Corruption at all schools

[puchooay]

Okay, many a man has been dumped once she's secure in her new country.

You sure assume a lot, you even know the ages of these people, but it's me who comes off as a cvnt.

Look, if y'all are happy with your illusions of Thailand, go for it.

I just Wikied Thai Internet censorship. Have a look! Now there's a progressive nation (kingdom)! Want to know what's censored here? Nothing!

There are two activities I as a foreigner can't participate in; I can't vote or run for political office. How about you? Is everything you own in your wife's name?

Sadly you give yourself away. If you were half as educated as you make out, you would realise that the title "third world" is severly outdated and indeed no longer vald.

Feel free to have a go at something that has obviously got you in the past. Got bitten did you?

Your last question also shows you up. Read up on ownership rules before you gob off.

From reading a previous post I can only assume you are living, maybe partly, in America. No censorship in the gold ole US of A eh?????????

Edited June 24, 2015 by puchooay

[lostinisaan]

Okay, many a man has been dumped once she's secure in her new country.

You sure assume a lot, you even know the ages of these people, but it's me who comes off as a cvnt.

Look, if y'all are happy with your illusions of Thailand, go for it.

I just Wikied Thai Internet censorship. Have a look! Now there's a progressive nation (kingdom)! Want to know what's censored here? Nothing!

There are two activities I as a foreigner can't participate in; I can't vote or run for political office. How about you? Is everything you own in your wife's name?

There's a third activity you're allowed to participate in. .

[1900]

^^

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong

Thailand was actually good to me. That's because I never married a local and never went into business.

I haven't lived in the USA since 1980.

The Third World still exists, although having a foggy criteria, it's only PC that attempted to change the definition. A "developing nation" is a clear definition to you?

There's book you have to read, I can't post the title cause it's censored in Thailand and anyone caught with that book is good for 25 years in The Big Tiger . Now that's what I call development!

If, as a foreigner, you weren't filthy rich you wouldn't be wanted there at all, except for one fact; parents want NES in EPs. Were that not the case you'd be exported. For what reasons could The Kingdom possibly want foreigners, other than 30-day tourists?

They look at your watch, at your shoes and with those clues know all there is to know about you. Except of course for the educated Thais .. and what's their per capita,

1 in 10,000?

Edited June 24, 2015 by 1900

[SlyAnimal]

Please keep it civil and on topic guys, as this thread is starting to head down a slippery slope

[1900]

Oh you really got me with that one. I think I'll just slink on outa here.

[aarontendo]

I have to be honest, I'm with 1900 on the passing kids thing when they are obviously failing. If nothing else, I think it's a bad professional practice to take with you and assuredly if teachers and administrators back our relative home countries it would not be looked favorably upon. Let's not forget that several Atlanta teachers are facing prison times for, in essence, fabricating student scores and helping them cheat.

When in Rome bleh, often used as an excuse for abuse. I passed the kids last year and felt really awkward doing so. I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to do it again this year.

Final thought, and perhaps a test for this. It's not acceptable in Thailand either, merely within the educational circle. I've brought it up to the gf, her sister, their friends. All were surprised when I told them I have to pass children, they swear up and down that at their government schools they were allowed to fail. They also said oh you work private...so in essence Thai people understand the school corruption is such that only people who pay are guaranteed a pass. Please feel free to do some mental gymnastics to justify this, I'd love to hear it as I'm completely baffled.

Edited June 25, 2015 by aarontendo

[SlyAnimal]

Some posts have been removed for personal attacks (after being cautioned to not do so).

[casualbiker]

Censored where? Why waffle so much?

I own everything I have here including my wife's motorcycle. All in my name!

[casualbiker]

Aarontendo. Unfortunately the no fail was initialised in 2001 (I think) one of Thaksin's brainwaves. It was about the same time as the US " leave no kids behind " thing by GW Bush.

Before that kids could and were sent down a year.. In some (not many) it can happen now as well because the rules were amended in 2007. But schools are chasing students and ratings so it doesn't happen often.

[aarontendo]

Aarontendo. Unfortunately the no fail was initialised in 2001 (I think) one of Thaksin's brainwaves. It was about the same time as the US " leave no kids behind " thing by GW Bush.

Before that kids could and were sent down a year.. In some (not many) it can happen now as well because the rules were amended in 2007. But schools are chasing students and ratings so it doesn't happen often.

