Found the perfect bike for people who love Thailand

[moonoi]

The GT Grade Tiagra, comes as standard with Thai flags all over it :-) and cheaper than a Look 695 Thai flag edition, even if you have to pay all the import costs yourself ;-)

Review here http://road.cc/content/news/152195-just-gt-grade-alloy-tiagra

Edited May 20, 2015 by moonoi

[T_Dog]

Put some 2.5 inch tires on it, a front shock, hydraulic disk brakes, and it would indeed be perfect!

[moonoi]

Put some 2.5 inch tires on it, a front shock, hydraulic disk brakes, and it would indeed be perfect!

Well it can go up to 35mm, not too shabby for a gravel grinder.

Next you'll be telling me you want flat bars and a dropper seatpost ;-)

[h90]

Nice but I would like normal brakes and the cables inside the frame....And Shimano 105

[CNXBKKMAN]

That would be a great all round bike for Thailand. But its missing rear rack braze ons for when you decide to do a little thai tour. I would have triple chainset for the steep hills or for when you are totally worn out and need the low gears even for the not so steeps hills.

h90 its hard not to have disc brakes nowadays on a new bike. Disc brakes are everywhere. I would be happy with cable operated cantilevers though.

[moonoi]

That would be a great all round bike for Thailand. But its missing rear rack braze ons for when you decide to do a little thai tour. I would have triple chainset for the steep hills or for when you are totally worn out and need the low gears even for the not so steeps hills.

h90 its hard not to have disc brakes nowadays on a new bike. Disc brakes are everywhere. I would be happy with cable operated cantilevers though.

According to the article there are rack and mudguard eyelets for touring.

Don't really see triple chain sets on road bikes these days, mostly just compact or semi-compact.

[chiangmaiexpat]

Do I need a permanent residence permit for that?

[h90]

That would be a great all round bike for Thailand. But its missing rear rack braze ons for when you decide to do a little thai tour. I would have triple chainset for the steep hills or for when you are totally worn out and need the low gears even for the not so steeps hills.

h90 its hard not to have disc brakes nowadays on a new bike. Disc brakes are everywhere. I would be happy with cable operated cantilevers though.

I fail to see the advantage of disc brakes beside extreme downhill racing.

Even with rain the normal brakes perform and don't bring torque on the wheels/spokes.

And they must be more heavy as well.

With normal, even cheap brakes you can brake till the back wheel lifts up or the front wheel slides, just need to be pressed harder in rain but still works. in my opinion it is a solution for a not existing problem.

[CNXBKKMAN]

Its all about selling bikes and marketing. The disc brakes seem to be moving onto racing bikes now. I dont think they will become established though. The small rotor gets very hot on a mountain descent. Forks have to be beefed up. It all weighs more than the current brakes. Racers like to slow down rather than come to a sudden stop. How easy is it to do a fast wheel change during the TDF?

Remember Shimano Biopace chainsets in the late 80's early 90's. Totally discarded after a couple of years but for those few years it was the latest thing and helped sell more bikes. Money was made even if it wasnt an improvement.

[moonoi]

Disc brakes will be trialled in the UCI World Tour this year. It's not just about braking power, but feel and modulation is better.

There is a safety side too, as the disc brakes don't heat up the rim, there is less like a chance for tubular tyres to become so hot they detach from the rim, or puncture, as happened in the Tour of Dubai earlier this year.

As for weight, the extra strength needed in the frame is around 50g and because you no longer need a brake track on the rim, you save weight there as well, overall the difference is negligible.

For the average user the benefit is you don't have to throw away your wheelset when the brake track wears out, just replace the rotor.

Just from a personal experience, I've come down khao yai on both my hydraulic disc brake equipped MTB and by old caliper equipped road bike. On the road bike I lost a lot of breaking performance around halfway down as the brake track got too hot, a very scary feeling when you pull the lever all the way to the bars and your change in velocity is not very much. Braking power returned once the rims had cooled down, however I didn't experience the same with the disc brakes on my MTB.

I don't think this is just to try and sell more bikes, disc brakes (done properly) have a real tangible benefit, more than just better braking performance in the wet).

I seem to remember mountain bikers throwing up similar issues about why existing brakes were good enough, when disc brakes were first introduced in that application many moons ago, and now look at them ;-)

Edited May 22, 2015 by moonoi

[T_Dog]

Hydraulic disk brakes are virtually maintenance free with no fiddling as with rim brakes. Just throw in new pads when they wear out which is a 5 minute job. My Hope hydraulic brakes are 11 years old and work like new.

