Days before referendum, Greek voters perplexed and undecided

[webfact]

Days before referendum, Greek voters perplexed and undecided
DEREK GATOPOULOS, Associated Press
COSTAS KANTOURIS, Associated Press

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Costas Christoforidis hasn't decided how to vote in Sunday's referendum on a bailout deal for Greece's troubled economy. The problem is, the 37-year-old farmer isn't sure what he's voting for.

"If it's saying 'No' to austerity, then it's a 'No' from me too. But if we are rejecting Europe, I disagree with that," he said — a position that many of Greece's perplexed public find themselves in ahead of one of the most important votes in their country's modern history.

As Greek banks and markets remained closed Thursday for a fourth day, rival campaigns scrambled to roll out their messages. And a prediction from the International Monetary Fund that Greece will need piles of additional cash from eurozone countries and others over the next three years put even more pressure on the government.

"Our efforts are focused on overcoming the crisis as fast as possible — with a solution that preserves the dignity and sovereignty of our people," Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said.

The popular 40-year-old prime minister is gambling his government on a call to voters to reject austerity measures demanded by bailout lenders, despite coming close to a deal last week.

A strong "No" vote, he argued, would help Greece win a new deal with the eurozone's rescue mechanism that would include terms to make the country's 320 billion euro national debt sustainable.

Opponents say he is risking the country's future — asking voters to weigh in on a bailout offer that expired at midnight on Tuesday.

"They are making a serious mistake. Because the world will consider a 'No' vote to be a withdrawal from the heart of Europe — the first step toward euro exit," former conservative prime minister Costas Karamanlis said, making his first public speech in six years to endorse the "Yes" campaign.

Tsipras' argument was also dismissed by the head of the eurozone finance ministers' group, Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem.

"That suggestion is simply wrong," Dijsselbloem told lawmakers in the Netherlands.

European officials and the Greek opposition have warned a "No" outcome Sunday could be tantamount to a decision to leave the euro.

"The consequences are not the same if it's a 'Yes' or 'No,'" French President Francois Hollande said.

"If it's the 'Yes,' even if it's on the basis of proposals that have already expired, negotiations can resume and I imagine be quickly concluded," he said. "We are in something of an unknown. It's up to the Greeks to respond."

And in one of the clearest signs yet that the future of the government is on the line in Sunday's vote, the country's outspoken finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, told Australia's ABC radio he was likely to resign if a "Yes" vote prevails.

Tsipras signaled the same earlier this week, declaring on state TV that he was not an "all-weather" prime minister — a strong indication he would step down if his proposal is defeated.

Tension surrounding the vote has remained high since banks closed this week and were forced to impose strict cash withdrawal limits.

On Thursday, elderly Greeks, some struggling with walking sticks or being held up by others, formed large crowds outside the few banks opened to help pensioners without ATM cards get access to money.

Elsewhere in Athens, campaigners battled for visibility as time to reach voters was running out. "Yes" posters appeared for the first time around the city, and rival campaign rallies were scheduled for the same time Friday night, 800 yards (meters) apart, in the heart of the city.

Some 6,000 supporters of the Greek Communist Party attended a rally outside parliament on Thursday, urging voters to cast invalid ballots in protest of Greece's continued membership in the European Union.

Greece has been thrown into financial limbo after missing a massive IMF repayment this week when its bailout program expired.

Raising the stakes further for Sunday's vote, an IMF report released Thursday but compiled last week before the talks collapsed, warned that to avoid financial collapse, Greece would need additional debt relief costing 50 billion euros ($56 billion) and lasting through 2018 — a bleak prospect for a country that has already endured six years of recession.

Ashkoda Mody, a visiting professor in international economic policy at Princeton University, argued the IMF's call for debt relief should have been made far earlier, before the talks collapsed.

"If the IMF and other creditors had this document while they were negotiating with the Greeks, it is completely unconscionable that they did not discuss deep debt relief," he said.

Polling data on Sunday's vote has been scarce during the weeklong campaign, with one research company saying Thursday that a survey showing a narrow lead for the "Yes" vote was based on an unauthorized leak of partial data it had gathered.

One source of confusion is the actual question being posed to voters — 17 lines of bureaucratic language that ends with the "No" option placed above the "Yes."

