Buying House In Foreigner Controlled Company Ok?

[astral]

It seems that the rumour that finally foreigner-controlled companies will be able to own one

property with up to 1 Rai of land, has been put to paper.

This is NOT a rumour.

This has been the law for several years.

The catch is that the company has to have invested 40 million baht in Thailand.

I do not know where the other poster got the idea that foreign owned companies are illegal.

There are many.

They just cannot own land, except as stated above.

[number6]

no not ok got it unless youve 40 mill spare

[dsfbrit]

Hi Khun,

...

Jimmy

Thailand is getting more xenophobic by the minute, i wouln't count on it that you will be able to legally own your land and house. Rent/lease is the only sure way.

What your developer probably meant to say is that with the 'right' people and the 'right' tricks it can be registered again. Problem with that is that it wil still be against the law and you have the risk of being kicked out of your house in the future. Not nice when you plan to retire.

Why wait until you paid everything, decorated your house and live there comfortabley in an ignorant is bliss state.

The knock on the door will bring you back to earth again.

Probably you will get a year to sell everything or otherwise it will be property of the crown.

Problem is when that happens, who is going to buy it.

I don't call that an easy retirement, you will worry the rest of your time here. Unless al the money you spend is just peanuts for you.

As i said before, up to you. Just go in with your eyes open and with knowledge of the law, not the law as told by the one who is benifitting from the deal.

It is not for any other reason owners and buyers are getting very nervous and are taking measures to try to protect there property, well actually the property of the 51% shareholders.

Having bought a house through the company route a couple of years ago, like many others,

I read every article about land ownership when the news broke a few months ago.

I have just been reading this thread with some interest.

Certainly when the news came out at first I was expecting problems like that so eloquently put forward by khun Jean.

I decided to sit down quietly, understand all the options and make a decision when I felt I needed to.

Do I need to make a decision yet? Its been several months now since the news about the land ownership / company route has been around.

Does anyone know of any expat that has had the 'knock on the door'? In fact does anyone have any news that perhaps lawyers offices have been investigated (where their staff were used to set up these shell companies). Are there any 'horror' stories at all???

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

[Dragonman]

Hi Khun,

...

Jimmy

Thailand is getting more xenophobic by the minute, i wouln't count on it that you will be able to legally own your land and house. Rent/lease is the only sure way.

What your developer probably meant to say is that with the 'right' people and the 'right' tricks it can be registered again. Problem with that is that it wil still be against the law and you have the risk of being kicked out of your house in the future. Not nice when you plan to retire.

Why wait until you paid everything, decorated your house and live there comfortabley in an ignorant is bliss state.

The knock on the door will bring you back to earth again.

Probably you will get a year to sell everything or otherwise it will be property of the crown.

Problem is when that happens, who is going to buy it.

I don't call that an easy retirement, you will worry the rest of your time here. Unless al the money you spend is just peanuts for you.

As i said before, up to you. Just go in with your eyes open and with knowledge of the law, not the law as told by the one who is benifitting from the deal.

It is not for any other reason owners and buyers are getting very nervous and are taking measures to try to protect there property, well actually the property of the 51% shareholders.

Having bought a house through the company route a couple of years ago, like many others,

I read every article about land ownership when the news broke a few months ago.

I have just been reading this thread with some interest.

Certainly when the news came out at first I was expecting problems like that so eloquently put forward by khun Jean.

I decided to sit down quietly, understand all the options and make a decision when I felt I needed to.

Do I need to make a decision yet? Its been several months now since the news about the land ownership / company route has been around.

Does anyone know of any expat that has had the 'knock on the door'? In fact does anyone have any news that perhaps lawyers offices have been investigated (where their staff were used to set up these shell companies). Are there any 'horror' stories at all???

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Check out www.tropical-living.com/06-09sep/01debate.htm

A good, well researched article.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Why would they get a lower price? The company just sells the land and house to the individual. Just because it is a company versus a individual being a seller, makes no difference on price.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[dsfbrit]

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Why would they get a lower price? The company just sells the land and house to the individual. Just because it is a company versus a individual being a seller, makes no difference on price.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Good question which has forced me into thinking a lot about my basic assumptions which were.

I personally would not want to buy anything I did not fully own. The company route meant that any time in the next 40 years - if I decided to move for whatever reason - I could simply do so.

I figured there were lots of people like me - ie like to own something outright ?

I therefore thought that people who could no longer buy land/house via this company route, would opt for other types of investment ie condo in own name.

- hence bringing down prices of this type of property - if you could sell at all.

A well reasoned argument I am sure you would agree - even if it is way off the beam!

I actually have a Thai wife , so could do the 'land in her name - lease thing', but despite I may be 'flamed' for not wanting to do this - not trust her etc... I just love the fact I can ultimately make the decision myself - I dont mind consulting her - but I dont like the thought she could have the veto over my decision to sell.

