Texas shootout among rival biker gangs leaves 9 dead

[NeverSure]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

[impulse]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

I challenge you to get through even a simple traffic stop without answering the cops' questions, like where are you coming from, where are you headed, do you have any drugs or weapons in the car.

And I have been stopped and questioned at dozens of DUI checkpoints, with absolutely no "reasonable cause" to suspect I was doing anything wrong. Can't get through those without talking either. Because failure to answer gives them reasonable cause.

It would have been fairly easy to have a "random DUI" stop of all cyclists that day, with further scrutiny on those that presented reasonable cause.

Any evidence found in such an operation would probably be thrown out in court (if it made it to court), but the gunfight may not have happened. Or it may have happened anyway.

BTW, I'm not saying any of this is fair, or right. It kind of sucks. But that's the country we live in nowadays.

[Publicus]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

State of Emergency local, state, federal, provides specific legal authority that is extraordinary and can be challenged in a court of law. The governor could have activated the National Guard, for instance.

A political jurisdiction local, state, federal, has a duty and responsibility to preserve, protect, defend itself and the population against civil disorder, clear and present threats of civil disorder, criminals, anarchists etc who present a clear and present danger and the like, and the swarm of bikers who consistently ran freely in Waco are armed criminals with no regard of life.

This was established by the SCOTUS a hundred years ago and by law on an ongoing basis.

Listening to right wingers use civil libertarian defenses to justify allowing armed criminal gangs of bikers free reign is frankly laughable not to mention absurd, given especially and in particular the wild havoc of a bloodbath that unnecessarily did occur.

Bizarre.

[NeverSure]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

I challenge you to get through even a simple traffic stop without answering the cops' questions, like where are you coming from, where are you headed, do you have any drugs or weapons in the car.

And I have been stopped and questioned at dozens of DUI checkpoints, with absolutely no "reasonable cause" to suspect I was doing anything wrong. Can't get through those without talking either. Because failure to answer gives them reasonable cause.

It would have been fairly easy to have a "random DUI" stop of all cyclists that day, with further scrutiny on those that presented reasonable cause.

Any evidence found in such an operation would probably be thrown out in court (if it made it to court), but the gunfight may not have happened. Or it may have happened anyway.

BTW, I'm not saying any of this is fair, or right. It kind of sucks. But that's the country we live in nowadays.

Driving is designated as a privilege and stops aren't criminal stops. You don't have to talk to the cop. You can just sit there silently and take your citation. He sure can't search you or your vehicle unless he arrests you. Arrest is a serious thing for him.

If he happens, as a byproduct of stopping you to think you are intoxicated he now has probable cause to take action. If he sees you driving erratically he has probable cause. Just remember that driving isn't in the constitution, is licensed by the states and the courts have found it to be a privilege.

Gun ownership is a constitutional right. The right to not be stopped and searched without probable cause is a constitutional right. The right to remain silent is a constitutional right.

If a cop tries to stop me and ask me if I have a gun, I can just keep walking. The exception is that if he has probable cause to believe I've committed a crime he can arrest me. Until I'm under arrest I can keep walking. Carrying a gun isn't probable cause that I've committed a crime.

Sorry for putting things in italics. I did it because they are right out of the first 4 amendments to the Constitution, contained in the Bill of Rights.

Cheers

[CMNightRider]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

I challenge you to get through even a simple traffic stop without answering the cops' questions, like where are you coming from, where are you headed, do you have any drugs or weapons in the car.

And I have been stopped and questioned at dozens of DUI checkpoints, with absolutely no "reasonable cause" to suspect I was doing anything wrong. Can't get through those without talking either. Because failure to answer gives them reasonable cause.

It would have been fairly easy to have a "random DUI" stop of all cyclists that day, with further scrutiny on those that presented reasonable cause.

Any evidence found in such an operation would probably be thrown out in court (if it made it to court), but the gunfight may not have happened. Or it may have happened anyway.

BTW, I'm not saying any of this is fair, or right. It kind of sucks. But that's the country we live in nowadays.

