UN says will engage Israel on 'realistic options' for talks

[sirineou]

Nobody. It was a ruling that it belonged to Israel. Israel has unbroken ties to that land going back 3,700 years including having their own language. Israel built Jerusalem and always occupied it.

You can give me anything you wish if you have a military to back it up.

if it always belonged to Israel why was there a need for the UN to give it to them?

Please read the thread or do some homework. It had been taken from Israel by force. The UN simply declared that it was Israel's land which it was.

It is funny how, when it suits some one, UN declarations are quoted and used as evidence, other times.......

Not so much

[Lukecan]

The UN has been bought by Arab oil and Arab oil money. Israel would have to be stupid NOT to ignore the UN.

Before this, they were bought by Jewish money. Seems jews don't want to pay them anymore so they have opted to take arab oil money instead.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Lukecan

[NeverSure]

Nobody. It was a ruling that it belonged to Israel. Israel has unbroken ties to that land going back 3,700 years including having their own language. Israel built Jerusalem and always occupied it.

You can give me anything you wish if you have a military to back it up.

if it always belonged to Israel why was there a need for the UN to give it to them?

Please read the thread or do some homework. It had been taken from Israel by force. The UN simply declared that it was Israel's land which it was.

It is funny how, when it suits some one, UN declarations are quoted and used as evidence, other times.......

Not so much

OK. It belonged to Israel for thousands of years and Israel is enforcing its borders like any other country would do. The so-called Palestinians appeared on the radar in the 1980's and have no claim to anything.

Israel isn't going to give its historical E. Jerusalem to a rag tag bunch of nomadic wanderers who call themselves Palestinians but are really terrorists who aren't even wanted by any Muslim country.

How's that?

[NeverSure]

Before this, they were bought by Jewish money. Seems jews don't want to pay them anymore so they have opted to take arab oil money instead.

[sirineou]

if it always belonged to Israel why was there a need for the UN to give it to them?

Please read the thread or do some homework. It had been taken from Israel by force. The UN simply declared that it was Israel's land which it was.

It is funny how, when it suits some one, UN declarations are quoted and used as evidence, other times.......

Not so much

OK. It belonged to Israel for thousands of years and Israel is enforcing its borders like any other country would do. The so-called Palestinians appeared on the radar in the 1980's and have no claim to anything.

Israel isn't going to give its historical E. Jerusalem to a rag tag bunch of nomadic wanderers who call themselves Palestinians but are really terrorists who aren't even wanted by any Muslim country.

How's that?

That is one narrative. there are others

[NeverSure]

OK. It belonged to Israel for thousands of years and Israel is enforcing its borders like any other country would do. The so-called Palestinians appeared on the radar in the 1980's and have no claim to anything.

Israel isn't going to give its historical E. Jerusalem to a rag tag bunch of nomadic wanderers who call themselves Palestinians but are really terrorists who aren't even wanted by any Muslim country.

How's that?

That is one narrative. there are others

Really. Apparently they can't be articulated then? I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where I am historically or geographically mistaken.

I pretty much stayed out of this thread for a long time and then chose to post some actual geographic and historical information.

If this is a debate, don't you think you should provide more information than that?

[Steely Dan]

I can scarcely credit this topic warrants 220+ posts. As of now there are no realistic options because the Palestinians haven't even worked out who has the authority to negotiate on their behalves. The UN can't be considered an honest broker because within them is the large voting block of the OIC, who really decide what position the Palestinians can accept.Then we have ISIS, who are as much a threat to OIC members as to Israel.

Therefore there is little that can be achieved until the dust settles. Everyone knows this but can't let go of the fantasy that a settlement between Israel and Palestine would magically make Islam into a religion of peace. It will not end of story.

[Ulysses G.]

In the OP the UN Ambassador is still waiting for Israel to acknowledge the part you omit from the Balfour Declaration..."It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

That has clearly not been done. Any realistic option for peace in the future must address that principle or no deal.

As usual, you are fabricating. I did not "omit" anything from the Balfour Declaration. I did not quote it. However, if the Arabs had not started a WAR with the Jews, their "rights" would not have been affected. They brought all that on themselves.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[JDGRUEN]

I can scarcely credit this topic warrants 220+ posts. As of now there are no realistic options because the Palestinians haven't even worked out who has the authority to negotiate on their behalves. The UN can't be considered an honest broker because within them is the large voting block of the OIC, who really decide what position the Palestinians can accept.Then we have ISIS, who are as much a threat to OIC members as to Israel.

Therefore there is little that can be achieved until the dust settles. Everyone knows this but can't let go of the fantasy that a settlement between Israel and Palestine would magically make Islam into a religion of peace. It will not end of story.

And to add to your concise and accurate conclusion, Despite all the historical discussion going on - on this thread and others, the common sense aspects of modern times are related to the fact that the 'Palestinians' - those Arabs in the neighborhood have been waging a violent Infitada or a series of violent Infitadas against Israel - since when - the early 1990's?

This incessant string of violent Infitada actions conducted by the 'Palestenians' against Israel goes on as an undercurrent not necessarily related to the other acts of outright war conducted by Hamas. In light of this modern set of facts - throw the historical context out the windows - because it does not apply until Arab violence stops.

Does anyone rationally think that Israel is going to give up land that buffers and partially negates the violence waged against them on an everyday basis? This string of violent Infitadas threatens Israel everyday and some daydreamers think that Israel is just going to give up land and allow the violence to get closer to core body of Israelis? This is not logical thought - no country is going to give up a buffer space that keeps the daily constant violence flung against them many more kilometers away (if they have that buffer) - no matter which countries are involved and what the issues are argued. It is a nonsensical suggestion in light of daily violence conducted by the 'Palestenians' themselves and HAMAS.