[impulse]

I'd go down to the local sticker store and buy some Thai flag stickers before I'd buy a bike and import it...

But I'm cheap that way.

[h90]

Disc brakes will be trialled in the UCI World Tour this year. It's not just about braking power, but feel and modulation is better.

There is a safety side too, as the disc brakes don't heat up the rim, there is less like a chance for tubular tyres to become so hot they detach from the rim, or puncture, as happened in the Tour of Dubai earlier this year.

As for weight, the extra strength needed in the frame is around 50g and because you no longer need a brake track on the rim, you save weight there as well, overall the difference is negligible.

For the average user the benefit is you don't have to throw away your wheelset when the brake track wears out, just replace the rotor.

Just from a personal experience, I've come down khao yai on both my hydraulic disc brake equipped MTB and by old caliper equipped road bike. On the road bike I lost a lot of breaking performance around halfway down as the brake track got too hot, a very scary feeling when you pull the lever all the way to the bars and your change in velocity is not very much. Braking power returned once the rims had cooled down, however I didn't experience the same with the disc brakes on my MTB.

I don't think this is just to try and sell more bikes, disc brakes (done properly) have a real tangible benefit, more than just better braking performance in the wet).

I seem to remember mountain bikers throwing up similar issues about why existing brakes were good enough, when disc brakes were first introduced in that application many moons ago, and now look at them ;-)

I doubt that, the disc has weight, you need more spokes. tubular tyres aren't very common anymore. If it get hot and lost so much performance, you have the wrong pads. I had never that issue in the alps, sometimes I got a slight burned smell but the performance was still OK. I understand that the heat might be a problem on carbon rims, but adding the disc brake and the more, longer spokes you loose all the weight advantage.

The only advantage I see is to get rid of the wear on the rim, specially in dirty environment.

[h90]

Its all about selling bikes and marketing. The disc brakes seem to be moving onto racing bikes now. I dont think they will become established though. The small rotor gets very hot on a mountain descent. Forks have to be beefed up. It all weighs more than the current brakes. Racers like to slow down rather than come to a sudden stop. How easy is it to do a fast wheel change during the TDF?

Remember Shimano Biopace chainsets in the late 80's early 90's. Totally discarded after a couple of years but for those few years it was the latest thing and helped sell more bikes. Money was made even if it wasnt an improvement.

yes I think it is all marketing.......Shimano Biopace, I always wanted to try it, the arguments sounded good to me and now I can not find it anywhere

[moonoi]

Disc brakes will be trialled in the UCI World Tour this year. It's not just about braking power, but feel and modulation is better.

There is a safety side too, as the disc brakes don't heat up the rim, there is less like a chance for tubular tyres to become so hot they detach from the rim, or puncture, as happened in the Tour of Dubai earlier this year.

As for weight, the extra strength needed in the frame is around 50g and because you no longer need a brake track on the rim, you save weight there as well, overall the difference is negligible.

For the average user the benefit is you don't have to throw away your wheelset when the brake track wears out, just replace the rotor.

Just from a personal experience, I've come down khao yai on both my hydraulic disc brake equipped MTB and by old caliper equipped road bike. On the road bike I lost a lot of breaking performance around halfway down as the brake track got too hot, a very scary feeling when you pull the lever all the way to the bars and your change in velocity is not very much. Braking power returned once the rims had cooled down, however I didn't experience the same with the disc brakes on my MTB.

I don't think this is just to try and sell more bikes, disc brakes (done properly) have a real tangible benefit, more than just better braking performance in the wet).

I seem to remember mountain bikers throwing up similar issues about why existing brakes were good enough, when disc brakes were first introduced in that application many moons ago, and now look at them ;-)

I doubt that, the disc has weight, you need more spokes. tubular tyres aren't very common anymore. If it get hot and lost so much performance, you have the wrong pads. I had never that issue in the alps, sometimes I got a slight burned smell but the performance was still OK. I understand that the heat might be a problem on carbon rims, but adding the disc brake and the more, longer spokes you loose all the weight advantage.

The only advantage I see is to get rid of the wear on the rim, specially in dirty environment.

