Travellers From Thailand To Laos

[midas]

Over the years I have made a few visa runs ( not as a tourist

I hasten to add ! ) to Laos. I always felt quite relaxed in Vientiane

and even traveled upcountry.

But I have just finished reading a book by Kay Danes entitled

" Nightmare in Laos " and it has really put me off ever traveling

to Laos ever again.

When this incident with the Danes occurred, I was in Australia

and heard about it via the usual media channels so it was

interesting to get an accurate picture of exactly what happened

to Kerry and Kay Danes.

For those of you who still travel to Laos from Thailand on

visa runs or for any other purposes, I highly recommend you

to read this quite scary description of exactly what happened

to these two people.........

[girlx]

can you elaborate on what happened to them?

[Valjean]

there was that time that I was driving through the mountians with my son. He saw a guy in the middle of nowhere standing in the road waving to us to stop - AK47 in hand. My recommendation was to keep driving but my son stops and rolls down the window. Chatting in broken Thai-Lao we understand he wants a ride. Let's see how do I say "No, I don't like to pick up people with guns" in Lao? While I'm thinking he hands me the gun and jumps in the back. Away we go.

But for me Laos always felt safe except for this maybe 1 min. before he handed me the gun.

[drummer]

hahahaha.... Generally I feel safe in Thailand, but are times when the police sure make me worried ... like double + triple checking my pockets in a random street search because they are sure I have some ganja somewhere (I could understand what they were saying) ... probably in my box of cigarettes (which they also had trouble finding, cause I did have that either!) Given their reputation for planting stuff on occaision when they think you have it - it made me a bit nervous ... Until they took out my hi hat clutch and examining it for residue and I bust out laughing when i realized they thought it was a pipe ...

[midas]

Sure- I will try to do so briefly...........

This is a relatively new book and is a true

story about Kay ( and her husband Kerry )

Danes who were respectable business people based in

Laos but were unfairly imprisoned in a Communist Gulag

in Vientiane, Laos for ten months.

They were not involved in drugs or anything like that

-they were simply setup by an incredibly corrupt

Communist regime where there are still

" secret police ". The book gives many examples

of how tourists and travelers are probably completely unaware

they have virtually no human rights at all in Laos despite the fact

that the government of Laos has supposedly agreed to

uphold human rights as prescribed by the UN.

There are no words to describe the shocking conditions

in the prison in which the Danes were held

with no rights to visitors and with very limited consular access.

If not for the direct intervention and incredible support given

by the Foreign Minister of Australia - Alexander Downer

and even the Prime Minister, John Howard, it's possible

the Danes might have languished in that dreadful prison for

a much longer period. There are even Thai people still

in the prison known as Phonthong Prison - that have almost

been forgotten about and have been there for years

without charges or any trial.

Not only does this book illustrate what a bunch of thugs

and crooks the Government of Laos are but it points out

that if ever you are detained for any reason whatsoever

in Laos, they have the right to hold you in their dreadful

prison for up to 12 months without any charge

or any court appearance and during that time they

carry out the most dreadful tortures.

Even Kerry and Kay Danes were subject to the most

dreadful tortures.

It's so easy to cross from Thailand to Laos just over the

Friendship Bridge and yet

many of us who have done so in the past quite innocently

probably havent got a clue about the significance of leaving

the relatively safe environment of Thailand to enter

a corrupt Communist country which has such a low

profile.

I finished reading the book days ago but I'm still thinking about it

everyday and I'm thoroughly shocked by what I read.

I think what makes me so shocked is to think I visited this country

three times not realising how potentially frightening this

regime can still be even to the innocent tourist who could

step over the line for any reason at any time.

One Sri Lankan was imprisoned because his friend ( not

the Sri Lankan -but his friend ! ) left the country

without paying his telephone bill............

Why Western countries continue to give aid to this regime

escapes me................

[kmart]

Weren't they (the Danes) involved in some diamond business? And was their business as legal as they made out? Something never smelled right about that case; and after their experience they were hardly going to give a glowing appraisal of the country, were they?

