SOTIRIOS Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 ...you have made it 'personal'.... ....this guy is the head of the English department... ...you are placing your son in the middle of your grievance.... ...let your son rewrite the whole thing... ...and keep out of it.... ....unless you were specifically asked to 'coach' your son...in which case you should be working with the teacher on the project as well... ....do not try to 'win points' over the head teacher...it will not happen...and surley it will become unpleasant for your son...if it hasn't already... ...you son is 16...he will graduate soon too...so let it slide'...and let it take its natural course... .... do you have too much time on your hands....??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaZa9 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Some incredibly ignorant responses here Thai parents produce some of the lowest scoring students in the entire world and yet our learned brethren here recommend you get LESS involved with your son like Thai parents do? There is only correct English when it comes to speech making Assist your son in creating a speech the correct way , and present it as such Should the teacher take further issue with that , say that you are happy to have a meeting with the Head of the English Department and Principal about this and that he should bring along an English - Thai dictionary Your story on what happened to the prize money made me want to vomit BTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowsdawdle Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If he is studying to be an electrician, what difference does it make? He'll only have a short lifespan, despite Thai electricity being different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernphil Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I suppose I am in the middle of the above thoughts. A family that lives very near us are Burmese , the eldest daughter ( 13 ) is very very bright, she speaks Thai of course and very good English. She can write in English as quick as I can even if her writing is not at all neat. Once or twice she has asked advice on her English homework ,such as which is the correct word to use I like my teacher because she is 1/ smart 2/ clever 3/ thoughtful Then I ask her which one she would choose and if not the same as me we discuss which word is the best and why. If your kids come home with a game called crossword beware. It is based on Scrabble and the pupil has a book with English words that are allowed in the game. there are a few words that begin with Q but are not followed by U. The 13 yo Burmese girl beats me at this quite often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLang Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Let the kid be free. Support him and what he does, but let him do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quidnunc Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 ...you have made it 'personal'.... ....this guy is the head of the English department... ...you are placing your son in the middle of your grievance.... ...let your son rewrite the whole thing... ...and keep out of it.... ....unless you were specifically asked to 'coach' your son...in which case you should be working with the teacher on the project as well... ....do not try to 'win points' over the head teacher...it will not happen...and surley it will become unpleasant for your son...if it hasn't already... ...you son is 16...he will graduate soon too...so let it slide'...and let it take its natural course... .... do you have too much time on your hands....??? I would not have written the last sentence but you put the case much more clearly than I did. His son has nothing to gain and everything to lose by this confrontation. Let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quidnunc Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If he is studying to be an electrician, what difference does it make? He'll only have a short lifespan, despite Thai electricity being different. You realize that you just told the OP that his son is going to die young? Is there a shred of decency in you at all? There are some things that most of us know you just don't joke about. Especially when the joke is tired and not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbie Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 In despite of this peculiar situation, he is still progressing from bit to bit. By the way, playing "Thai" football style is more fun for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaunduhpostman Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Maybe this will help you let go the situation, sorry its quite long, but that is just how I communicate unfortunately. What the teacher at your son's school is doing is pretty common. I worked for many years at universities in Thailand. I was routinely asked to fix many a professor's academic manuscript, to help on several Thai English language academic journals, to write copy for newsletters, grant proposals, speeches, presentations etc. It was not uncommon that whatever I edited/fixed wrote etc. would be received by some second guess panel of Thai professors and admin. They would go through and make a complete mess of everything. I can't ever recall, in a decade of this kind of work, being listened to after the second guess panel converted documents back into Thai English. Any glance at the texts of English language tests your son's teacher might have given him will likely be full of the kind of English found in the scans you posted. It used to be much worse, but you can still find pretty atrocious English in cheap textbooks and English test prep materials for sale at any bookstore in Thailand. To tell a story about how ridiculous this can get, I was once hauled before a kind of lynch mob/tribunal of professors from all over the country with a squad of 3 westerners working in various colleges and unis in the same capacity as myself. The annual journal our group of collaborating schools produced had just been published full of the most outrageously bizarre Thai style English and the board of the journal was fit to be tied. Our university had been entrusted that year to finalize all the editing and were now in deep doo doo. The head