My mistake it was the Tour of Oman, you can read about what happens with heat and both tubular/clincher tyres here, if you're interested http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/02/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-hot-tires-rims-oman_361634

With regards to weight, let's take the Zipp 303 as an example:

Top Features of the Zipp 303 Firecrest Carbon Tubular Disc Brake Wheelset

Firecrest Tubular Carbon Rim

Weight: 1435g

Hub Used: 88 Disc Front / 188 Disc Brake Rear

Hub Width: 100mm Front / 135mm Rear

Rim Depth: 45mm

Brake Track Width (centre): 26.40mm

Max Width: 28.50mm

Spoke Count: 24 Front, Rear

Spoke Length Non-Drive: 264mm

Spoke Pattern Non-Drive: Virtual 3 cross

Spoke Pattern Drive: Virtual 3 cross

Spoke Length Drive: 262mm

Spoke Pattern Front: 2 Cross

Spoke Length Front: 256mm

Top Features of the Zipp 303 Firecrest Carbon Tubular Wheelset

Firecrest Tubular Carbon Rim

Weight: 1310g

Hub Used: 88 Front / 188/V9 Rear

Rim Depth: 45mm

Brake Track Width (centre): 26.45mm

Max Width: 28.50mm

Nominal Tyre Bed Width: 17.98mm

Spoke Count: 18 Front / 24 Rear

Spoke Length Non-Drive: 252mm

Spoke Pattern Non-Drive: 2 cross

Spoke Pattern Drive: 2 cross

Spoke Length Drive: 250mm

Spoke Pattern Front: Radial

Spoke Length Front: 264mm

11-speed compatible hub: Yes

Track Adaptable: No

Dimpled Surface: Yes

External Nipples: Yes

Just 125g difference, and only the front wheel needs more spokes. Part of the weight difference will also be down to the rear hub which is slightly larger, following the old MTB 135mm standard width. And this is just early days, I'd expect in time we'll see lighter wheels as experience builds.

[moonoi]

Its all about selling bikes and marketing. The disc brakes seem to be moving onto racing bikes now. I dont think they will become established though. The small rotor gets very hot on a mountain descent. Forks have to be beefed up. It all weighs more than the current brakes. Racers like to slow down rather than come to a sudden stop. How easy is it to do a fast wheel change during the TDF?

Remember Shimano Biopace chainsets in the late 80's early 90's. Totally discarded after a couple of years but for those few years it was the latest thing and helped sell more bikes. Money was made even if it wasnt an improvement.

yes I think it is all marketing.......Shimano Biopace, I always wanted to try it, the arguments sounded good to me and now I can not find it anywhere

Just try Rotor Q Rings or Osymetric rings instead, these actually work (with data to back them up), whereas Biopace didn't. Disadvantage though is poorer shifting than round chainrings, and in my opinion they look stupid ;-)

[CNXBKKMAN]

Its all about selling bikes and marketing. The disc brakes seem to be moving onto racing bikes now. I dont think they will become established though. The small rotor gets very hot on a mountain descent. Forks have to be beefed up. It all weighs more than the current brakes. Racers like to slow down rather than come to a sudden stop. How easy is it to do a fast wheel change during the TDF?

Remember Shimano Biopace chainsets in the late 80's early 90's. Totally discarded after a couple of years but for those few years it was the latest thing and helped sell more bikes. Money was made even if it wasnt an improvement.

yes I think it is all marketing.......Shimano Biopace, I always wanted to try it, the arguments sounded good to me and now I can not find it anywhere

Just try Rotor Q Rings or Osymetric rings instead, these actually work (with data to back them up), whereas Biopace didn't. Disadvantage though is poorer shifting than round chainrings, and in my opinion they look stupid ;-)

When i had a Biopace chain set on my 1989 Kona Cindercone i always thought my chain wore out faster. No science to back that feeling up though.

Disc brakes may end up being the standard brakes on racing bikes, time will tell. Coming from the UK the biggest benefit for disc brakes for me was you could splash through mud and dirt, turn your rims brown and not have the horrible scrunching of the rim brakes grinding the rims down. A painful sound!

In the bike world the latest thing is always the best, the old thing is rubbish even if it was the best prior to the latest thing. When MTB's started cantilever brakes where the thing to have, really powerful essential for off road descents. V brakes came out, these are just so powerful, much better than cantilevers, easier to set up, nobody wants a bike with cantilevers. Disc brakes come out, they are so powerful , v brakes just don't cut it anymore, not powerful enough, they wear the rims out, no good in wet ( they were fine before discs came out) etc.

