Dentistry in Thailand - A salutary waring from Australia

[F4UCorsair]

konying said, "Nothing but scare mongering as dentists in Australia are losing hundreds of patients and millions of dollars.".

Exactly konyig. I recall the TV program 60 Minutes doing a job on Bali some years back, and it was subsequently revealed that the program had been sponsored, travel, hotels and all expenses, by the Australian Hotels Association!!!

[F4UCorsair]

despite my typo on the title, this is a warning....it's up to you if you heed it or not.

I think I've explained quite clearly how it pertains to Thailand in particular. (NB - this is a Thai forum too)

That's a waring about Australian dental practices, not about Thai!!! You've assumed that Thai dentists don't, or won't, self regulate. I'm sure some don't, and I'm equally sure that a lot do, exactly as it is in Australia, or the UK, or US, etc., most do, but a few don't. I know mine does.

You see, even with what you would see as good oversighting of dentists in Australia, this happens, but I'm sure it's not widespread.

I will continue to visit my Thai dentist, and I certainly won't be going to the practices named in the article in Australia for dental services.

watcharacters, you're right. It is possible to go online and read reviews of dental services in other countries. I recently read a review of a dentist in Bali, and it was horrible, yet I had a friend who had a root canal job done at a different Bali dentist, and he swore it was great, good hygiene, and not much over $100!!

Edited July 31, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[cumgranosalum]

UK Degree in Dentistry? Really???

[cumgranosalum]

The message in the OP is quite simple - Australia has systems in place that monitor dentists quite well....there are no such guarantees in Thailand....in the event of a "mishap" there is virtually no come back.

You need to be an expert to assess a dentist and patients aren't experts - even the ones who are dentists.....

So don't come crying to me when bacteria have eaten into your jawbone or the septicaemia has spread to your brain. (Judging by some of the posts it's to late for that anyway)

Edited July 31, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[F4UCorsair]

So what's the solution cumgranosalum? Don't ever go to any dentist because of the fear of an infection?

I'm sure you won't have hordes crying to you when 'bacteria have eaten into their jawbones or the septicaemia has spread to their brains', in spite of your dire warnings.

You say, "You need to be an expert to assess a dentist and patients aren't experts - even the ones who are dentists.....". So how does one find a dentist? Should I call the Dental Board for a recommendation? That would be like calling the Law Society for a lawyer recommendation. They have no bad practitioners!! I'm serious....how should I find a good dentist if even patients who are dentists can't make a recommendation. This gets sillier with each post.

You seem to be the type of person who must have the last word, so go ahead.

Edited July 31, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[cumgranosalum]

I think you make my point?

How do you think this came about in Australia? Do you think this could come to light in Thailand? the answer is an emphatic no.

The whole point is that in Thailand there are no true regulatory authorities that have any interest in consumer affairs.... independent or ortherwise. ...and legal comeback is virtually impossible and not an option for anyone who doesn't have a surplus of time and money on their hands.

As for the Law Society - in the UK they have a regulatory body, In Leamington Spa and Birmingham. If you suspect there is a problem there I'd suggest you contact them....in Thailand? nothing....

PS - I didn't think I'd need to explain that my examples were intended to be hyperbolic.

Edited August 1, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[F4UCorsair]

Let me tell you cumgranosalum, the Law Society is not there to protect the public, and I know that from personal experience.

I doubt it's any different with the Dental Board, but you didn't reply to my question....is the solution to never go to the dentist because of the fear of infection? If you call the Dental Board for a recommendation, and it seems you're not prepared to accept the recommendation of consumers, even dentist consumers, all they will tell you is that the particular dentist is registered, no more.

[cumgranosalum]

Let me tell you cumgranosalum, the Law Society is not there to protect the public, and I know that from personal experience.

I doubt it's any different with the Dental Board, but you didn't reply to my question....is the solution to never go to the dentist because of the fear of infection? If you call the Dental Board for a recommendation, and it seems you're not prepared to accept the recommendation of consumers, even dentist consumers, all they will tell you is that the particular dentist is registered, no more.

You don't seem to realise how facile a statement that is...(it's the SRA btw)

read the OP - if you have a problem put it forward.

