Thailand Brit murder suspects 'still waiting' on evidence review

[catsanddogs]

Re post 891 from JDinasia -

Blimey. This man IS desperate for the B2 to go down for these crimes. And so many many posts from him. I'm beginning to get suspicious now. Doesn't feel good.

Get as suspicious as you want. I am far from desperate for the 2 Burmese defendants to go down for the rape and murders. I do think that they are guilty but that's for the court to decide.

Some posters here continuously drag out conspiracy theories that have been debunked, and "seem desperate for" people who have been cleared" to go down for these crimes.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial, and just pump out theory after theory.

Then there's the others who think that the 2 Burmese defendants are involved in the crime, but are just playing games with it. They are as bad as the one's so desperately fixated with individuals who have been cleared, simply due to their intellectual dishonesty.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial,

Not much point in speculating after the trial is there? Not much point in sitting back in our chairs and saying 'Hmm - wonder if those Burmese chaps that were put to death were innocent? Oh well too late now, onwards and upwards'.

[JLCrab]

Re post 891 from JDinasia -

Blimey. This man IS desperate for the B2 to go down for these crimes. And so many many posts from him. I'm beginning to get suspicious now. Doesn't feel good.

Get as suspicious as you want. I am far from desperate for the 2 Burmese defendants to go down for the rape and murders. I do think that they are guilty but that's for the court to decide.

Some posters here continuously drag out conspiracy theories that have been debunked, and "seem desperate for" people who have been cleared" to go down for these crimes.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial, and just pump out theory after theory.

Then there's the others who think that the 2 Burmese defendants are involved in the crime, but are just playing games with it. They are as bad as the one's so desperately fixated with individuals who have been cleared, simply due to their intellectual dishonesty.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial,

Not much point in speculating after the trial is there? Not much point in sitting back in our chairs and saying 'Hmm - wonder if those Burmese chaps that were put to death were innocent? Oh well too late now, onwards and upwards'.

If the Court in Samui were to find a guilty verdict and issue a death sentence, there would be one if not two lengthy appeals and a possible application for a Royal Pardon.

So you'd time for lots more speculatin'.

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Thailand

[sartoric]

Re post 891 from JDinasia -

Blimey. This man IS desperate for the B2 to go down for these crimes. And so many many posts from him. I'm beginning to get suspicious now. Doesn't feel good.

Get as suspicious as you want. I am far from desperate for the 2 Burmese defendants to go down for the rape and murders. I do think that they are guilty but that's for the court to decide.

Some posters here continuously drag out conspiracy theories that have been debunked, and "seem desperate for" people who have been cleared" to go down for these crimes.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial, and just pump out theory after theory.

Then there's the others who think that the 2 Burmese defendants are involved in the crime, but are just playing games with it. They are as bad as the one's so desperately fixated with individuals who have been cleared, simply due to their intellectual dishonesty.

They ignore the request from the victim's families that speculation cease until after the trial,

Not much point in speculating after the trial is there? Not much point in sitting back in our chairs and saying 'Hmm - wonder if those Burmese chaps that were put to death were innocent? Oh well too late now, onwards and upwards'.

If the Court in Samui were to find a guilty verdict and issue a death sentence, there would be one if not two lengthy appeals and a possible application for a Royal Pardon.

So you'd time for lots more speculatin'.

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Thailand

While two young Burmese men spend their time in a Thai jail.

People of influence have been bailed, or allowed/assisted to cross borders.

Fair ? Any justice ?

[JLCrab]

Why don't you wait and see what happens on Samui first before you start your protestations.

[sartoric]

Why don't you wait and see what happens on Samui first before you start your protestations.

I have no choice other than to wait on the results of the trial, the same as the two Burmese men.

I can voice an opinion on an open forum, they can't.

[JLCrab]

Why don't you wait and see what happens on Samui first before you start your protestations.

I have no choice other than to wait on the results of the trial, the same as the two Burmese men.

I can voice an opinion on an open forum, they can't.

They have an experienced legal team representing them. They don't need to express an opinion.

[stephenterry]

It's what's going to happen. I can't see any way that the Thai judicial system would back down from accepting the prosecution's case, and convicting the B2 in Samui. Why? This thread says it all. Refusal of access to DNA records until the trial starts makes it an uneven playing field for the defence.

Then, as JLC says, it's a long haul through the appeal courts - that's if the defence's funds are sufficient.