Only when the 'Palestinians' formally announce a stop to the Infitada and HAMAS formally announces a end to acts of war and the vowed intent to destroy Israel can there be any 'engagement in 'realistic' options about Israel'. If the 'Palestinians and HAMAS do not announce these realities that I describe and stick to them - then what ever the UN does is just silly childlike movements of chess pieces on a board... the efforts will make no sense and again be wasted.

But people hate to admit that Charades are Charades - the UN most especially.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory, troll posts and replies removed.

[harryfrompattaya]

If the UN closes down Israel or their is no Israel Africans will have no place to try to sneak into in the Middle East

No mater how bad it is the best for Afriacans

[dexterm]

We can debate all we like about phony histories, and whose deity has granted which religion more right to a lump of rocks. And it's all very interesting in a Thai Visa Forum thread.

But the reality is that the UN is not tvf, and silly arguments don't count there. 4.5 million Palestinians living under Israeli occupation and the umbrella of UNHCR do. A Palestinian father holding a sick daughter in his arms being hassled by the IDF all day long at checkpoints just to travel 20 kms to get some treatment, isn't really concerned about the spin of international legal niceties or the semantic acrobatics of who is a Palestinian. He knows he's real and so is his suffering.

70% of the world's countries have already recognized Palestine with more signing up in the future.The tide of world opinion is turning against Israel because of the wrong it has done to Palestinians and the injustice of occupation it is still perpetrating today.

Now the reality is that Israel can try muddling through maintaining the status quo, but the problems for Israel will only grow. Muddling through is not a solution.

I have a feeling that the new extreme right wing government will try to pull some sort of racist stunt and matters may escalate more quickly than anticipated drawing further attention to Israel's occupation., and forcing Israel to face some realistic options.

It is a pity the Zionist Union did not win the last election, but the glimmer of hope is that many Israelis did vote for them. Netanyahu's government is hanging by a thread. Even a bad cold may delay a single member's crucial vote.

I hope next time around Israeli voters will realize there is a better path to peace and prosperity, than further world isolation.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dexterm

[Steely Dan]

I can scarcely credit this topic warrants 220+ posts. As of now there are no realistic options because the Palestinians haven't even worked out who has the authority to negotiate on their behalves. The UN can't be considered an honest broker because within them is the large voting block of the OIC, who really decide what position the Palestinians can accept.Then we have ISIS, who are as much a threat to OIC members as to Israel.

Therefore there is little that can be achieved until the dust settles. Everyone knows this but can't let go of the fantasy that a settlement between Israel and Palestine would magically make Islam into a religion of peace. It will not end of story.

And to add to your concise and accurate conclusion, Despite all the historical discussion going on - on this thread and others, the common sense aspects of modern times are related to the fact that the 'Palestinians' - those Arabs in the neighborhood have been waging a violent Infitada or a series of violent Infitadas against Israel - since when - the early 1990's?

This incessant string of violent Infitada actions conducted by the 'Palestenians' against Israel goes on as an undercurrent not necessarily related to the other acts of outright war conducted by Hamas. In light of this modern set of facts - throw the historical context out the windows - because it does not apply until Arab violence stops.

Does anyone rationally think that Israel is going to give up land that buffers and partially negates the violence waged against them on an everyday basis? This string of violent Infitadas threatens Israel everyday and some daydreamers think that Israel is just going to give up land and allow the violence to get closer to core body of Israelis? This is not logical thought - no country is going to give up a buffer space that keeps the daily constant violence flung against them many more kilometers away (if they have that buffer) - no matter which countries are involved and what the issues are argued. It is a nonsensical suggestion in light of daily violence conducted by the 'Palestenians' themselves and HAMAS.

Only when the 'Palestinians' formally announce a stop to the Infitada and HAMAS formally announces a end to acts of war and the vowed intent to destroy Israel can there be any 'engagement in 'realistic' options about Israel'. If the 'Palestinians and HAMAS do not announce these realities that I describe and stick to them - then what ever the UN does is just silly childlike movements of chess pieces on a board... the efforts will make no sense and again be wasted.

But people hate to admit that Charades are Charades - the UN most especially.

Thankyou for expanding on the point I made. If as part of a potential settlement Israel would be expected to relinquish any buffer zones they maintain for security then it would be helpful if the Palestinian media and leadership stopped with the endless incitement and desire for genocide fed to their population from cradle to grave. I have yet to see any call from the U.N or other would be mediators for this to happen.

The second issue is finding any impartial outside mediator, this dispute is so politicized that there is scarcely anyone left on Earth who has no dog in this fight. Tibet had it's own rulers, own nationality, currency, defined borders etc etc. When China annexed Tibet it soon became clear that nobody had the stomach to fight China directly. By moving Han Chinese into Tibet the Country is in effect being diluted out of existence. My point being that the Tibetans have a far more coherent grievance than the Palestinians and never had an option to be independent once China invaded. The focus, nay obsession, with Israel is due to the affront a Jewish state poses to Islam. It poses an equal affront to the ideology of the far left as well, who proceed then to tie themselves in pretzels mis-characterizing their hatred of Israel as moral concern for the well being of Palestinians, who as a consequence take no responsibility for their own situation.

If there is any hope I see ISIS may give common interests to Israel and here neighbors, as I stated before it is difficult to see where this may lead until the dust settles, but I hope for a regional settlement rather than though the UN or other outside entities trying to wrap up an agreement based on the mirage they are seeing.

[Ulysses G.]

We can debate all we like about phony histories, and whose deity has granted which religion more right to a lump of rocks.

That is not something that needs to be debated. You have been caught over and over again posting fabricated history and credible links have been provided to prove it (often from your OWN links that say the opposite of what you have claimed in your post). You continually post false information on this forum and that is a FACT. Do you really think that blatantly lying on a daily basis and being caught helps your cause?