[Sandy Freckle]

Some may choose to think this topic is dead and buried….., not me.
I originally travelled to Bangkok in early 2013 to 'self assess' one of the bigger dental treatment organizations. I'n Australia I was looking at dentures or a huge dental bill to basically restore my whole mouth…., I have no professional Dental grounding…, I am merely a consumer who did not want dentures and so I researched as much as I could for nearly a year…, I looked online and directly sought out others who had undertaken offshore dental treatment…, talking directly with many, many people re: their dental treatment experiences.
To cut to the chase…, after all the research, I finally decided to simply travel to Bangkok to self assess the one organization who while expensive by Thai standards was still around 1/3 of the estimated Australian cost.
Anyway the outcome is that I've had 4 previous dental treatment visits now, and one final treatment visit due April next year. I continue to be impressed…, on many levels ! When it's all finished I'll have had a whole mouth full of various root canals, crowns, bone grafts and implants over nearly 3 years.
Pain management - the worst day was 7 root canals and 8 hours in the chair.., but then at 9:30pm I was told "That will be the worst of it"…, and to "go away and eat something nice !"
The service was also impressive.., better than I had ever experienced in any Australian dental surgery. Their due diligence(even when I was back home) has never failed to impress me.
Cleanliness - Granted, I'm no expert…, but where ever I looked in their 6 floor building, in every corner or surface, it was simply spotless…, all the orthodontic and orthopedic surgeons say they sterilize using autoclave equipment etc - I can on take them on their word…, I simply just trusted.
Before I embarked on all this dental work, I was really between a rock and a hark hard place and quite anxious….., now I am almost evangelical about the new much more healthy life I've actually purchased for myself…., also, now I can smile and eat anything I choose…, before I would bow head/hide my teeth and eat softer more processed food….., no more !
After my last visit in June for bone grafts(with inbuilt prosthesis abutments for final implant placement in April), I want to an Australian Dentist to have the 20 stitches removed. That local dentist did the job I asked of him and during the resulting conversation said he was very impressed with the work. Another dentist I recently talked with in a casually family gathering asked to look at the work, he was also complimentary.
But, the reality is that 20 or 30 years down the track if these new pseudo choppers are still working fine, then I can truly know they've worked out fine !
Anyway it was all my free choice of action.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Sandy Freckle

[F4UCorsair]

That won't be good enough for some here though Sandy Freckle. \You need a body to complain to because.........the work was carried out professionally and hygienically???

[cumgranosalum]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

My main arguments against any form of healthcare in Thailand are the lack of legal comeback, poorly trained and unmonitored staff and a lack of independent monitoring.

I referred to Australia as an example of a system the WORKS in the event of something going wrong....

Neil Hewson, president of the Australian Dental Association says overseas work is a gamble and likens it to a lottery.

Fairfax website “Traveller” carries this warning by Dr Hewson about dental care abroad...........

Australian dentists are heavily regulated and should something go wrong there are strict follow-up procedures nationally.

"If you don't get satisfaction there are complaints commission boards and even courts if you need (them) to give you a chance to protect yourself," he says.

However overseas, "you don't have any of those things".

Implants are particularly open to being subject to any of these as the procedures take so long.......

Cheap pricing and the lure of a holiday thrown in makes the idea of treatment in Thailand very appealing - but there is considerably more to healthcare than simple over the counter costs, and many fail to taker these “hidden” extras and costs into account.

Firstly a lot of the problems associated with implants take a long time to manifest and there is a serious chance that Thai dentists fail to communicate the pitfalls properly - one reason for this is that they realise that a foreigner is often unlikely to come back one or two years late to go over the problems - even if they are aware of them.

Testimonies - These sound great, but the truth is the testimony of a layman is worthless and the plural of anecdote isn’t data.

Just as there are plenty of anecdotes of satisfied customers, there are also plenty of stories of disasters - but they are both irrelevant - it is the general overall situation that needs to be take into account - and the situation in Thailand is FAR more risky than Australia, Europe or even the USA. That is quite demonstrable.

It is safe to assume that the majority of people who have dental work in Thailand are satisfied with the results - even though we have no way of assessing the treatment or its future performance...or if their “satisfaction” remains for the next decade or so....or even if they had the most appropriate treatment in the first place.

What it boils down to is risk assessment. Although the monetary saving s appear great (at least at first) there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration.

For me the risk is that the stakes are in most case simply way too high, you are betting your future health and finances on a system that however well equipped is in reality virtually unregulated, riddled with corruption and has little or no legal/financial comeback in the event of a problem.....if you loose you stand to lose EVERYTHING....financial and health.

Figures bandied about in Europe US and Oz suggest that..... More than 95% are completed without incident.

The majority of the problems that do occur are minor and easily resolved.

