Tourist Police Dreamworld

[FolkGuitar]

1. If the Volunteers were working illegally, they would have been arrested and deported. That they haven't been means that you are not quite as familiar with Thai Law as you might like. Or... do you suppose that after all these years of having a volunteer program that the Police are unaware of the law?

2. The Volunteers also have a command structure, and generally work along side (not necessarily physically) with an assigned Thai police officer.

3. The Volunteers also go through a training period.

1) That the TVPs are not held to the law is precisely the point.. Yes by every measure they are breaking the law.. Simon43 a senior TVP asked and worked for months to get a volunteer work permit simply to set a precedent.. he failed.. He was constantly told dont bother its ok.. No one minds.. Which is typical thai style, those in power can abuse the law as they see fit and the law is only for others. The fact that westerners themselves buy into that claptrap is laughable. Volunteering needs a work permit, by no measure does TVP work fall under any other.

2) There is no national command structure.. theres a bunch of regional structures with no consistency.. Theres immigration volunteer police.. police volunteer police.. Different departments and fiefdoms appear..

3) for handcuffs and mace ??

1. I don't know what your home country is, but in the U.S. there are hundreds of laws in every state still on the books that are no longer upheld by law enforcement agencies. I'll be willing to bet that this is the case in your home country too. Are people actively working to get your policing agencies to enforce those laws. I doubt it. Are people in these countries upset that these laws are not being upheld, and calling the police negligent for not upholding these laws? I doubt that too. Is it possible that this is the case here in Thailand as well?

2. The only Volunteer Police group in Thailand at this time is the one working with the Royal Thai Tourist Police. There are volunteers working with Immigration but they are NOT police-related

3. Handcuffs and mace are carried by just about every Security Guard in every shopping mall. Batons as well. Do you suppose any of them were given training in the uses. At least the Volunteer Tourist Police are not REQUIRED to carry them, and if they do, are required to carry them out of sight.

The Volunteer Tourist Police function more as Social Workers than Police, at least in the Chiang Mai area, giving aid to visitors in need rather than legal matters, and working as translators/liaison between visitors having difficulties communicating their needs to the actual Police officers.

but I would not attempt to communicate between a foreigner and a Thai police person.

Yeah... We got that.

You assume too much, FG. I did not say I would not try to help.

Pretty much, the ONLY help that the Volunteer Tourist Police render is communication between foreigner and Thai police. It was pretty safe to believe that since you said you wouldn't do that, it would mean that you wouldn't do that. Please excuse me if I got that wrong. It does get confusing at times.

[LivinLOS]

1. I don't know what your home country is, but in the U.S. there are hundreds of laws in every state still on the books that are no longer upheld by law enforcement agencies. I'll be willing to bet that this is the case in your home country too. Are people actively working to get your policing agencies to enforce those laws. I doubt it. Are people in these countries upset that these laws are not being upheld, and calling the police negligent for not upholding these laws? I doubt that too. Is it possible that this is the case here in Thailand as well?

2. The only Volunteer Police group in Thailand at this time is the one working with the Royal Thai Tourist Police. There are volunteers working with Immigration but they are NOT police-related

3. Handcuffs and mace are carried by just about every Security Guard in every shopping mall. Batons as well. Do you suppose any of them were given training in the uses. At least the Volunteer Tourist Police are not REQUIRED to carry them, and if they do, are required to carry them out of sight.

1) you are confusing a law which is routinely ignored, with a law that is selectively ignored.. 2 very different things.. The work permit law is not some defunct outdated ignored law, its very real and current.. And yet the lawmen are allowed to break the law.. its precisely this kind of 'one rule for us, and another rule for them' which is so fundamentally wrong with the system. Its an abuse of power.

The fact that TVPs have been told they can only enforce on westerners and not Thais is a second inequality under law.. either they are legally there with rights for all, or they are not.. The fact TVPs can enforce laws on westerners but not Thais shows a clear double standard. Both in application and action.

2) the immigration volunteer police are still routinely called TVPs.. I have much less of an issue with them as they are much more an assistance and information service than one which is involved with application and enforcement of laws and punishment.

I had a good buddy who joined the phuket immigration volunteers.. He also had a nice sideline going with his immigration chief on rubber stamping visas apps, one year visas, even arranging passports to leave the country and get new ones. Prices ranged from 5k to 20k.. The TVP system was his way of making connections with power to work corruption and earn himself a bent living.. Much like the TVP who sold cocaine I knew, tho I really doubt he had the protections he boasted of.