So you know of actual cases of farang like me selling their house/land to other farang. What method have the buyers used? lease/usufruct ??

In relation to the other part of my question - Have you actually heard of any horror stories yet about investigations?? I am off to read the Dragonman link so maybe that will tell me all.

From all of us sad confused wrecks who use this site seeking information, I can assure you Sunbelt your feedback is always appreciated.

[dsfbrit]

Hi Khun,

...

Jimmy

Thailand is getting more xenophobic by the minute, i wouln't count on it that you will be able to legally own your land and house. Rent/lease is the only sure way.

What your developer probably meant to say is that with the 'right' people and the 'right' tricks it can be registered again. Problem with that is that it wil still be against the law and you have the risk of being kicked out of your house in the future. Not nice when you plan to retire.

Why wait until you paid everything, decorated your house and live there comfortabley in an ignorant is bliss state.

The knock on the door will bring you back to earth again.

Probably you will get a year to sell everything or otherwise it will be property of the crown.

Problem is when that happens, who is going to buy it.

I don't call that an easy retirement, you will worry the rest of your time here. Unless al the money you spend is just peanuts for you.

As i said before, up to you. Just go in with your eyes open and with knowledge of the law, not the law as told by the one who is benifitting from the deal.

It is not for any other reason owners and buyers are getting very nervous and are taking measures to try to protect there property, well actually the property of the 51% shareholders.

Having bought a house through the company route a couple of years ago, like many others,

I read every article about land ownership when the news broke a few months ago.

I have just been reading this thread with some interest.

Certainly when the news came out at first I was expecting problems like that so eloquently put forward by khun Jean.

I decided to sit down quietly, understand all the options and make a decision when I felt I needed to.

Do I need to make a decision yet? Its been several months now since the news about the land ownership / company route has been around.

Does anyone know of any expat that has had the 'knock on the door'? In fact does anyone have any news that perhaps lawyers offices have been investigated (where their staff were used to set up these shell companies). Are there any 'horror' stories at all???

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Check out www.tropical-living.com/06-09sep/01debate.htm

A good, well researched article.

Thanks Dragonman - I will go and read this now.

[dsfbrit]

Check out www.tropical-living.com/06-09sep/01debate.htm

A good, well researched article.

Thanks Dragonman - I will go and read this now.

Ok read it - a good read indeed. So basically my best option today as I want to stay in this house

and would prefer to be 'legal' would be:

1. Remove land from company and put into lease - for 30 years and hope this may change to 90 years some time

2. Remove house from company and put into my name

3. Shut down company

Seems simple - why I have spent so long thinking about it?

I suppose point 1 is the interesting part - this would be the usufruct or lease option would it?

Just been off to read this link about usufruct / lease

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=83374 - the lease would be from whom? who would be the 'owner'

Edited October 8, 2006 by dsfbrit

[suiging]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

[dsfbrit]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option may be wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet???

I notice you joined TV forum the same time as me - probably to read about this land issue! I have to say I wish I knew about this web site before - I would NEVER have bought land out here had I know all the issues. For any potential flamers - I really really did not know it was against the law to own land - I researched this topic a lot and never found a decent forum like TV until 6 months ago that had all the issues explained - really!!!

Edited October 8, 2006 by dsfbrit

[suiging]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option is wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet??

Only from people on here who swear doomsday is coming and a friend of a friends friend has heard it, so it must be true.

The key is no new legislation yet. There is protection in the old ( time to move to the unfrustruct/lease method ), and I, like you, will be the first to change when something concrete occurs. I honestly believe the Thai's are not evil, they are just Asian and often move in mysterious ways. The 3mil investment visa has gone, but all those who went that route in good faith have been catered for. I for one, am just trying to bring investment into the country. I employ Thais, and enjoy their company. These good people assure me sense will prevail........fingersed crossed, I choose to believe them.

[suiging]

At last a similar voice in the wilderness. Yes, I joined up to try to get a different angle on the land issue, and have enjoyed the debate thus far and yes, I too, was told all the ups and downs by my Thai lawer, who honestly belived that if the company remained " quiet ", all would be well. He is as shocked as most of us who were of the loop at the recent happenings, but as it stands, the many of us who wished to be " quiet " investors in the LOS, have been done in by the greedy.

Good on the Thai people for having the bottle to go after the powerful within their own society, sadly, a few of us at the other end of the scale are having a bumpy ride. I still love the place and will not jump until the ship sinks ( hopefully I will spot the bugger filling with water ). Ido not feel LOS has reached that stage yet, many on here do and I respect that opinion. I just hope when the penny drops about the potential loss of revenue from us, the " quiet ones ", up and leaving, Asian pragmatism will kick in and a middle path acceptable to both will be found.

