Ownership of home or apartment in Thailand

[Kenny202]

Thinking of buying a little duplex or bungalow in the city near where we live. (Dont want a condo).Have a missus of 3 years, not legally married nor plan to but do plan long term future. Trust her and all that but I do need to protect myself. I have already invested in her home (her name) and provided for her future. I know I can't buy proprerty in my name Thailand but what are my options? I would like to protect my investment in the future and have control to sell get my money back etc should I wish. Can I buy in her name yet somehow retain control / right to sell future etc?

[Kenny202]

Pm me guys if anyone has some info. First post I've ever made haven't got a reply. Maybe what I'm trying to do impossible

[Kenny202]

What about ....can I own 49% and missus own 51%? Obviously she would have the controlling say if she wanted to sell but wud she have to give me 49% of the proceeds of the sale?

[Kenny202]

Well I was wondering about that too. If I marry her and then buy the property I'm sure she can only claim what we aquire or she contributes too after the marriage. If I buy the property with money I had before we met does she have a claim?

Reason i don't want to be legally married in Thailand is not splitting 50% of what I have in Thailand but I believe the Australian govt allows thai wives to pursue Australian husband's assets in Australia same as an Australian wife wud. Ie at least 50% of everything even after a couple of years of marriage. I just can't risk that however much I love and trust her

[Kenny202]

What about ....can I own 49% and missus own 51%? Obviously she would have the controlling say if she wanted to sell but wud she have to give me 49% of the proceeds of the sale?

Dunno, think you are talking about opening a company to buy. That is dodgy ground. Am sure folk will post with useful info soon.

If you marry the bird and then buy something, you can claim half back if stuff goes tits up.......

No don't want to buy via a company. That's sounds more difficult and tricky than getting married :-(

[Langsuan Man]

You could get a usefruct that would allow you to maintain physical control for your lifetime but financially, other than going the company route, your death ends your or your heir's control

Your response above, without a company, could be accomplished by marrying her but that would only give you a 50/50 split only at the time of a divorce

And she is not your missus, Thailand does not recognize common law marriages , she is merely an acquaintance as far as the law is concerned

Afraid your only option is the company route, IMHO

[chiang mai]

Not necessarily:

If the OP really must buy a house and not a condo, ensure that he uses a reputable lawyer to act on his behalf (be quiet in the peanut gallery) and that he registers his interest in the property via an "usufruct". That gives him the right to enjoy and live in the property forever. Key points to note about an usufruct are that:

only the op or his circumstances can terminate the usufruct

the op is the only person allowed to live in the property unless he grants approval to another person

the property cannot be sold without his approval, including details of where payments for the sale must be directed.

usufruct rights are not compromised by a subsequently registered marriage to a Thai national.

Some additional points:

if you know how to do it you can register an usufruct at the Land Office for about 50 baht.

a decent and reputable lawyer (shock and horror, they really do exist in droves in Thailand) may cost between 15K baht and 20K baht, based on the purchase price of a medium price property in my neck of the woods, a sound investment if ever there was one.

Finish:

Conscious as I am of the hundreds of debates on TVF over the years re. the above points, I'm not going to get into any of them again here, if in doubt, consult a good lawyer, if in Chiang Mai or nearby, Khun Sumalee at 29 Tanin is one such person.

Over and out.

[MaeJoMTB]

Rent or you'll be sorry.

[ldnguy]

Well I was wondering about that too. If I marry her and then buy the property I'm sure she can only claim what we aquire or she contributes too after the marriage. If I buy the property with money I had before we met does she have a claim?

Reason i don't want to be legally married in Thailand is not splitting 50% of what I have in Thailand but I believe the Australian govt allows thai wives to pursue Australian husband's assets in Australia same as an Australian wife wud. Ie at least 50% of everything even after a couple of years of marriage. I just can't risk that however much I love and trust her

Get a pre-nuptual agreement.

[Kenny202]

You could get a usefruct that would allow you to maintain physical control for your lifetime but financially, other than going the company route, your death ends your or your heir's control

Your response above, without a company, could be accomplished by marrying her but that would only give you a 50/50 split only at the time of a divorce

And she is not your missus, Thailand does not recognize common law marriages , she is merely an acquaintance as far as the law is concerned

Afraid your only option is the company route, IMHO

A company sounds expensive and difficult to set up ie: 2 million baht capital, thai shareholders and employees

I think the usefruct may have been what I heard about. I'm happy in the event of my death my girl has control. Going this route I can sell anytime and receive the proceeds without another's consent? I can rent should I wish?

What are the downsides or risks? I hear a lot of people talking about crook lawyers. Do I need to trust and partner up on paper with a lawyer as a partner or something?

[Kenny202]

Rent or you'll be sorry.