When stopped for a traffic violation, what is wrong with answering a couple of simple questions like, where are you coming from, where are you headed, and do you have any drugs or weapons in your vehicle? The officer asking you those questions are being proactive and looking for criminal behavior. As soon as they deem you are not involved in criminal activity, you would be free to leave.

This is about the bikers in Texas being involved in a shootout. The Texas law enforcement did an outstanding job in containing the violence. Don't be such a hater.

[CMNightRider]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

State of Emergency local, state, federal, provides specific legal authority that is extraordinary and can be challenged in a court of law. The governor could have activated the National Guard, for instance.

A political jurisdiction local, state, federal, has a duty and responsibility to preserve, protect, defend itself and the population against civil disorder, clear and present threats of civil disorder, criminals, anarchists etc who present a clear and present danger and the like, and the swarm of bikers who consistently ran freely in Waco are armed criminals with no regard of life.

This was established by the SCOTUS a hundred years ago and by law on an ongoing basis.

Listening to right wingers use civil libertarian defenses to justify allowing armed criminal gangs of bikers free reign is frankly laughable not to mention absurd, given especially and in particular the wild havoc of a bloodbath that unnecessarily did occur.

Bizarre.

Your repeated nonsensical posts about the biker incident in Texas, "is frankly laughable not to mention absurd." Bizarre indeed.

[impulse]

When stopped for a traffic violation, what is wrong with answering a couple of simple questions like, where are you coming from, where are you headed, and do you have any drugs or weapons in your vehicle?

If you say yes, you have given them reasonable cause. If you say no, and they later find drugs or weapons, they have you on obstruction of justice, or lying to an official.

The honest truth is it is none of their business where I just came from and where I'm going. But I answer every time anyway (the few times I've been pulled over), just to avoid the hassle.

Bottom line, cops are people. There are good people, there are bad people. There are good cops. There are bad cops. Add to the mix the fact that becoming a cop allows someone to wield a weapon and boss people around, and its easy to see how the job attracts a few mean and power hungry people.

We'll see whether they did an admirable job in Waco, or maybe there were a few trigger happy buffoons scattered among the dedicated lawmen. I'll wait for the videos and information released from investigators who have no reason to fear the truth.

BTW, did they put anyone on administrative leave so they can't tamper with the witnesses and evidence that may paint them in a rather unfavorable light? Or are the cops involved investigating themselves?

Edited May 22, 2015 by impulse

[NeverSure]

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy...

"The laws still allow such a policy..."

No they don't. That would be illegal search and seizure. A cop can't lay a hand on me or even make me talk to him unless I'm under arrest. I'f it's false arrest meaning he doesn't have probable cause (which he can articulate to a judge) then he's going down for it.

I challenge you to get through even a simple traffic stop without answering the cops' questions, like where are you coming from, where are you headed, do you have any drugs or weapons in the car.

And I have been stopped and questioned at dozens of DUI checkpoints, with absolutely no "reasonable cause" to suspect I was doing anything wrong. Can't get through those without talking either. Because failure to answer gives them reasonable cause.

It would have been fairly easy to have a "random DUI" stop of all cyclists that day, with further scrutiny on those that presented reasonable cause.

Any evidence found in such an operation would probably be thrown out in court (if it made it to court), but the gunfight may not have happened. Or it may have happened anyway.

BTW, I'm not saying any of this is fair, or right. It kind of sucks. But that's the country we live in nowadays.

Lots of police and attorneys to listen to if you're interested. LINK

This guy choses to talk some. The next guy is a law professor saying don't do it.

Edited May 22, 2015 by NeverSure

[harryfrompattaya]

The Police are really nice Le Roy and myself have to say even when arrested the secret is to say "I am sorry for causing you trouble I will help you make this arrest easy" they even included that in the facts of arrest and that statement will help

Remember be nice to police if you want to beat the crime

And if you committed no crime still be nice

The Police usually help you beat the crime because they do not want to work to hard and do look for extra charges

They are happy to charge for one crime not 300 hundred'

Only a big fool will mouth off to the police.

Edited May 22, 2015 by harryfrompattaya

[impulse]

Lots of police and attorneys to listen to if you're interested. LINK

Good info, but all of that is kind of an aside.