of our wing on the journal sat smugly at the meeting pointing his finger at me. "He didn't do his job." They had the 3 westerners launch into tirades about how I ought to be fired, deported what have you. I knew exactly what had happened, so I was not in the slightest ruffled by any of it, it was just one surreal ludicrous joke. I let them do their primitive face saving accusation ritual without a word, until I was asked to come before the committee and beg forgiveness or whatever it was I was expected to do. I simply said perhaps their needed to be better coordination and that perhaps next time they needed to have someone double check all mnauscripts again before going to press, to check whether horrible people like myself that they keep on staff year after had actually done their job or not. After the session, I bumped into the western ajarns in the hall and said something to the effect of,"Hey come on. Don't tell me you don't understand what actually happened." They basically said, "Yep. We know. We were just putting on a show for them as requested. Sorry. Same thing happens to what we do. Its routine. They don't want to accept our work as far as any changes to manuscripts." So, you see that kind of attitude permeates the whole education sector of the country regarding English and nobody is ever allowed to override anyone who has a higher ranking no matter what and unfortunately ranking is never bestowed according to knowledge or skill. In your sitation OP, I'd let it go, you're up against a pretty set in stone way of dealing with English written by foreigners in the schools and I would guess by the look of it from so many of the English language articles produced by the Thai media as well: Thais have the last word on what goes out the door to the public. And as such it becomes entirely their own pickle they are making for themselves here as much as they might want to blame someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlycw Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Your son hasn't learned his lesson yet? Does he want to be shown as a "prize poodle" at some dog and pony show? What's in it for him? ... I've had similar conflicts with Thai teachers. Once, a convoluted, long-winded and totally unsuitable skit was found on the internet. Wayyy too long to be memorized... Me, I wrote a sequel of slapstick scenes which involved some acting. But that elderly teacher dug in his heels and prevailed. Until the whole thing fell apart as the students refused to participate. A demoralising waste of time! Not knowing the basics like time constraints (we would have taken about 10 minutes for this skit) or the ability of judges and the audience to grasp what the thing is all about etc. At some point, it was my HoD's turn to get involved. Speaking Thai, of course! ... To my great dismay, teachers wrote some speeches for our students. I pleaded to let the students do it themselves - warts and all - to make it their thing. To LEARN. ... For a story telling competition ("The Emperor Without Clothes"), two great M6 students wanted to have a go. One dropped out after the first hour, the other one put in hours and great effort. We were emphasizing the surreal situations... And then the HoD took over, undoing everything. It may sound utterly haughty and arrogant. But I felt like some cook having some other cook throw salt into my soup... Was it spite? TBH, I don't know. But unless you can handle 100% of the preparations yourself, this and other projects will likely be doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhys Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Parents love their kids, children ot teachers.... seem to have an added challenge.... in the end... it is the child's decision.. is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netease Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Don’t let it go! You do whatever you feel is right for the child as you are the one as a parent giving up your time to give this child a chance to be top of the class, I always corrected the grammar of my two Thai nieces when talking with them. When I checked their homework I would only tell them that there was a mistake in the different sections and send them on their way for them to research where their mistake is. I am not a teacher and couldn’t write this letter without spell check My Nieces did spend some time in Australia with us and go to school here which gave them a big advantage over other students in Thailand. The eldest one when she went back to Thailand was selected with about 6 other students one from each class to travel to England on a month scholarship, After she finished year 12 she was given a scholarships to Thammasat university, faculty of Liberal Art which I am told is very hard to get into. The Nieces come from a poor family farther died 10 years ago. Don’t let anyone stand in your way you teach him the best way you can. Don’t be afraid to go to the school and talk with his teacher I believe the teacher would appreciate it that you put the effort in and wouldn’t mind being corrected, forget this rubbish about losing face. I haven’t seen any reply’s on TV from someone who had done what you are trying to do. Good on you. I could go on and on but I think you get what I am about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmh8 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Maybe this will help you let go the situation, sorry its quite long, but that is just how I communicate unfortunately. What the teacher at your son's school is doing is pretty common. I worked for many years at universities in Thailand. I was routinely asked to fix many a professor's academic manuscript, to help on several Thai English language academic journals, to write copy for newsletters, grant proposals, speeches, presentations etc. It was not uncommon that whatever I edited/fixed wrote etc. would be received by some second guess panel of Thai professors and admin. They would go through and make a complete mess of everything. I can't ever recall, in a decade of this kind of work, being listened to after the second guess panel converted documents back into Thai English. Any glance at the texts of English language tests your son's teacher might have given him will likely be full of the kind of English