Laos is a very poor third world country. And a Communist one at that.

Don't expect too much; be careful; and remember just how vulnerable you are if someone gets pissed off with you.

[abdulrahman]

Can you tell more about that book?

I drive to Laos often,every two months or so,and never had any problem,the people are more friendly as in Thailand,the Lao Police is not worse as the Thai,of course following the advice of my Lao friens,I've never tried to visit the restricted zones,the rest of the country is beutiful.

[midas]

Kmart - I had exactly the same opinion and feelings as you when I was

in Australia because now I realise the media was being fed crap by the

Laos officials. One also has to ask, if they were not innocent why did they receive

such incredible personal support from the Australian Ambassador

and the Foreign and Prime Minister of Australia?

Read the book yourself ( or at least read some reviews of it ) and you will

get a different opinion. Not only that, whether or not the Danes were

innocent, and it still doesn't take away how they treat people in Laos

who break their law - I don't mean deliberately like stealing or being

involved in drugs -I mean doing something which might seem quite innocent.

The most sobering thing is to realise how they treat you in

Laos during the meantime- between the time they say you have

broken the law of Laos up until the time you have the right

to defend your self - that is what I find so shocking.

At least in Thailand you have the right to immediate

consular or Embassy access- not so in Laos.

Abdulrahman - again, the times I have been there I have probably felt

exactly the same as you. But as they say in the book, there are

many underlying secrets in Laos. The book is published by Maverick House

and the ISBN No. is 1-905379-08-0 - I purchased it the other day at B2S

at Central Chidlom.

[lannarebirth]

Sure- I will try to do so briefly...........

This is a relatively new book and is a true

story about Kay ( and her husband Kerry )

Danes who were respectable business people based in

Laos but were unfairly imprisoned in a Communist Gulag

in Vientiane, Laos for ten months.

They were not involved in drugs or anything like that

-they were simply setup by an incredibly corrupt

Communist regime where there are still

" secret police ". The book gives many examples

of how tourists and travelers are probably completely unaware

they have virtually no human rights at all in Laos despite the fact

that the government of Laos has supposedly agreed to

uphold human rights as prescribed by the UN.

There are no words to describe the shocking conditions

in the prison in which the Danes were held

with no rights to visitors and with very limited consular access.

If not for the direct intervention and incredible support given

by the Foreign Minister of Australia - Alexander Downer

and even the Prime Minister, John Howard, it's possible

the Danes might have languished in that dreadful prison for

a much longer period. There are even Thai people still

in the prison known as Phonthong Prison - that have almost

been forgotten about and have been there for years

without charges or any trial.

Not only does this book illustrate what a bunch of thugs

and crooks the Government of Laos are but it points out

that if ever you are detained for any reason whatsoever

in Laos, they have the right to hold you in their dreadful

prison for up to 12 months without any charge

or any court appearance and during that time they

carry out the most dreadful tortures.

Even Kerry and Kay Danes were subject to the most

dreadful tortures.

It's so easy to cross from Thailand to Laos just over the

Friendship Bridge and yet

many of us who have done so in the past quite innocently

probably havent got a clue about the significance of leaving

the relatively safe environment of Thailand to enter

a corrupt Communist country which has such a low

profile.

I finished reading the book days ago but I'm still thinking about it

everyday and I'm thoroughly shocked by what I read.

I think what makes me so shocked is to think I visited this country

three times not realising how potentially frightening this

regime can still be even to the innocent tourist who could

step over the line for any reason at any time.

One Sri Lankan was imprisoned because his friend ( not

the Sri Lankan -but his friend ! ) left the country

without paying his telephone bill............

Why Western countries continue to give aid to this regime

escapes me................

