the hoards will just have to use Chinese carriers

Chinese carriers are at full capacity during their key travel periods, so this isn't really going to help China. As it is its main airports are so congested, it is not unusual for there to be very long tarmac delays and cancellations.

Are they full ? didnt know that. I worked in China for a couple of years . Spent many an hour in Wuhan , Changsha and Xian waiting for a china southern with only a Green tea machine providing "Refreshment". I once also had the pleasure of losing my boarding card after entering Passing through immigration and entering departures in Guangzhou. oh what fun that was. They must have improved some in 10 years I'd say

[Wilsonandson]

The Chinese, the Japanese and soon the FAA. Wake up Thailand's airlines. You got to spend money to make money. About time you reform your ways and restart investing Thailand's Aviation businesses. Let's reset the clock and begin building a better transportation hub for not just the Thai peopoe and it's great nation, but to show the ASEAN community that Thailand is a country that can, and will succeed. Amen.

[Johnny S]

Sorry to repeat what everybody say but ... You cant make this up even if you tried Thailand is the laughing stock of the World aviation or should I say in generel and they dont have a clue, think they are World champs in everything but dont realize they got last place Again Again Again ... 5555

[tolsti]

Who are R airlines ? Never heard of them

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/R-Airlines

Great airline........their freekin planes are 21 years old!!

Not unusual. Take United Airlines, they have dozens of airplanes that are more than 20 years old.

And their Flight attendants are grannies!

[tolsti]

I've a friend who is a pilot and he was telling me about the lack of maintenance on Thai planes, both commercial and cargo. Their engineers do not follow international guidelines on maintenance, they swap parts from plane to plane, forge records and when they find something they can't handle, they ground the planes and Thai Airways has many planes just sit there, worth billions of baht. Then they rent other planes.

He pilots 747's and told me that one of the planes he was assigned to fly was undergoing a C check which requires it to be placed in a hanger because its a major maintenance job. Takes about 2 weeks to complete apparently. However the plane sat on the tarmac for 2 weeks, wasn't touched or moved to a hanger and then it was sent back in full service with all the paperwork signed to verify the C check was completed. Needless to say he refused to fly that plane and is now looking to move back to Europe.

Anyone interested might want to read this article http://www.eturbonews.com/58480/reason-behind-thailand-s-air-safety-problem

If you have to fly choose another airline!

Edifying !

Thanks for this interesting link that everyone should read.

I hope that the International Civil Aviation organization will do an additional investigation on that.

If these allegations of falsifications are true, Thai Airways should be blacklisted immediately.

Looking to go back to Europe eh? Is this pilot European? Thai Airways only employ Thai nationals for flight crew..... Hmmm

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Wake up Thailand's airlines. You got to spend money to make money. About time you reform your ways and restart investing Thailand's Aviation businesses.

Well, they could do that, except...

1. It's probably pretty hard to invest wisely when those making the investment decisions are likely golf buddies or classmates of some so and so who have little to no idea or professional expertise about successfully running an international airline, and

2. Whatever they do spend on is likely to be substandard purchases or substandard execution / construction / maintenance because (who knows...) 20 or 30 or whatever percent is getting skimmed off the top and going into various people's pockets instead of to improving/investing in the airline.

Edited May 16, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jay Sata]

Thai airline One Two Go was banned from Europe some years ago and is run by the same people as run Orient Thai.

That airline suffered the fatal crash at Phuket that killed innocent passengers when the pilots could not decide who was flying.

The FAA report blamed the company but that counted for nothing with the Thai DCA.

The coroner at the British inquest said "The evidence highlights systemic failures and a highly deficient safety culture at both [One-Two-Go Airlines and Orient Thai Airlines] airlines."

Edited May 16, 2015 by Jay Sata

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The FAA report blamed the company but that counted for nothing with the Thai DCA.

That's not really an accurate version of the unfolding of the investigation. First off, the investigating agency from the U.S.that filed its accident investigation report was the NTSB, National Transportation Safety Board, which is a separate entity from the FAA.

But more to the point, according to the written history of the One-Two-Go crash, basically, the Thai accident investigators did their best to blame the crash on wind sheer/weather and absolve the airline and pilots of any responsibility.

