Travellers From Thailand To Laos

[midas]

But jdinasia I didn't post this item because of the book itself or simply to defend the Danes

and in any case whether or not the Danes were guilty could be debated to kingdom come !

So let us forget completely about the actual case itself involving the Danes !

But no one before has got out of Ponthong Prison and written or spoken about the conditions inside.

The Laos prisoners certainly cannot because they don't have freedom of expression

in a communist country with secret police everywhere.

The fact still remains that the Laos authorities :-

( a ) can just lock you up for the slightest reason - whether or not you are the perpetrator

( b ) the keep you locked up for up to 12 months without charging you

( c ) not allow legal access during the 12 months and only allow diplomatic access

if there is a consulate or Embassy in Vientiene .

( d ) during that 12 months carry out barbaric acts of torture to try to get you to give false confession and it is the nature of the tortures that actually disturbed me.

And no I am certainly not the rep for the book :-))

[terry57]

cricky's midas,

i must tell you that i will debate a subject for ever if i believe in it but i cant go on any more as you are rehashing your story and its become pointless to continue.

if you could give me a missile blasting post with something new info i'd gladly keep plugging away as at least your polite and unoffensive so i respect you for that.

im sorry, but jdinasia can keep plugging away if he wants.

but midas,

you'll love this bit as jdinasia hates me and this is the first time we have ever agreed on anything ever. .

thats frigging awesome isn't ?

B.T.W., i think jdinasia is a bit of a tart so we are together that we feel the same about each other.

anyway midas,

im looking forward to our next debate as you are good value as far as hanging in there.

cheers midas

[terry57]

gilligan,

thats a very easy question to answer,

bolt down to the nearest book shop and there's a thousand books on people being locked up in thai gaols.

they all have a few things in common, its either drugs, bar girls or business related.

have a gander at them and you'll soon learn a few things about what not to do in los.

frigging real basic stuff mate.

i give you a great book to read that has just come on the market and its a bloody ripper.

true confessions of a bangkok private eye.

very informative and should be handed out at the airport.

infinately better than colin martins piece of crud.

cheers mate

Hey, thanks batman for that recommendation - I'll look for it!

(Do you know anything about Laos' laws against foreigners getting it on with Lao girls?)

P.S. say hello to mary anne and ginger for me as they are frigging gorgeous mate .

Will do!

True story:

My brother took my niece to Disneyland in California. An aging, sad-looking Bob Denver (actor who played Gilligan) was there, signing his autobiography. Some bratty little kids kept teasing "Gilligan". My brother overheard one of them asking "So, did you f*@# Mary Ann?" And poor Gilligan just looked down and shook his head like "please, just leave me alone".

Sad but somehow also hilarious I thought!

i know an english guy in luang prabang who married a lao girl so i dont think its a jailable offense to do that but it seems unusual.

to be perfectly honest i cant give you a 100 % answer on your question and maybe someone who has lived there can. ?

dont know why you think i lived in laos for 7 years as ive only ever been a tourist ? so you lost me there mate.

been to disneyland, but did not see gilligan, as may be the skipper had him out the back beating the crap out of him.

anway mate,

your a top fella as you got a good sense of humour.

cheers my top new friend.

[rogerdee123]

>The fact still remains that the Laos authorities :-

>( a ) can just lock you up for the slightest reason - whether or not you are the perpetrator

>( b ) the keep you locked up for up to 12 months without charging you

>( c ) not allow legal access during the 12 months and only allow diplomatic access

>if there is a consulate or Embassy in Vientiene .

>( d ) during that 12 months carry out barbaric acts of torture to try to get you to give false >confession and it is the nature of the tortures that actually disturbed me.

Sounds to me like US Homeland Security

[rogerdee123]

>i know an english guy in luang prabang who married a lao girl so i dont think its a jailable offense >to do that but it seems unusual.

>

>to be perfectly honest i cant give you a 100 % answer on your question and maybe someone who >has lived there can. ?