Ah gotcha, makes a lot more sense now why people my age here are confused on it. Thanks for that =)

[1900]

You guys probably already know Thailand has an incredibly high literacy rate. Kind of begs the question, how do they define literacy. As far as the number of years a kid stays in school is probably way higher than say, Mexico. But most important is what's retained and maybe how well deductive reasoning is employed in their life times. That's where Thais fail.

IMO you could use that popular Thai expression, you think too much, as a window to their mind set. Detrimental to Mexican Culture is, ni modo, that's just how it goes. "The police searched our house without a warrant and stole my mother's jewelry .. ni modo." Defeatist don't get far in life do they. The two countries, to me, have a lot in common.

These features aren't really a Thai thing, or a Mexican thing, they are a tossed salad of their history, their religion, their legal system, their kinship system and most of all, poverty.

THE most important feature of Asia I learned in my years there is something not so astounding, China IS Asia. All those other little nation there about are suburbs.

[zeichen]

1900, I think that your logic and reasoning skills have deteriorated in this thread. Your last post is so convoluted I don't even know what the topic of this thread is about.

The problem that I have with what I have read by some is that because there are teachers that do corrupt things, the whole school and educational system is corrupt. There are many good school. There are many bad schools. There are good teachers in bad schools and bad teachers in good schools. That is a global thing.

If you have taught in your home country, I would imagine that you would have many things to complain about as well. I get tired of the broad stroke generalizations about Thais, their culture and their education. If you were a student here and abroad, then you have something to judge it on. But being a fringe teacher on the edge of the system which frankly most are, the perspective is limited.

Though there are many things wrong in the Thai education system there must be some things right as there are many Thai educated people who live good lives that are productive and intelligent. Not everyone that is successful studied abroad and many of those that did study abroad still studied here for the majority of their education.

"THE most important feature of Asia I learned in my years there is something not so astounding, China IS Asia. All those other little nation there about are suburbs."

You are a racist troll and nothing short of that. Though China has had major influence on the world especially other countries in Asia, each country is unique with its own set of problems, and benefits.

Most of what people complain about the Thai education system, I have experienced in the US, China, South Korea and Japan.

You don't think that US teachers get bonuses when their students succeed? You would be mistaken. School's budget under Bush were tied to their regional testing scores. Most schools required teachers to focus on testing prep rather than the curriculum.

Complaining and pointing fingers comparing what you think your home country does and what the Thai system does isn't going to solve any problems.

I know most foreign teachers here pat themselves on the back on their own superiority, but frankly some of the drawing lines in the sand that people talk about does nothing. I had one colleague that refused to do proper lessons or prep because the school didn't have a library. "Without a library, it isn't a proper school so why should I bother working?"

Those that work within the system instead of fighting and complaining actually do more than the whiners who yell about corruption and refuse to compromise.

[1900]

Your last post is so convoluted I don't even know

Key words being I don't even know. No, you don't know. I don't talk like you, get it?

You don't think that US teachers get bonuses when their students succeed? You would be mistaken.

Did somebody tell you I never taught in the USA? Yes, I got a bonus once, a toaster and two tickets to the fireman's ball.

Complaining and pointing fingers comparing what you think your home country does and what the Thai system does isn't going to solve any problems.

Please help me, I don't know what my home country is, been living in Mexico for half my adult life. No, TEFL and it's studies and conclusions isn't an American invent, started in GB known as TESOL back in the day. . Good projection there tho.

I always hate it when posters take a paragraph sentence by sentence and criticize. There's a lot more but it's boring to those not concerned, so I'll stop. URL2 right?

[zeichen]

Sorry if you felt that I was talking to you. I was addressing re-occurring sentiment in this thread. But obviously you are so full of yourself, you think this song is about you.

Though I addressed a few things that you wrote. I didn't actually write my post in response to you.

As to your other snide comments, I will leave them be. You do realize that education is more than just English teaching right? Because I don't see how you take my comment about western educational practices and automatically go to TEFL. OH, FYI TESOL is Canadian not Great Britain.

Funny how you don't have very many likes on this thread. Perhaps try trolling somewhere else.

[1900]

Sorry if you felt that I was talking to you.

Oh, I'm sorry, I missed that. Stupid me, I thought I saw my screen name as the first word in your rant.

[zeichen]

yes, perhaps you should have read the second sentence

"The problem that I have with what I have read by some"

Some indicates more than one. Do I need to write it in Spanish for you to understand?

Funny what you call a rant others call a well formed argument.

But now you have succeeded what you originally attended and that is to make the conversation about you.

Obviously you are a troll.

[Blackfox]

yes, perhaps you should have read the second sentence

"The problem that I have with what I have read by some"

Some indicates more than one. Do I need to write it in Spanish for you to understand?