And what does this mean? Taken from criminal procedure in Thailand. ［TheCriminalProcedureCodeSection 173/1］For a speedy,continuous and impartial trial in the casewhere the accused makes no statement or makes a negativestatement,if any of the parties makes a request to the Court or the Court deems suitable, the Court may notify the parties of the designated date for the evidence to be inspected,not less than ten days prior to the date as designated for taking of evidence.

[JLCrab]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

[stephenterry]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

Apart from not responding to my genuine question, re the legal para, yes, it is my opinion that the defence will hit a brick wall at THIS court. Assuming that the defence will be permitted to review the DNA evidence once the trial commences, it would be a challenge to plough through (what is believed to be) c300 pages of DNA reports, independently test the samples, and reach any conclusion before the end of this trial. Their only hope is to try and discredit the chain of custody from the initial collection to the final results. And that could be tough.

However, I could be wrong, and snow could fall in Samui.

[JLCrab]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

Apart from not responding to my genuine question, re the legal para, yes, it is my opinion that the defence will hit a brick wall at THIS court. Assuming that the defence will be permitted to review the DNA evidence once the trial commences, it would be a challenge to plough through (whathon, the lead attorney, as if you know all this and he doesn't.is believed to be) c300 pages of DNA reports, independently test the samples, and reach any conclusion before the end of this trial. Their only hope is to try and discredit the chain of custody from the initial collection to the final results. And that could be tough.

However, I could be wrong, and snow could fall in Samui.

You don't show much respect for Kuhn Nakhon Chomphuchat, the lead attorney, as if you know all this and he doesn't.

[jdinasia]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

Apart from not responding to my genuine question, re the legal para, yes, it is my opinion that the defence will hit a brick wall at THIS court. Assuming that the defence will be permitted to review the DNA evidence once the trial commences, it would be a challenge to plough through (what is believed to be) c300 pages of DNA reports, independently test the samples, and reach any conclusion before the end of this trial. Their only hope is to try and discredit the chain of custody from the initial collection to the final results. And that could be tough.

However, I could be wrong, and snow could fall in Samui.

Didn't you say that you think that the 2 Burmese defendants were involved in some way? Pretty hard to defend against that.

While the DNA will be significant the rest of the evidence is damning enough to likely convict.

[catsanddogs]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

Apart from not responding to my genuine question, re the legal para, yes, it is my opinion that the defence will hit a brick wall at THIS court. Assuming that the defence will be permitted to review the DNA evidence once the trial commences, it would be a challenge to plough through (what is believed to be) c300 pages of DNA reports, independently test the samples, and reach any conclusion before the end of this trial. Their only hope is to try and discredit the chain of custody from the initial collection to the final results. And that could be tough.

However, I could be wrong, and snow could fall in Samui.

Didn't you say that you think that the 2 Burmese defendants were involved in some way? Pretty hard to defend against that.

While the DNA will be significant the rest of the evidence is damning enough to likely convict.

The rest of the evidence blah blah. Oh that old chestnut again you mean being the phone. Groan.

[JLCrab]

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

[stephenterry]

Re 916 - JLC. You don't show much respect for Kuhn Nakhon Chomphuchat, the lead attorney, as if you know all this and he doesn't.

I'm sure he does. But what can he do when the cards are stacked against him? Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

[JLCrab]

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

Will they now have had enough time to perfect it...?

Sure -- they use the same hack squad that deleted the passenger manifest on the Nok Air computers.

[stephenterry]

So Mr.Terry does not believe that the Thai defense legal team would be capable, upon cross-examination, of making a total laughing stock of the prosecution's witnesses should their testimony be perjured or the evidence fabricated.

Whatever requests to the Court made by the defense as to access to evidence DNA or otherwise, they knew in advance the discovery procedures in Thailand.

Apart from not responding to my genuine question, re the legal para, yes, it is my opinion that the defence will hit a brick wall at THIS court. Assuming that the defence will be permitted to review the DNA evidence once the trial commences, it would be a challenge to plough through (what is believed to be) c300 pages of DNA reports, independently test the samples, and reach any conclusion before the end of this trial. Their only hope is to try and discredit the chain of custody from the initial collection to the final results. And that could be tough.

However, I could be wrong, and snow could fall in Samui.

Didn't you say that you think that the 2 Burmese defendants were involved in some way? Pretty hard to defend against that.

While the DNA will be significant the rest of the evidence is damning enough to likely convict.

The rest of the evidence blah blah. Oh that old chestnut again you mean being the phone. Groan.