Edited October 8, 2006 by suiging

[Dragonman]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

I agree with the "wait and see" in principle, and have suggested such in the past. The only problem is that if "the knock on the door" does come, you have come to the attention of the Authorities, and hence leaseholds, usufructs,etc may be looked at much closer than an "unknown" case. The lower profile you keep out here the "safer" you are.

[dsfbrit]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

I agree with the "wait and see" in principle, and have suggested such in the past. The only problem is that if "the knock on the door" does come, you have come to the attention of the Authorities, and hence leaseholds, usufructs,etc may be looked at much closer than an "unknown" case. The lower profile you keep out here the "safer" you are.

I think you are right and its my preferred option - keep quiet and wait and see. Its why I was so surprised to see that I had an additional option, put forward by Sunbelt in the reply above.

He says I could sell (now I guess?) and the market is still OK for selling this type of property. That surprised me and not an option I had even considered! If the knock on the door comes I will almost certainly try to sell at that time. If its just a knock on my door then I guess I could still sell. If its general legislation and all our doors are 'knocked' at the same time !- oh well never mind!

Here is a an interesting thought - which I would like your opinion on. If I bought a business here for my wife - which was legitimate and I pay all my / my wifes taxes etc... could I use this as a vehicle

to make the company legit also. The house has an 'office' - its where I am typing from now!

It would not be anything massive, perhaps a small karaoke bar - she would enjoy running that (nowhere near here though - god what a din!!).

[dsfbrit]

At last a similar voice in the wilderness. Yes, I joined up to try to get a different angle on the land issue, and have enjoyed the debate thus far and yes, I too, was told all the ups and downs by my Thai lawer, who honestly belived that if the company remained " quiet ", all would be well. He is as shocked as most of us who were of the loop at the recent happenings, but as it stands, the many of us who wished to be " quiet " investors in the LOS, have been done in by the greedy.

Good on the Thai people for having the bottle to go after the powerful within their own society, sadly, a few of us at the other end of the scale are having a bumpy ride. I still love the place and will not jump until the ship sinks ( hopefully I will spot the bugger filling with water ). Ido not feel LOS has reached that stage yet, many on here do and I respect that opinion. I just hope when the penny drops about the potential loss of revenue from us, the " quiet ones ", up and leaving, Asian pragmatism will kick in and a middle path acceptable to both will be found.

I am not sure we are in the wilderness, I suspect we are the silent majority? I often notice that on major issues there can be hundreds of people reading a topic, but only a few people actually post a comment. Often its the same names that reply. Some like Dragonman, Sunbelt provide good advice, others offer to explain their situation and how they have resolved a problem (what I usually do - I am not a general expert!) - others flame - but the vast majority say nothing!

My problem is I cannot judge whether I am understanding what is actually going on at the moment. Its why I am trying to find any examples - good or bad - of what has happened to people in our situation. I expected at least one flamer to come on and gleefully tell me of a land 'owning' farang they knew of that had been carted away in the middle of the night and put in the worst cell in the Monkey House!

Maybe its too soon and I will try again in 3 months or so?

Make sure you buy a big baling - bucket. Me I wont leave Thailand whatever happens - unless they make me of course.

good luck

[Geppis72]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option may be wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet???

I notice you joined TV forum the same time as me - probably to read about this land issue! I have to say I wish I knew about this web site before - I would NEVER have bought land out here had I know all the issues. For any potential flamers - I really really did not know it was against the law to own land - I researched this topic a lot and never found a decent forum like TV until 6 months ago that had all the issues explained - really!!!

Same conditions, I did not know in Jan 2006 when I set up my Co Ltd either, otherwise forget about...

In any case now we are IN and I agree in sit and wait, I will move in LOS in 2007 because it was planned already and house there should be finish on April, I can not do much at this stage.

I will come there, see around and decide what the best to do... Keep / Sold / Lease.

Not even sure if is better put the house under my Co ltd who own the land (I'm MD but only 35%..) or under my name directly, do not know the difference when I'm going to sell...

For sure I do not need add headhake, so I think to sell everything and rent an house to leave and find a Job who allow the WP and extention Visa. Remeber that if you close the Co.Ltd and nobody sponsor you for a job, you will never have a Non Imm B....

[Mobi]

I bought a house through a 49/51 % company about 18 months ago, and even before the crackdown, was considering transferring it to my wife on 30 year leaseback arrangement, as I was uncomfortable with my 51 % nominee shareholders, always lurking, maybe ready to pounce at some future date and cause me some headaches.