Funny what you call a rant others call a well formed argument.

But now you have succeeded what you originally attended and that is to make the conversation about you.

Obviously you are a troll.

Zeichen; couldn't agree more.

This troll is a thread killer.

[1900]

Funny what you call a rant others call a well formed argument.

Others? I saw that move. The others were ghosts, and so are yours.

Now wouldn't this forum be better if we were all the same .. no room for irony. That's the ticket!

Edited June 25, 2015 by 1900

[losworld]

If you want to get rich in Thailand get in the ed biz. Heads of gov schools principals etc. driving new benz. Controlling the food courts. Taking bribes to let kids in school. There is no end to this lowlife corruption in this important field.

[1900]

Zeichen; couldn't agree more.

This troll is a thread killer.

Mods, come quick this troll is a thread killer! Mods? Where are you? I need you. Mods?

Corruption in all schools: Let me see, yes in a nation world-famous for corruption it just might show up in educational institutions. In Mexico you can buy any degree you wish, don't even have to attend class'.

I view their corruption as I regard two men in the act of love making .. don't really care what they do as long as I don't have to watch or participate. And that again is my point; be corrupted, be a snake, be self-centered, greedy and detached, but don't demand an invited guest join in if it's counter to everything he holds dear.

Of course in a nation founded in dishonesty, that's any nation, corruption is an every day part of life, it's not negative. So to call a nation corrupt shouldn't be any sort of insult, nothing to which they should take offense to. No matter how pungent our observations are of a nation the fact remains; social evolution favors those who govern in ways suited to their way of life. It's only when a country's social system fails can we be sure they weren't the fittest and didn't survive. Actually Thailand is doing just fine .. so far.

[zeichen]

"but don't demand an invited guest join in if it's counter to everything he holds dear."

I know that you are full of yourself, but just a slight wake up call. No one invited you. You asked permission to come here and you are not missed when you go home.

If you want to work abroad or anywhere, you need to work within the system. You cannot tell people that they are stupid, ignorant, etc because they do things differently.

"Heads of gov schools principals etc. driving new benz."

My neighbor was the head of a government school and he lives a normal middle class life. He might of took bribes but if he did, there isn't anything in his life that would show it. However I seriously doubt he has ever done a corrupt thing in his life. Him and his wife are some of the greatest people I have ever known.

I think the only problem with corruption is that the average person accepts it not that they do it.

[Blackfox]

Two cracking good posts above and 1900; you are quite right.

I understand Zeichen also.

I'm not in education and I don't have children but I immerse myself in life here.

There are some very sound respectable people I know also within the education system, albeit rare.....which is disappointing.

My choice is optimism, and I think the new generation are getting "it" and will perhaps start a little catalyst for change.

You are correct 1900; Thailand nevertheless is doing just fine…and will continue to do so.

[SlyAnimal]

There is definitely corruption within the system, but not everyone involved is corrupt and so, for the sake of avoiding pointless arguments, please quantify statements with phrases like "Most" or "Many" or "Some", rather than tarring all with the same brush by saying "All" or "every" etc when referring to the corruption within the system.

Often there are misconceptions from us, as foreigners, where we don't understand the Thai systems and simply believe that the systems in our home countries are better, thus should be used instead (Despite most of us not having a wealth of experience regarding the inner workings of schools in our home country).

Often the systems within our home countries are better, but one person, isn't going to fight the system and culture of an entire country and win. Instead they just come off as an unco-operative stick in the mud.

Working within the system is the only path to success, and you'll build better relationships with colleagues & decrease stress and frustration along the way.

Corruption is something which happens, and as westerners we are, under normal circumstances, in no way able to fight it. Particularly as what we actually "see" as corruption, isn't corruption at all to Thai people, it's simply the system.

[1900]

That's good. But when people assume you haven't a set of morals to abide by couldn't that only mean they don't have any?

Of course there are features in life a Thai wouldn't be caught dead doing. And then others, like beating women and losing the family savings betting on Beta Fish that are justifiable. So sure, we all live by rules, stoning women and beheading a guy cause he had a snack on Ramadan are all okay, somewhere in the World.

This is the dilemma .. like on Star Trek, you go to distant planets, observe and never nose into what's going on for fear of changing something. They teach you that as well in anthropology, especially courses in ethnology. A good example are the Yanomamo in the jungles of S.A. Here is their method of birth control: You have too many children already so the father picks up the new born by his little feet, swings him until his head bashes into a tree trunk, then hurls him over the compound's wall where he's eaten by the dogs who congregate there waiting for a meal. That's the stuff that makes me want to stay home.