Farang/Lao marriage isn't unusual. Several old timer farang here as well as many newcomers have married Lao. Two of my former Lao staff have married farangs. Unlike Thailand, in Laos for a Lao to marry a foreigner, permission must be given by head of the village and also the Foreign Ministry. This is usually just a formality but it takes time (unless the wheels are greased).

What is illegal is prostitution, although that is fairly common in Laos too. It's just not a open as in Thailand. If you are a customer or a prostitute and you get caught by the boys in brown, you're in deep shit.

Also if a farang is living with a Lao girl (i.e. common law marriage?) out of (official) wedlock. It can be OK however if the Head of the village knows you and has given his consent.

>dont know why you think i lived in laos for 7 years as ive only ever been a tourist ? so you lost >me there mate.

My mistake

[midas]

rogerdee123 would it be safe to assume as in Thailand you could

pay off the Laos police for that type of offense ?

Or could there be any danger in Laos for them

to refuse the payment and report you for that as well ?

i.e. trying to bribe a police officer ? It might sound a silly

question but its communist so maybe money doesnt always

talk - i dont know ? I am just curious.

[abdulrahman]

rogerdee123 would it be safe to assume as in Thailand you could

pay off the Laos police for that type of offense ?

Or could there be any danger in Laos for them

to refuse the payment and report you for that as well ?

i.e. trying to bribe a police officer ? It might sound a silly

question but its communist so maybe money doesnt always

talk - i dont know ? I am just curious.

You can ,and will,find members of the Lao Police that aren't corrupt!

How this has anything to do with being a communist or capitalist country I don't know!

BTW,in my experience only,of course,I have always found the Police in Laos friendly.But,obviously,

I don't have a chip on my shoulder against the LaoP.D.R.!

[midas]

abdulrahman I wondered if there could be any difference in centralised

country economy because there may be more accountability for decisions etc ?

i.e. whether the police officer may not have the authority to let someone off.

By the way I don't have a chip on my shoulder against the LaoP.D.R

-only regarding the cruel bastards !

[jdinasia]

But jdinasia I didn't post this item because of the book itself or simply to defend the Danes

and in any case whether or not the Danes were guilty could be debated to kingdom come !

So let us forget completely about the actual case itself involving the Danes !

But no one before has got out of Ponthong Prison and written or spoken about the conditions inside.

The Laos prisoners certainly cannot because they don't have freedom of expression

in a communist country with secret police everywhere.

The fact still remains that the Laos authorities :-

( a ) can just lock you up for the slightest reason - whether or not you are the perpetrator

( b ) the keep you locked up for up to 12 months without charging you

( c ) not allow legal access during the 12 months and only allow diplomatic access

if there is a consulate or Embassy in Vientiene .

( d ) during that 12 months carry out barbaric acts of torture to try to get you to give false confession and it is the nature of the tortures that actually disturbed me.

And no I am certainly not the rep for the book :-))

Your facts are kinda iffy .... had this kind of thing actually happened with any frequency there'd be better documentation.

but really ... if travel frightens you ... then don't travel.

[the swagman]

>The fact still remains that the Laos authorities :-

>( a ) can just lock you up for the slightest reason - whether or not you are the perpetrator

>( b ) the keep you locked up for up to 12 months without charging you

>( c ) not allow legal access during the 12 months and only allow diplomatic access

>if there is a consulate or Embassy in Vientiene .

>( d ) during that 12 months carry out barbaric acts of torture to try to get you to give false >confession and it is the nature of the tortures that actually disturbed me.

As can most police forces in the world.

[midas]

" Your facts are kinda iffy .... had this kind of thing actually happened with any frequency there'd be better documentation"

jdinasia my old mate - how can they be a iffy ? Facts are facts and actually didn't you know it is all documented - it's all listed in the Laos police department public complaints book !

Give me a break !

[midas]

" As can most police forces in the world " the swagman- that's an interesting

generalisation! Would you care to list some examples all those these forces

that can do ( a ) to ( d ) ?

[jdinasia]

A complaint from a sketchy case? Those are the 'facts'? Not 100's of documented cases? I'd certainly rather be a white guy going to Laos than an Arab heading to the US <or living there> these days!