The crackdown made the decision for me and I decided to get the house out of my company, transferred to my wife, and, following legal advice, to arrange a lifetime usufruct. All this has now been achieved - it was quite expensive - especially the transfer taxes and "backhanders", but in my view, worth it. I can now sleep easy not worrying about that knock on the door giving me one year to dispose of my property. Ok I know it may not - and indeed probably will not - ever happen , but for me it's sod's law that I will be knocking on 70, somewhat infirm, and some court official tells me I've got a year to vacate. (or even worse, that I'm being prosecuted for breaking the law and my property is confiscated.) Another point is that disposing of property in Thailand with a court looking over your shoulder is not as straight forward as you might think, and based on previous experience in a similar situation, it is at least possible, that a "forced sale" might result in the property being sold way below market value.

OK, I know I'm not 100% safe now, as my good friend dragonman is quick to point out. But firstly, the house is owned by the wife, and the company has been disposed of - so the house now has 100% legal Thai ownership. If I break up with my wife, there is a very small possibility, that my wife may successfully challenge the usufruct in the courts. Well, first of all, I don't think we will break up, secondly, even if we did, unless it was monstrously acrimonious, then I really don't think she would have any idea, let alone any intention to go to such lengths as to challenge the usufruct. And last but not least, my trusty lawyers have assured me that the usufruct is 100% watertight, and is even better than a lease.

If the law is amended and relaxed in some way - then good luck to all those who have adopted a "wait and see" approach, but for me, at 60, with probably around 10 good active years left, I can't afford to wait.

I think there is a conspiracy of silence at the moment. Land is being transferred from Thai company to Thai company, and the foreigners are then transferred in as shareholders. I know for a fact that this is going on every day at the Pattaya land office. But all involved are keeping pretty low profile on this - from the developers, to the lawyers to the farang sellers. They know what they are doing is highly suspect, but they have little choice and are just going ahead and keeping their fingers crossed.

I suspect many of the recent buyers are not aware of just how thin the ice may be.

[dsfbrit]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option may be wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet???

I notice you joined TV forum the same time as me - probably to read about this land issue! I have to say I wish I knew about this web site before - I would NEVER have bought land out here had I know all the issues. For any potential flamers - I really really did not know it was against the law to own land - I researched this topic a lot and never found a decent forum like TV until 6 months ago that had all the issues explained - really!!!

Same conditions, I did not know in Jan 2006 when I set up my Co Ltd either, otherwise forget about...

In any case now we are IN and I agree in sit and wait, I will move in LOS in 2007 because it was planned already and house there should be finish on April, I can not do much at this stage.

I will come there, see around and decide what the best to do... Keep / Sold / Lease.

Not even sure if is better put the house under my Co ltd who own the land (I'm MD but only 35%..) or under my name directly, do not know the difference when I'm going to sell...

For sure I do not need add headhake, so I think to sell everything and rent an house to leave and find a Job who allow the WP and extention Visa. Remeber that if you close the Co.Ltd and nobody sponsor you for a job, you will never have a Non Imm B....

I am not an expert, but my investigations have led me to the conclusion that if the land is not held by the company, then it is best to put the house in your name and kill off the company. Otherwise you are incurring the 15000 baht a year cost to do the company accounts - for what - you can get the house book in your name legally anyway and the land will have been leased or usufruct(ed).

I like your phrase 'headache' - that sums it up - I dont lose sleep over my situation, but its a 'headache' I could do without.

I know this is a stupid question and no doubt you are aware - but just in case- have you been made aware of all the visa changes that came into play on October 1st?

If not its all there in the Visa section of Thai Visa (I love this web site for information!)

I currently have a so called 'married' visa extension, but may switch to a Retirement extension next year - with all the new hassles for other extension types. I reckon the B visa may be a a bit more difficult in the future - but hey what do I know.

If you hear of any horror stories over the next period perhaps you could post it here.

good luck with it all...

[dsfbrit]

I bought a house through a 49/51 % company about 18 months ago, and even before the crackdown, was considering transferring it to my wife on 30 year leaseback arrangement, as I was uncomfortable with my 51 % nominee shareholders, always lurking, maybe ready to pounce at some future date and cause me some headaches.

The crackdown made the decision for me and I decided to get the house out of my company, transferred to my wife, and, following legal advice, to arrange a lifetime usufruct. All this has now been achieved - it was quite expensive - especially the transfer taxes and "backhanders", but in my view, worth it. I can now sleep easy not worrying about that knock on the door giving me one year to dispose of my property. Ok I know it may not - and indeed probably will not - ever happen , but for me it's sod's law that I will be knocking on 70, somewhat infirm, and some court official tells me I've got a year to vacate. (or even worse, that I'm being prosecuted for breaking the law and my property is confiscated.) Another point is that disposing of property in Thailand with a court looking over your shoulder is not as straight forward as you might think, and based on previous experience in a similar situation, it is at least possible, that a "forced sale" might result in the property being sold way below market value.