3) Mace is illegal here right ?? Same as tazers.. TVPs have no power of detainment right ?? So if you have no powers of arrest or detainment, when does this training you say you have had say you can handcuff someone ?? Either you dont have that right (as so many TVPs have posted) or you do.. If you dont, why are you openly carrying illegal weapons and devices to enable something you cannot do ?? This is my point about a total lack of clarity on rights, on training, on what can be done and when.. and what punishments people who abuse or overstep their authority would face.

Saying others break the law routinely so we will break the law by carrying banned weapons sounds a strange defence coming from someone working to uphold the law !! Do you not see the irony in that ?? We can break the law because, we are the enforcers of the law ??

[LivinLOS]

Pretty much, the ONLY help that the Volunteer Tourist Police render is communication between foreigner and Thai police.

TVPs have been used to bust agogos showing too much nudity..

TVPs have been used for undercover work in plain clothes..

TVPs have been used to pass marked notes in sting operations..

TVPs have been used to bust (by screwing !!) Ubeck women..

TVPs have maced people.. arrested people.. detained people..

Somehow I dont see that as 'communication between foreigner and Thai police'. Its performing actual police work, often against non Thais.. So are you lieing through ignorance of these actions or on purpose ?? Because thats what your denial is a lie.

[LivinLOS]

Forum doesnt let you delete posts even in a short time window it seems.

I just find the whole thing a bit laughable.. On of the Phuket ones went out and had his truck fitted with great big door panel sticker sheriff badges branded TVP Tourist police and emergency lights on top.. Pure comedy... What kind of person does that to play hobby bobby ?? Many of them used to have a little badge they would put to a sunvisor in the car so they could flip it down and park anywhere.. A nice little abuse of power because.. well we are the police..

It was an improvement getting rid of the all black military uniform to go with the white polo shirt.. Tho I see patts is still rocking the military and boots look.

[Lizard2010]

Forum doesnt let you delete posts even in a short time window it seems.

I just find the whole thing a bit laughable.. On of the Phuket ones went out and had his truck fitted with great big door panel sticker sheriff badges branded TVP Tourist police and emergency lights on top.. Pure comedy... What kind of person does that to play hobby bobby ?? Many of them used to have a little badge they would put to a sunvisor in the car so they could flip it down and park anywhere.. A nice little abuse of power because.. well we are the police..

It was an improvement getting rid of the all black military uniform to go with the white polo shirt.. Tho I see patts is still rocking the military and boots look.

I thought the Op was talking about Chiang Mai

NOT Phuket

You can not compare the southern areas as to what happens in Chiang Mai

Everyone has their opinions

I believe it will be a no win on this subject

[Konini]

.....and as this is the Chiang Mai forum, it must be getting to the time for out of towner's to leave.

Drive safely.

[FolkGuitar]

Pretty much, the ONLY help that the Volunteer Tourist Police render is communication between foreigner and Thai police.

TVPs have been used to bust agogos showing too much nudity..

TVPs have been used for undercover work in plain clothes..

TVPs have been used to pass marked notes in sting operations..

TVPs have been used to bust (by screwing !!) Ubeck women..

TVPs have maced people.. arrested people.. detained people..

Somehow I dont see that as 'communication between foreigner and Thai police'. Its performing actual police work, often against non Thais.. So are you lieing through ignorance of these actions or on purpose ?? Because thats what your denial is a lie.

I've continually stated that I am referring to the Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police, who have done NONE of these things.

You continually talk about the Southern Volunteer Tourist Police. And because 'SOME' of the southern volunteers break the rules or are used for these police actions, you've decided that the entire program should be scrapped. That makes very little sense to me.

I had a good buddy who joined the phuket immigration volunteers.. He also had a nice sideline going with his immigration chief on rubber stamping visas apps, one year visas, even arranging passports to leave the country and get new ones. Prices ranged from 5k to 20k..

Let me understand... You want the Volunteer program to be shut down because a few bad apples have done some bad things, but...

... what did YOU (this time I'm specifically asking you) do when you found out about the criminal activity that your friend was carrying out? Did you turn a blind eye? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Please excuse this old saying, but it's still true today; If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In fact, legally, perhaps you could be charged as an Accessory After the Fact. So let's us all climb down from our high horses and realize that people are people no matter what, where, or why. Some good, some not so good. The Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police do a lot of good for the visitors to the north, and if there are one or two bad apples in the bunch, the good that is done more than makes up for it.