[dexterm]

We can debate all we like about phony histories, and whose deity has granted which religion more right to a lump of rocks.

That is not something that needs to be debated. You have been caught over and over again posting fabricated history and credible links have been provided to prove it (often from your OWN links that say the opposite of what you have claimed in your post). You continually post false information on this forum and that is a FACT. Do you really think that blatantly lying on a daily basis and being caught helps your cause?

I invite forum readers to follow the credible links I always give where fact checks are concerned, and allow them to judge for themselves. That is the way freedom of speech works. The truth is sometimes uncomfortable.

[dexterm]

I can scarcely credit this topic warrants 220+ posts. As of now there are no realistic options because the Palestinians haven't even worked out who has the authority to negotiate on their behalves. The UN can't be considered an honest broker because within them is the large voting block of the OIC, who really decide what position the Palestinians can accept.Then we have ISIS, who are as much a threat to OIC members as to Israel.

Therefore there is little that can be achieved until the dust settles. Everyone knows this but can't let go of the fantasy that a settlement between Israel and Palestine would magically make Islam into a religion of peace. It will not end of story.

And to add to your concise and accurate conclusion, Despite all the historical discussion going on - on this thread and others, the common sense aspects of modern times are related to the fact that the 'Palestinians' - those Arabs in the neighborhood have been waging a violent Infitada or a series of violent Infitadas against Israel - since when - the early 1990's?

This incessant string of violent Infitada actions conducted by the 'Palestenians' against Israel goes on as an undercurrent not necessarily related to the other acts of outright war conducted by Hamas. In light of this modern set of facts - throw the historical context out the windows - because it does not apply until Arab violence stops.

Does anyone rationally think that Israel is going to give up land that buffers and partially negates the violence waged against them on an everyday basis? This string of violent Infitadas threatens Israel everyday and some daydreamers think that Israel is just going to give up land and allow the violence to get closer to core body of Israelis? This is not logical thought - no country is going to give up a buffer space that keeps the daily constant violence flung against them many more kilometers away (if they have that buffer) - no matter which countries are involved and what the issues are argued. It is a nonsensical suggestion in light of daily violence conducted by the 'Palestenians' themselves and HAMAS.

Only when the 'Palestinians' formally announce a stop to the Infitada and HAMAS formally announces a end to acts of war and the vowed intent to destroy Israel can there be any 'engagement in 'realistic' options about Israel'. If the 'Palestinians and HAMAS do not announce these realities that I describe and stick to them - then what ever the UN does is just silly childlike movements of chess pieces on a board... the efforts will make no sense and again be wasted.

But people hate to admit that Charades are Charades - the UN most especially.

Thankyou for expanding on the point I made. If as part of a potential settlement Israel would be expected to relinquish any buffer zones they maintain for security then it would be helpful if the Palestinian media and leadership stopped with the endless incitement and desire for genocide fed to their population from cradle to grave. I have yet to see any call from the U.N or other would be mediators for this to happen.

The second issue is finding any impartial outside mediator, this dispute is so politicized that there is scarcely anyone left on Earth who has no dog in this fight. Tibet had it's own rulers, own nationality, currency, defined borders etc etc. When China annexed Tibet it soon became clear that nobody had the stomach to fight China directly. By moving Han Chinese into Tibet the Country is in effect being diluted out of existence. My point being that the Tibetans have a far more coherent grievance than the Palestinians and never had an option to be independent once China invaded. The focus, nay obsession, with Israel is due to the affront a Jewish state poses to Islam. It poses an equal affront to the ideology of the far left as well, who proceed then to tie themselves in pretzels mis-characterizing their hatred of Israel as moral concern for the well being of Palestinians, who as a consequence take no responsibility for their own situation.

If there is any hope I see ISIS may give common interests to Israel and here neighbors, as I stated before it is difficult to see where this may lead until the dust settles, but I hope for a regional settlement rather than though the UN or other outside entities trying to wrap up an agreement based on the mirage they are seeing.

It doesn't seem to make sense if you are talking about a buffer zone against IS for Israel to have a one state solution as a realistic option annexing the West Bank, placing Jewish settlers in harm's way and the IDF on the front line. There would be no buffer zone. Israel becomes the front line if Jordan falls.

The Palestinians are no fans of IS as evidenced by their fighting them in Damascus refugee camps recently. They no more want IS occupying them than Israel. Wouldn't it be a more effective buffer for Israel to have Palestinians with their own state and a sense of ownership and defense against IS. Of course they would need the IDF as allies to help them defend against IS. How amazing that would be to have Palestinians fighting alongside the IDF because it was in their mutual best interest.

Maybe that would be a catalyst for cementing the peace.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dexterm

[ggold]

I can scarcely credit this topic warrants 220+ posts. As of now there are no realistic options because the Palestinians haven't even worked out who has the authority to negotiate on their behalves. The UN can't be considered an honest broker because within them is the large voting block of the OIC, who really decide what position the Palestinians can accept.Then we have ISIS, who are as much a threat to OIC members as to Israel.

Therefore there is little that can be achieved until the dust settles. Everyone knows this but can't let go of the fantasy that a settlement between Israel and Palestine would magically make Islam into a religion of peace. It will not end of story.

And to add to your concise and accurate conclusion, Despite all the historical discussion going on - on this thread and others, the common sense aspects of modern times are related to the fact that the 'Palestinians' - those Arabs in the neighborhood have been waging a violent Infitada or a series of violent Infitadas against Israel - since when - the early 1990's?