I've spent a good deal of time in Lao. I would say generally, the police there are not even 1/10th as corrupt as Thai police. I'd also say that the Lao people are even friendlier than Thais. That said, it is a difficult place to stay, as there's an incredibly difficult bureauocracy, particularly with regard to visas. Don't even think about getting involved with a Lao woman, inside Laos anyway, as it's against the law and you may be jailed (or set up to be jailed). As for safety while travelling, I would avoid busses on the main N/S hughway between Vientiane and Luang Phrabang (hwy 13?), preferring vans or flying. I would not be a loud drunk in Laos either, as so many farang are here in LOS

There are many historic and beautiful places in Lao. Do some reading in advance and enjoy your travels.

[Mobi]

A bit of topic, but relevant ion the current visa hysteria.

The story on this thread is not too disimilar from stories about farangs in jail in Cambodia - again on trumped up charges. The Aastralian authorities are also trying to get these guys released, without much success. There is(was) a very long thread on this a little while back.

Just be very careful guys if you think Laos or Cambodia is the answer to your dreams. These places may turn out to be worse than you could ever imagine.

[terry57]

Over the years I have made a few visa runs ( not as a tourist

I hasten to add ! ) to Laos. I always felt quite relaxed in Vientiane

and even traveled upcountry.

But I have just finished reading a book by Kay Danes entitled

" Nightmare in Laos " and it has really put me off ever traveling

to Laos ever again.

When this incident with the Danes occurred, I was in Australia

and heard about it via the usual media channels so it was

interesting to get an accurate picture of exactly what happened

to Kerry and Kay Danes.

For those of you who still travel to Laos from Thailand on

visa runs or for any other purposes, I highly recommend you

to read this quite scary description of exactly what happened

to these two people.........

2 question's please. i know the story, but not the facts.

# 1 did the danes have there diamond business 100 % legal and did they comply with every local law and regulation without exception ?

# 2 did they give the lao authorities any reason what so ever to be able to lock them up ?

just one small comment about books, horror stories and never going to that country ever again.

there's a thousand books on horror stories in thailand involving farang doing business here, being murdered for various reasons and locked up in the big tiger for said various reason.

yet it still draws millions of tourists a year and 99 % never have a problem.

im not at all suggesting that the danes were guilty as i dont know the facts.

the trouble always seems to stem from business deals going sour, bar girls or excess alchohol comsumption.

just an observation that's all.

i steer away from all three so dont experience these problems.

[terry57]

A bit of topic, but relevant ion the current visa hysteria.

The story on this thread is not too disimilar from stories about farangs in jail in Cambodia - again on trumped up charges. The Aastralian authorities are also trying to get these guys released, without much success. There is(was) a very long thread on this a little while back.

Just be very careful guys if you think Laos or Cambodia is the answer to your dreams. These places may turn out to be worse than you could ever imagine.

any worse than what could happen to one in los ?

[terry57]

Sure- I will try to do so briefly...........

This is a relatively new book and is a true

story about Kay ( and her husband Kerry )

Danes who were respectable business people based in

Laos but were unfairly imprisoned in a Communist Gulag

in Vientiane, Laos for ten months.

They were not involved in drugs or anything like that

-they were simply setup by an incredibly corrupt

Communist regime where there are still

" secret police ". The book gives many examples

of how tourists and travelers are probably completely unaware

they have virtually no human rights at all in Laos despite the fact

that the government of Laos has supposedly agreed to

uphold human rights as prescribed by the UN.

There are no words to describe the shocking conditions

in the prison in which the Danes were held

with no rights to visitors and with very limited consular access.

If not for the direct intervention and incredible support given

by the Foreign Minister of Australia - Alexander Downer

and even the Prime Minister, John Howard, it's possible

the Danes might have languished in that dreadful prison for

a much longer period. There are even Thai people still

in the prison known as Phonthong Prison - that have almost

been forgotten about and have been there for years

without charges or any trial.

Not only does this book illustrate what a bunch of thugs

and crooks the Government of Laos are but it points out

that if ever you are detained for any reason whatsoever

in Laos, they have the right to hold you in their dreadful

prison for up to 12 months without any charge

or any court appearance and during that time they

carry out the most dreadful tortures.