My 2 biggest concerns here are that the Waco cops are the ones investigating their own actions, and the rights of some subset of the 170 guys locked up under bail of a million smackeroonies.

Some of them have already lost their jobs, and the simple fact of being charged will cost them tens, if not hundreds of thousands in legal fees. Most will have to sell (or at least put up) their homes to make bail, and bail bondsmen (an oft discredited money grab) will be having a field day.

Sure, some of them obviously deserve to be locked up. But the ones who just showed up at a monthly meeting -with no malice- are seeing their lives ruined and their life savings being sucked down a drain. Long before any kind of due process.

And I think that's wrong. But again, that's the country our politicians have created (but don't have to live in themselves- they have their gated communities and lots of money for lawyers). All driven by lobby money from the lawyers and the bail bondsmen, and the prison industry.

[NeverSure]

Lots of police and attorneys to listen to if you're interested. LINK

Good info, but all of that is kind of an aside.

My 2 biggest concerns here are that the Waco cops are the ones investigating their own actions, and the rights of some subset of the 170 guys locked up under bail of a million smackeroonies.

Some of them have already lost their jobs, and the simple fact of being charged will cost them tens, if not hundreds of thousands in legal fees. Most will have to sell (or at least put up) their homes to make bail, and bail bondsmen (an oft discredited money grab) will be having a field day.

Sure, some of them obviously deserve to be locked up. But the ones who just showed up at a monthly meeting -with no malice- are seeing their lives ruined and their life savings being sucked down a drain. Long before any kind of due process.

And I think that's wrong. But again, that's the country our politicians have created (but don't have to live in themselves- they have their gated communities and lots of money for lawyers). All driven by lobby money from the lawyers and the bail bondsmen, and the prison industry.

I think it's too early to reach conclusions about what went down and why.

[goreme]

Neither Goreme, but it is obvious by your posts, you know woefully little about police in America.

Yes, all the documented evidence of intentional police brutality, coverups and killings are fabricated by the media and those know-nothing liberals.

OMG! What is wrong with you? America's law enforcement are dedicated professionals that stand between law abiding citizens and anarchy. I didn't imply you were a "know-nothing liberal" but if you want to align with this group it's up to you.

This is about the biker shootout in Texas, where law enforcement did a good job it containing their violence and arresting the people involved. Get a life dude.

Many in law enforcement behave professionally and many dont, hence the ample evidence proving such. Given the legal right to possess a firearm and detain others over 'probable cause' instills a sense of power that is easily abused.

You can live in denial but the reality is that the biker shootout is just one of many examples of increasing lawlessness and gun violence in the US. Whether the situation was handled properly is still pending investigation.

[zydeco]

The Police are really nice Le Roy and myself have to say even when arrested the secret is to say "I am sorry for causing you trouble I will help you make this arrest easy" they even included that in the facts of arrest and that statement will help

Remember be nice to police if you want to beat the crime

And if you committed no crime still be nice

The Police usually help you beat the crime because they do not want to work to hard and do look for extra charges

They are happy to charge for one crime not 300 hundred'

Only a big fool will mouth off to the police.

Always good to hear from you, Harry.

[JDGRUEN]

After 40 years in Texas... rating the cops

Texas Rangers -- (not the baseball team) ... not too many of them and not in direct contact with a lot of the public - difficult to rate -- but always seem to be professional.

DPS -- State Troopers -- Dept. of Public Safety ... Generally the most professional cops in Texas...

Sheriff's Deputes --- If a Good Professional Sheriff -- then Deputies usually follow -- but the reverse is true also

Large city cops --- usually pretty good ... lots of people watching them - many supervisors

Small Town cops ... the bottom of the barrel -- a few good - many mediocre ... many bad.. -- dismissals from big city PD's and many who could not pass muster for big city PD's.

County Prosecutors - and their assistants -- more than willing to shave off the top of due process... over charging - charges layered upon a person to a ridiculous extent ... Notch cutters ... back slappers -- their own. Willing to climb the ladder on the citizen's back in order to jump into the political arena,

ALL The Above IMO...