found in the scans you posted. It used to be much worse, but you can still find pretty atrocious English in cheap textbooks and English test prep materials for sale at any bookstore in Thailand. To tell a story about how ridiculous this can get, I was once hauled before a kind of lynch mob/tribunal of professors from all over the country with a squad of 3 westerners working in various colleges and unis in the same capacity as myself. The annual journal our group of collaborating schools produced had just been published full of the most outrageously bizarre Thai style English and the board of the journal was fit to be tied. Our university had been entrusted that year to finalize all the editing and were now in deep doo doo. The head of our wing on the journal sat smugly at the meeting pointing his finger at me. "He didn't do his job." They had the 3 westerners launch into tirades about how I ought to be fired, deported what have you. I knew exactly what had happened, so I was not in the slightest ruffled by any of it, it was just one surreal ludicrous joke. I let them do their primitive face saving accusation ritual without a word, until I was asked to come before the committee and beg forgiveness or whatever it was I was expected to do. I simply said perhaps their needed to be better coordination and that perhaps next time they needed to have someone double check all mnauscripts again before going to press, to check whether horrible people like myself that they keep on staff year after had actually done their job or not. After the session, I bumped into the western ajarns in the hall and said something to the effect of,"Hey come on. Don't tell me you don't understand what actually happened." They basically said, "Yep. We know. We were just putting on a show for them as requested. Sorry. Same thing happens to what we do. Its routine. They don't want to accept our work as far as any changes to manuscripts." So, you see that kind of attitude permeates the whole education sector of the country regarding English and nobody is ever allowed to override anyone who has a higher ranking no matter what and unfortunately ranking is never bestowed according to knowledge or skill. In your sitation OP, I'd let it go, you're up against a pretty set in stone way of dealing with English written by foreigners in the schools and I would guess by the look of it from so many of the English language articles produced by the Thai media as well: Thais have the last word on what goes out the door to the public. And as such it becomes entirely their own pickle they are making for themselves here as much as they might want to blame someone else. veering slighltly offf topic, I can only imagine what a rewarding task your editorial role was, are you a lecturer/researcher? wrt op it is natural to care for your childrens education, and take an interest in it, good on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenchair Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If my kid brought home that monstrous piece of paper, I would strangle him or the teacher or both. Nobody could win a gold medal English comp if that is anything to go by. So obviously, that school was predesignated to win. Maybe they hand over a big envelope secretly and get it back openly to show a big prize. Going by that piece of paper, sorry to say, your son couldn't win his way out of a paper bag. I suggest you and he enjoy the glory of the gold medal. And don't make too much trouble, so he might get another one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocopops Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Just make the mimimum changes required to correct the English in the simple version. Avoid adding any complexity or new ideas to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Apologist Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) I have an honest answer about this, and bit of advice for you. I never went to highschool, in the states. That's a complicated story; basically I ran away, etc. However, I had the smarts that later I was enrolled at the state's university - dropped out of there, also. But...I had the smarts that then, a few years later, I was in residence at Harvard, and since then (many years ago now) have been in residence and lectured at many institutions and universities around the world (as a composer, which has been my occupation in life). Basically, no one has ever accused me of being uneducated in life...to put it that way. I'm always surprising people when I have to explain after years of academic awards etc, that I never went to school. BUT....I missed some very important things in elementary education which I sorely missed in later years: I never learned the SOCIAL skills that other children did; which then helped those students go on to deal with the world in an easier way. In other words, I learned all the same things, on my own - if not a bit more, I've noted - but, I was isolated socially. In my view today, at 50, that's a large part of what elementary education is about, the social skills. The group experience. Others here are describing that as 'saving face' for this particular teacher, but I think that reads more as typical Thai bashing on the forum. And I can tell you, it's the first in a LONG line of teachers who will behave in the same way, regardless of culture of location. It's the nature of education. My advice, is that your child is probably intelligent enough - and that you provide an environment at home - to learn what an inquistive, intelligent child will. That will happen, and without your worry. Just keep life interesting - and, living in Thailand is certainly part of that. What you CAN'T provide, as a parent, are the interpersonal experience that come with your child being 'alone' (so to speak) with others. Be careful not to cheat your child from those experiences, because they are as useful as mathematics and grammar themselves; perhaps more, often. They won't all be positive, but they won't all be negative, either. Don't create an us vs. them situation, in their school. As someone who later has gone on to teach graduate students at NYU and other high range institutions - is that those who do best in life, aren't just intelligent, but get along with others. And, in our world, that often involves