Even Kerry and Kay Danes were subject to the most

dreadful tortures.

It's so easy to cross from Thailand to Laos just over the

Friendship Bridge and yet

many of us who have done so in the past quite innocently

probably havent got a clue about the significance of leaving

the relatively safe environment of Thailand to enter

a corrupt Communist country which has such a low

profile.

I finished reading the book days ago but I'm still thinking about it

everyday and I'm thoroughly shocked by what I read.

I think what makes me so shocked is to think I visited this country

three times not realising how potentially frightening this

regime can still be even to the innocent tourist who could

step over the line for any reason at any time.

One Sri Lankan was imprisoned because his friend ( not

the Sri Lankan -but his friend ! ) left the country

without paying his telephone bill............

Why Western countries continue to give aid to this regime

escapes me................

moral of the story is dont step over that line and all will be sweet.

same as any country a punter travells in.

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think the *average* law-abiding tourist to either Laos or Thailand stands to be subject to any bad treatment. If you're interested in doing business, legally or illegally, that's another matter. I've been to Laos (Vientiane) many times, behaved myself, and had no problems or even hints of problems at all.

There are some problems apparently in some parts of the country, and I've heard of buses being shot up in different areas- but these incidents were not targetting foreigners; Lao people suffered just as much.

"Steven"

[midas]

Lannarebirth - Kerry Danes is referring to the " secret police " not the

uniform guys you see on the street so it's a different situation altogether. Don't forget

being a communist country -whilst it's not perhaps as visible in Laos as it is

in say North Korea or Cuba- the government officials will not allow

the citizens to leave the country. There is therefore a " behind the scenes "

system to monitor this - i.e. the secret police

Terry57 - I will try to answer your questions :-

# 1 did the danes have there diamond business 100 % legal and did they comply with every local law and regulation without exception ?

Kerry Danes was the manager of Jardine Securicor Laos -who in turn were employed by

a gem company to provide security services. That gem company had a joint venture agreement

with the Laos government which indeed went sour. But surely the security company cannot

all should not be held liable -and that is what happened. I have only read a book so I'm not

for one instance saying I believe 100 percent -they're always two sides to every story

but the points I have tried to make we should be of concern to travelers to Laos are :-

1. How easy it seems to be for the Laos government to accuse you of breaking the law

and the secret police said to the Danes while they were in prison-that they had NO rights !

2. Not being able to have immediate access to your lawyer or your embassy in Laos

3. That according to the book written by Kay Danes - they have an interrogation

room in the prison where it seemed everyone was subject to torture -surely

that is the fundamental difference to Thailand. I don't believe foreign prisoners

are subject to torture in Thai prisons?

4. The conditions are so bad in the Laos prisons that no one is allowed to visit

them. All meetings with embassy or consular staff ( when they are eventually agreed to )

are held at the immigration office to which the prisoner is transported by armed

guard. At least in Thai prisons they allow visitors.

# 2 did they give the lao authorities any reason what so ever to be able to lock them up ?

to

The Lao authorities said the Danes were responsible for the theft of sapphires

whereas it was actually two other foreigners who were the actual directors of the

gem company. Securicor Laos merely provided the security services.

There was a lot of face-saving going on in the end and even though by the description

the court case was a complete farce, they were made

to sign documents ( negotiated between the Australian and Laos governments )

that the Danes agreed to the decision to the court - but after that the process

started for them to return to Australia and before that they received

a Presidential pardon.

Once again as I raised earlier, surely the Prime Minister of Australia

and Foreign Minister would not become involved in a case in which

a foreigner is prima facie guilty of breaking the law ?

Look at these links :and-

http://www.maverickhouse.com/Shared/Books/...are_In_Laos.php

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nightmare-Laos-Imp...g/dp/1905379080

http://www.usp.com.au/fpss/products/index.html

[lannarebirth]

Lannarebirth - Don't forget being a communist country -whilst it's not perhaps as visible in Laos as it is in say North Korea or Cuba- the government officials will not allow

the citizens to leave the country. There is therefore a " behind the scenes "

system to monitor this - i.e. the secret police

midas,

That statement is not true. I know many Lao who travel outside Laos. What is true, is that they require an exit visa.