[LivinLOS]

Forum doesnt let you delete posts even in a short time window it seems.

I just find the whole thing a bit laughable.. On of the Phuket ones went out and had his truck fitted with great big door panel sticker sheriff badges branded TVP Tourist police and emergency lights on top.. Pure comedy... What kind of person does that to play hobby bobby ?? Many of them used to have a little badge they would put to a sunvisor in the car so they could flip it down and park anywhere.. A nice little abuse of power because.. well we are the police..

It was an improvement getting rid of the all black military uniform to go with the white polo shirt.. Tho I see patts is still rocking the military and boots look.

I thought the Op was talking about Chiang Mai

NOT Phuket

You can not compare the southern areas as to what happens in Chiang Mai

Everyone has their opinions

I believe it will be a no win on this subject

And then also stated there was a national oversight not a loose collection of different fiefdoms..

Cant have it both ways, either this is a national organisation with correct leadership and training, and hence all TVPs are part of one collective.. Or its a bunch of individual fiefdoms without any national control system, chain of responsibility, training structure, etc etc..

[LivinLOS]

Pretty much, the ONLY help that the Volunteer Tourist Police render is communication between foreigner and Thai police.

TVPs have been used to bust agogos showing too much nudity..

TVPs have been used for undercover work in plain clothes..

TVPs have been used to pass marked notes in sting operations..

TVPs have been used to bust (by screwing !!) Ubeck women..

TVPs have maced people.. arrested people.. detained people..

Somehow I dont see that as 'communication between foreigner and Thai police'. Its performing actual police work, often against non Thais.. So are you lieing through ignorance of these actions or on purpose ?? Because thats what your denial is a lie.

I've continually stated that I am referring to the Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police, who have done NONE of these things.

You continually talk about the Southern Volunteer Tourist Police. And because 'SOME' of the southern volunteers break the rules or are used for these police actions, you've decided that the entire program should be scrapped. That makes very little sense to me.

I had a good buddy who joined the phuket immigration volunteers.. He also had a nice sideline going with his immigration chief on rubber stamping visas apps, one year visas, even arranging passports to leave the country and get new ones. Prices ranged from 5k to 20k..

Let me understand... You want the Volunteer program to be shut down because a few bad apples have done some bad things, but...

... what did YOU (this time I'm specifically asking you) do when you found out about the criminal activity that your friend was carrying out? Did you turn a blind eye? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Please excuse this old saying, but it's still true today; If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In fact, legally, perhaps you could be charged as an Accessory After the Fact. So let's us all climb down from our high horses and realize that people are people no matter what, where, or why. Some good, some not so good. The Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police do a lot of good for the visitors to the north, and if there are one or two bad apples in the bunch, the good that is done more than makes up for it.

You stated this was a national organisation and not localized fiefdoms run independently without correct oversight.. which is it ??

My point is the type of people it attracts who want to play at police enforcement (and I note you dont answer any of the actual questions on when your training tells you you can use force, use illegal pepper spray, use handcuffs and restraints.. Despite so many officers posting publically they are not authorised to do this) are clearly not the kind of people who should be allowed power over others. It is less a case of 'a few bd apples' its a case of anyone who wants to tell others what to do, as a police role entails, by definition is highly suspect. The evidence that those attracted to the role are ill suited or doing it for personal gain, has been shown time and again.

My point is not one or two bad apples, its that the entire system is misguided and wrong.. it involves people working illegally while enforcing the law on others.. it involves them carrying illegal weapons while claiming to want to enforce legality.. It involves them carrying devices to detain (only westerners) while not having the legal right to do so.. It involves double standards on being enforcers only on non Thais while leaving Thais to break the law in plain sight. I can really see a TVP rocking up to enforce the law at Suyuri sometime soon !!! So obviously your picking and selecting which laws you feel like enforcing today.

The national system has been abused by its very commanders, to use westerners in sting operations, to sell visas, to screw hookers for gods sake.. When that is the wisdom of the management of the program, yes it should be terminated and the enforcement of Thais laws left to the Thais for ALL nationalities.

Thailand is a country which makes catch all grey area laws allowing localised enforcement and interpretation (see the working legislation or too many to even list) and is a country that routinely ignores its own laws in enforcement (2 till 5 pm bar closures anyone ??) its clearly not the place of non Thais to be deciding what is law and what isnt, when so much of what is law is routinely ignored or made up on the spot. That judgement call is not an area of authority I consent to be governed by a westerner's idea of what it should be.