cutting others some slack...even when we know (or feel) we are more correct. Don't isolate them from others, as it reads that you are doing. Edited June 12, 2015 by No Apologist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullstop Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It's a competition for school students and yet you wrote the speech. Do you do his other homework for him? The problem seems to be solved and he's doing his own speech. Do you really think that any "impromptu speech" in Thailand was written by a student? Nope, I don't do his homework. But I could give him some useful information about Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, which is a part of the speech, discussed some historical events regarding software and he'll use his own words to express his opinion(s). Anyway, thanks a lot.Please see the "corrected version of "our speech." lol. Honest to God ...the Prathom 5 (10 year olds) E.P class I teach has better Written English than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttthailand Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 One of the rules in preparing a speech is to " know your audience" . Your writing may be more correct but perhaps the people listening will not understand and thus no real message is delivered. I am sure you are only trying to do the right thing and protect your son but sometimes you need to let them figure it out themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullstop Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 One of the rules in preparing a speech is to " know your audience" . Your writing may be more correct but perhaps the people listening will not understand and thus no real message is delivered. So if your audience is semi illiterate in English ... your speech should be delivered in semi illiterate English? .... Hmmm. But seeing as most judges in E.P speech contests are native English speaking teachers ...I'll ignore your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 If he's at tech college, that means he failed the high school for whatever reason. (Naughty children, stupid children and problem children are all told to leave government high school at age 15+, after M3) Best not to get involved, you're clearly not helping his education. How rude .. I teach at a technical college. I have to admit lots of students are failures in their high schools and come to us not being able to write their own name without copying from their shirt. Electronics students are the best students in college and most deserve more than to be lumped in with rest of the population, but it's a good place to start. The amount of information they absorb is huge, the lecturers are really solid and they are the only people I have seen teach in Thailand. I love my electronics students, many of the kids made me proud by going onto the petrolium program which is sponsored by the big companies in the O&G field - after completion they stand a good chance of getting jobs in the industry. Kids at a technic mature very quickly, they come in at M4, as lowers for 3 years and then an optional 2 years which gets then a headstart in university. They develop skills ( including smoking and wheelies I'm sorry to say ) from their peers which they don't at school because they are surrounded by younger students. Thanks for your post and taking the time. He decided that he wanted to "study electronics", eventually also computer technology, software, hardware, etc.. One reason for his decision was the soon upcoming ASEAN community and he seems to know what he wants to do. Hopefully. Lol. BTW, the problem with the teacher is solved and he'll deliver his speech. They did that in an easy way that another teacher took over and finally told him that his speech would be great.So nobody lost face and all involved are okay.Well, apparently not the guy and his find.. I better not comment the guy who made the statement on here that all technical college students are stupid, lazy and not good enough to slip through the wonderful world of Matayom four, five and six, to finally study at the local Rajabhat. Sad that the former head of the English department retired last year, I had the nice opportunity to hold a seminar together with him and all I can say is that those students were in no way stupid. Thanks a lot for the various good posts. A great weekend. Cheers.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 What a "REAL TEACHER" looks like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualbiker Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 One of the rules in preparing a speech is to " know your audience" . Your writing may be more correct but perhaps the people listening will not understand and thus no real message is delivered. So if your audience is semi illiterate in English ... your speech should be delivered in semi illiterate English? .... Hmmm.But seeing as most judges in E.P speech contests are native English speaking teachers ...I'll ignore your advice. Not at all. The content should be fairly understandable by all. The OP said his son didn't know Bill Gates etc so it is safe to presume that his peer group wouldn't either! It's the same as when students just copy and paste articles from Wikipedia for homework without one ounce of understanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldiablo Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 This guy always makes me laugh. So serious, in a not so serious culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salo123 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Op, try to speak with the Director. For all the others, i dont see any different, when a father instead of the teacher write the speech!! In both ways the student dont do it his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenchair Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If he's at tech college, that means he failed the high school for whatever reason. (Naughty children, stupid children and problem children are all told to leave government high school at age 15+, after M3) Best not to get involved, you're clearly not helping his education. What complete rubbish.. Technical college is technical college. It is to learn a technical trade. They have a bad name generally because of Thailand's