BUT - preferably you need to go back to the dentist who did the work. If left undetected or untended to than it can get more serious. Untreated infections will erode your (bone)

“If something does go wrong, consult your dentist or surgeon as soon as possible. A fast response enables them to take corrective actions before you or the implant is threatened by additional (more serious) problems, which is why it’s important to be aware of the possible complications.” - [Mayo clinic]

However in Thailand no figures are available and no-one is checking. So as a layman it is virtually impossible to get anything but an anecdotal idea of what is going on.....and as said, the plural of anecdote is not data.

This is what you pay for at home..... there is constant monitoring by independent organisations.......

“King's College London Dental Institute, - “.......the way patients were treated before and after implant surgery was not good enough.”

"......It is vital that patients understand the risks of this type of surgery, and clinicians must improve their systems and procedures.

- (do you seriously think this takes place in Thailand???) -

[bBC].

Here’s a quick rundown of some of the problems that can be encountered - has you Thai dentist gone through this with you? Did you even bother to ask?

· Failed Osseointegration - This may not be apparent until a year or more after the procedure. So are you prepared for going back to your Thai dentist to sort this?

· Infection at the implant site - (See the Australian article I mentioned before)

· Injury or damage to surrounding structures, such as other teeth or blood vessels

· Nerve damage, which can cause pain, numbness or tingling in your natural teeth, gums, lips or chin. - (This is on the increase - In 2007, 30% of all nerve injuries cause by dental work were associated with implants. This contrasts with 10% in 1997.)

· Sinus problems, when dental implants placed in the upper jaw protrude into one of your sinus cavities

· Patients who have been missing teeth for months or years often require bone grafts before they can get implants.

Poor training, improperly qualified staff, hygiene regimes and practices that are run without independent monitoring make all these problems more likely in Thailand.

As a footnote here is a problem with dental implants that can take decades to manifest.......

Peri-implantitis: The 'time bomb’ in dental implants

Daily Telegraph July 2014........

This person found out about the problem 12 years after treatment and returned to her ORIGINAL dentist for treatment - would you be able to do that in with your Thai dentist???

“Studies have suggested that one third of patients will be infected. “We’re sitting on a time bomb,” says Dr Stephen Jacobs, a past president of the Association of Dental Implantology and well-respected implant surgeon. “We are going to be seeing more and more cases.”

Peri-implantitis is always preceded by a much milder disease, called peri-implant mucositis, which is common and treatable. Early warning signs are red, swollen gums and bleeding when probed. If undetected and untreated, it might become peri-implantitis.”

OK - not convinced? Well if you ARE still going abroad for treatment try finding these things out before you go

1. Where was the dentist trained? -

Just a certificate on the wall carrying the phrase “of America” - in NOT sufficient

2. Is it a reputable university? -

Easier said than done

3. Are you absolutely confident you will receive quality professional treatment and care? -

As a layperson you’ll never really know...

4. Can I get quick redress in the event of ANY problems? -Where?

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Edited August 21, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[Sandy Freckle]

So many people choosing to nay say…, seemingly as a first default action/reaction to so many things…., especially with regard other peoples choices in life.
With regard to my dental treatments in Thailand, I did my due diligence research and went with it.
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Sandy Freckle

[cumgranosalum]

So many people choosing to nay say, seemingly as a first default action/reaction to so many things., especially with regard other peoples choices in life.

With regard to my dental treatments in Thailand, I did my due diligence research and went with it.

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

As is a life with a seriously debilitated mouth or jaw.

[F4UCorsair]

You won't 'win' it Freckle. Some MUST have the last word.

My dentist in Bangkok, incidentally, gives a 2 year warranty on ALL work, and I know of NO dentist in Australia who gives any sort of warranty, except that he warrants he'll clean out your wallet.

Certainly when I first went to Thailand for dental work, it was as a result of my own dentist botching a root canal job, and then to cover his tracks, lying about how many root canals a sub molar had, and referring me to his even more expensive 'mate' in Melbourne city who wanted to charge $600 an hour. My own guy's rate was $400 an hour.

When I told the dentist in Bangkok the history, she asked for his address so she could write to him and point out his lack of knowledge!!!

What is not pointed out is that redress is not automatic in Australia, and if you go to court, which is almost inevitable because the professional body will not order compensation, it will be at your cost, and with no guarantee that you will win. Because you think you are right, or even because the dentist has been sanctioned by their professional body, does not ensure a win in court....I know from bitter experience. Your dentist has deeper pockets than you do, and shorter arms. He does not want to pay anything, and if it's his insurance company you are fighting, then your bills go up inversely proportionally to your chances of a win coming down.