This incessant string of violent Infitada actions conducted by the 'Palestenians' against Israel goes on as an undercurrent not necessarily related to the other acts of outright war conducted by Hamas. In light of this modern set of facts - throw the historical context out the windows - because it does not apply until Arab violence stops.

Does anyone rationally think that Israel is going to give up land that buffers and partially negates the violence waged against them on an everyday basis? This string of violent Infitadas threatens Israel everyday and some daydreamers think that Israel is just going to give up land and allow the violence to get closer to core body of Israelis? This is not logical thought - no country is going to give up a buffer space that keeps the daily constant violence flung against them many more kilometers away (if they have that buffer) - no matter which countries are involved and what the issues are argued. It is a nonsensical suggestion in light of daily violence conducted by the 'Palestenians' themselves and HAMAS.

Only when the 'Palestinians' formally announce a stop to the Infitada and HAMAS formally announces a end to acts of war and the vowed intent to destroy Israel can there be any 'engagement in 'realistic' options about Israel'. If the 'Palestinians and HAMAS do not announce these realities that I describe and stick to them - then what ever the UN does is just silly childlike movements of chess pieces on a board... the efforts will make no sense and again be wasted.

But people hate to admit that Charades are Charades - the UN most especially.

Thankyou for expanding on the point I made. If as part of a potential settlement Israel would be expected to relinquish any buffer zones they maintain for security then it would be helpful if the Palestinian media and leadership stopped with the endless incitement and desire for genocide fed to their population from cradle to grave. I have yet to see any call from the U.N or other would be mediators for this to happen.

The second issue is finding any impartial outside mediator, this dispute is so politicized that there is scarcely anyone left on Earth who has no dog in this fight. Tibet had it's own rulers, own nationality, currency, defined borders etc etc. When China annexed Tibet it soon became clear that nobody had the stomach to fight China directly. By moving Han Chinese into Tibet the Country is in effect being diluted out of existence. My point being that the Tibetans have a far more coherent grievance than the Palestinians and never had an option to be independent once China invaded. The focus, nay obsession, with Israel is due to the affront a Jewish state poses to Islam. It poses an equal affront to the ideology of the far left as well, who proceed then to tie themselves in pretzels mis-characterizing their hatred of Israel as moral concern for the well being of Palestinians, who as a consequence take no responsibility for their own situation.

If there is any hope I see ISIS may give common interests to Israel and here neighbors, as I stated before it is difficult to see where this may lead until the dust settles, but I hope for a regional settlement rather than though the UN or other outside entities trying to wrap up an agreement based on the mirage they are seeing.

It doesn't seem to make sense if you are talking about a buffer zone against IS for Israel to have a one state solution as a realistic option annexing the West Bank, placing Jewish settlers in harm's way and the IDF on the front line. There would be no buffer zone. Israel becomes the front line if Jordan falls.

The Palestinians are no fans of IS as evidenced by their fighting them in Damascus refugee camps recently. They no more want IS occupying them than Israel. Wouldn't it be a more effective buffer for Israel to have Palestinians with their own state and a sense of ownership and defense against IS. Of course they would need the IDF as allies to help them defend against IS. How amazing that would be to have Palestinians fighting alongside the IDF because it was in their mutual best interest.

Maybe that would be a catalyst for cementing the peace.

Wouldn't it be a more effective buffer for Israel to have Palestinians with their own state and a sense of ownership

Some buffer that would be. THe PA talk about stopping security co-operation with Israel. They never will, Because Abbas Needs Israel as backup or he wouldn't last five minutes. He has his hands full with Hamas.

The Palestinians weren't fighting ISIS in Damascus, they were overrun and their dear leader didn't send anyone to help his fellow Arabs.

Still carry on with the fantasies, very entertaining for a Sunday morning.

Edited May 31, 2015 by ggold

[Asheron]

It doesn't seem to make sense if you are talking about a buffer zone against IS for Israel to have a one state solution as a realistic option annexing the West Bank, placing Jewish settlers in harm's way and the IDF on the front line. There would be no buffer zone. Israel becomes the front line if Jordan falls.

The Palestinians are no fans of IS as evidenced by their fighting them in Damascus refugee camps recently. They no more want IS occupying them than Israel. Wouldn't it be a more effective buffer for Israel to have Palestinians with their own state and a sense of ownership and defense against IS. Of course they would need the IDF as allies to help them defend against IS. How amazing that would be to have Palestinians fighting alongside the IDF because it was in their mutual best interest.

Maybe that would be a catalyst for cementing the peace.

Unlike the rag-tag hillbilly "armies" currently fighting against IS Israel wouldn't have much trouble defending Israel from them. And there will never be peace between two groups when the other group has "divine" right to wipe jews off this planet.

[dexterm]

Just a thought. I hope IDF think tanks are running "What if?" scenarios too and are realistically planning for the future, instead of head in the sand muddling through with the status quo.

I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing, but who knows, they may one day form part of the realistic option jigsaw, and be sitting right on Israel's borders.

Palestinians and Israel will be geographic neighbors for eternity, so I'd be thinking of ways to make them my friends rather than maintaining them as my enemies.

History is full of too little too late and 20:20 hindsight.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dexterm

[ggold]

Just a thought. I hope IDF think tanks are running "What if?" scenarios too and are realistically planning for the future, instead of head in the sand muddling through with the status quo.

I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing, but who knows, they may one day form part of the realistic option jigsaw, and be sitting right on Israel's borders.

Palestinians and Israel will be geographic neighbors for eternity, so I'd be thinking of ways to make them my friends rather than maintaining them as my enemies.

History is full of too little too late and 20:20 hindsight.

Not really, the natural course of events would be that the Palestinians become part of Jordan. Why should Israel be resposible for the economic wellbeing of a Palestinian state. If they the Arabs can't suport themselves then they are not really capable forming a nation state.