The property I am looking at is 500k thb. Not a great chunk of change. 2 br townhouse with a little garden. Structurally sound but cosmetically rough inside but cheaply renovated. In a good inner city area. Condos are so overpriced compared to Thai properties just because cosmetically they are flashed up a little more and the market is farang orientated. I just don't see it being a good future investment and very hard to sell.

What constitutes a condo? For example an isaan city apartment block with 6 units. 5 of them thai owned. Can I own number 6?

[Robert24]

If it's registered as condo and not apartment, you should be able to buy a unit. Alternatively you can still go the way with a company. You don't need a lot capital ( certainly not 2 m baht ) but you will have additional cost to run it and you need a lawyer to set it up. Frankly the cleanest way set up is a condo that you own 100%. The other options are:

1) Usufruct agreement: your gf owns 100% and you make a usufruct so you can stay in it the rest of your life. But you won't own it.

2) lease agreement: max 30 years. Your gf is owner but you can stay in it because you have a 30 yr lease on it.

3) company: you have some set up costs and some cost to run it. And it's legally grey. If one day the government decides you only established it to own property, you may be forced to sell your stake in the company to a Thai or sell the property. Not a perfect solution but works.

[Kenny202]

If it's registered as condo and not apartment, you should be able to buy a unit. Alternatively you can still go the way with a company. You don't need a lot capital ( certainly not 2 m baht ) but you will have additional cost to run it and you need a lawyer to set it up. Frankly the cleanest way set up is a condo that you own 100%. The other options are:

1) Usufruct agreement: your gf owns 100% and you make a usufruct so you can stay in it the rest of your life. But you won't own it.

2) lease agreement: max 30 years. Your gf is owner but you can stay in it because you have a 30 yr lease on it.

3) company: you have some set up costs and some cost to run it. And it's legally grey. If one day the government decides you only established it to own property, you may be forced to sell your stake in the company to a Thai or sell the property. Not a perfect solution but works.

1) and 2) sound great but what if I wish to sell in the future if in her name? What are the benefits? I'm not buying it as a place to live but rather an investment

[Sophon]

If it's registered as condo and not apartment, you should be able to buy a unit. Alternatively you can still go the way with a company. You don't need a lot capital ( certainly not 2 m baht ) but you will have additional cost to run it and you need a lawyer to set it up. Frankly the cleanest way set up is a condo that you own 100%. The other options are:

1) Usufruct agreement: your gf owns 100% and you make a usufruct so you can stay in it the rest of your life. But you won't own it.

2) lease agreement: max 30 years. Your gf is owner but you can stay in it because you have a 30 yr lease on it.

3) company: you have some set up costs and some cost to run it. And it's legally grey. If one day the government decides you only established it to own property, you may be forced to sell your stake in the company to a Thai or sell the property. Not a perfect solution but works.

1) and 2) sound great but what if I wish to sell in the future if in her name? What are the benefits? I'm not buying it as a place to live but rather an investment

You cannot sell it because you don't own the property, only the owner (your GF) would be able to sell. All the lease or usufruct gives you is a right of possession. Worded correctly I believe a lease/usufruct would enable you to rent out the property (but check that out yourself before proceeding).

Any arrangement that enables you to sell the property and keep the proceeds would (rightly) be viewed by a court as a way to circumvent the prohibition on foreigners owning land in Thailand, and would therefore be deemed illegal. You are basically asking about a legal construct that would allow you to achieve something that is essentially illegal, and (not surprisingly) such a thing doesn't exist. The closest you can get is owning the land through a Thai company, but for that to be legal the company would have to be at least 51% owned by Thai shareholders. And the Thai shareholders cannot be nominee shareholders (which is illegal), so they would have to be genuine and put their own money into the company to fund the purchase of the property. Also with the costs of establishing a Thai company, as well as the yearly running costs, it would probably not be worth it for an investment in a 500k property.

Sophon

[Kenny202]

Yes a company not an option. Apparently one way and I believe it is legal is that Mt girl buys the land in her name. I take out a usufruct so that means she can't sell the land. You also get a loan contract drawn up saying I lent her the 100% funds for the property which is never repaid so although I don't own the land the land is indebted to me. Sound feasible?

I've heard the Chinese own a huge chunk of Thailand due to loaning sums of money to people with their land as security. There must be some way of protecting urself

[Kenny202]

One more thing. Just as a person (not a company) can I buy 49% of a house and my girl buy 51%? Is that ok?

[Sophon]

Yes a company not an option. Apparently one way and I believe it is legal is that Mt girl buys the land in her name. I take out a usufruct so that means she can't sell the land. You also get a loan contract drawn up saying I lent her the 100% funds for the property which is never repaid so although I don't own the land the land is indebted to me. Sound feasible?