[midas]

jdinasia - " A complaint from a sketchy case? "

I suggested yesterday that we forget the " sketchy case " because it's not the reason for my posting in any case. My concern is about the conditions inside the jail and how easy it could be for other foreigners to join them.

Of course are not likely to be 100's of documented cases because who and where would those ex-prisoners go to have it documented? May be those who survived their jail sentences and eventually left the prison simply didn't know how or where to tell their story - and if it was a very minor crime -who would be interested ? It's only the high-profile nature of the case that allowed the opportunity to expose how corrupt these guys are. How do you know there are not 100's of foreigners who have been through the same nightmare ?

I mean what's the use of writing a book when people like you don't believe what's written in books

anyway?

[jdinasia]

jdinasia - " A complaint from a sketchy case? "

I suggested yesterday that we forget the " sketchy case " because it's not the reason for my posting in any case. My concern is about the conditions inside the jail and how easy it could be for other foreigners to join them.

Of course are not likely to be 100's of documented cases because who and where would those ex-prisoners go to have it documented? May be those who survived their jail sentences and eventually left the prison simply didn't know how or where to tell their story - and if it was a very minor crime -who would be interested ? It's only the high-profile nature of the case that allowed the opportunity to expose how corrupt these guys are. How do you know there are not 100's of foreigners who have been through the same nightmare ?

I mean what's the use of writing a book when people like you don't believe what's written in books

anyway?

To make $$$?

You said ignore that case --- then referred back to is as documentation and since there doesn't seem to be other documented cases and no-one is likely to be put in anything remotely approaching the situation that were described in that book, it just comes across as more than a tish 'reactionary' to be frightened of travelling there . I think you could find books about horror stories anywhere ......

[midas]

No jdinasia - you do have trouble grasping things dont you ?

I said ignore the case i.e. the details of case regarding

whether Kay and Kerry Danes were guilty or not.

But I see no reason to disbelieve her account of what other

foreign prisoners were and are going through

because it's the only documentation there happens

to be at this point ! Maybe the Laos people

living abroad in exile and there huge numbers of them in

America - may have a better chance to be heard now.

" no-one is likely to be put in anything remotely approaching

the situation that were described in that book "

you're so good at generalising !

I'm not saying be frightened I'm saying be aware -

I think that difference may be too subtle for you

[the swagman]

jdinasia - " A complaint from a sketchy case? "

I suggested yesterday that we forget the " sketchy case " because it's not the reason for my posting in any case. My concern is about the conditions inside the jail and how easy it could be for other foreigners to join them.

Of course are not likely to be 100's of documented cases because who and where would those ex-prisoners go to have it documented? May be those who survived their jail sentences and eventually left the prison simply didn't know how or where to tell their story - and if it was a very minor crime -who would be interested ? It's only the high-profile nature of the case that allowed the opportunity to expose how corrupt these guys are. How do you know there are not 100's of foreigners who have been through the same nightmare ?

I mean what's the use of writing a book when people like you don't believe what's written in books

anyway?

To make $$$?

You said ignore that case --- then referred back to is as documentation and since there doesn't seem to be other documented cases and no-one is likely to be put in anything remotely approaching the situation that were described in that book, it just comes across as more than a tish 'reactionary' to be frightened of travelling there . I think you could find books about horror stories anywhere ......

Exactly. To make $$$$$

The media, particularly the Oz media delight in this type of thing. They are very good at putting a story forward and then portraying what happened in that story to apply to anyone who goes to that place.

Turkey. Bali. Laos. Thailand. The ME.

Look at the case of the 'beautician in Bali. Her family has book deal, she has a bok deal and I'm sure her coworkers have been paid for 'imtimate' details of her life before she ended up in jail.

Australia being an isolated country, in the meaning of being so far from anywhere else, and with its small population is prone to sensationalising storys to feed the ever increasing amount of bored housewives and disgruntled workers.

If it worries you to go.

Don't go.

[jdinasia]

and wasn't she released in 2001? ....5 years ago?