You should abandon any wet dreams of Isis achieving what Hamas Fatah PLO PA or Arab countries couldn't achieved. Israel is here to stay. It's going to take a long few years for the Arabs to destroy ISIS or ISIS the Arab world.

If ISIS took over the West Bank (if only) then you can forget about a Palestinian homeland Jordan and Israel would not stand by and allow that to happen. Abbas is about to be overtaken by History and so will the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian.

All Israel has to do is watch and wait.

In your wish for ISIS to be on the boarder with Israel, you may have forgotten that this would displace a lot of Arabs, with others losing their heads. So where will all these displaced people go, Israels boarders will be closed to them. So they only have Jordan as a way of getting away from ISIS. More refugee camps created by Arabs for Arabs. Now that is a wet dream to have!

ISIS would be doing Israel a fovour.

Edited May 31, 2015 by ggold

[dexterm]

Just a thought. I hope IDF think tanks are running "What if?" scenarios too and are realistically planning for the future, instead of head in the sand muddling through with the status quo.

I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing, but who knows, they may one day form part of the realistic option jigsaw, and be sitting right on Israel's borders.

Palestinians and Israel will be geographic neighbors for eternity, so I'd be thinking of ways to make them my friends rather than maintaining them as my enemies.

History is full of too little too late and 20:20 hindsight.

Not really, the natural course of events would be that the Palestinians become part of Jordan. Why should Israel be resposible for the economic wellbeing of a Palestinian state. If they the Arabs can't suport themselves then they are not really capable forming a nation state.

You should abandon any wet dreams of Isis achieving what Hamas Fatah PLO PA or Arab countries couldn't achieved. Israel is here to stay. It's going to take a long few years for the Arabs to destroy ISIS or ISIS the Arab world.

If ISIS took over the West Bank (if only) then you can forget about a Palestinian homeland Jordan and Israel would not stand by and allow that to happen. Abbas is about to be overtaken by History and so will the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian.

All Israel has to do is watch and wait.

In your wish for ISIS to be on the boarder with Israel, you may have forgotten that this would displace a lot of Arabs, with others losing their heads. So where will all these displaced people go, Israels boarders will be closed to them. So they only have Jordan as a way of getting away from ISIS. More refugee camps created by Arabs for Arabs. Now that is a wet dream to have!

ISIS would be doing Israel a fovour.

I wrote and sincerely meant "I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing". As I have said in other threads IMO they are monsters in the way they treat women, their captives, and their distorted interpretation of Islam. So I have no idea where your fantasies are coming from.

A Palestinian state given viable land area (67 borders) could stand on its own 2 feet apart from defense, which I am sure Israel quite sensibly would not allow anyway for decades of trust building to come. IDF on the Jordan River border I am almost 100% certain will be a precondition of any one or two state solution. No doubt vetted Palestinians would be welcome guest workers in Israel, exactly as they are now.

Palestinians seek their own self determination and don't wish to be dumped on Jordan who wouldn't accept them anyway, nor would the world community tolerate such ethnic cleansing, nor would Palestinians want to be there anyway if Jordan is taken over by IS.

More refugee camps created by Arabs for Arabs. Now that is a wet dream to have!

You appear to be delighting at the prospect of more unnecessary human suffering. I will allow forum readers to judge that.

I don't want to drift off topic discussing IS..we have other threads for that. I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options. And it may actually be in Israel's interests to have a prosperous Palestinian state living next door as a buffer, rather than a disgruntled occupied population, and with the UN and global community still on your back about the illegality of it all.

Much better to have the whole world onside to fight IS.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dexterm

[ggold]

Just a thought. I hope IDF think tanks are running "What if?" scenarios too and are realistically planning for the future, instead of head in the sand muddling through with the status quo.

I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing, but who knows, they may one day form part of the realistic option jigsaw, and be sitting right on Israel's borders.

Palestinians and Israel will be geographic neighbors for eternity, so I'd be thinking of ways to make them my friends rather than maintaining them as my enemies.

History is full of too little too late and 20:20 hindsight.

Not really, the natural course of events would be that the Palestinians become part of Jordan. Why should Israel be resposible for the economic wellbeing of a Palestinian state. If they the Arabs can't suport themselves then they are not really capable forming a nation state.

You should abandon any wet dreams of Isis achieving what Hamas Fatah PLO PA or Arab countries couldn't achieved. Israel is here to stay. It's going to take a long few years for the Arabs to destroy ISIS or ISIS the Arab world.

If ISIS took over the West Bank (if only) then you can forget about a Palestinian homeland Jordan and Israel would not stand by and allow that to happen. Abbas is about to be overtaken by History and so will the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian.

All Israel has to do is watch and wait.

In your wish for ISIS to be on the boarder with Israel, you may have forgotten that this would displace a lot of Arabs, with others losing their heads. So where will all these displaced people go, Israels boarders will be closed to them. So they only have Jordan as a way of getting away from ISIS. More refugee camps created by Arabs for Arabs. Now that is a wet dream to have!

ISIS would be doing Israel a fovour.

I wrote and sincerely meant "I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing". As I have said in other threads IMO they are monsters in the way they treat women, their captives, and their distorted interpretation of Islam. So I have no idea where your fantasies are coming from.

A Palestinian state given viable land area (67 borders) could stand on its own 2 feet apart from defense, which I am sure Israel quite sensibly would not allow anyway for decades of trust building to come. IDF on the Jordan River border I am almost 100% certain will be a precondition of any one or two state solution. No doubt vetted Palestinians would be welcome guest workers in Israel, exactly as they are now.

Palestinians seek their own self determination and don't wish to be dumped on Jordan who wouldn't accept them anyway, nor would the world community tolerate such ethnic cleansing, nor would Palestinians want to be there anyway if Jordan is taken over by IS.