I've heard the Chinese own a huge chunk of Thailand due to loaning sums of money to people with their land as security. There must be some way of protecting urself

So you buy the town house for 500k and lend your GF the same amount. A couple of years down the road the value of the house has increased to 1 mio, so if it is sold she would repay you 500k and keep the other 500k for herself. How is that an investment for you?

If you try to make some kind of contract that would entitle you to part of the profits on the house, the court would again deem it an attempt to circumvent the land ownership laws. You are trying to achieve de facto ownership, but any way to do that would not be legal. What you are suggesting might work as long as the courts or the land office don't scrutinize what you are doing, but that doesn't make it legal.

Sophon

[Kenny202]

Understand what your saying about the loan and increased value. Not sure about what you are saying re circumventing ownership laws. That would be a separate issue from the loan to my girl even if they did take objection to it. Are u speaking from opinion only or do you know this to be true as there are a lot of people with this arrangement

[Sophon]

One more thing. Just as a person (not a company) can I buy 49% of a house and my girl buy 51%? Is that ok?

It is possible for a foreigner to achieve ownership of a house but not of the land it sits on. In practical terms it's achievable when you build a new house, but very difficult (and maybe impossible) for an existing structure. But a foreigner can't own any percentage of land in Thailand, the most he legally can do is own a minority stake in a Thai company that owns the land.

So, no to your question.

No matter how you twist and turn it, what you are trying to achieve isn't legally possible. The only way you can legally own property as a foreigner in Thailand is by buying a condominium. And even then only 49% of the units in a condominium building can be owned by foreigners (the 49% is calculated on a sq.m. base, not on the number of units).

Sophon

[Kenny202]

Thanks mate. I'm in a very non farang area...Chaiyaphum. I wonder if they have any apartments here registered as condos.

I don't suppose I cud do something as simple as buy a house in her name but have a pre nup drawn up to say in the event we split the proceeds from the sale would come to me?

[blackcab]

Thanks mate. I'm in a very non farang area...Chaiyaphum. I wonder if they have any apartments here registered as condos.

I don't suppose I cud do something as simple as buy a house in her name but have a pre nup drawn up to say in the event we split the proceeds from the sale would come to me?

A pre nup would ensure that property owned by both parties before marriage is returned to the correct party after divorce.

As your girlfriend would own the land then all a pre nup would do is ensure she gets it all back when you divorce.

If the land was sold during marriage then she would get to keep the money if you divorced too.

[little mary sunshine]

Listen to the other post....RENT!! I can't for

The life of me understand why people have to "Own"

In some one else's name....You Own Nothing

In Thailand under those circumstances.

I rent a condo, beautiful unit. To buy it is around

2.5mn B. I have that money invested at 5.8%

It pays the rent, Not a problem in the world!!

And I know my money is mine.

[Kenny202]

If I knew where I cud get 5.8% without big risk I'll follow Ur advice. Pm me please

[little mary sunshine]

Medium risk,well diversified acct with Wells Fargo. My best

Medium risk stock has been STONMORE. not glamour

Funeral stock,,,current yield 7%. Great for past 5 yrs.

[dotpoom]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

[Jeffkp]

I thought about a house as wee. I consulted a Thai lawyer. You need to register a Thai corporation. As a foreigner you can only own 49%, but you can tie up the other shares for you to control. A lawyer may cost you 10,000 Bhat(?), registration fees are about 23,000 Bhat per year.

Good luck.

[bazza40]

What you want to do is extremely risky. Anything in joint names can be used as security for a loan without your knowledge, which then may become your responsibility if things go awry.

It's all very well to say you trust your missus; however, always keep in mind her family comes first, you second.

Better to rent and ensure your own finances are fenced off. Thai Visa forums are full of tales of woe from falangs who failed to do that.

[Kenny202]

What you want to do is extremely risky. Anything in joint names can be used as security for a loan without your knowledge, which then may become your responsibility if things go awry.

It's all very well to say you trust your missus; however, always keep in mind her family comes first, you second.

Better to rent and ensure your own finances are fenced off. Thai Visa forums are full of tales of woe from falangs who failed to do that.

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

[Langsuan Man]

I thought about a house as wee. I consulted a Thai lawyer. You need to register a Thai corporation. As a foreigner you can only own 49%, but you can tie up the other shares for you to control. A lawyer may cost you 10,000 Bhat(?), registration fees are about 23,000 Bhat per year.

Good luck.

It normally costs 20,000 to 25,000 THB to set up a company and then 10,000 to 15,000 THB per year to maintain it (file the forms, pay the taxes, do the accounting) and anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 THB to legally close down the company

If you are paying anything else you are getting ripped off

[MaeJoMTB]

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

Looking for an investment that you can't own outright, property is at the peak of a bubble, where the country is on the brink of civil war and the currency is at an all time high ...... madness.

Spain or France would be a better bet.

Edited July 1, 2015 by MaeJoMTB