I mean, do you intend to stop people not wearing helmets ?? Or stop people having a beer and getting on their scooter ?? Why is picking and choosing what is important for enforcement your right ? Your either an enforcer of the law or your not, you cant have it all ways.

Edited May 26, 2015 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

... what did YOU (this time I'm specifically asking you) do when you found out about the criminal activity that your friend was carrying out? Did you turn a blind eye? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Yeah right.. I am really going to go start reporting on the boss of immigration for his highly visible and well known about anyway profiteering.. Of course all those immigration officers are buying new BMWs out of the 16k a month salary they get.

The thai police (and military, and immigration, hell even teaching it seems) system is corrupt to its core, the process of buying your commission or position ensures it has to be.. Westerners getting involved in such organisations cannot remain aloof from that fact.

[Loaded]

Is that guy who had the website promoting prostitution still a Chiang Mai tourist policeman?

[JingerBen]

TVPs have been used to bust agogos showing too much nudity..

TVPs have been used for undercover work in plain clothes..

TVPs have been used to pass marked notes in sting operations..

TVPs have been used to bust (by screwing !!) Ubeck women..

TVPs have maced people.. arrested people.. detained people..

Somehow I dont see that as 'communication between foreigner and Thai police'. Its performing actual police work, often against non Thais.. So are you lieing through ignorance of these actions or on purpose ?? Because thats what your denial is a lie.

I've continually stated that I am referring to the Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police, who have done NONE of these things.

You continually talk about the Southern Volunteer Tourist Police. And because 'SOME' of the southern volunteers break the rules or are used for these police actions, you've decided that the entire program should be scrapped. That makes very little sense to me.

I had a good buddy who joined the phuket immigration volunteers.. He also had a nice sideline going with his immigration chief on rubber stamping visas apps, one year visas, even arranging passports to leave the country and get new ones. Prices ranged from 5k to 20k..

Let me understand... You want the Volunteer program to be shut down because a few bad apples have done some bad things, but...

... what did YOU (this time I'm specifically asking you) do when you found out about the criminal activity that your friend was carrying out? Did you turn a blind eye? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Please excuse this old saying, but it's still true today; If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In fact, legally, perhaps you could be charged as an Accessory After the Fact. So let's us all climb down from our high horses and realize that people are people no matter what, where, or why. Some good, some not so good. The Chiang Mai Volunteer Tourist Police do a lot of good for the visitors to the north, and if there are one or two bad apples in the bunch, the good that is done more than makes up for it.

You stated this was a national organisation and not localized fiefdoms run independently without correct oversight.. which is it ??

My point is the type of people it attracts who want to play at police enforcement (and I note you dont answer any of the actual questions on when your training tells you you can use force, use illegal pepper spray, use handcuffs and restraints.. Despite so many officers posting publically they are not authorised to do this) are clearly not the kind of people who should be allowed power over others. It is less a case of 'a few bd apples' its a case of anyone who wants to tell others what to do, as a police role entails, by definition is highly suspect. The evidence that those attracted to the role are ill suited or doing it for personal gain, has been shown time and again.

My point is not one or two bad apples, its that the entire system is misguided and wrong.. it involves people working illegally while enforcing the law on others.. it involves them carrying illegal weapons while claiming to want to enforce legality.. It involves them carrying devices to detain (only westerners) while not having the legal right to do so.. It involves double standards on being enforcers only on non Thais while leaving Thais to break the law in plain sight. I can really see a TVP rocking up to enforce the law at Suyuri sometime soon !!! So obviously your picking and selecting which laws you feel like enforcing today.

The national system has been abused by its very commanders, to use westerners in sting operations, to sell visas, to screw hookers for gods sake.. When that is the wisdom of the management of the program, yes it should be terminated and the enforcement of Thais laws left to the Thais for ALL nationalities.

Thailand is a country which makes catch all grey area laws allowing localised enforcement and interpretation (see the working legislation or too many to even list) and is a country that routinely ignores its own laws in enforcement (2 till 5 pm bar closures anyone ??) its clearly not the place of non Thais to be deciding what is law and what isnt, when so much of what is law is routinely ignored or made up on the spot. That judgement call is not an area of authority I consent to be governed by a westerner's idea of what it should be.

I mean, do you intend to stop people not wearing helmets ?? Or stop people having a beer and getting on their scooter ?? Why is picking and choosing what is important for enforcement your right ? Your either an enforcer of the law or your not, you cant have it all ways.

Thanks for that excellent insightful post.

You've summed it up... in a nutshell.