OK, I know I'm not 100% safe now, as my good friend dragonman is quick to point out. But firstly, the house is owned by the wife, and the company has been disposed of - so the house now has 100% legal Thai ownership. If I break up with my wife, there is a very small possibility, that my wife may successfully challenge the usufruct in the courts. Well, first of all, I don't think we will break up, secondly, even if we did, unless it was monstrously acrimonious, then I really don't think she would have any idea, let alone any intention to go to such lengths as to challenge the usufruct. And last but not least, my trusty lawyers have assured me that the usufruct is 100% watertight, and is even better than a lease.

If the law is amended and relaxed in some way - then good luck to all those who have adopted a "wait and see" approach, but for me, at 60, with probably around 10 good active years left, I can't afford to wait.

I think there is a conspiracy of silence at the moment. Land is being transferred from Thai company to Thai company, and the foreigners are then transferred in as shareholders. I know for a fact that this is going on every day at the Pattaya land office. But all involved are keeping pretty low profile on this - from the developers, to the lawyers to the farang sellers. They know what they are doing is highly suspect, but they have little choice and are just going ahead and keeping their fingers crossed.

I suspect many of the recent buyers are not aware of just how thin the ice may be.

Very interesting. I would like your feedback on the following, because you have actually done this as opposed to those who can offer advice, but are not 'living' it as well.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

2 when you shut down the company, did you get any grief from the lawyer as he was about to lose the 15000 baht a year to do the accounts? - how much was the total cost ?

3 Before you shut down the company, did the lawyer keep/look after the originals of the pre-dated thai 'shareholders' letters or did you have these?

At the moment my lawyer stores these plus some other valuable documents in a fire proof safe. If I did decide to shut down the company in the future, depending on your reply to 2 above, I might quietly request he lets me store these now.

4 Here is the big question - impossible to answer I know, but lets give it a go - do you really feel more relaxed now? I know I should do what you have done - but I just cannot bring myself to do it.

My wife loves this house and so do I. However, if I decided I wanted to move sometime in the next years - she would NEVER agree to it. I have asked her. Especially if I wanted to move to a condo and asked her to sell HER land (say). I would never convince her of this move and she would have all the control! Its not about trust its about being flexible.

5 You are aware of land transactions taking place, are these new properties that have been commenced before this issue blew up, or are farang still buying properties like mine ie: not new, 3 years old.

I was surprised Sunbelt said there was no impact on the sale price of properties like mine, but he did not come back with any examples, nor further comment - I think everyone is concentrating on forum with all the changes to the visa regulations this month!

Like I say, if I had known then what I know now etc... I would never have done this in the first place.

Thanks in advance for your advice

[Mobi]

Very interesting. I would like your feedback on the following, because you have actually done this as opposed to those who can offer advice, but are not 'living' it as well.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

2 when you shut down the company, did you get any grief from the lawyer as he was about to lose the 15000 baht a year to do the accounts? - how much was the total cost ?

3 Before you shut down the company, did the lawyer keep/look after the originals of the pre-dated thai 'shareholders' letters or did you have these?

At the moment my lawyer stores these plus some other valuable documents in a fire proof safe. If I did decide to shut down the company in the future, depending on your reply to 2 above, I might quietly request he lets me store these now.

4 Here is the big question - impossible to answer I know, but lets give it a go - do you really feel more relaxed now? I know I should do what you have done - but I just cannot bring myself to do it.

My wife loves this house and so do I. However, if I decided I wanted to move sometime in the next years - she would NEVER agree to it. I have asked her. Especially if I wanted to move to a condo and asked her to sell HER land (say). I would never convince her of this move and she would have all the control! Its not about trust its about being flexible.

5 You are aware of land transactions taking place, are these new properties that have been commenced before this issue blew up, or are farang still buying properties like mine ie: not new, 3 years old.

I was surprised Sunbelt said there was no impact on the sale price of properties like mine, but he did not come back with any examples, nor further comment - I think everyone is concentrating on forum with all the changes to the visa regulations this month!

Like I say, if I had known then what I know now etc... I would never have done this in the first place.

Thanks in advance for your advice

1. Just that it kept things simple. I'm sixty - I'll be lucky if I make it to 80. The usufruct is good enough for me. Separating the building and land is fine in principle, but it certainly complicates things and cranks up the costs, and it also rams home to the wife that you really don't trust her. The usufruct is a gift of "love" from the wife and as such will be much more acceptable. Of course it depends on the relationship etc. Another important point is that the wife has now put her name on the tabian bahn as head of the household and she is happy with that. I am in the process of getting my own"yellow" residence book form the amphur, and that'll do me fine.