It's now 5 years, or maybe 6, since I first went to a Bangkok dentist, root canal, post, crown, and several procedures since, including an extraction, and I couldn't be happier.

Edited August 22, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[cumgranosalum]

As I said the plural of anecdote is not data...... (I've deiberately avoided the horror stories) - you don't seem to realise that you aren't addressing anything I've put forward.

Edited August 22, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[3mike26]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

...

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Thanks for your advice. It's good to know what could possibly go wrong. However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress.

With the outrageous fees charged here the last thing on dentists minds is lower prices, increased productivity, competitiveness, better value for customers. Yes this could be the first time you have seen these concepts mentioned in the same breath as oz dentistry.

The quotes we see bandied about in the $10,000's for a few missing teeth are absolutely disgusting - no not to you, you think it's great. You can't justify it by saying, yeah but if something goes wrong you can go back to the same dentist (not that you can't in Thailand btw); and also of course, that same dentist will most likely not rectify the issue free, but will disugustingly charge even more outrageous amounts (speaking from experience here).

In regards to your lottery analogy "In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it"

I would say, to afford good dentistry here you need to first win the lottery; meanwhile dentists have golden lucky lottery tickets that keep winning week after week.

[cumgranosalum]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

...

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Thanks for your advice. It's good to know what could possibly go wrong. However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress.

With the outrageous fees charged here the last thing on dentists minds is lower prices, increased productivity, competitiveness, better value for customers. Yes this could be the first time you have seen these concepts mentioned in the same breath as oz dentistry.

The quotes we see bandied about in the $10,000's for a few missing teeth are absolutely disgusting - no not to you, you think it's great. You can't justify it by saying, yeah but if something goes wrong you can go back to the same dentist (not that you can't in Thailand btw); and also of course, that same dentist will most likely not rectify the issue free, but will disugustingly charge even more outrageous amounts (speaking from experience here).

In regards to your lottery analogy "In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it"

I would say, to afford good dentistry here you need to first win the lottery; meanwhile dentists have golden lucky lottery tickets that keep winning week after week.

" However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress."

Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong and less likely to get any redress......and unlikely to get "costs" in a Thai court either

In Thailand due to inappropriate training lack of monitoring etc you get staff....not just the dentists who are unqualified to undertake the procedures...... this is a result of the thoroughly corrupt training/education systems in Thailand and the corruption involved in the event of any "negligence" etc etc.

the result is that

1 - things are MORE likely to go wrong in Thailand

2 - You are FAR less likely to get any redress if they do.....the process is painfully slow, the costs are therefore very high and any compensation is tiny.

If you re in any doubt about this try to find any successful actions against doctors, dentists or healthcare staff in Thailand. THere are one or two that succeed but then you need to look at how long this took and what the final "settlements" were. Answer ages and minute.

It costs to run an effective, safe and well run medical practice of any kind....not just salaries, it requires finance from the ground up...many costs equipment etc are more or less the same worldwide so where do the "savings" come from? Lack of necessary monitoring bodies, fees for associations that monitor, lack of training, lack of policing, lack of sufficient compulsory re-training and updating of procedures, and hygiene protocols.........you pay less you get less.

PS - you DO realise don't you that I'm not arguing about Australian dentistry - I'm using them as an example of the kind of procedures available to us in "westernised", democratic countries....as opposed to the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism., in particular in Thailand

Edited August 23, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[3mike26]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

...

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Thanks for your advice. It's good to know what could possibly go wrong. However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress.

With the outrageous fees charged here the last thing on dentists minds is lower prices, increased productivity, competitiveness, better value for customers. Yes this could be the first time you have seen these concepts mentioned in the same breath as oz dentistry.

The quotes we see bandied about in the $10,000's for a few missing teeth are absolutely disgusting - no not to you, you think it's great. You can't justify it by saying, yeah but if something goes wrong you can go back to the same dentist (not that you can't in Thailand btw); and also of course, that same dentist will most likely not rectify the issue free, but will disugustingly charge even more outrageous amounts (speaking from experience here).

In regards to your lottery analogy "In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it"

I would say, to afford good dentistry here you need to first win the lottery; meanwhile dentists have golden lucky lottery tickets that keep winning week after week.

" However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress."

Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong and less likely to get any redress......and unlikely to get "costs" in a Thai court either

In Thailand due to inappropriate training lack of monitoring etc you get staff....not just the dentists who are unqualified to undertake the procedures...... this is a result of the thoroughly corrupt training/education systems in Thailand and the corruption involved in the event of any "negligence" etc etc.

the result is that

1 - things are MORE likely to go wrong in Thailand

2 - You are FAR less likely to get any redress if they do.....the process is painfully slow, the costs are therefore very high and any compensation is tiny.

If you re in any doubt about this try to find any successful actions against doctors, dentists or healthcare staff in Thailand. THere are one or two that succeed but then you need to look at how long this took and what the final "settlements" were. Answer ages and minute.

It costs to run an effective, safe and well run medical practice of any kind....not just salaries, it requires finance from the ground up...many costs equipment etc are more or less the same worldwide so where do the "savings" come from? Lack of necessary monitoring bodies, fees for associations that monitor, lack of training, lack of policing, lack of sufficient compulsory re-training and updating of procedures, and hygiene protocols.........you pay less you get less.

PS - you DO realise don't you that I'm not arguing about Australian dentistry - I'm using them as an example of the kind of procedures available to us in "westernised", democratic countries....as opposed to the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism., in particular in Thailand

"Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong "

I wasn't addressing the probability. I was pointing out that things can go wrong in either country, since you implied they could only go wrong in Thailand.

However since you tell me what I'm saying isn't true, please point me to your source, I am curious to see the actual numbers.

Oh yes that's right, you already said there are no numbers, it's all anecdotal. Apology accepted.

As for costs/productivty/etc, yeah, the sun will freeze over first, I get that. Maybe you could have a laugh about this with your buddies at your next meeting, after you've quaffed a few decent bottles of wine, and pecked at those $600 platters of hors d'oeuvres.

"the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism" you're digging yourself into a hole there; lost all credulity.

ist random google the following came up: Looking at qualifications, these people are likely better qualified than you:

http://www.thailanddentalhospital.com/dental_hospital/aboutus_dental_implant_training.htm

Team of Implantologists at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

chatchai

Dr.Chatchai Kunavisarut DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Prosthodontics), University of North Carolina, USA

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Implants), University of Florida, USA

MSc. Prosthetic Dentistry, University of North Carolina, USA

Ex-Lecturer in Prosthodontics at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Prosthodontics and Implantology at Mahidol University

Kittichote

Dr. Kittichote Boonsri DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Basic Medical Science in Dentistry, University of London , UK

Ex-Lecturer in Oral Surgery at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Implantology at Mahidol University

MSc. Implant Dentistry, University of London, UK

mayuree

Dr. Mayuree Kitmahawong DDS.

Certificate in Implant Dentistry, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics for International Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Ex-lecture in Prosthodontics at New York University

Pikayul

Dr. Piyakul Oparkcharden DDS, MDS.,

DDS. ( 2nd Class Honors ), Chulalongkorn University

Graduate Diploma in Clinical Dentistry , Adelaide University, Australia

Master of Dental Surgery (Prosthodontics), Adelaide University, Australia

vichulada

Dr. Vichulada Phunthikaphadr DDS, MS.,

Certificate in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Endodontics, Mahidol University, Thailand

warchira

Dr. Wachira Cherdjirapong DDS,

DDS., Mahidol University

Post-graduate in Periodontics, Mahidol University

Fellowship of International congress of oral Implantology.,USA

Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon for Implantology at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

Dr. Amornpong Vachiramon DDS., MSc., PhD.,

MFDSRCPS(Glasg), MOSRCS(Ed), FDSRCS(Eng), FFDRCSI

MSc. in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, University College London

MSc. Orthodontics, University of London

Certificate in Maxillofacial Prosthetics, University College London

Craniofacial and cleft Surgery fellowship, University of Southern California

Makes my local seem more like the wild frontier.

[cumgranosalum]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

...

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Thanks for your advice. It's good to know what could possibly go wrong. However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress.

With the outrageous fees charged here the last thing on dentists minds is lower prices, increased productivity, competitiveness, better value for customers. Yes this could be the first time you have seen these concepts mentioned in the same breath as oz dentistry.

The quotes we see bandied about in the $10,000's for a few missing teeth are absolutely disgusting - no not to you, you think it's great. You can't justify it by saying, yeah but if something goes wrong you can go back to the same dentist (not that you can't in Thailand btw); and also of course, that same dentist will most likely not rectify the issue free, but will disugustingly charge even more outrageous amounts (speaking from experience here).