But, leaks of falsified airline documents to the public in the wake of the crash and the NTSB's own independent investigation (because the aircraft was a U.S. manufactured one) ruled out wind sheer as a cause and instead got into the range of issues relating to pilot error and airline safety failures.

In the end, despite their original position, the Thai authorities were pretty much compelled to adopt the NTSB's findings into their own final report on the crash. But it certainly wouldn't have ended up that way if the Thai authorities had been left to their own conclusions alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Two-GO_Airlines_Flight_269

[djjamie]

What a joke. Chinese safety requirements are as robust as Pacquio's shoulder was during the Mayweather fight!

I witness on a certain internet site once every 4 weeks a person getting sliced in half from elevators (lifts) that fail in China while the person is entering or exiting the lift.

Their idea of health and safety is steel capped thongs.

[Jay Sata]

The FAA report blamed the company but that counted for nothing with the Thai DCA.

That's not really an accurate version of the unfolding of the investigation. First off, the investigating agency from the U.S.that filed its accident investigation report was the NTSB, National Transportation Safety Board, which is a separate entity from the FAA.

But more to the point, according to the written history of the One-Two-Go crash, basically, the Thai accident investigators did their best to blame the crash on wind sheer/weather and absolve the airline and pilots of any responsibility.

But, leaks of falsified airline documents to the public in the wake of the crash and the NTSB's own independent investigation (because the aircraft was a U.S. manufactured one) ruled out wind sheer as a cause and instead got into the range of issues relating to pilot error and airline safety failures.

In the end, despite their original position, the Thai authorities were pretty much compelled to adopt the NTSB's findings into their own final report on the crash. But it certainly wouldn't have ended up that way if the Thai authorities had been left to their own conclusions alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Two-GO_Airlines_Flight_269

Good correction and my error citing FAA over NTSB.

Bottom line is in a western country such as the UK the senior management would have been facing jail time for corporate manslaughter. The pilots were well over their legal work time and there were cockpit resource management issues which continue to this day.

In brief for non aviation readers in Asia there are often issues where well qualified pilots will never question an older pilot because of his age or status.

Both reports found that the Captain and First Officer had worked hours vastly in excess of the legal flight limits; that the first officer attempted to transfer control to the captain during the go-around; that neither pilot initiated a go-around and that the training and safety programs at the airline were deficient.

The Thai Department of Civil Aviation have tended to turn a blind eye for too long to well connected people at

the top.

More than three years after the crash, the British coroner cited the "flagrant disregard for passenger safety" by the airline and said "the primary failure so far as I am concerned relates to the corporate culture which prevailed both One-Two-GO Airlines and Orient Thai Airlines prior to and following the air crash."

One-Two-Go Airlines is prohibited from operating in European Union nations due to safety concerns. At the time of the accident the airline was owned by Orient Thai Airlines and in July 2010, it fully re-branded as Orient Thai Airlines.

Just a final point...other Asian airlines such as Adam Air have similar management problems and serious accident records.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Jay Sata

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yep, that's a fuller recounting of what went off with and after the Phuket crash.

AFAIK, it basically led to One-Two-Go eventually going out of business, albeit in name only, since it really was an Orient Thai operation all along in many respects. And, AFAIK, no one at the corporate end of things was ever held responsible for their role by the Thai authorities, either in a financial penalty or criminal prosecution sense.

But, it seems to me, the full history of what led to and followed the Phuket crash is a pretty good roadmap for what ultimately has led to the current problems with Thai aviation running afoul of international aviation safety standards.

The DCA claimed they were regularly auditing One-Two-Go back then as required. So, if DCA had been doing their job then, how did it come to pass that the airport's wind shear warning system was non-functional at the time of the crash, that the airline's training manuals and procedures didn't include standard elements, that the airport's emergency response procedures weren't correct, that pilots were regularly working beyond maximum hours, etc etc. And, interestingly, apparently no lab test results were done (or kept) on the deceased pilots as part of their Thai police-performed autopsies.

[fritzzz25]

The FAA report blamed the company but that counted for nothing with the Thai DCA.