[midas]

I have been to both North Korea and Cuba so i just assumed an

exit visa would be just as hard for the Lao people to get as

it is in other strict communist regimes ?

I think this passage from the Amazon web site

about the book is very pertinent ?????

" Danes writes emotively. Phontong is a "gulag" where prisoners live in squalor and are routinely tortured. "Gulag" seems a little over-the-top, but the bulk of text is well written and credible. How many other farangs have emerged to tell the tales from inside a Lao jail? Danes' account of her fellow prisoners is moving and upsetting. I was left wondering why prison officials in Vientiane would feel the need to beat prisoners - foreign, Hmong or Lao - and commit ugly acts such as burning people's genitals.

This book reinforces the belief shared by a number of Western embassies here that the Lao regime includes some ugly figures, not much better than the generals in Rangoon. A book like this, exposing the dark underbelly of Laos, is a stark contrast to the country's tourist promotions and the gentle manner of the bulk of its people. In the beginning one gets the impression that Kay Danes is playing a game with soldiers, blissfully unaware of the risks. At the end of the 10-month confinement and separation from her young children, she seems close to emotional breakdown. But you fully understand why she is campaigning on behalf of those suffering such outrageous cruelty and neglect in Asian jails. "

[jdinasia]

hmmmm now let me get this straight ....

Midas won't be going back to Laos but ... I will!

Love the place!

[kat]

Laos is a beautiful country with beautiful people, but that is about as substantive as a postcard. I will always go back to Laos, as it is one of my favorite places in Asia, but I don't have any illusions about where I am when I'm there. I don't do ANYHTING illegal when I'm there, and I don't associate with people who do. The risks are just too great.

I know a young American backpacking couple that almost got set up in Laos about 5 years ago. They were staying in a guesthouse in a rural area with a bunch of other European backpacker kids. One of the girls went back alone to have a nap, and the guesthouse manager came into her room and tried to rape her. She managed to escape and ran to find her friends. Of course, they went back to guesthouse in a frenzy, and some of the guys got physical with the manager. He then said that he was going to set them up for drugs, and started to call the cops. They grabbed their things and ran. They called the American Embassy, and were told they could not help them inside the country, and were advised to get out of the country that minute, as soon as possible.

So, they got the hel_l out of dodge, and were met by Embassy people at the border in Thailand.

[plachon]

Laos is a beautiful country, with much to commend it, but it is also a country with a lot of dark secrets and a muddy underbelly, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So moral of the story is: tread lightly, stay clean and pucker there at all times and you shouldn't have any bother. Wearing skimpy clothes and doing drugs are asking for trouble. Unfortunately, tourists bring their own garbage, social mores and cultural pollution, (as in The Beach), spoiling the very "paradise" they came to see and enjoy. Laos is just a few decades behind Thailand, that's all.

[qualtrough]

So the OP has visited Lao many times without incident and enjoyed it, but reads one book about a couple's bad experience in Lao and is therefore never going back again. If I were him I would stop reading books or the news because if he doesn't he will find that he will run out of countries that are 'safe' for him to visit.

[terry57]

So the OP has visited Lao many times without incident and enjoyed it, but reads one book about a couple's bad experience in Lao and is therefore never going back again. If I were him I would stop reading books or the news because if he doesn't he will find that he will run out of countries that are 'safe' for him to visit.

thank you very much qualtrough,

my thoughts exactly,

i was going to say this at the get go but i thought id let things progress a bit.

cheers mate.

[bmanly]

I did a back packing trip through Laos a couple of Months ago, no problem at all. Just be a normal tourist, don't do drugs and respect the locals and no problem, but wow scarey story there from Kat.