[FolkGuitar]

1. You stated this was a national organisation and not localized fiefdoms run independently without correct oversight.. which is it ??

2. I note you dont answer any of the actual questions on when your training tells you you can use force, use illegal pepper spray, use handcuffs and restraints..

3. Despite so many officers posting publically they are not authorised to do this) are clearly not the kind of people who should be allowed power over others.

4. My point is not one or two bad apples, its that the entire system is misguided and wrong..

5. The national system has been abused by its very commanders,

6. Thailand is a country which makes catch all grey area laws allowing localised enforcement and interpretation (see the working legislation or too many to even list) and is a country that routinely ignores its own laws in enforcement

7. Why is picking and choosing what is important for enforcement your right ? Your either an enforcer of the law or your not, you cant have it all ways.

Please excuse my numbering of your post, but it's the only way to deal with your questions without overloading the 'quote' limits.

1. The Royal Thai Police is a national organization, just as is the United States Army. And like the US Army, the command structure is broken down into smaller more governable units, with a local administrator for each. The Pentagon doesn't tell Colonel Smith how to deal with day-to-day affairs under his command. That's up to him. Same with the Royal Thai Police. The local commander is responsible for the actions of ONLY his division.

2. I didn't answer your question because I have absolutely no way of knowing. I'm not a member of the Volunteer Tourist Police. Perhaps you could ask one of them.

3. 'So many?' 4? 6? 10? Out of a cadre numbering several hundred, a handful hardly is representative. I suggest that you are blowing things out of proportion.

4. A lot of good people disagree with you.

5. On this point, I would agree with you.

6. I take it that you are not comfortable here. This begs the question, why do you stay?

7. In a perfect world you would be correct. Let us know when and where you find a perfect world. Diogenes is still looking for an 'honest man,' and has been since 403 B.C.

[harrry]

Actually yes, that is why the members of society make rules and then enforce them. What is happening too often though is that some do not enforce the rules by the book but by their pocket or ego, this should be stopped by those charged with controlling them.

Wonderful use of the word "should."

But until they actually "do," do you think the programs or entire organizations need to be shut down?

Yes

[FolkGuitar]

Actually yes, that is why the members of society make rules and then enforce them. What is happening too often though is that some do not enforce the rules by the book but by their pocket or ego, this should be stopped by those charged with controlling them.

Wonderful use of the word "should."

But until they actually "do," do you think the programs or entire organizations need to be shut down?

Yes

Then by your suggestion, we need to shut down virtually EVERY organization, be it Civilian, Military, and Police, and EVERY government in virtually EVERY country in the world, 'cuz there just isn't a single one that follows every rule it makes! Is that really what you want to see happen?

Rules get made, laws get passed, statutes imposed, and they get selectively ignored by the very people who either made them or the people hire to enforce them. Would you like to get a $100 fine every time you crossed a street in the middle of a block, not using a crosswalk? How about being pulled over by the police every time you changed lanes but didn't use your turn signals? You might be very careful about putting on your seatbelt, but might just take an extra 5 minutes over your lunch hour. Do you still want to see every single rule enforced?

[hml367]

I, for one, FG, don't agree with your arguments. As you have posted before, you (FG)post, someone reads. Up to them if they agree, etc., etc. You need to accept people may have different views than you.

You ask other people to provide "facts", yet you excuse yourself from providing facts when it is convenient.

I suggest that when the Tourist Police Division was formed, the idea was for them to be able, as only one of their many responsibilities, to help "tourists" in other than Thai language.

What is now called volunteers, in my opinion (I hope it is ok to have an opinion), should be separate from the Royal Thai Police in any way. There are many ways for that too be done.

[LivinLOS]

6. I take it that you are not comfortable here. This begs the question, why do you stay?

I am perfectly comfortable with a country having grey area laws and accept, unwillingly, that Thai national police will be able to enforce what they want and ignore what they don't want.

I am not comfortable with some farang picking and choosing what laws he feels he should or should not enforce. Why should they have that right ??

[LivinLOS]

Then by your suggestion, we need to shut down virtually EVERY organization, be it Civilian, Military, and Police, and EVERY government in virtually EVERY country in the world, 'cuz there just isn't a single one that follows every rule it makes! Is that really what you want to see happen?

Rules get made, laws get passed, statutes imposed, and they get selectively ignored by the very people who either made them or the people hire to enforce them. Would you like to get a $100 fine every time you crossed a street in the middle of a block, not using a crosswalk? How about being pulled over by the police every time you changed lanes but didn't use your turn signals? You might be very careful about putting on your seatbelt, but might just take an extra 5 minutes over your lunch hour. Do you still want to see every single rule enforced?