2 & 3 I was in possession of the original company papers, plus the undated share transfer forms from the nominee shareholders. I engaged a new lawyer (Sunbelt) to take care of transferring the property and closing the company. They were able achieve this without the old lawyer being aware of what was happening. They still don't know - and there will be no come back as I went through an internediate shareholder stage, so that the nominees did not own 51 % of the company when the house and land were sold to the wife. I am sure I will not get any giref from the lawyer - he made his money out of me, and in the present situation he's not going to rock the boat. Anyway he's got too much business to worry about losing mine. I strongly recommend that you request he give you the original documenmts - it's your company - you're entitled to have them.

4. By nature I'm a bit of a worrier - especially where my future well being is at stake. I've had some scares in Thailand through the years (including a brief spell behind bars yonks ago when someone lied to the court about me) - and I can say that I do now feel 1,000 percent more relaxed. The only things that can now disturb my equilibrium is the wife - and I don't think she will do that - and anyway, she would have a really hard time trying.

Unlike you, we have discussed selling up and moving - and one day we may do that. We have an enormous spread outside Pattaya, and while we are enjoying it now, one day we might try and cash in and go for something a bit smaller. But that's for the future - when I'm old and infirm.

Hope the above helps.

[suiging]

Excellent informative stuff and a breath of fresh air from calm, well informed folk, not the usual scare mongers. Sadly I have no Thai family at all, so the waiting game is just about all I can do. However, I still hold on to the hope that better days are ahead. Not all Thai's hate farangs and not all farangs are seedy sex tourists. Spain and the like for Brits/Euros is not as attractive as it once was and as more and more post baby boomers choose to retire early, the lure of their retirement investments into the Thai local economies will become a powerful force for reason. I will wait and see. I loved the place this time last year, and as far as I can see, I will feel the same way this time next .....................fingers crossed.

[Dragonman]

.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

Thanks in advance for your advice

This is "superficies", not "usufruct". The house would not belong to you under usufruct. Superficies is not now strictly required under Thai Law as the Lease Terms may include a clause allowing for building and registering your own property. Advantage of this you can pass on the lease and building to anyone on your death. Disadvantage, some lawyers believe a usufruct is for life for foreigners, same as for Thais.

[dsfbrit]

Very interesting. I would like your feedback on the following, because you have actually done this as opposed to those who can offer advice, but are not 'living' it as well.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

2 when you shut down the company, did you get any grief from the lawyer as he was about to lose the 15000 baht a year to do the accounts? - how much was the total cost ?

3 Before you shut down the company, did the lawyer keep/look after the originals of the pre-dated thai 'shareholders' letters or did you have these?

At the moment my lawyer stores these plus some other valuable documents in a fire proof safe. If I did decide to shut down the company in the future, depending on your reply to 2 above, I might quietly request he lets me store these now.

4 Here is the big question - impossible to answer I know, but lets give it a go - do you really feel more relaxed now? I know I should do what you have done - but I just cannot bring myself to do it.

My wife loves this house and so do I. However, if I decided I wanted to move sometime in the next years - she would NEVER agree to it. I have asked her. Especially if I wanted to move to a condo and asked her to sell HER land (say). I would never convince her of this move and she would have all the control! Its not about trust its about being flexible.

5 You are aware of land transactions taking place, are these new properties that have been commenced before this issue blew up, or are farang still buying properties like mine ie: not new, 3 years old.

I was surprised Sunbelt said there was no impact on the sale price of properties like mine, but he did not come back with any examples, nor further comment - I think everyone is concentrating on forum with all the changes to the visa regulations this month!

Like I say, if I had known then what I know now etc... I would never have done this in the first place.

Thanks in advance for your advice

1. Just that it kept things simple. I'm sixty - I'll be lucky if I make it to 80. The usufruct is good enough for me. Separating the building and land is fine in principle, but it certainly complicates things and cranks up the costs, and it also rams home to the wife that you really don't trust her. The usufruct is a gift of "love" from the wife and as such will be much more acceptable. Of course it depends on the relationship etc. Another important point is that the wife has now put her name on the tabian bahn as head of the household and she is happy with that. I am in the process of getting my own"yellow" residence book form the amphur, and that'll do me fine.

2 & 3 I was in possession of the original company papers, plus the undated share transfer forms from the nominee shareholders. I engaged a new lawyer (Sunbelt) to take care of transferring the property and closing the company. They were able achieve this without the old lawyer being aware of what was happening. They still don't know - and there will be no come back as I went through an internediate shareholder stage, so that the nominees did not own 51 % of the company when the house and land were sold to the wife. I am sure I will not get any giref from the lawyer - he made his money out of me, and in the present situation he's not going to rock the boat. Anyway he's got too much business to worry about losing mine. I strongly recommend that you request he give you the original documenmts - it's your company - you're entitled to have them.