For me personally Cantilvers = good, V brakes = good and Disc brakes = good. Most important thing is they are set up and adjusted correctly.

[bobfish]

I think Moonoi has put the case for disc brakes very succinctly. In a few years, v brakes will be like 26in Mtb wheels. The pure physics of feel and modulation mean that you can stay on, or very close to, the maximum braking coefficient [ie not locking up] for the given conditions. It's about control.

Here's a brave statement: I don't believe I'll ever buy a v-brake specced bicycle in the future!

[bobfish]

I think Moonoi has put the case for disc brakes very succinctly. In a few years, rim-brakes [ie cantiv-brake] will be like 26in Mtb wheels. The pure physics of feel and modulation mean that you can stay on, or very close to, the maximum braking coefficient [ie not locking up] for the given conditions. It's about control.

Here's a brave statement: I don't believe I'll ever buy a rim-brake specced bicycle in the future!

Asthetics aside, I have a Rotor triple on my hardtail. They work! Luckily, crap shifting is disguised when things get muddy!

Edited May 22, 2015 by bobfish

[bobfish]

Sorry about the double [triple ring] posting!

[h90]

I think Moonoi has put the case for disc brakes very succinctly. In a few years, v brakes will be like 26in Mtb wheels. The pure physics of feel and modulation mean that you can stay on, or very close to, the maximum braking coefficient [ie not locking up] for the given conditions. It's about control.

Here's a brave statement: I don't believe I'll ever buy a v-brake specced bicycle in the future!

Might be true for a MTB with all the dirt and the heavier setup of the wheels, but for the street bike, I could always brake with the back brake very light and squeeze the front brake till I feel the back starts to slide, on the Alps. So it was already perfect. There is no improvement possible....just heavier.

But on the MTB the situation is different.

[bobfish]

I think Moonoi has put the case for disc brakes very succinctly. In a few years, v brakes will be like 26in Mtb wheels. The pure physics of feel and modulation mean that you can stay on, or very close to, the maximum braking coefficient [ie not locking up] for the given conditions. It's about control.

Here's a brave statement: I don't believe I'll ever buy a v-brake specced bicycle in the future!

Might be true for a MTB with all the dirt and the heavier setup of the wheels, but for the street bike, I could always brake with the back brake very light and squeeze the front brake till I feel the back starts to slide, on the Alps. So it was already perfect. There is no improvement possible....just heavier.

But on the MTB the situation is different.

Seriously?

[bobfish]

Okay, I’m not a physicist, but some layman observations regarding disc brakes over rim type.:

Weight: Negligible.

Rotational inertia [NB: Equals mass x the square of the moment arm.] Negligible, and negated to some extent by weight of specific braking compounds/mouldings being deployed on the rim.

Braking effectiveness: Much improved feel and modulation through the mechanical advantages of lever to brake-pad movement and frictional moment arms. Especially apparent in less than ideal, dry/ homogenous conditions.

Overheating: The loss of braking effectiveness through overheating is less sudden than the catastrophic failure of the rim, and/or tyre.

Rim distortion: Braking and rolling capabilities are not affected by minor rim distortions such as warping etc.

Quick change: with practice, very little slower - however it may be a factor. This is offset by the rapid introduction of tubeless tyres exhibiting much longer mean time between failures.

Of course, nothing would be complete about some marketing hype to bolster n+1. That’s expected, along with some 'flat earth' comments. It is early days, but I stand by my previous comments regarding the longevity of rim type brakes.

[h90]

Okay, I’m not a physicist, but some layman observations regarding disc brakes over rim type.:

Weight: Negligible.

Rotational inertia [NB: Equals mass x the square of the moment arm.] Negligible, and negated to some extent by weight of specific braking compounds/mouldings being deployed on the rim.

Braking effectiveness: Much improved feel and modulation through the mechanical advantages of lever to brake-pad movement and frictional moment arms. Especially apparent in less than ideal, dry/ homogenous conditions.

Overheating: The loss of braking effectiveness through overheating is less sudden than the catastrophic failure of the rim, and/or tyre.

Rim distortion: Braking and rolling capabilities are not affected by minor rim distortions such as warping etc.

Quick change: with practice, very little slower - however it may be a factor. This is offset by the rapid introduction of tubeless tyres exhibiting much longer mean time between failures.

Of course, nothing would be complete about some marketing hype to bolster n+1. That’s expected, along with some 'flat earth' comments. It is early days, but I stand by my previous comments regarding the longevity of rim type brakes.