That's not really an accurate version of the unfolding of the investigation. First off, the investigating agency from the U.S.that filed its accident investigation report was the NTSB, National Transportation Safety Board, which is a separate entity from the FAA.

But more to the point, according to the written history of the One-Two-Go crash, basically, the Thai accident investigators did their best to blame the crash on wind sheer/weather and absolve the airline and pilots of any responsibility.

But, leaks of falsified airline documents to the public in the wake of the crash and the NTSB's own independent investigation (because the aircraft was a U.S. manufactured one) ruled out wind sheer as a cause and instead got into the range of issues relating to pilot error and airline safety failures.

In the end, despite their original position, the Thai authorities were pretty much compelled to adopt the NTSB's findings into their own final report on the crash. But it certainly wouldn't have ended up that way if the Thai authorities had been left to their own conclusions alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Two-GO_Airlines_Flight_269

Good correction and my error citing FAA over NTSB.

Bottom line is in a western country such as the UK the senior management would have been facing jail time for corporate manslaughter. The pilots were well over their legal work time and there were cockpit resource management issues which continue to this day.

In brief for non aviation readers in Asia there are often issues where well qualified pilots will never question an older pilot because of his age or status.

Both reports found that the Captain and First Officer had worked hours vastly in excess of the legal flight limits; that the first officer attempted to transfer control to the captain during the go-around; that neither pilot initiated a go-around and that the training and safety programs at the airline were deficient.

The Thai Department of Civil Aviation have tended to turn a blind eye for too long to well connected people at

the top.

More than three years after the crash, the British coroner cited the "flagrant disregard for passenger safety" by the airline and said "the primary failure so far as I am concerned relates to the corporate culture which prevailed both One-Two-GO Airlines and Orient Thai Airlines prior to and following the air crash."

One-Two-Go Airlines is prohibited from operating in European Union nations due to safety concerns. At the time of the accident the airline was owned by Orient Thai Airlines and in July 2010, it fully re-branded as Orient Thai Airlines.

Just a final point...other Asian airlines such as Adam Air have similar management problems and serious accident records.

Exactly the cause of the Asiana crash at SFO.

Too much problem with "status" in Asia. CRM doesn't exist there. Just look to the "boss" in the left seat and hope he does things right.

It is hard to believe that Orient Thai was ever allowed an Airworthiness Certificate ever again. But we all know that some baht just changed hands

[Jay Sata]

The recent incident plastered all over Chinese media involving Orient Thai OX682 did a lot of damage to confidence in Thai airlines.

The flight was carrying Chinese tourists home from Phuket when an engine failed, and the rate of descent was so fast many passengers suffered from nosebleeds and fainted due to the sudden loss of altitude.

[PaPiPuPePo]

Wow, when you can't meet China's safety regulations it's time to ditch the aircraft!

Just make sure they're not carrying passengers when you do.

[PaPiPuPePo]

I thought the op was "suss" when I read the words "China's" and "safety" in the same sentence.

I did a few trips to mainland China and was amazed by their apparent lack of safety concerns. Driving on the roads there is insane, although I must say I did a few internal flights there and they seemed ok. It was just getting to the bloody airport that was scary.

I agree, nowhere I've been is the adage more true that the riskiest part of flying is driving to/from the airport.

[Jay Sata]

I thought the op was "suss" when I read the words "China's" and "safety" in the same sentence.

I did a few trips to mainland China and was amazed by their apparent lack of safety concerns. Driving on the roads there is insane, although I must say I did a few internal flights there and they seemed ok. It was just getting to the bloody airport that was scary.

I agree, nowhere I've been is the adage more true that the riskiest part of flying is driving to/from the airport.

Chinese roads are actually safer than Thailand which has one of the biggest road traffic casualty rates in the world.

[jackanapes]

another nail in the coffin for Thailand its time they started getting people in who know the business and money has to be spent on new planes and getting up to date and they must do it now.

[Jay Sata]

With the expansion of Thailands aviation sector where are all the extra pilots and ground engineers coming from?

Engineers need to be well qualified and have good english skills as all the aircraft manuals and engineering bulletins are not published in Thai.

We all know how abysmal teaching of english is in Thailand. I sometimes struggle to understand Thai pilots and cabin crew announcements.