We all have a built-in sense of justice. If you are one who is over-sensitive to injustice you're going to face issues living in certain cultures. I did, especially in China, more than Thailand.

Funny thing, I don't go to church, probably don't even believe in God, but living in a Christian society, as I do now, is somehow better. Mexicans are expert scammers and liars but they know it's wrong, maybe even go to confession to get their deeds off their chests. Thais are good for confessing, even for apologizing. But when you're Farang (not Thai) it seems you have less reason for being counted in. Especially when you're not spending money like a drunken sailor. Just an opinion.

[bangmai]

the economy of Mexico will be larger than Russia's by 2050...http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-23/mexico-to-overtake-russia-by-2050-as-u-s-slides BTW, those teachers in Atlanta are more than facing jail; they are in jail. The judge only gave one of them time to report to prison (8.5 months pregnant), the others were sent directly to jail.

[zeichen]

Of course there are features in life a Thai wouldn't be caught dead doing. And then others, like beating women and losing the family savings betting on Beta Fish that are justifiable. So sure, we all live by rules, stoning women and beheading a guy cause he had a snack on Ramadan are all okay, somewhere in the World.

...

Thais are good for confessing, even for apologizing. But when you're Farang (not Thai) it seems you have less reason for being counted in. Especially when you're not spending money like a drunken sailor. Just an opinion.

You really think Thai people think that spousal abuse and gambling are acceptable? Thai people aren't any different than any other human, they do things that are wrong and know it. They don't believe that any of those things are appropriate.

Comparing an indigenous culture from South America that kills unwanted babies to Thai people who may or may not bend the rules for their own gain are quite different.

Though you are right cultures have practices that are accepted locally but not globally. None of the examples given in this thread are accepted by Thais. People get arrested for corruption all the time and local people often complain about corruption with their friends. One university professor here lost her title and position because of her ineptness and corruption. The difference is that it isn't Thai custom to protest every little thing and talk in outrage. Sometimes that bothers me when people don't stop things that they know are wrong, but that will change in time.

Some people find they relate better to other cultures. It is clear that you have a connection with Mexico but Asia in a whole is antithetical to you. However, what you seem to be doing is stating that it is us (the local culture) that are wrong and not understanding that it is your perspective that needs to change not these cultures.

There are many qualified and highly ethical teachers living in China, Thailand etc. that don't fight every step of the way. I don't need to be corrupt to work in a corrupt system. I just learn how to live without conflict.

As for grading, I typically use whatever lowest grade the school allows and tell the students flat out that is a F to me. Though they pass they are the lowest and really need to get extra help from me. Not everyone has to get an A to pass. I make an A even harder to get. My last school a 50% was passing and that was the lowest.

I love your example of how a student failed over and over. You do realize that you are the one that failed right and not the student? I had students that were mentally disabled and really had an impossible time passing any standard exam, so I scaffolded it to meet their abilities and they passed. The students still proved to have the knowledge but the manner of the assessment was different.

For example if you are teaching a story, having students with lower language skills to a story board drawing pictures and writing a brief description 1-2 words up to a sentence would still convey their knowledge of basic plot.

Did you use a rubric and give it to the students to let them know exactly what you were grading them on. Did you grade them on things that you didn't cover in class? Things that you assumed should be basic knowledge?

Really sounds like you failed here and are blaming everyone but yourself.

FYI the reason that I just quote from the text rather than use the quote function is that it is blocky and takes up too much room. I find it aesthetically unpleasing. It isn't because I don't know how to do it.

[Jessi]

At a large EP in Suratthani I had two Ss who failed the final in science and hadn't shown enough production to even consider any sort of "over-ride".

The admin told me to shorten the exam to 20 questions, I did that. Still failed. Then it was down to 10 questions, failed. Then I see the two in her office, they're making kaleidoscopes from colored paper. I ask what they're doing, " This is their final exam", she said.

At the end of the semester I was told to give the Ss a passing mark, in the middle 70s. I refused. I was told my final check would not be ready until these two passed with a 75. I refused, went to a lawyer and case was closed within the next two weeks. My contract wasn't renewed .. oh boo hoo.

Good on you. Yes you did win because you showed these slime bags that you cant be bought.

What is going on in the education system here is the reason that we have dumb Doctors etc etc the list goes on, only the wealthy will get the top jobs.

[aarontendo]

At a large EP in Suratthani I had two Ss who failed the final in science and hadn't shown enough production to even consider any sort of "over-ride".