enfercise on degrees. But you as a student are certainly not forced to go there. Sorry to but in but it is true. There is stringent testing to get into matayom level government. All the kids that can't get in go to private schools and tech. There are too hurdles to get in. First, all grades from g3,g4,g5,and half g6 are added. If they pass with 3.5 or above, they are permitted to sit the entrance test. Then they sort out the mice from the men. The competition is fierce and money will not buy you in. They are all rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Some incredibly ignorant responses here Thai parents produce some of the lowest scoring students in the entire world and yet our learned brethren here recommend you get LESS involved with your son like Thai parents do? There is only correct English when it comes to speech making Assist your son in creating a speech the correct way , and present it as such Should the teacher take further issue with that , say that you are happy to have a meeting with the Head of the English Department and Principal about this and that he should bring along an English - Thai dictionary Your story on what happened to the prize money made me want to vomit BTW I'd like to thank you very much for your nice post, and.I do have my own thoughts about what's helpful for him and was wondering about some posts to let him do all alone..... My son's really completely different to other teenagers his age.I met him hen he'd just turned four and he does have a healthy common sense, knows how to make good jokes in English, doesn't smoke, of course do they party from time to time, didn't we all do that? ( I only assume..) But to tell him to sit down and write his own speech doesn't make much sense to me. I'm pretty busy with my job and would change his speech anyway. Considering that it's not an impromptu speech, i would appreciate that he delivers quality, but at the same time learn a lot of new vocabulary and use it as well. Just talking about Bill Gates can fill many evenings and weekends. My point being is that I want that he really knows what he's talking about and if anybody would ask him several questions, he could answer them as well. Not like the usual robotic sounding memorized ones.. As already mentioned, the problem's solved in a very polite way that nobody involved is suffering of a lost face.They just gave the job to another teacher and this teacher's happy with the speech as it is. I made a seminar with the former head of the English department and I was really surprised about this guy's professionalism.He'd been in the States for quite a long time and his seminars were indeed outstanding. The sad part is that he retired. There was not even one "stupid student" attending the seminar we did together and we became friends. Or maybe just people who respect each other? We exchange e-mails from time to time and when he comes back, I;d love to have chat with him over a beer. When he retired, he moved to the north, but is still working for the MoE and I'm glad to know that such people do exist. Of course could I have sent him an e mail, asking for help, but that was never my intention. I do not want to create any problems for teachers, because I exactly know how they were educated, what they believe, how they think, etc... Talking about the freaking skit and the disappeared money still makes me angry and unfortunately did the whole procedure do something to all who made it happen.They stopped seeing each other and their friendship broke apart. I'll never forget when i received the phone call that they made it to gold, straight from Bangkok and the day when they came back.Happiness pure, but...........the winners were made to losers at the same time and then only abused for some photo shooting events. I never wanted to have anything for that, but at least a sort of appreciation coming from the top of the school would have been okay for me. Not even a fancy looking certificate Thai teachers seem to sample like other people stamps, or similar. Again, thank you all very much for the nice words and ideas, I've really enjoyed all of them. Have a great weekend, it can be shorter than expected. Similar to life, perhaps? P.S. Please see attached photos when they hit the jackpot in Bangkok? Aeeh, the teachers......the one on the right is one of those nice guys who can hardly have a conversation in English, but "produced gold in form of good money". Sorry, gotta go now and throw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenon Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If that is the speech you wrote, I don't understand it. But, anyway, I agree you shouldn't be doing your son's schoolwork. Will you be there to do his job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 One of the rules in preparing a speech is to " know your audience" . Your writing may be more correct but perhaps the people listening will not understand and thus no real message is delivered. So if your audience is semi illiterate in English ... your speech should be delivered in semi illiterate English? .... Hmmm.But seeing as most judges in E.P speech contests are native English speaking teachers ...I'll ignore your advice. Not at all. The content should be fairly understandable by all. The OP said his son didn't know Bill Gates etc so it is safe to presume that his peer group wouldn't either! It's the same as when students just copy and paste articles from Wikipedia for homework without one ounce of understanding! Splitting hairs now? Didn't know details how he started in a little shitty shag garage. He's actually talking about how this guy became famous and so on... Oh, forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 If that is the speech you wrote, I don't understand it. But, anyway, I agree you shouldn't be doing your son's schoolwork. Will you be there to do his job? Yes, and I will wipe his ass too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTravelNow Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 And what will the boy learn from all this? Face is more important than communication. Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. This kind of statements is of the worst kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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