Even the Lao<hmong> American clergy member didn't say he was tortured and as a foriegner was probably treated better <but did say that he was afraid that other people <locals> may have been tortured.

[midas]

jdinasia and swagman -OK OK - let's forget completely about the Danes book !

What about the following extract taken from a letter written by Sin Vilay

Under-Secretary General Assembly of Delegates of Laotians Abroad

addressed to U.S. House of Representatives - the full letter can be read

from the link below but Sin Vilay goes on to say :-

" ................the LPDR government's perennial poor record on human rights. They

continue to restrict freedom of speech, the press, assembly and association. Citizens

do not have the right to change their government. Police uses arbitrary arrest, lengthy

detention without charge, and surveillance. Prisoners are abused and tortured, and

prison conditions generally are extremely harsh and life threatening "

see :- http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=494

Nothing to do with the Danes - yes we can cast aside the claims of book promters but surely we have no reason to disbelieve the citizens of that country who are now living in exile ?.

[midas]

By the way guys the Laotians Abroad call it a "a brutal Stalinist state "- I never went tat far

[jdinasia]

hmmmmmmmmmm pretty much what can be said about the prisons of any communist country .... since whites/tourists etc don't end up in jail there as a common thing ... no worries!

[midas]

" since whites/tourists etc don't end up in jail there as a common thing ... no worries! "

" no worries ? " what a bloody racist you are ! so the fact that Nigerians Thai's and the Sri Lankan to name just a few are still stuck there doesn't matter to you ? that's a disgraceful attitude

[jdinasia]

Pardon me? We were discussing travel to Laos right? If you are offended by the facts of life somewhere ... don't go! Join Amnesty International! Do something!

However, if we are discussing travel to Laos ... it just isn't risky in the way that you are trying to make a case for!

As foor being a racist .... ummm no.

Edited September 29, 2006 by jdinasia

[the swagman]

i think you will find that Laotians in exile have been out of their country for quite some time. Back in the dark ages Laos was a brutal place to be. Look what happened to their King and Queen.

I think those days are well gone.

There are bloody Nigerians, Sri Lankans, Pakistani, Burmese, all kinds of people in jail in this fair country.

I doubt very much there are too many innocents stuck in jail in Laos.

Although I could be wrong.

[midas]

But the Nigerians some Thai's and the Sri Lankan were just travellers too !

[midas]

" There are bloody Nigerians, Sri Lankans, Pakistani, Burmese, all kinds of people in jail in this fair country. But at least in this country you get quick access to your lawyer and diplomatic contacts

I doubt very much there are too many innocents stuck in jail in Laos." pure speculation -how can you possibly make such a statement

[jdinasia]

Midas .... maybe you should go back and reread what this thread is about in your first post .....

It just isn't that dangerous to travel to Laos. .period.

[the swagman]

" There are bloody Nigerians, Sri Lankans, Pakistani, Burmese, all kinds of people in jail in this fair country. But at least in this country you get quick access to your lawyer and diplomatic contacts

I doubt very much there are too many innocents stuck in jail in Laos." pure speculation -how can you possibly make such a statement

You told me about the Nigerians, Sri LAnkans and Thais in Laos.

And as to quick access to your lawyer and diplomayic contact..... well........

[midas]

" Midas .... maybe you should go back and reread what this thread is about in your first post .....

It just isn't that dangerous to travel to Laos. .period "

jdinasia I said that I had read what I considered a scary description of the inside of

Vientiene Jail. I have never used the word " dangerous " anywhere in my postings

and I have never described the country as being dangerous. I have only tried to

bring to the attention of travellers the presence on a bunch of thugs who represent some elements

of the government who could make your life difficult at the drop of a hat and even Laotians Abroad say that. What intrigues me jdinasia is you make these blandishments such as " no worries " when at the very least there may be some travelers ( maybe not all I admit ) but just some who would at least preferred to be informed so that they themselves can make decisions regarding their own welfare. you have your opinion and I have mine

[midas]

Swagman you say " And as to quick access to your lawyer and diplomayic contact..... well........"

please be more specific ?