[midas]

qualtrough and terry57 thanks for your advice but

because I really enjoy my food - and because I have already seen

a lot of Laos in any case now, I would just rather risk going back to a place

where if I inadvertently break the law- I could end up on

a daily diet of " pigfat water soup " - served just twice a day

365 days a year !

I just think there has to be something wrong with the

mentality of the authorities if they are willing to treat

people like that who haven't even being tried and convicted ?

There will still many many countries left where at least I will

get a better diet if I am incarcerated :-)

[jdinasia]

Keep up the good work Midas

I get tired of the lines at my fave Cafe' in Laos! This might make it i bit less crowded!

[qualtrough]

qualtrough and terry57 thanks for your advice but

because I really enjoy my food - and because I have already seen

a lot of Laos in any case now, I would just rather risk going back to a place

where if I inadvertently break the law- I could end up on

a daily diet of " pigfat water soup " - served just twice a day

365 days a year !

I just think there has to be something wrong with the

mentality of the authorities if they are willing to treat

people like that who haven't even being tried and convicted ?

There will still many many countries left where at least I will

get a better diet if I am incarcerated :-)

Midas -Incidents similar to the one that you read about recently have ocurred in Thailand from time to time, even to foreigners. Below is just one example. Read it and then start packing those bags

Colin Martin's Welcome to hel_l: One Man's Fight for Life Inside the Bangkok Hilton (2005, ISBN 1-905379-06-04), is both the tale of an unfortunate western businessman caught in the intrigue of a confidence game, and a primer for any westerner caught in the web of the Thai legal system. Here, Martin discusses topics such as the proliferation of big Thai business interests in the Thai underworld, payments to police officials to arrest innocent parties, and the need for the imprisoned accused to bribe his prosecutor to show up for a court date. While in detention, the author discovered that edible food could only be obtained by buying it directly from the guards (to their profit). Guards also know how much money a prisoner has on account, and can thereby use the information to leverage sexual favors from the imprisoned's girlfriend or wife. This didn't affect Martin's Thai wife, who absconded with his bail money, leaving Martin to wallow in prison. All in all, Martin's key message seems to be: bribe your way out as early as you can, as longer detention equals larger bribe requests.

URL: http://www.thaioasis.com/literature/lit_ex...xperience01.php

Edited September 17, 2006 by qualtrough

[terry57]

qualtrough and terry57 thanks for your advice but

because I really enjoy my food - and because I have already seen

a lot of Laos in any case now, I would just rather risk going back to a place

where if I inadvertently break the law- I could end up on

a daily diet of " pigfat water soup " - served just twice a day

365 days a year !

I just think there has to be something wrong with the

mentality of the authorities if they are willing to treat

people like that who haven't even being tried and convicted ?

There will still many many countries left where at least I will

get a better diet if I am incarcerated :-)

fair enough comment,

and i'll throw this back at you.

what about the american governments policy of locking down terror suspects in camp delta, guantanamo bay, cuba, with no chance of trial, being dehumanised by american guards ?

we have an australian in there called "david hicks" who has spent five years locked up and never ever had the opportunity to a trial to prove his guilt or innocence

the american government refusing to give him his day in court.

even paedophiles, murderers and rapist get the chance to front the judge so why can the american government just change a persons democratic and fundamental right to trail by jury ?

in this case they are no different to the lao regime and all americans should be concerned that the government can just change the rules to suit them self.

even our prime minister "john howard" thinks this is a fair thing, but i beg to differ and say that every human being has the right to trial by jury to establish the true facts.

this set's a very dangerous precident for all americans and people in general.

at least the danes did get out after 12 months, but "david hicks" is are still there languishing in a hel_l hole with now hope at all.

As a Yank I am with you there 100% Terry57. We have not done ourselves any favors recently.