4. By nature I'm a bit of a worrier - especially where my future well being is at stake. I've had some scares in Thailand through the years (including a brief spell behind bars yonks ago when someone lied to the court about me) - and I can say that I do now feel 1,000 percent more relaxed. The only things that can now disturb my equilibrium is the wife - and I don't think she will do that - and anyway, she would have a really hard time trying.

Unlike you, we have discussed selling up and moving - and one day we may do that. We have an enormous spread outside Pattaya, and while we are enjoying it now, one day we might try and cash in and go for something a bit smaller. But that's for the future - when I'm old and infirm.

Hope the above helps.

Its been a great insight thanks - and I will quietly get those letters from the lawyer.

thanks again

[dsfbrit]

.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

Thanks in advance for your advice

This is "superficies", not "usufruct". The house would not belong to you under usufruct. Superficies is not now strictly required under Thai Law as the Lease Terms may include a clause allowing for building and registering your own property. Advantage of this you can pass on the lease and building to anyone on your death. Disadvantage, some lawyers believe a usufruct is for life for foreigners, same as for Thais.

Thanks for the feedback - I undersatand now. I will keep this in mind.

I will leave this for about 3 months I reckon and ask again if anyone has heard of any horror stories.

[dsfbrit]

Excellent informative stuff and a breath of fresh air from calm, well informed folk, not the usual scare mongers. Sadly I have no Thai family at all, so the waiting game is just about all I can do. However, I still hold on to the hope that better days are ahead. Not all Thai's hate farangs and not all farangs are seedy sex tourists. Spain and the like for Brits/Euros is not as attractive as it once was and as more and more post baby boomers choose to retire early, the lure of their retirement investments into the Thai local economies will become a powerful force for reason. I will wait and see. I loved the place this time last year, and as far as I can see, I will feel the same way this time next .....................fingers crossed.

I agree - nice to talk to you and the others. I haven't come to any decision - I think I will wait for another 3 months and have a think. Getting the signed papers off the lawyer is a priority I reckon.

I too love it here in Thailand.

Hope your plans go well for your move here next year

regards

Dave

[Geppis72]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option may be wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet???

I notice you joined TV forum the same time as me - probably to read about this land issue! I have to say I wish I knew about this web site before - I would NEVER have bought land out here had I know all the issues. For any potential flamers - I really really did not know it was against the law to own land - I researched this topic a lot and never found a decent forum like TV until 6 months ago that had all the issues explained - really!!!

Same conditions, I did not know in Jan 2006 when I set up my Co Ltd either, otherwise forget about...

In any case now we are IN and I agree in sit and wait, I will move in LOS in 2007 because it was planned already and house there should be finish on April, I can not do much at this stage.

I will come there, see around and decide what the best to do... Keep / Sold / Lease.

Not even sure if is better put the house under my Co ltd who own the land (I'm MD but only 35%..) or under my name directly, do not know the difference when I'm going to sell...

For sure I do not need add headhake, so I think to sell everything and rent an house to leave and find a Job who allow the WP and extention Visa. Remeber that if you close the Co.Ltd and nobody sponsor you for a job, you will never have a Non Imm B....

I am not an expert, but my investigations have led me to the conclusion that if the land is not held by the company, then it is best to put the house in your name and kill off the company. Otherwise you are incurring the 15000 baht a year cost to do the company accounts - for what - you can get the house book in your name legally anyway and the land will have been leased or usufruct(ed).

I like your phrase 'headache' - that sums it up - I dont lose sleep over my situation, but its a 'headache' I could do without.

I know this is a stupid question and no doubt you are aware - but just in case- have you been made aware of all the visa changes that came into play on October 1st?

If not its all there in the Visa section of Thai Visa (I love this web site for information!)

I currently have a so called 'married' visa extension, but may switch to a Retirement extension next year - with all the new hassles for other extension types. I reckon the B visa may be a a bit more difficult in the future - but hey what do I know.

If you hear of any horror stories over the next period perhaps you could post it here.

good luck with it all...

No horror stories at all from people I know, call here and there and everybody stay "low profile".

In any case the most valuable advise it to get a VERY GOOD lawyer, if I know about this forum earlier for sure my choice : Sunbelt. But I can not complain about mine at the moment.

About bold sentences above, yes I'm aware of the new Visa rules, that's way I wrote that if nobody sponsor you and if you can nor sponsor yourself Forget the Non Imm B.

Of course I talk for people like me which is far away to pension....

[Sunbelt Asia]

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Why would they get a lower price? The company just sells the land and house to the individual. Just because it is a company versus a individual being a seller, makes no difference on price.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

So you know of actual cases of farang like me selling their house/land to other farang. What method have the buyers used? lease/usufruct ??

I understand now your question better. I was going off the basis that a house is selling for 3 million Baht and on the basis you felt it would be cheaper because the seller is a company. This was not what you were asking. If it was your question, as I stated it would have no difference in price.