Edited May 22, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[zydeco]

After 40 years in Texas... rating the cops

Texas Rangers -- (not the baseball team) ... not too many of them and not in direct contact with a lot of the public - difficult to rate -- but always seem to be professional.

DPS -- State Troopers -- Dept. of Public Safety ... Generally the most professional cops in Texas...

Sheriff's Deputes --- If a Good Professional Sheriff -- then Deputies usually follow -- but the reverse is true also

Large city cops --- usually pretty good ... lots of people watching them - many supervisors

Small Town cops ... the bottom of the barrel -- a few good - many mediocre ... many bad.. -- dismissals from big city PD's and many who could not pass muster for big city PD's.

County Prosecutors - and their assistants -- more than willing to shave off the top of due process... over charging - charges layered upon a person to a ridiculous extent ... Notch cutters ... back slappers -- their own. Willing to climb the ladder on the citizen's back in order to jump into the political arena,

ALL The Above IMO...

These days I would rather trust a major suburban PD than a big city. For example, much rather deal with Plano, Richardson, Carrollton, and, as we saw recently, Irving PDs than Dallas PD. Hiring quality has plummeted in big city PDs.

[chuckd]

The Rangers are top of the heap in law enforcement. They are the elite of the DPS.

None finer, national or state.

I've known some over the years and they are the finest.

"One riot, one Ranger".

[ttthailand]

I blame this all on the police... Why would you stop something that was self cleaning. Another hour and 90 % of the trash would have been taken out.

[JDGRUEN]

The Rangers are top of the heap in law enforcement. They are the elite of the DPS.

None finer, national or state.

I've known some over the years and they are the finest.

"One riot, one Ranger".

I had forgotten that they are part of the DPS. My only real knowledge of the Texas Rangers (as thy are seldom seen) is a TV docudrama about catching a serial killer - not the cereal killer that hangs around here As for the TV series - well - it's TV.

[JDGRUEN]

After 40 years in Texas... rating the cops

Texas Rangers -- (not the baseball team) ... not too many of them and not in direct contact with a lot of the public - difficult to rate -- but always seem to be professional.

DPS -- State Troopers -- Dept. of Public Safety ... Generally the most professional cops in Texas...

Sheriff's Deputes --- If a Good Professional Sheriff -- then Deputies usually follow -- but the reverse is true also

Large city cops --- usually pretty good ... lots of people watching them - many supervisors

Small Town cops ... the bottom of the barrel -- a few good - many mediocre ... many bad.. -- dismissals from big city PD's and many who could not pass muster for big city PD's.

County Prosecutors - and their assistants -- more than willing to shave off the top of due process... over charging - charges layered upon a person to a ridiculous extent ... Notch cutters ... back slappers -- their own. Willing to climb the ladder on the citizen's back in order to jump into the political arena,

ALL The Above IMO...

These days I would rather trust a major suburban PD than a big city. For example, much rather deal with Plano, Richardson, Carrollton, and, as we saw recently, Irving PDs than Dallas PD. Hiring quality has plummeted in big city PDs.

I was grouping in the major suburb PD with the big cities they surround. But you are right ... they should be considered separate,,, Garland, Addison, Irving,, etc.... they are big enough to have properly manages system with a budget to attract good candidates... but not Baltch Springs...

[JDGRUEN]

Waco Shootout Linked to North Texas Attacks Fort Worth biker murder, other attacks blamed on escalating turf war

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Waco-Shootout-Linked-to-North-Texas-Attacks-304170711.html

[sgtsabai]

I'm guessing many of you have not been stopped lately. If asked to ID, you WILL ID, failure to do so means you go to jail. You can stand on your Constitutional rights all you want, they went out the window years ago, even if you are white, forget black or brown. All that will get you is a trip to the local "Hilton", or shot. OK, you still have rights if white and rich. I got stopped at one of those illegal roadblocks in Texass some years ago when I was still a cop. The DPS officer saw my badge, asked where from, I said New Mexico, he said go on. I said you realize the Supreme Court just ruled against these, he said screw 'em we'll keep doing them. If you think you still have rights under the Constitution you are sadly mistaken. None of us know what happened in Waco and we don't know if it could have been handled better or not. This I will bet on, if it had been a black civil rights gathering or an OWS gathering, they would have been vamped by the cops from the git go.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm guessing many of you have not been stopped lately. If asked to ID, you WILL ID, failure to do so means you go to jail. You can stand on your Constitutional rights all you want, they went out the window years ago, even if you are white, forget black or brown.