As none of us have privy to the defence's case, the veracity of any 'other evidence' has yet to be tested and ascertained or rejected. So to call it 'damning' is just your opinion at this stage. The same goes for my opinion on the B2's involvement, and yes, the defence need to come up with a verifiable alibi.

What can't be challenged is the veracity of the DNA until it has been independently tested and proven one way or another. If the court accepts that, then 'other evidence' could play a part if it is linked.

[mmh8]

Apparently their is a decision to be made on if using actual goats is unbuddhist, officially there are some Rohinya that can be fitted up and no one will care

[stephenterry]

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

Will they now have had enough time to perfect it...?

Sure -- they use the same hack squad that deleted the passenger manifest on the Nok Air computers.

If they have evidence of the B2 actually committing the crimes, or leaving the crime scene after the crimes, it will be a slam dunk. But, as the case was referred back to the RTP three times, I would reason that the CCTV would be circumstantial, at best, especially as the quality is questionable - even the identity of the running man can't be established and proven.

[JLCrab]

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

Will they now have had enough time to perfect it...?

Sure -- they use the same hack squad that deleted the passenger manifest on the Nok Air computers.

If they have evidence of the B2 actually committing the crimes, or leaving the crime scene after the crimes, it will be a slam dunk. But, as the case was referred back to the RTP three times, I would reason that the CCTV would be circumstantial, at best, especially as the quality is questionable - even the identity of the running man can't be established and proven.

That's what the newspaper said December 27, 2014 after the case was accepted by the prosecution..

[stephenterry]

If they have evidence of the B2 actually committing the crimes, or leaving the crime scene after the crimes, it will be a slam dunk. But, as the case was referred back to the RTP three times, I would reason that the CCTV would be circumstantial, at best, especially as the quality is questionable - even the identity of the running man can't be established and proven.

That's what the newspaper said December 27, 2014 after the case was accepted by the prosecution..

Well it took them three attempts to find some CCTV that could incriminate the B2. That's 3 months after the victims died. My opinion stays.

[JLCrab]

If they have evidence of the B2 actually committing the crimes, or leaving the crime scene after the crimes, it will be a slam dunk. But, as the case was referred back to the RTP three times, I would reason that the CCTV would be circumstantial, at best, especially as the quality is questionable - even the identity of the running man can't be established and proven.

That's what the newspaper said December 27, 2014 after the case was accepted by the prosecution..

Well it took them three attempts to find some CCTV that could incriminate the B2. That's 3 months after the victims died. My opinion stays.

“Well, all I know is what I read in the papers.” -- Will Rogers, 1923

Maybe the Prosecution is so screwed up that they would enter into evidence video that looks like a polar bear in a snowstorm.

[jdinasia]

If they have evidence of the B2 actually committing the crimes, or leaving the crime scene after the crimes, it will be a slam dunk. But, as the case was referred back to the RTP three times, I would reason that the CCTV would be circumstantial, at best, especially as the quality is questionable - even the identity of the running man can't be established and proven.

That's what the newspaper said December 27, 2014 after the case was accepted by the prosecution..

Well it took them three attempts to find some CCTV that could incriminate the B2. That's 3 months after the victims died. My opinion stays.

Didn't you say before that the 2 Burmese defendants were involved in your opinion?

[boomerangutang]

Note - airlines in Thailand keep records per IATA and local rules.

Note - airports have cameras.

Note - airplanes have passengers

Good. let's see the data on that flight. See my note below......

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

Will they now have had enough time to perfect it...?

Sure -- they use the same hack squad that deleted the passenger manifest on the Nok Air computers.

Do you know anything about the passenger list or video (departure/arrival) re; that morning's flight? Or are you just trying again to be witty? That data could be a key component of this case, and that's why I didn't initially mention the Nok Air issue. The reason being: RTP and/or H's people could talk to Nok Air and have that data scrubbed. The cat's out of the bag now. Let's see whether; A. any official looked in to that issue B. what they found and/or C. will it be yet another hidden/erased clue - to add to the hundreds of issues already hidden/erased/unsought/unthought about by the RTP and/or the H's people.

[boomerangutang]

No one here thinks the two poor kids, who were sleeping at the time of the gang rape and double murder were involved

Only those with an ox that has been gored would defend the unaccused who wait for the hanging so it can be business as usual at the bar,

If it isn't already

You are wrong, several posters who have defended the 2 Burmese defendants at one point or another have said that they think the 2 Burmese defendants were involved.

I think that they were the only people involved, others have said other things that includes their involvement.