In regards to your lottery analogy "In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it"

I would say, to afford good dentistry here you need to first win the lottery; meanwhile dentists have golden lucky lottery tickets that keep winning week after week.

" However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress."

Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong and less likely to get any redress......and unlikely to get "costs" in a Thai court either

In Thailand due to inappropriate training lack of monitoring etc you get staff....not just the dentists who are unqualified to undertake the procedures...... this is a result of the thoroughly corrupt training/education systems in Thailand and the corruption involved in the event of any "negligence" etc etc.

the result is that

1 - things are MORE likely to go wrong in Thailand

2 - You are FAR less likely to get any redress if they do.....the process is painfully slow, the costs are therefore very high and any compensation is tiny.

If you re in any doubt about this try to find any successful actions against doctors, dentists or healthcare staff in Thailand. THere are one or two that succeed but then you need to look at how long this took and what the final "settlements" were. Answer ages and minute.

It costs to run an effective, safe and well run medical practice of any kind....not just salaries, it requires finance from the ground up...many costs equipment etc are more or less the same worldwide so where do the "savings" come from? Lack of necessary monitoring bodies, fees for associations that monitor, lack of training, lack of policing, lack of sufficient compulsory re-training and updating of procedures, and hygiene protocols.........you pay less you get less.

PS - you DO realise don't you that I'm not arguing about Australian dentistry - I'm using them as an example of the kind of procedures available to us in "westernised", democratic countries....as opposed to the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism., in particular in Thailand

"Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong "

I wasn't addressing the probability. I was pointing out that things can go wrong in either country, since you implied they could only go wrong in Thailand.

However since you tell me what I'm saying isn't true, please point me to your source, I am curious to see the actual numbers.

Oh yes that's right, you already said there are no numbers, it's all anecdotal. Apology accepted.

As for costs/productivty/etc, yeah, the sun will freeze over first, I get that. Maybe you could have a laugh about this with your buddies at your next meeting, after you've quaffed a few decent bottles of wine, and pecked at those $600 platters of hors d'oeuvres.

"the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism" you're digging yourself into a hole there; lost all credulity.

ist random google the following came up: Looking at qualifications, these people are likely better qualified than you:

http://www.thailanddentalhospital.com/dental_hospital/aboutus_dental_implant_training.htm

Team of Implantologists at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

chatchai

Dr.Chatchai Kunavisarut DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Prosthodontics), University of North Carolina, USA

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Implants), University of Florida, USA

MSc. Prosthetic Dentistry, University of North Carolina, USA

Ex-Lecturer in Prosthodontics at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Prosthodontics and Implantology at Mahidol University

Kittichote

Dr. Kittichote Boonsri DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Basic Medical Science in Dentistry, University of London , UK

Ex-Lecturer in Oral Surgery at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Implantology at Mahidol University

MSc. Implant Dentistry, University of London, UK

mayuree

Dr. Mayuree Kitmahawong DDS.

Certificate in Implant Dentistry, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics for International Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Ex-lecture in Prosthodontics at New York University

Pikayul

Dr. Piyakul Oparkcharden DDS, MDS.,

DDS. ( 2nd Class Honors ), Chulalongkorn University

Graduate Diploma in Clinical Dentistry , Adelaide University, Australia

Master of Dental Surgery (Prosthodontics), Adelaide University, Australia

vichulada

Dr. Vichulada Phunthikaphadr DDS, MS.,

Certificate in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Endodontics, Mahidol University, Thailand

warchira

Dr. Wachira Cherdjirapong DDS,

DDS., Mahidol University

Post-graduate in Periodontics, Mahidol University

Fellowship of International congress of oral Implantology.,USA

Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon for Implantology at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

Dr. Amornpong Vachiramon DDS., MSc., PhD.,

MFDSRCPS(Glasg), MOSRCS(Ed), FDSRCS(Eng), FFDRCSI

MSc. in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, University College London

MSc. Orthodontics, University of London

Certificate in Maxillofacial Prosthetics, University College London

Craniofacial and cleft Surgery fellowship, University of Southern California

Makes my local seem more like the wild frontier.

"Looking at qualifications, these people are likely better qualified than you:"

what an absurd thing to say.

you then follow with a .ist of qualifications....what on earth is that supposed to prove? Do you seriously think that people with no training at all would be capable of setting up a dental surgery?

do you think ALL Thai dentists have these certificates

Do ou understand what these certificates are?

[cumgranosalum]

Dental Implants - possible problems....

...