You forgot:

Torque: massive torque, specially on the front wheel that stress the rim and spokes. That doesn't exist on the old style brakes. No Radial spokes possible. Need 2 or 3 cross

[CNXBKKMAN]

I think a hot rim tyre problem is a tiny risk for a tiny amount of people. It doesnt seem to be a big problems for the pros racing up and down the Alps in the TDF.

If you have a buckled wheel the rim may rub on the brake pads but really your ride that day is over and its time to go home and fix it. Just the same if your dusc rotor gets bent. Bend it back as best you can and cycle home with that annoying scraping sound.

Discs do seem to get damaged on planes so best to take them off the hub and reinstall them at the other end. One friend flew to France for a little tour and his rotor got bent. He could still ride but noise for the next few days until he could get it fixed drove him mad. He is anti disc now.

Bob Fish said earlier " i dont think i will ever buy a V-braked spec'd bike in the future" which is very true because it probably wont be an option. Heres my bold statement.....i dont think i will ever buy an electronic geared bike EVER in the future. Teflon coated cables and some nice shimano STI gear combo is fine for me. Fit it and forget about it for 1000's and 1000's of miles. It seems to offer nothing but trouble and another thing to charge.

[impulse]

i dont think i will ever buy an electronic geared bike EVER in the future. Teflon coated cables and some nice shimano STI gear combo is fine for me. Fit it and forget about it for 1000's and 1000's of miles. It seems to offer nothing but trouble and another thing to charge.

But pretty soon you'll have to charge up the processor for your anti-lock hydraulic disk braking system anyway, and charging the electronic shifters won't be any more work.

[CNXBKKMAN]

Thats is what puts me off the electronic gears. All the charging and added complexity that isn't really needed. What are the benefits of the electronic system over a traditional mechanical cable set up? A 0.03 faster gear change? I don't see the benefits as being worthwhile. Maybe there will be some solar cells on the frame that continually charge the battery in the future. Solar paint job?

Anti lock braking doesnt appeal either. My brakes only lock when i want to do a big skid and throw up some dust. A lot of this stuff seems to address problems i don't have. Even going down a steep muddy track the back wheel will lock up but its what i expect or what i choose. I am the anti lock brake system.

Something that is already here and will become more common is the electric motor assisted bikes. Mountain bikers are already flying up steep climbs. Going further than than your fitness or muscles would allow you to. I can imagine using that when i am old just to get out and about.

[h90]

Off topic: changing the brakes who works OK, but no improvements on the drive train, still the same system as 50 years ago with just minor improvements.

Only covering the surface with some TiN would make them last forever. But make them really smaller....the low power of an human would allow a chain much smaller, with like 20+ gears on the hub, allowing only one gear on the pedals.

On the wheels and tubes I feel that it was 10 years rather better than than now. These thin rims with glued on tires were good, together with the often too stiff setup now there softness would be an advantage and it would be lighter.

Computer with magnets is also 1980s. Why you need a magnet a sensor could detect the passing spokes, not difficult. Or with magnet why need a battery if a magnet passes. These wireless solutions are bigger and heavier as the wired from the old times.

And everything is complete overpriced, if you compare technology of a street racing motorbike and its price with a bicycle it is total crazy considering how much technology is in the motorbike.....

Everyone put the prime money into promotion and not into development of something really new.

[impulse]

As long as enough people will buy into it, they'll keep thinking up, developing, aggressively marketing and selling crap we don't need.

I'm just thankful it's not like the auto world where they force it on everyone whether we want it or not.

[chiangmaiexpat]

You forgot:

Torque: massive torque, specially on the front wheel that stress the rim and spokes. That doesn't exist on the old style brakes. No Radial spokes possible. Need 2 or 3 cross

Yes, torsional stress is an issue, but only with cheap/lightweight wheels. In 2013, I broke 10-12 spokes of my Roval wheels running down Doi Pui on fast tracks. I finally had enough and rebuilt both wheels.

A rim brake can be made suprisingly strong, equalling or exceeding the breaking power of a disk break. For example, trials bikes often use huge rim breaks on roughened rims. The main disadvantage of rim brakes is that they do not perform well/consistent in mud and water. Also, rim overheating and tyre damage are still problems, although it's not very common.

Of course, disk brakes can overheat as well. Yesterday, Kelly McGarry had a big crash in China. Front break overheated and gave out... going down a 50% gradient.

Cheers, CM-Expat