What you seem to refuse to accept and or purposefully miss understand is...

We know the Thai police force is corrupt.. We can deal with it.. We know the Thai police have a variable authority to ignore law breaking when it suits them. Again while its not ideal we can live with it...

What we dont accept is westerners having that right and it being only applicable over other westerners.. Why should some hobby bobby who wants to strap on a uniform get to decide what rules he will or wont implement over me today ?? What is Ok to ignore and what must be enforced ?? What method he will use to enforce it, what legal right he has to do so, or what right the person he enforces rules on, has to resist or challenge them ??

The whole this is grey and undefined.. From the actual legal basis of thier volunteer work to the actions of the role they carry out.. Can they arrest ?? Can they detain ?? When is detainment not arrest ?? Can they carry and use mace, handcuffs, and weapons ?? Under what circumstances (only in self defense, the defense of others, the action of a arrest / detainment, any or none of the above) ?? What laws are they to enforce and which ones to ignore ??

The role as enforcers of the law needs a clear hierarchy, and command structure with avenues of complaint and redress.. If those simple basic steps cant be put in place then it is safer it didn't exist at all, its too open to abuse and appeals to precisely the kind of controlling mentality I wouldnt want to see in the role.

Working as an information service ?? Manning translation lines ?? Giving out immigration information ?? Being in an office where people can come to for assistance ?? Etc etc are far less contentious issues. But 'enforcement' ie having power over others, requires far greater controls than are currently in place.

Edited May 26, 2015 by LivinLOS

[harrry]

Actually yes, that is why the members of society make rules and then enforce them. What is happening too often though is that some do not enforce the rules by the book but by their pocket or ego, this should be stopped by those charged with controlling them.

Wonderful use of the word "should."

But until they actually "do," do you think the programs or entire organizations need to be shut down?

Yes

Then by your suggestion, we need to shut down virtually EVERY organization, be it Civilian, Military, and Police, and EVERY government in virtually EVERY country in the world, 'cuz there just isn't a single one that follows every rule it makes! Is that really what you want to see happen?

Rules get made, laws get passed, statutes imposed, and they get selectively ignored by the very people who either made them or the people hire to enforce them. Would you like to get a $100 fine every time you crossed a street in the middle of a block, not using a crosswalk? How about being pulled over by the police every time you changed lanes but didn't use your turn signals? You might be very careful about putting on your seatbelt, but might just take an extra 5 minutes over your lunch hour. Do you still want to see every single rule enforced?

When laws are enforced correctly by people who are qualified to do so and do so in accordance with the rules we live in a safer society.

[FolkGuitar]

I, for one, FG, don't agree with your arguments. As you have posted before, you (FG)post, someone reads. Up to them if they agree, etc., etc. You need to accept people may have different views than you.

You ask other people to provide "facts", yet you excuse yourself from providing facts when it is convenient.

I suggest that when the Tourist Police Division was formed, the idea was for them to be able, as only one of their many responsibilities, to help "tourists" in other than Thai language.

What is now called volunteers, in my opinion (I hope it is ok to have an opinion), should be separate from the Royal Thai Police in any way. There are many ways for that too be done.

I've never said that you couldn't have your own opinion. I've never tried to stop anyone from posting theirs. The fact that I disagree with your opinion, and the rest of Thailand seems to agree with me, shouldn't stop you from having yours. I congratulate you for having the guts to stand up and speak your peace, even if it flies in the face of reality.

What facts that I have would you like me to produce? I'm not the one stating that ALL the Volunteers are corrupt.

6. I take it that you are not comfortable here. This begs the question, why do you stay?

I am perfectly comfortable with a country having grey area laws and accept, unwillingly, that Thai national police will be able to enforce what they want and ignore what they don't want.

I am not comfortable with some farang picking and choosing what laws he feels he should or should not enforce. Why should they have that right ??

Where do you see Volunteers picking and choosing? What makes you think this is what is going on, rather than their being told what to do?

[FolkGuitar]

Then by your suggestion, we need to shut down virtually EVERY organization, be it Civilian, Military, and Police, and EVERY government in virtually EVERY country in the world, 'cuz there just isn't a single one that follows every rule it makes! Is that really what you want to see happen?