More refugee camps created by Arabs for Arabs. Now that is a wet dream to have!

You appear to be delighting at the prospect of more unnecessary human suffering. I will allow forum readers to judge that.

I don't want to drift off topic discussing IS..we have other threads for that. I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options. And it may actually be in Israel's interests to have a prosperous Palestinian state living next door as a buffer, rather than a disgruntled occupied population, and with the UN and global community still on your back about the illegality of it all.

Much better to have the whole world onside to fight IS.

You appear to be delighting at the prospect of more unnecessary human suffering.

It's not me but ISIS who delight in Human suffering. The irony is Hamas PA Fatah Claim to love death as much as Israel loves life. ISIS can Help them with that. Forgive me If I don't lose any sleep on Arab killing Arab. They have been doing it for centuries and will do it for centuries to come!

And Again with the contradiction.

"I wrote and sincerely meant "I hope the barbaric IS are crushed by allied bombing". As I have said in other threads IMO they are monsters in the way they treat women, their captives, and their distorted interpretation of Islam"

"I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options."

For that to happen they would have wiped out Abbas and his cohorts and beheading any one else they feel like. Which means, they would have over powered Jordan to get close to Israel. Seems you wish for human suffering so ISIS can cause problems for Israel?

Either way, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim you want to see them destroyed and be part of any realist solution for the Arabs in Israel. Totaly unrealistic IMO.

[dexterm]

ggold, (thread full sorry)

You seem to be unfamiliar with the geography of the West Bank. I am not quite sure how you envisage Abbas and his cohorts getting beheaded by IS in Ramallah with IS having somehow sneaked past the IDF based in the Jordan Valley to invade a binational Palestine?

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally retreat behind its wall, summon home some of the remote settlers, and call everything else Jordan or Palestine or whatever. Well, that would be silly. Because if you do that you may as well put in the extra miles and negotiate a proper 2 state solution with an internationally recognized border for Israel, and all the appropriate security checks and balances, and all the enormous economic benefits too.

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally annex the entire West Bank and then load 2.5 million Palestinians against their will into trucks to dump them on the East Bank of the Jordan River, and call them Jordanians? Can you realistically imagine the world allowing that to happen and Israel having a hope in hell of a future?

All of your ideas are fantasies. But at least you have revealed where you stand. We know now what you would like to happen.

I am offering something that is achievable and acceptable to the world community, would grant Israel a secure permanent internationally recognized peace and an extremely rosy future.That peace agreement has almost happened twice already in 2000 and 2006. That's why I regard it as a realistic option if the Zionist Union gains power in a future election. They almost made it this year. Isaac Herzog can see the sense of a 2 state solution allowing the two peoples to live separately. That's why they call themselves the Zionist Union...they offer the only hope of a state with a Jewish character that the world will accept. Lets hope more Israelis see sense next time and think the whole thing through.

It may be what you would like to happen. but your plan of forcibly transferring 2.5 million Palestinians against their will would seal Israel's ultimate demise because of its illegality and the world's sheer abhorrence.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dexterm

[ggold]

ggold, (thread full sorry)

You seem to be unfamiliar with the geography of the West Bank. I am not quite sure how you envisage Abbas and his cohorts getting beheaded by IS in Ramallah with IS having somehow sneaked past the IDF based in the Jordan Valley to invade a binational Palestine?

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally retreat behind its wall, summon home some of the remote settlers, and call everything else Jordan or Palestine or whatever. Well, that would be silly. Because if you do that you may as well put in the extra miles and negotiate a proper 2 state solution with an internationally recognized border for Israel, and all the appropriate security checks and balances, and all the enormous economic benefits too.

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally annex the entire West Bank and then load 2.5 million Palestinians against their will into trucks to dump them on the East Bank of the Jordan River, and call them Jordanians? Can you realistically imagine the world allowing that to happen and Israel having a hope in hell of a future?

All of your ideas are fantasies. But at least you have revealed where you stand. We know now what you would like to happen.

I am offering something that is achievable and acceptable to the world community, would grant Israel a secure permanent internationally recognized peace and an extremely rosy future.That peace agreement has almost happened twice already in 2000 and 2006. That's why I regard it as a realistic option if the Zionist Union gains power in a future election. They almost made it this year. Isaac Herzog can see the sense of a 2 state solution allowing the two peoples to live separately. That's why they call themselves the Zionist Union...they offer the only hope of a state with a Jewish character that the world will accept. Lets hope more Israelis see sense next time and think the whole thing through.

It may be what you would like to happen. but your plan of forcibly transferring 2.5 million Palestinians against their will would seal Israel's ultimate demise because of its illegality and the world's sheer abhorrence.

Thank you for omitting my reply so you can twist it to your own narative and puting words into my mouth with your lies!

edited to say:-

It is obvious you think ISIS could do what Hamas or even Hezbolah couldn't do, Why else make the comment

"I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options."?

having been show what would need to happen for that to come true, realising what a silly fantasy it is you then proceed to with this nonsense.

Very underhand IMO.

Edited May 31, 2015 by ggold

[dexterm]

ggold, (thread full sorry)

You seem to be unfamiliar with the geography of the West Bank. I am not quite sure how you envisage Abbas and his cohorts getting beheaded by IS in Ramallah with IS having somehow sneaked past the IDF based in the Jordan Valley to invade a binational Palestine?

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally retreat behind its wall, summon home some of the remote settlers, and call everything else Jordan or Palestine or whatever. Well, that would be silly. Because if you do that you may as well put in the extra miles and negotiate a proper 2 state solution with an internationally recognized border for Israel, and all the appropriate security checks and balances, and all the enormous economic benefits too.