There can be a difference between 'being involved' and being a murderer or rapist. One does not necessarily prove the other. With all due respect to the self-appointed Thai PM, I differ from his opinion that: 'if the DNA (in Hannah) matches the Burmese, then they must be the murderers.' Granted, that would be a likely supposition, but it's not ironclad. There is the possibility (albeit remote) that Hannah had semi-consensual sex with one or two men before she was murdered by ....others. We don't know, and may never know. These are the sorts of questions we look to the RTP and Brit experts to dig in to, but they're essentially worthless in this case.

Also, if it's true that one or both Burmese lifted a pair of sunglasses and/or a mobile phone from the crime scene, that in itself, is not proof of murder or rape.

People admitting guilt for a crime they didn't do is somewhat rare, but not unheard of. The same people will likely add details which may not sinc with what investigators find at the crime scene. There are many sad tales of authorities, in their zeal to convict someone (plus pressure from higher-ups to convict) - accept any and all admissions of guilt - and often don't do a professional job of verifying evidence in those cases.

When the reenactment went down on the beach, the B2 appeared to not have a clue what to do or where to go. They looked like they were trying to cooperate with authorities. Were the B2 acting clueless for the reenactment? If so, they should get nominated for Oscars.

[thailandchilli]

No one here thinks the two poor kids, who were sleeping at the time of the gang rape and double murder were involved

Only those with an ox that has been gored would defend the unaccused who wait for the hanging so it can be business as usual at the bar,

If it isn't already

You are wrong, several posters who have defended the 2 Burmese defendants at one point or another have said that they think the 2 Burmese defendants were involved.

I think that they were the only people involved, others have said other things that includes their involvement.

The facts are there are very little facts in this case that can be verified, aside from 2 tragic deaths, 2 suspects in jail awaiting trial, what looked to be and was witnessed as being a sham investigation from the start, confusion.

Thai officials refusing independent DNA testing, allegations of corruption, allegations of witness beatings, torture and the list goes on. None of which have been independently investigated to see if they are true or not, infact the RTP refusing to meet the Human rights commission on the torture allegations. With none of the latter proved or not that means you have to take that into account as being a real possibility.

I think most people on here are open to the fact that the B2 may have been involved in some way, or even guilty, with or without others involved or perhaps completely innocent. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is that justice is not currently seen to be being done and that is not only those on TV saying that but as everyone knows a host of authoritiuve bodies.

So for those who really have an open mind on this then they are the ones who carry on asking questions, seeking justice, trying to find out if some of the disturbing allegations are true or not, trying to find out if others may be the sole people responsible or if others were involved or if indeed the B2 were the only people involved.

Nobody can know for sure at this stage. Even if you do believe the B2 were involved that does not mean you are sure, if you are not sure that means they may also be completely innocent, hence justice is needed and called for in every sense.

The Thai officials have not helped in assuring everyone that all is well, that is disturbing.

Those who say wait for the court case all will be revealed, that may be true, but what if it is not? What if we witness something which the world agrees is a travesty of justice. This is not about posters or their opinions (do you believe this, do you believe that) its about human rights for the B2 and justice for them as well as the victims and their families.

[boomerangutang]

The Thai officials have not helped in assuring everyone that all is well, that is disturbing.

Those who say wait for the court case all will be revealed, that may be true, but what if it is not? What if we witness something which the world agrees is a travesty of justice. This is not about posters or their opinions (do you believe this, do you believe that) its about human rights for the B2 and justice for them as well as the victims and their families.

I enlarged the font for a part of the sentence above, because it applies to many issues which have cropped up since the crime. Those of us seeking truth and justice have had our hopes lifted several times, just some examples:

>>>> We were told by RTP (first group, under Panya) that they knew who did the crime and were seeking a key person and were about to arrest him....

>>>> when we heard Brit experts were going to the island to do what they could.....

>>>> We were informed by the Brit Coroner that her office's findings would be published Jan. 6.

>>>> We were informed in April that DNA and other evidence would be re-examined by experts

...... yet: WE WERE ALWAYS LET DOWN ! RTP and other powers-that-be have been scoring 100% in dashing hopes of a fair trial.

So, if you ask me whether the trial will clear things up, and/or whether all pertinent evidence will be allowed to be entered? and/or whether 'discovery' procedures will be honored for evidence? and/or whether evidence will be re-examined by objective experts ? and/or whether the Brit Coroner will do her job and assist her fellow Brits ...... I'll have to say a big fat cynical NO.