The admin told me to shorten the exam to 20 questions, I did that. Still failed. Then it was down to 10 questions, failed. Then I see the two in her office, they're making kaleidoscopes from colored paper. I ask what they're doing, " This is their final exam", she said.

At the end of the semester I was told to give the Ss a passing mark, in the middle 70s. I refused. I was told my final check would not be ready until these two passed with a 75. I refused, went to a lawyer and case was closed within the next two weeks. My contract wasn't renewed .. oh boo hoo.

Good on you. Yes you did win because you showed these slime bags that you cant be bought.

What is going on in the education system here is the reason that we have dumb Doctors etc etc the list goes on, only the wealthy will get the top jobs.

I've already commented on this point, but just want to add something. In talks with my colleagues, they asked if I "wanted" to fail children. Absolutely not. I do, however, think it is nigh abusive to continue to push a student through year after year when they are gaining little from it. Instead, yes they should get socially promoted but also by allowing one to fail a class, for example English, they can then be put into a lower level class or get additional supports. The goal is not to shame a student but to instead give them what they need and when they need it.

At my previous school I made the point that we had a lot of M3 students who I felt weren't even P3 level English. Why not start failing them and getting them into classes to get them, if not caught up, at least moving! Perhaps they don't graduate with an M6 level of English but P6...it's something, right?

Of course, this costs a bit of money to do, as you'll need staff to work with those students, more likely smaller classes and much more contact time with parents and students even outside of school.

I look back at my own Spanish classes in high school, there were people who didn't pass their third year of Spanish. They sat it again their final year. No harm no foul, they got what they needed just a little later. Having said that, if I recall in my high school we only had half days senior year if we had passed our classes so there was some wiggle-room to catch up...

[1900]

Of course there are features in life a Thai wouldn't be caught dead doing. And then others, like beating women and losing the family savings betting on Beta Fish that are justifiable. So sure, we all live by rules, stoning women and beheading a guy cause he had a snack on Ramadan are all okay, somewhere in the World.

...

Thais are good for confessing, even for apologizing. But when you're Farang (not Thai) it seems you have less reason for being counted in. Especially when you're not spending money like a drunken sailor. Just an opinion.

You really think Thai people think that spousal abuse and gambling are acceptable? Thai people aren't any different than any other human, they do things that are wrong and know it. They don't believe that any of those things are appropriate.

Comparing an indigenous culture from South America that kills unwanted babies to Thai people who may or may not bend the rules for their own gain are quite different.

Though you are right cultures have practices that are accepted locally but not globally. None of the examples given in this thread are accepted by Thais. People get arrested for corruption all the time and local people often complain about corruption with their friends. One university professor here lost her title and position because of her ineptness and corruption. The difference is that it isn't Thai custom to protest every little thing and talk in outrage. Sometimes that bothers me when people don't stop things that they know are wrong, but that will change in time.

Some people find they relate better to other cultures. It is clear that you have a connection with Mexico but Asia in a whole is antithetical to you. However, what you seem to be doing is stating that it is us (the local culture) that are wrong and not understanding that it is your perspective that needs to change not these cultures.

There are many qualified and highly ethical teachers living in China, Thailand etc. that don't fight every step of the way. I don't need to be corrupt to work in a corrupt system. I just learn how to live without conflict.

As for grading, I typically use whatever lowest grade the school allows and tell the students flat out that is a F to me. Though they pass they are the lowest and really need to get extra help from me. Not everyone has to get an A to pass. I make an A even harder to get. My last school a 50% was passing and that was the lowest.

I love your example of how a student failed over and over. You do realize that you are the one that failed right and not the student? I had students that were mentally disabled and really had an impossible time passing any standard exam, so I scaffolded it to meet their abilities and they passed. The students still proved to have the knowledge but the manner of the assessment was different.

For example if you are teaching a story, having students with lower language skills to a story board drawing pictures and writing a brief description 1-2 words up to a sentence would still convey their knowledge of basic plot.

Did you use a rubric and give it to the students to let them know exactly what you were grading them on. Did you grade them on things that you didn't cover in class? Things that you assumed should be basic knowledge?

Really sounds like you failed here and are blaming everyone but yourself.

FYI the reason that I just quote from the text rather than use the quote function is that it is blocky and takes up too much room. I find it aesthetically unpleasing. It isn't because I don't know how to do it.

Do me a favor, when you're scrolling through threads looking for something to post on, please, if you happen to see my nic or avatar, just keep scrolling. Thanks in advance.

[bangmai]

Too bad the Thai schools aren't honest and trustworthy like the farang TEFL providers.