In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it

Thanks for your advice. It's good to know what could possibly go wrong. However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress.

With the outrageous fees charged here the last thing on dentists minds is lower prices, increased productivity, competitiveness, better value for customers. Yes this could be the first time you have seen these concepts mentioned in the same breath as oz dentistry.

The quotes we see bandied about in the $10,000's for a few missing teeth are absolutely disgusting - no not to you, you think it's great. You can't justify it by saying, yeah but if something goes wrong you can go back to the same dentist (not that you can't in Thailand btw); and also of course, that same dentist will most likely not rectify the issue free, but will disugustingly charge even more outrageous amounts (speaking from experience here).

In regards to your lottery analogy "In the end it’s up to you....good luck, like a lottery, you may need it"

I would say, to afford good dentistry here you need to first win the lottery; meanwhile dentists have golden lucky lottery tickets that keep winning week after week.

" However most if not all of what can go wrong in Thailand can equally go wrong in Australia where it will be very expensive to redress."

Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong and less likely to get any redress......and unlikely to get "costs" in a Thai court either

In Thailand due to inappropriate training lack of monitoring etc you get staff....not just the dentists who are unqualified to undertake the procedures...... this is a result of the thoroughly corrupt training/education systems in Thailand and the corruption involved in the event of any "negligence" etc etc.

the result is that

1 - things are MORE likely to go wrong in Thailand

2 - You are FAR less likely to get any redress if they do.....the process is painfully slow, the costs are therefore very high and any compensation is tiny.

If you re in any doubt about this try to find any successful actions against doctors, dentists or healthcare staff in Thailand. THere are one or two that succeed but then you need to look at how long this took and what the final "settlements" were. Answer ages and minute.

It costs to run an effective, safe and well run medical practice of any kind....not just salaries, it requires finance from the ground up...many costs equipment etc are more or less the same worldwide so where do the "savings" come from? Lack of necessary monitoring bodies, fees for associations that monitor, lack of training, lack of policing, lack of sufficient compulsory re-training and updating of procedures, and hygiene protocols.........you pay less you get less.

PS - you DO realise don't you that I'm not arguing about Australian dentistry - I'm using them as an example of the kind of procedures available to us in "westernised", democratic countries....as opposed to the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism., in particular in Thailand

"Part of my argument is that this isn't true. In Thailand they are MORE ;likely to go wrong "

I wasn't addressing the probability. I was pointing out that things can go wrong in either country, since you implied they could only go wrong in Thailand.

However since you tell me what I'm saying isn't true, please point me to your source, I am curious to see the actual numbers.

Oh yes that's right, you already said there are no numbers, it's all anecdotal. Apology accepted.

As for costs/productivty/etc, yeah, the sun will freeze over first, I get that. Maybe you could have a laugh about this with your buddies at your next meeting, after you've quaffed a few decent bottles of wine, and pecked at those $600 platters of hors d'oeuvres.

"the "wild frontiers" of medical tourism" you're digging yourself into a hole there; lost all credulity.

ist random google the following came up: Looking at qualifications, these people are likely better qualified than you:

http://www.thailanddentalhospital.com/dental_hospital/aboutus_dental_implant_training.htm

Team of Implantologists at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

chatchai

Dr.Chatchai Kunavisarut DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Prosthodontics), University of North Carolina, USA

Certificate in Clinical Dentistry (Implants), University of Florida, USA

MSc. Prosthetic Dentistry, University of North Carolina, USA

Ex-Lecturer in Prosthodontics at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Prosthodontics and Implantology at Mahidol University

Kittichote

Dr. Kittichote Boonsri DDS., MSc.,

Certificate in Basic Medical Science in Dentistry, University of London , UK

Ex-Lecturer in Oral Surgery at Prince of Songkla University

Full-time Lecturer in Implantology at Mahidol University

MSc. Implant Dentistry, University of London, UK

mayuree

Dr. Mayuree Kitmahawong DDS.