To address TC's question ('What if we witness something which the world agrees is a travesty of justice.' ?) my answer is: Thailand doesn't much care. It's more important for the powerful and important people in this case to keep shielding the Headman's people. That's #1. All else, including Thailand's overseas image, is secondary.

[StealthEnergiser]

Note - airlines in Thailand keep records per IATA and local rules.

Note - airports have cameras.

Note - airplanes have passengers

Good. let's see the data on that flight. See my note below......

The Nation article of December 27, 2014 says that the Prosecution will introduce footage from surveillance cameras as evidence.

Will they now have had enough time to perfect it...?

Sure -- they use the same hack squad that deleted the passenger manifest on the Nok Air computers.

Do you know anything about the passenger list or video (departure/arrival) re; that morning's flight? Or are you just trying again to be witty? That data could be a key component of this case, and that's why I didn't initially mention the Nok Air issue. The reason being: RTP and/or H's people could talk to Nok Air and have that data scrubbed. The cat's out of the bag now. Let's see whether; A. any official looked in to that issue B. what they found and/or C. will it be yet another hidden/erased clue - to add to the hundreds of issues already hidden/erased/unsought/unthought about by the RTP and/or the H's people.

I saw it mentioned somewhere that the headman and are very well known by airport staff and could quite easily book under another name so they may not show up on the passenger list and still be able to fly the defendants should request video of people boarding.

[boomerangutang]

Note - airlines in Thailand keep records per IATA and local rules.

Note - airports have cameras.

Note - airplanes have passengers

Do you know anything about the passenger list or video (departure/arrival) re; that morning's flight? Or are you just trying again to be witty? That data could be a key component of this case, and that's why I didn't initially mention the Nok Air issue. The reason being: RTP and/or H's people could talk to Nok Air and have that data scrubbed. The cat's out of the bag now. Let's see whether; A. any official looked in to that issue B. what they found and/or C. will it be yet another hidden/erased clue - to add to the hundreds of issues already hidden/erased/unsought/unthought about by the RTP and/or the H's people.

I saw it mentioned somewhere that the headman and are very well known by airport staff and could quite easily book under another name so they may not show up on the passenger list and still be able to fly. The defendants should request video of people boarding.

Thanks for that bit of info, entirely believable. Indeed, if someone (probably Mon, as he's so adept at fixing things) did that, it would likely have been very soon after that flight. However, video doesn't lie - as easily as it is to fly under an assumed name. I'll bet dollars to donuts there's no CCTV available of passengers boarding or departing from that Nok Air flight.

Also, the defense will probably not touch this issue, because it applies to a person who is not a defendant. The defense isn't dumb, they know, at least as well as we do, how the entire weight of Thai officialdom (who are involved in this case) is doing all they can to shield the H's people. Any mention of NS will readily get stuffed - at the trial. The moment the cop (who out-ranked Panya), decided to appoint himself boss of the investigation, the whole can of worms started souring - and the stink of rotting worms wafts for thousands of miles. Farang press corps are going to make an event out of the trial. Brace yourself, Thai officialdom.

I'd like to see RTP brass seriously disciplined, if it's proven they purposefully skewed or hid data pertaining to this case. Of course, such reprimands could never happen. In the US, among other places, if it's proved a person was incarcerated under knowingly false pretenses, by authorities, that person can successfully sue officials and/or the entity which falsely imprisoned them. Payouts are not uncommon. Again, that an impossibility in Thailand, but one can hope. . . .

[007cableguy]

Note - airlines in Thailand keep records per IATA and local rules.

Note - airports have cameras.

Note - airplanes have passengers

Do you not understand how things work in Thailand?...... All of the above can be sorted for the person with the right amount of money in his envelope!

[berybert]

No one here thinks the two poor kids, who were sleeping at the time of the gang rape and double murder were involved

Only those with an ox that has been gored would defend the unaccused who wait for the hanging so it can be business as usual at the bar,

If it isn't already

You are wrong, several posters who have defended the 2 Burmese defendants at one point or another have said that they think the 2 Burmese defendants were involved.

I think that they were the only people involved, others have said other things that includes their involvement.

You think they were. So that is your opinion based on what you have read or listened to on the radio or seen on the T.V.

Things like running man videos or Noms father saying his son had left the island earlier in the day and his cousin saying he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya are all things you choose to totally ignore as it doesn't fit your agenda.

Yet dodgy DNA and tortured confessions you are happy to accept as proof of guilt.