Rules get made, laws get passed, statutes imposed, and they get selectively ignored by the very people who either made them or the people hire to enforce them. Would you like to get a $100 fine every time you crossed a street in the middle of a block, not using a crosswalk? How about being pulled over by the police every time you changed lanes but didn't use your turn signals? You might be very careful about putting on your seatbelt, but might just take an extra 5 minutes over your lunch hour. Do you still want to see every single rule enforced?

What you seem to refuse to accept and or purposefully miss understand is...

We know the Thai police force is corrupt.. We can deal with it.. We know the Thai police have a variable authority to ignore law breaking when it suits them. Again while its not ideal we can live with it...

What we dont accept is westerners having that right and it being only applicable over other westerners.. Why should some hobby bobby who wants to strap on a uniform get to decide what rules he will or wont implement over me today ?? What is Ok to ignore and what must be enforced ?? What method he will use to enforce it, what legal right he has to do so, or what right the person he enforces rules on, has to resist or challenge them ??

Some questions:

1. Where do you get the idea that the volunteers are able to decide what they are supposed to do, rather than being told what to do by a superior?

2. Why are you surprised that the volunteers (all foreigners hired to deal with other foreigners) do not deal with Thais? That's their job description.

3. Do you imagine that they are just 'let loose' to do what they want to do?

4. What makes you think that they do any 'enforcement?' At least in Chiang Mai, they are not charged with that duty.

[hml367]

More embellishing, FG. It seems obvious that "the rest of Thailand" does not agree with you from the posts in this thread.

[LivinLOS]

What facts that I have would you like me to produce? I'm not the one stating that ALL the Volunteers are corrupt.

Where do you see Volunteers picking and choosing? What makes you think this is what is going on, rather than their being told what to do?

1) Every volunteer policeman is breaking the law every time they volunteer.. Even the long standing senior TVPs who have been doing this for years acknowledge this.. How can someone who is breaking the law be an enforcer of the law ??

Secondly it isnt that every one of them is corrupt.. Its that the system lacks checks and balances, it lacks controls, it lacks even the most rudimentary of clarity on rights and responsibilities.. This lack of checks and balances has allowed a few to overstep boundaries or act in a corrupt way, without problems. Its the lack of checks and balances thats the issue.

2) because I have known and talked to many TVPs.. They readily agree they are not there to enforce helmet law.. They usually deny they are there to patrol nightlife or prostitution laws (despite that actually happening !!) but then start drilling down onto what laws are to be enforced it gets hazier, start asking the detailed questions above (what, when, under what circumstances) and again no one has clear answers.. The total lack of clarity, of a charter, of a code of conduct that the public is made aware of is the issue I am talking about, if you say one exists, lets see it !! The system must have rules.

What about work permit law ?? What about carrying passports or ID law ?? What about 10s of different things which are just low level violations.. Who gets to make that choice ??

Until it is precisely spelled out, on a national level, with clarity (something I dont see happening) then it shouldnt exist. Thats step 1, it requires the consent of the governed or it has no legitimacy. Just adhoc 'give it a go and see' isnt good enough.

[FolkGuitar]

More embellishing, FG. It seems obvious that "the rest of Thailand" does not agree with you from the posts in this thread.

You're probably right. After all, most of Thailand posts here. Again, I congratulate you for having the guts to stand up and speak your peace, even if it flies in the face of reality.

[FolkGuitar]

What facts that I have would you like me to produce? I'm not the one stating that ALL the Volunteers are corrupt.

Where do you see Volunteers picking and choosing? What makes you think this is what is going on, rather than their being told what to do?

1) Every volunteer policeman is breaking the law every time they volunteer.. Even the long standing senior TVPs who have been doing this for years acknowledge this.. How can someone who is breaking the law be an enforcer of the law ??

Secondly it isnt that every one of them is corrupt.. Its that the system lacks checks and balances, it lacks controls, it lacks even the most rudimentary of clarity on rights and responsibilities.. This lack of checks and balances has allowed a few to overstep boundaries or act in a corrupt way, without problems. Its the lack of checks and balances thats the issue.

2) because I have known and talked to many TVPs.. They readily agree they are not there to enforce helmet law.. They usually deny they are there to patrol nightlife or prostitution laws (despite that actually happening !!) but then start drilling down onto what laws are to be enforced it gets hazier, start asking the detailed questions above (what, when, under what circumstances) and again no one has clear answers.. The total lack of clarity, of a charter, of a code of conduct that the public is made aware of is the issue I am talking about, if you say one exists, lets see it !! The system must have rules.