Certificate in Implant Dentistry, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics for International Dentistry, New York, USA

Certificate in Prosthodontics, New York University, College of Dentistry, New York, USA

Ex-lecture in Prosthodontics at New York University

Pikayul

Dr. Piyakul Oparkcharden DDS, MDS.,

DDS. ( 2nd Class Honors ), Chulalongkorn University

Graduate Diploma in Clinical Dentistry , Adelaide University, Australia

Master of Dental Surgery (Prosthodontics), Adelaide University, Australia

vichulada

Dr. Vichulada Phunthikaphadr DDS, MS.,

Certificate in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Restorative Dentistry, University of Michigan.Ann Arbor, USA

Master Degree in Endodontics, Mahidol University, Thailand

warchira

Dr. Wachira Cherdjirapong DDS,

DDS., Mahidol University

Post-graduate in Periodontics, Mahidol University

Fellowship of International congress of oral Implantology.,USA

Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon for Implantology at Bangkok International Dental Center (BIDC)

Dr. Amornpong Vachiramon DDS., MSc., PhD.,

MFDSRCPS(Glasg), MOSRCS(Ed), FDSRCS(Eng), FFDRCSI

MSc. in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, University College London

MSc. Orthodontics, University of London

Certificate in Maxillofacial Prosthetics, University College London

Craniofacial and cleft Surgery fellowship, University of Southern California

Makes my local seem more like the wild frontier.

"Looking at qualifications, these people are likely better qualified than you:"

what an absurd thing to say.

you then follow with a .ist of qualifications....what on earth is that supposed to prove? Do you seriously think that people with no training at all would be capable of setting up a dental surgery?

do you think ALL Thai dentists have these certificates

Do ou understand what these certificates are?

Let me draw you attention again to the 4 points I mentioned earlier - in particular points 1 & 2......

1. Where was the dentist trained? -

Just a certificate on the wall carrying the phrase “of America” - in NOT sufficient

1. Is it a reputable university? -

Easier said than done

1. Are you absolutely confident you will receive quality professional treatment and care? -

As a layperson you’ll never really know...

1. Can I get quick redress in the event of ANY problems? -Where?

Edited August 24, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[3mike26]

"

what an absurd thing to say.

you then follow with a .ist of qualifications....what on earth is that supposed to prove?

"

You characterise them as the "wild frontier"; yet they have advanced degrees from reputable uni's including Australian uni's. I believe yours is the more absurd position.

"

Do you seriously think that people with no training at all would be capable of setting up a dental surgery?

"

I never suggested that at all; that's one of your fallacious constructs - that they have no training.

Other than that there is nothing new in your post.

You agree that dental work, whether in Australia or Thailand, involves is an element of risk, and with only anecdotal evidence we don't know for sure which is the riskier place. We do know for sure which is the more expensive. People are making as rational a decision as possible given the clarity of the situation, and your scaremongering is unhelpful.

[F4UCorsair]

3Mike26, he MUST have the last word. No matter what you say, what argument you put, it will be countered with further absurd contentions.

Perhaps he has shares in an Australian dental practice??

I think I may have said it earlier, but if not, I recall a current affair show in Australia 'doing a job' on Bali as a tourist destination some years back. It wasn't until some months/years later that it was revealed that the Australian Hotels Association had sponsored the film crew to travel to Bali and dig the dirt on the place as a tourist destination, no doubt hoping to improve their fortunes at the expense of Bali tourism operators.

[cumgranosalum]

"

what an absurd thing to say.

you then follow with a .ist of qualifications....what on earth is that supposed to prove?

"

You characterise them as the "wild frontier"; yet they have advanced degrees from reputable uni's including Australian uni's. I believe yours is the more absurd position.

"

Do you seriously think that people with no training at all would be capable of setting up a dental surgery?

"

I never suggested that at all; that's one of your fallacious constructs - that they have no training.

Other than that there is nothing new in your post.

You agree that dental work, whether in Australia or Thailand, involves is an element of risk, and with only anecdotal evidence we don't know for sure which is the riskier place. We do know for sure which is the more expensive. People are making as rational a decision as possible given the clarity of the situation, and your scaremongering is unhelpful.

Fallacious construct? - None there

No anecdote either.

there is NO monitoring proper comeback and corruption is rife - this is not anecdote.

[cumgranosalum]

3Mike26, he MUST have the last word. No matter what you say, what argument you put, it will be countered with further absurd contentions.

Perhaps he has shares in an Australian dental practice??

I think I may have said it earlier, but if not, I recall a current affair show in Australia 'doing a job' on Bali as a tourist destination some years back. It wasn't until some months/years later that it was revealed that the Australian Hotels Association had sponsored the film crew to travel to Bali and dig the dirt on the place as a tourist destination, no doubt hoping to improve their fortunes at the expense of Bali tourism operators.

" it will be countered with further absurd contentions." - go on then...rather than resort to ad hominem attacks, why not do something you have patently failed to do so far......point out which of my contentions you consider to be "absurd" and put forward a coherent counter argument.