Mulling her response, 64-year-old retiree Eleni Maili said: "I can't vote 'Yes' or 'No' — both have their pitfalls. And in the end, the lenders will just interpret the result in a way that suits them."

She did have one question of her own, though.

"I do wonder about all that money we got over all those years," she said. "Where is that money? Because the people didn't see any of it."
___

Online: Official referendum website http://www.referendum2015gov.gr/en/
____

Associated Press reporters Elena Becatoros and Paris Ayiomamitis in Athens, Paul Wiseman in Washington, Michael Corder in The Hague, Netherlands, Angela Charlton and Lori Hinnant in Paris contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-03

[trogers]

Ahhh...democracy at its fineness. The elected cannot even give a straightforward answer to a simple question.

The games some like to play.

Edited July 3, 2015 by trogers

[ABCer]

The problem has long stopped being economical and became purely political.

Greek's total debt far exceeds what Greece is worth if sold tomorrow at an auction, lock stock and barrel.

And this includes Greeks as well.

Now, in political terms, Greece is of very little value to EU. EU is of very little value to Greece.

And the intrinsic value of EU in its present form is quite questionable.

NOTE! I'm not trying to be provocative. Just the facts...

Edited July 3, 2015 by ABCer

[geriatrickid]

Why is anyone losing sleep over this? The bankers threw good money after bad and have no one to blame themselves for continuing to lend money to a country that could not pay it back. As for the Greeks, their days of sitting around collecting money from the EU, of not paying their taxes and of not being fiscally responsible should have ended years ago.

The money lent to Greece is lost, and no one wants to accept that. Let Greece withdraw from the Euro zone. Better yet. remove Greece from the EU. The Greeks will get the message once they can't take advantage of the rest of the EU. Greece is in worse shape than a 3rd world country.

[TheAppletons]

"Perplexed and undecided", lol. The Greeks have been perplexed for years.

"What do you mean we can't keep living off of your wages? Why not?"

[sammygood]

yes to euro money for a good life (getting pensions of family members who are dead since long) etc...

pay back loan : NO

[Ulic]

"I do wonder about all that money we got over all those years," she said. "Where is that money? Because the people didn't see any of it."

For me this is the crux of the problem. The Greek people do not understand they got all the money.

From the construction projects of the Athens Olympics, to subway and rail system upgrades. Road

construction and other infrastructure projects. The hiring of a truly bloated civil service that is double

what other European countries have. And the probably the biggest, the early retirement with full

pensions that were never funded by savings and investment but an endless supply of borrowed

money. Like any Ponzi scheme it will eventually collapse. Each successive Greek government

promising more so they will be elected. And it continues with the current governments promise,

of ending austerity, getting further debt forgiveness, getting another 50 billion Euro, and remaining

part of the EU/Euro zone. It is unbelievable. That said if they can talk the EU into a 100%

debt forgiveness, and a further 25-30 billion euro subsidy in perpetuity (because it will take at least

that) more power to them. Personally I don't see it. With the request of another 50 billion I think the

writing is on the wall. Don't throw good money after bad. Take your 500 billion in losses and leave

Greece to its own devices.

[tingtongfarang]

Why is anyone losing sleep over this? The bankers threw good money after bad and have no one to blame themselves for continuing to lend money to a country that could not pay it back. As for the Greeks, their days of sitting around collecting money from the EU, of not paying their taxes and of not being fiscally responsible should have ended years ago.

The money lent to Greece is lost, and no one wants to accept that. Let Greece withdraw from the Euro zone. Better yet. remove Greece from the EU. The Greeks will get the message once they can't take advantage of the rest of the EU. Greece is in worse shape than a 3rd world country.

The problem being that the loans made by the ECB/IMF were changed into public debt meaning the money the greeks squandered is now owed to the european tax payers of other countries not the banks,

Greece was always a 3rd world european country.

Edited July 3, 2015 by tingtongfarang

[TheAppletons]

Why is anyone losing sleep over this? The bankers threw good money after bad and have no one to blame themselves for continuing to lend money to a country that could not pay it back. As for the Greeks, their days of sitting around collecting money from the EU, of not paying their taxes and of not being fiscally responsible should have ended years ago.