It has been that way all my life. Nothing new. If you are asked for ID, you produce it. I keep wondering how someone can not have a photo ID to vote.

[impulse]

With no comment on veracity, here's another angle on the story:

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/eyewitness-account-of-twin-peaks-shooting-a-setup-from-start/article_4ff51c8e-01a5-11e5-9ab0-8f6b99793a16.html

[pegman]

Outside of maybe the first shooter they were just "standing their ground" weren't they? This is just the inevitable conclusion to the wacko gun laws in parts of that country. "You need to be armed in case something happens". Well something did and this is the result. In any civilized country with sane hand gun laws the cops would have disarmed and arrested them prior to any of them reaching the site.

[pegman]

With no comment on veracity, here's another angle on the story:

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/eyewitness-account-of-twin-peaks-shooting-a-setup-from-start/article_4ff51c8e-01a5-11e5-9ab0-8f6b99793a16.html

Sounds plausible. I watched a early press conference and the cop giving it was making it up as he went.

[impulse]

Outside of maybe the first shooter they were just "standing their ground" weren't they? This is just the inevitable conclusion to the wacko gun laws in parts of that country. "You need to be armed in case something happens". Well something did and this is the result. In any civilized country with sane hand gun laws the cops would have disarmed and arrested them prior to any of them reaching the site.

The only caveat there is that Twin Peaks served alcohol. It's been awhile since I've been back home, but I recall Texas may not allow concealed carry in places that serve alcohol, even with a CCP- concealed carry permit. And I'm not sure whether that would also cover the parking lot, or just inside the building.

Anyone got better info than mine?

[chuckd]

Outside of maybe the first shooter they were just "standing their ground" weren't they? This is just the inevitable conclusion to the wacko gun laws in parts of that country. "You need to be armed in case something happens". Well something did and this is the result. In any civilized country with sane hand gun laws the cops would have disarmed and arrested them prior to any of them reaching the site.

The only caveat there is that Twin Peaks served alcohol. It's been awhile since I've been back home, but I recall Texas may not allow concealed carry in places that serve alcohol, even with a CCP- concealed carry permit. And I'm not sure whether that would also cover the parking lot, or just inside the building.

Anyone got better info than mine?

Ran across this in Wikipedia...

" It is a felony to carry a firearm while on the premises of a business that makes more than 51% of its revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption (colloquially "bars", "nightclubs", "taverns", "saloons", etc.). "

It would seem concealed carry is legal in the case of Twin Peaks as I seriously doubt more than 51% of their revenue is from the sale of alcoholic beverages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas

[JDGRUEN]

Outside of maybe the first shooter they were just "standing their ground" weren't they? This is just the inevitable conclusion to the wacko gun laws in parts of that country. "You need to be armed in case something happens". Well something did and this is the result. In any civilized country with sane hand gun laws the cops would have disarmed and arrested them prior to any of them reaching the site.

America is insane .. we are crazy about Freedom, Liberty and Responsibility of the Individual

[pegman]

Outside of maybe the first shooter they were just "standing their ground" weren't they? This is just the inevitable conclusion to the wacko gun laws in parts of that country. "You need to be armed in case something happens". Well something did and this is the result. In any civilized country with sane hand gun laws the cops would have disarmed and arrested them prior to any of them reaching the site.

America is insane .. we are crazy about Freedom, Liberty and Responsibility of the Individual

555, or just plain insane. You guys keep taking each other out like you are and when the dust settles my family will come back down there to reclaim our property stolen by the domestic terrorists in the 1780's.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't count your chickens. The radical Muslims in blighty will have taken you out of the picture by then.