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally annex the entire West Bank and then load 2.5 million Palestinians against their will into trucks to dump them on the East Bank of the Jordan River, and call them Jordanians? Can you realistically imagine the world allowing that to happen and Israel having a hope in hell of a future?

All of your ideas are fantasies. But at least you have revealed where you stand. We know now what you would like to happen.

I am offering something that is achievable and acceptable to the world community, would grant Israel a secure permanent internationally recognized peace and an extremely rosy future.That peace agreement has almost happened twice already in 2000 and 2006. That's why I regard it as a realistic option if the Zionist Union gains power in a future election. They almost made it this year. Isaac Herzog can see the sense of a 2 state solution allowing the two peoples to live separately. That's why they call themselves the Zionist Union...they offer the only hope of a state with a Jewish character that the world will accept. Lets hope more Israelis see sense next time and think the whole thing through.

It may be what you would like to happen. but your plan of forcibly transferring 2.5 million Palestinians against their will would seal Israel's ultimate demise because of its illegality and the world's sheer abhorrence.

Thank you for omitting my reply so you can twist it to your own narative and puting words into my mouth with your lies!

edited to say:-

It is obvious you think ISIS could do what Hamas or even Hezbolah couldn't do, Why else make the comment

"I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options."?

having been show what would need to happen for that to come true, realising what a silly fantasy it is you then proceed to with this nonsense.

Very underhand IMO.

Not sure of the forum rules when a mini thread is full. I have tried in the past to delete a post to make room and got into a mess. So I tried as politely as possible (with an apology) to address my response to the previous poster (ggold,...), and because there was absolutely no other posts in between your last and my response a mere half inch below, I can't see a major problem in the continuity.

ggold wrote,...

, the natural course of events would be that the Palestinians become part of Jordan.

I am still at a loss to understand how in your realistic option for Israel's future the actual logistics of how 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians somehow find themselves in Jordan. Perhaps you could clarify.

Do they volunteer by getting on planes to Amman?

Does Israel unilaterally move the border to its barrier wall?

Does Israel unilaterally move the border to the Jordan River, then truck the 2.5 million Palestinians it doesn't want and dump them east of the Jordan River?

Edited June 1, 2015 by dexterm

[ABCer]

It would've been disgusting if only it wouldn't be so common -

nearly 240 posts and not one of them even remotely reflecting the OP:

UN says will engage Israel on "realistic options" for talks.

All we have is a bunch of emotionally stable Haters of Israel forever locked horns with equally emotionally stable Lovers of Israel

their posts freely interspersed with generous "likes" traditionally given within the two camps by relevant and predictable cheer leaders.

God Almighty! With so much energy wasted on both sides I don't understand

A. How come Israelis didn't conquer the World yet?

B. How come the Muslims didn't manage the same (YET)?

C. When our Moderators will get sick of this pandemonium?

This Forum is for having fun and showing our opinions.

Where is the fun?

Where are new thoughts/opinions?

Where are UN 'realistic options'?

Oh, yes.... In case somebody has any doubts, - I am unconditionally for Israel.

Edited June 1, 2015 by ABCer

[ggold]

ggold, (thread full sorry)

You seem to be unfamiliar with the geography of the West Bank. I am not quite sure how you envisage Abbas and his cohorts getting beheaded by IS in Ramallah with IS having somehow sneaked past the IDF based in the Jordan Valley to invade a binational Palestine?

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally retreat behind its wall, summon home some of the remote settlers, and call everything else Jordan or Palestine or whatever. Well, that would be silly. Because if you do that you may as well put in the extra miles and negotiate a proper 2 state solution with an internationally recognized border for Israel, and all the appropriate security checks and balances, and all the enormous economic benefits too.

Or is your realistic option ? for Israel to unilaterally annex the entire West Bank and then load 2.5 million Palestinians against their will into trucks to dump them on the East Bank of the Jordan River, and call them Jordanians? Can you realistically imagine the world allowing that to happen and Israel having a hope in hell of a future?

All of your ideas are fantasies. But at least you have revealed where you stand. We know now what you would like to happen.

I am offering something that is achievable and acceptable to the world community, would grant Israel a secure permanent internationally recognized peace and an extremely rosy future.That peace agreement has almost happened twice already in 2000 and 2006. That's why I regard it as a realistic option if the Zionist Union gains power in a future election. They almost made it this year. Isaac Herzog can see the sense of a 2 state solution allowing the two peoples to live separately. That's why they call themselves the Zionist Union...they offer the only hope of a state with a Jewish character that the world will accept. Lets hope more Israelis see sense next time and think the whole thing through.

It may be what you would like to happen. but your plan of forcibly transferring 2.5 million Palestinians against their will would seal Israel's ultimate demise because of its illegality and the world's sheer abhorrence.

Thank you for omitting my reply so you can twist it to your own narative and puting words into my mouth with your lies!

edited to say:-

It is obvious you think ISIS could do what Hamas or even Hezbolah couldn't do, Why else make the comment

"I am simply trying to say that one day they may form part of the jigsaw of realistic options."?

having been show what would need to happen for that to come true, realising what a silly fantasy it is you then proceed to with this nonsense.

Very underhand IMO.

Not sure of the forum rules when a mini thread is full. I have tried in the past to delete a post to make room and got into a mess. So I tried as politely as possible (with an apology) to address my response to the previous poster (ggold,...), and because there was absolutely no other posts in between your last and my response a mere half inch below, I can't see a major problem in the continuity.

ggold wrote,...

, the natural course of events would be that the Palestinians become part of Jordan.

I am still at a loss to understand how in your realistic option for Israel's future the actual logistics of how 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians somehow find themselves in Jordan. Perhaps you could clarify.