The larger point to me is that you can find accounts of horrible injustice in just about any country, Thailand included. If the OP is frightened off Lao by reading just one account, he should be checking out of Thailand soon because you could easily find more like that about Thailand with just a little effort. Took me only a minute to find the one I had cited in my previous post.

you know what gets me about all these horror stories qualtrough ?

ive been coming to los for 19 years, have also been to laos and travelled all through asia extensively.

even was involved in business in los for 7 years.

asia is my love, los especially so.

why can i travel for all these years and never once have a problem ?

never had a passport stolen, never been threatened , never been ripped off by a bar girl ( dont do bar girls), and have only ever received friendship from the thais and asians in general.

laos was brilliant, the people where very receiving and i especially loved the food.

i can only come up with one conclusion to my own question.

that being,

i do my home work and always treat people with respect.

elementary dear watson

[midas]

I am not commenting on what the USA has done in this thread because

it’s entirely different issue.

One of the reasons I posted this item in this thread was to brings the attention of those that like to travel to Laos some of the stark differences regarding human rights.

Compare these two lists of human rights infringements compiled by

the USA State Department – the first one for Thailand and the second one

for Laos. I think the differences speak for themselves :-

THAILAND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES :-

• arbitrary and unlawful killings by both security force personnel and insurgents as well

as deaths in police custody

• torture and excessive use of force by police

• poor conditions in some prisons and immigrant detention facilities

• arbitrary arrest and prolonged detention without charge

• impunity for human rights abusers

• intimidation of the press leading to self-censorship

• widespread corruption

• violence and discrimination against women trafficking in persons

• discrimination against hill tribes and other minorities

• inadequate protection of worker rights

• forced labor and child labor

• mistreatment of foreign migrant workers

LAOS HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES :-

• denial of the right of citizens to change their government

• abuse of detainees, especially those suspected of insurgent or antigovernment activity

• civilian casualties resulting from conflicts between security forces and insurgents

• prisoner abuse and harsh prison conditions

• arbitrary arrest, detention, and surveillance

• lengthy pretrial detention and incommunicado detention • a corrupt judiciary subject to external influence

• infringement on privacy rights

• restrictions on freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and association

• restrictions on freedom of religion

• restrictions on freedom of movement

• societal discrimination against women and minorities

• trafficking in women and children

• restriction of some worker rights

I know which country I feel safer in.

[Little_Buddy]

So the OP has visited Lao many times without incident and enjoyed it, but reads one book about a couple's bad experience in Lao and is therefore never going back again. If I were him I would stop reading books or the news because if he doesn't he will find that he will run out of countries that are 'safe' for him to visit.

This isn't fair to the OP.

Think of it this way. There are two variables:

1) is the chance of any trouble happening to an individual farang in Laos, which is clearly small, as you alluded to with the OPs own anecdotal evidence.

2) is just how bad things can be if you DO get in trouble in Laos. What the Danes went through in Laos sounds far, FAR worse than what terrorists in Guantanamo go through. Maybe the OP doesn't want to take that risk, even though the CHANCES of it happening are slim.

Make sense? It sure does to me!

On a side note, if the Lao authorities noticed that tourism was dramatically dropping because of concerns of being TORTURED, maybe, just maybe, it would influence that government to improve legal procedures and prison conditions (and invite the Red Cross, etc. to come in and verify it), which is a little leverage we have in improving the lives of the Lao people.

What happened to Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam in 1975 is an ongoing tragedy for the people living in those countries, long after the hippie do-gooders and neo-Commie protesters have forgotten about them.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Little_Buddy

[Little_Buddy]

why can i travel for all these years and never once have a problem ?

never had a passport stolen, never been threatened , never been ripped off by a bar girl ( dont do bar girls), and have only ever received friendship from the thais and asians in general.

laos was brilliant, the people where very receiving and i especially loved the food.

i can only come up with one conclusion to my own question.

that being,

i do my home work and always treat people with respect.

elementary dear watson

Good on you, but do you really suppose luck had nothing to do with it? I'm not saying it's all luck - but surely it's an element that you're overlooking.

Your post comes very close to blaming the victim. Funny how you give terrorists the benefit of the doubt, but not your fellow farang.