You were in fact going on the basis, the price of the house is no longer 3 million, it may be 2 million because the supply and demand issue.

We have not been involve as a broker with land transfer, so can't judge prices, however I hear quite a bit of activity at the Land dept these days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[dsfbrit]

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Why would they get a lower price? The company just sells the land and house to the individual. Just because it is a company versus a individual being a seller, makes no difference on price.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

So you know of actual cases of farang like me selling their house/land to other farang. What method have the buyers used? lease/usufruct ??

I understand now your question better. I was going off the basis that a house is selling for 3 million Baht and on the basis you felt it would be cheaper because the seller is a company. This was not what you were asking. If it was your question, as I stated it would have no difference in price.

You were in fact going on the basis, the price of the house is no longer 3 million, it may be 2 million because the supply and demand issue.

We have not been involve as a broker with land transfer, so can't judge prices, however I hear quite a bit of activity at the Land dept these days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for commenting Sunbelt. Yes my query was as you described it above.

It was not really that important - I dont intend selling at the moment - or in the future if I can help it - anyway.

I was just interested as I have noticed a couple of farang houses on sale nearby for at least 6 months now. One was advertised for 7.5mill Baht then 7.0 mill baht then 6.8 mill baht - I do not know what its at now - the rain washed the latest price off!!!

My major interest was if there had been any 'knocks on the door' or prosecutions - or anything ???

Seems to me keeping very quiet and hoping it goes away is be the best option for now - I will

ask the same questions in 3 months time if there has not yet been any 'breaking news' on this!

Where is your Pattaya Office - I have seen an advert near the Dolphin on 2nd road, but could not find the building??

[dsfbrit]

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

Before we get burnt to death - I would add that I agree with you. I have been looking for a so-called

'tipping point' and unless I see that there truly is evidence of people with the company/land method getting 'burned' from the government rather than just from the forum flamers - the best option may be wait and see ?

Have you heard of any bad stories yet???

I notice you joined TV forum the same time as me - probably to read about this land issue! I have to say I wish I knew about this web site before - I would NEVER have bought land out here had I know all the issues. For any potential flamers - I really really did not know it was against the law to own land - I researched this topic a lot and never found a decent forum like TV until 6 months ago that had all the issues explained - really!!!

Same conditions, I did not know in Jan 2006 when I set up my Co Ltd either, otherwise forget about...

In any case now we are IN and I agree in sit and wait, I will move in LOS in 2007 because it was planned already and house there should be finish on April, I can not do much at this stage.

I will come there, see around and decide what the best to do... Keep / Sold / Lease.

Not even sure if is better put the house under my Co ltd who own the land (I'm MD but only 35%..) or under my name directly, do not know the difference when I'm going to sell...

For sure I do not need add headhake, so I think to sell everything and rent an house to leave and find a Job who allow the WP and extention Visa. Remeber that if you close the Co.Ltd and nobody sponsor you for a job, you will never have a Non Imm B....

I am not an expert, but my investigations have led me to the conclusion that if the land is not held by the company, then it is best to put the house in your name and kill off the company. Otherwise you are incurring the 15000 baht a year cost to do the company accounts - for what - you can get the house book in your name legally anyway and the land will have been leased or usufruct(ed).

I like your phrase 'headache' - that sums it up - I dont lose sleep over my situation, but its a 'headache' I could do without.

I know this is a stupid question and no doubt you are aware - but just in case- have you been made aware of all the visa changes that came into play on October 1st?

If not its all there in the Visa section of Thai Visa (I love this web site for information!)

I currently have a so called 'married' visa extension, but may switch to a Retirement extension next year - with all the new hassles for other extension types. I reckon the B visa may be a a bit more difficult in the future - but hey what do I know.

If you hear of any horror stories over the next period perhaps you could post it here.

good luck with it all...

No horror stories at all from people I know, call here and there and everybody stay "low profile".

In any case the most valuable advise it to get a VERY GOOD lawyer, if I know about this forum earlier for sure my choice : Sunbelt. But I can not complain about mine at the moment.

About bold sentences above, yes I'm aware of the new Visa rules, that's way I wrote that if nobody sponsor you and if you can nor sponsor yourself Forget the Non Imm B.

Of course I talk for people like me which is far away to pension....

Yep - I think all of us who have commented agree 'low profile' it is. Like I say if there is no 'breaking news' on this subject by the new year perhaps we could all meet here again and compare notes in January!!

Enjoyed the debate - bye bye for now!

[Sunbelt Asia]

Where is your Pattaya Office - I have seen an advert near the Dolphin on 2nd road, but could not find the building??

Pattaya Bazaar, 2nd Floor

265/62-63 2nd Rd,. Pattaya

Intersection 2nd Rd and North Pattaya Rd

03-841-2828

[email protected]