Do they volunteer by getting on planes to Amman?

Does Israel unilaterally move the border to its barrier wall?

Does Israel unilaterally move the border to the Jordan River, then truck the 2.5 million Palestinians it doesn't want and dump them east of the Jordan River?

You obviously missed the part where I said if a Palestinian state were to become a failed state! But please you carry on twisting it to your narative.

I am surprised that your imagination extends to ISIS being on Israels boarder, But when it comes to the idea of Jordan and Israel dividing up the West Bank your imagination fails to come up with any idea other than trucking 2.5 million people somewhere?

But your narative is one of ethnic cleansing and genocide, depending on the OP just surprised you didn't use those words this time?

[Asheron]

It would've been disgusting if only it wouldn't be so common -

nearly 240 posts and not one of them even remotely reflecting the OP:

UN says will engage Israel on "realistic options" for talks.

All we have is a bunch of emotionally stable Haters of Israel forever locked horns with equally emotionally stable Lovers of Israel

their posts freely interspersed with generous "likes" traditionally given within the two camps by relevant and predictable cheer leaders.

God Almighty! With so much energy wasted on both sides I don't understand

A. How come Israelis didn't conquer the World yet?

B. How come the Muslims didn't manage the same (YET)?

C. When our Moderators will get sick of this pandemonium?

This Forum is for having fun and showing our opinions.

Where is the fun?

Where are new thoughts/opinions?

Where are UN 'realistic options'?

Oh, yes.... In case somebody has any doubts, - I am unconditionally for Israel.

A: because they aren't muslims and don't have a "dream" of a world wide caliphate.

B: because after around end of 1600's (basicly after siege of Vienna) muslims have sucked, like a looooooot, when it comes to war.

C: this forums pandemonium is awesome sauce!

"Where is the fun". I think most people that hang around any forum long perod of times have some kind of masochistic tendencies

"Where are new thoughts/opinions". Pfffft, old school is the right school!

"Where are UN realistic options". I think Saudiarabia, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, kind of Syria, kind of Al-Nusra, kind of ISIS and Iran have some "ideas" and "options" for Israel.

Oh yeah, and i also unconditionally support Israel as i would feel dirty supporting the barbarians surrounding Israel.

[dexterm]

ggold,(sorry thread full)

You obviously missed the part where I said if a Palestinian state were to become a failed state! But please you carry on twisting it to your narative.

I am surprised that your imagination extends to ISIS being on Israels boarder, But when it comes to the idea of Jordan and Israel dividing up the West Bank your imagination fails to come up with any idea other than trucking 2.5 million people somewhere?

But your narative is one of ethnic cleansing and genocide, depending on the OP just surprised you didn't use those words this time?

I am surprised that your imagination extends to ISIS being on Israels boarder,

... that's because they already are very close to Golan.

http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-approaches-israel-islamic-state-loyalists-thwarted-syrian-rebels-along-golan-1931033

And my hope is that Israel will obliterate them if they are crazy enough to attack.

But when it comes to the idea of Jordan and Israel dividing up the West Bank your imagination fails to come up with any idea other than trucking 2.5 million people somewhere?

...IMO there is only one realistic option if Israel is to survive as a nation with a predominantly Jewish character: a just two state solution. That's the one that isaac Herzog of the Zionist Union

Create a Palestinian State to Secure Israel and Its Citizens, Says Herzog http://europe.newsweek.com/create-palestinian-state-secure-israel-and-its-citizens-says-herzog-314302

as well as the US, the EU and the UN support. It would be based roughly on the Arab Peace Summit proposals of 2002 and 2007, and Ehud Barak's 2000 plan and Olmert's 2008 plan. We have come very close to it as recently as 7 years ago. So how realistic is that?

Whereas, most of the current Netanyahu Cabinet will not even entertain a 2 state solution as a realistic option, nor will they consider granting 2.5 million Palestinians currently under occupation equal citizenship in a one state solution.So what do you do with the elephant in the room...the 2.5 million Palestinians?

The two-state solution is dead

"Just ask Israel's own ministers."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/05/state-palestine-israel-zionist-150527070943455.html

So we have your idea: give them to Jordan. My question is how is Israel unilaterally and realistically going to make Palestinians want to be Jordanian citizens, when they don't want Jordan; Jordan doesn't want them, and the world community supports a better idea...their self determination in an independent Palestine? What are you going to do to make your suggestion remotely attractive or realistic?

Edited June 1, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

It would've been disgusting if only it wouldn't be so common -

nearly 240 posts and not one of them even remotely reflecting the OP:

UN says will engage Israel on "realistic options" for talks.

All we have is a bunch of emotionally stable Haters of Israel forever locked horns with equally emotionally stable Lovers of Israel

their posts freely interspersed with generous "likes" traditionally given within the two camps by relevant and predictable cheer leaders.

God Almighty! With so much energy wasted on both sides I don't understand

A. How come Israelis didn't conquer the World yet?

B. How come the Muslims didn't manage the same (YET)?

C. When our Moderators will get sick of this pandemonium?

This Forum is for having fun and showing our opinions.

Where is the fun?

Where are new thoughts/opinions?

Where are UN 'realistic options'?

Oh, yes.... In case somebody has any doubts, - I am unconditionally for Israel.

IMHO I find this thread very stimulating and I have tried to stay on topic and polite throughout, because I am very interested in the subject ...the realistic endgame of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Every conflict eventually finishes and I think we are very close to the end of this particular one after 100 years.

Through delving and digging I think both interested sides are now clearer as to what the issues are.

There are of course plenty of other threads for people who aren't interested.

You say you support Israel unconditionally. I am curious to know what your realistic option for a permanent secure peace for Israel is.

Edited June 1, 2015 by dexterm