The money lent to Greece is lost, and no one wants to accept that. Let Greece withdraw from the Euro zone. Better yet. remove Greece from the EU. The Greeks will get the message once they can't take advantage of the rest of the EU. Greece is in worse shape than a 3rd world country.

The problem being that the loans made by the ECB/IMF were changed into public debt meaning the money the greeks squandered is now owed to the european tax payers of other countries not the banks,

Greece was always a 3rd world european country.

THIS. ^^^^

[Basil B]

I was wondering how you can organise a referendum in 8 days but give it a few weeks and Greece would be on its knees, ready to accept anything.

[wabothai]

A referendum and just a handful of people really understand the issues and bring out good votes.

Tsripas has been voted into office to deal with this matter. Now he is trying to wash his hands and let the Creeks decide.

Is he a coward after all?

What a mass !!!

[h90]

yes to euro money for a good life (getting pensions of family members who are dead since long) etc...

pay back loan : NO

I always wonder if this healthy diets of Greek and Japanese with all the 110 year olds is real or if always the same 80 year old grandma is shown and 20 people who are dead since 20 years are receiving pension. In the statistic it seems the population is getting very old in average without much medical care, but in fact everything is just fake.....

[h90]

A referendum and just a handful of people really understand the issues and bring out good votes.

Tsripas has been voted into office to deal with this matter. Now he is trying to wash his hands and let the Creeks decide.

Is he a coward after all?

What a mass !!!

I would love to have such a coward government who asks the population instead of simply doing something against it.

It works well in Switzerland and Greeks are surely as smart....

[freebyrd]

Curious that 'No' is above 'Yes' on the ballot papers. Talk about loading the dice.... If I shook hands with the Greek PM or his Finance Minister I would count the fingers on both of my hands afterwards.

[VillageIdiot]

"Perplexed and undecided", lol. The Greeks have been perplexed for years.

"What do you mean we can't keep living off of your wages? Why not?"

That's the problem, isn't it?

Greece is a financial basket case because of the Greeks.

International organizations should isolate the country and treat it as a zone of contagion.

Nothing is going to change until the Greeks themselves change.

[cookee68]

"I do wonder about all that money we got over all those years," she said. "Where is that money? Because the people didn't see any of it."

For me this is the crux of the problem. The Greek people do not understand they got all the money.

From the construction projects of the Athens Olympics, to subway and rail system upgrades. Road

construction and other infrastructure projects. The hiring of a truly bloated civil service that is double

what other European countries have. And the probably the biggest, the early retirement with full

pensions that were never funded by savings and investment but an endless supply of borrowed

money. Like any Ponzi scheme it will eventually collapse. Each successive Greek government

promising more so they will be elected. And it continues with the current governments promise,

of ending austerity, getting further debt forgiveness, getting another 50 billion Euro, and remaining

part of the EU/Euro zone. It is unbelievable. That said if they can talk the EU into a 100%

debt forgiveness, and a further 25-30 billion euro subsidy in perpetuity (because it will take at least

that) more power to them. Personally I don't see it. With the request of another 50 billion I think the

writing is on the wall. Don't throw good money after bad. Take your 500 billion in losses and leave

Greece to its own devices.

Well said

[TheAppletons]

Financial Times is reporting that Greek banks are making plans to conduct a "bail-in" to recapitalize the banks by confiscating 30% of all depositors' accounts that have over 8,000 euros in the account.

[Johpa]

Ahhh...democracy at its fineness. The elected cannot even give a straightforward answer to a simple question.

But the questions being asked are only simple to the simple minded. The questions regarding the future of their, the Greek, economy are complex and have no straight forward answers. There is no clear path. As Robert Heilbroner so acutely observed, economists are worldly philosophers, and it is ironic that the Greeks of all people must vote upon relative, and complex, philosophies. This conundrum would be a test for any political system, not just a democracy.

[ABCer]

Anybody, please correct me, but

- Greece will be better off out of EU;

- Greece will be better off with all the tourists it has lost over Euro pricing;

- Greeks will be better off living on tourism, drinking wine followed by olives and cheese all paid for in Drahma;

- Peloponnese isn't going anywhere;

- Everybody will be happier - Greeks, Visitors, Banks (Greek Banks).

I love the big fluffy round puffs on the shoes of the ceremonial guards almost as much as the way they walk!

Edited July 4, 2015 by ABCer