What about work permit law ?? What about carrying passports or ID law ?? What about 10s of different things which are just low level violations.. Who gets to make that choice ??

Until it is precisely spelled out, on a national level, with clarity (something I dont see happening) then it shouldnt exist. Thats step 1, it requires the consent of the governed or it has no legitimacy. Just adhoc 'give it a go and see' isnt good enough.

1. It happens all the time. In every country of the world. As I said before, it's not the perfect world that you would like.

2. Two of them? Five of them? Out the the several hundred that exist? Yet even they are saying that they are not law enforcers. Yet, you keep insisting that they are. Why?

3. Do you carry your passport? You don't need to. The Powers that Be have already told us that we only need to carry a copy. The Letter of Law may state one thing, but the reality is that eventually many of these laws will be re-worded, and for the moment, may be ignored. Sorry if you don't like that, but again, that's reality for you.

[LivinLOS]

Some questions:

1. Where do you get the idea that the volunteers are able to decide what they are supposed to do, rather than being told what to do by a superior?

2. Why are you surprised that the volunteers (all foreigners hired to deal with other foreigners) do not deal with Thais? That's their job description.

3. Do you imagine that they are just 'let loose' to do what they want to do?

4. What makes you think that they do any 'enforcement?' At least in Chiang Mai, they are not charged with that duty.

1) From talking with them many times, both ones I personally know, ones working the job, and ones answering questions online in forums like this

2) Because if a law enforcer is only able to enforce the law on one segment of society that creates a huge double standard.. A thai can then commit a crime right under their noses and get away with it, while a westerner cannot. Why because actually they dont have these rights to control people only it can be imposed on powerless and right-less farangs.

3) When they are patrolling they have to make judgement calls. There is no national guidelines, no published data, no information or course of redress for those who TVPs are acting against. Despite claiming theres a national system there isnt, one police chief may empower his men to do one thing, another may empower them to do undercover work, another may empower them to pay money in a sting.. This kind of adhoc choice by both the TVPs on duty and the captains (who I know for a fact have little power games and fiefdoms and who has the most pet farang competitions) without clear legal mandates is crazy.

4) Then why the handcuffs ?? Its exactly the same slippery non answers.. No we cant arrest anyone, but if we think its right we can detain them.. Detention prior to arrest being the same thing.

Enforcement is the job of the police.. If they are not enforcing laws they shouldnt be under the control of a police department or be ander the 'police' banner.

[LivinLOS]

1. It happens all the time. In every country of the world. As I said before, it's not the perfect world that you would like.

2. Two of them? Five of them? Out the the several hundred that exist? Yet even they are saying that they are not law enforcers. Yet, you keep insisting that they are. Why?

3. Do you carry your passport? You don't need to. The Powers that Be have already told us that we only need to carry a copy. The Letter of Law may state one thing, but the reality is that eventually many of these laws will be re-worded, and for the moment, may be ignored. Sorry if you don't like that, but again, that's reality for you.

1) It happens all the time in every country.. that amateur foreigners get to play dress up cops and break the law in doing so ?? Really ?? Every country ??

And until such a time as a clear mandate on these issues is achieved I do not give my consent to be policed by these people. The few times they tried it I told them on yer bike..

2) What is the job of the police ?? There is loads of evidence that they have at times been used as law enforcers, why do you constantly deny that this has happened?

3) You just made my point in a nutshell !!! Thailand is riddled with confusing, conflicting, ignored, and flouted laws.. I do not agree that some part time pretend cop gets to decide which ones are important or not. Fighting is important (but we can only arrest the farang !! The thai can resist and run we cant cuff him) but carrying passports isnt.. Not wearing a helmet isnt.. But maybe having a few too many drinks and getting on his scooter is ??

Wheres the lines.. which ones count.. who decides..

Edited May 26, 2015 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

It doesnt matter where it is.. If the system is flawed enough to let scammers and conmen be the boss of a region, the system must be overhauled or shut down. Its fundamentally wrong !!

We are talking about the system.. Not if a few good people exist within it.. I am sure most are simply trying to do good, but the potential for such abuses of power, the lack of controls or redress, and the appeal it has to the kind of people who wish to gain false respectability, and abuse that power, is simply too much.

Theres too much wrong with it, and the evidence is readily available. Just putting your head in the sand and going 'but I didnt see it here' doesnt change the issues.

[LivinLOS]

Most TVP do the right thing

And the ones that dont ??

[TheAppletons]

OMG, the system is broken! Sound the alarm! Run away, run away!