SURVEY: Should Greece be allowed to remain in the Eurozone?

[mmh8]

yes if for no other reason than to provide challenges to the Germans who need this in their life. oh also to help make sure that the next haircut is coming from German pensions, and French and itzalian ones for that matter

[fvw53]

Allowed to stay in the EU? Please, who would want to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and continuously screwed by the banksters?

This is a moot question at this point Scott, considering the Greeks themselves just voted overwhelmingly to thumb their collective noses at the EU, the IMF and the ECB... Look for Italy, Spain, France and others to follow suit...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_BAILOUT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-05-16-04-15

LOPTR assumes like the Greek Finance Minister Varoufakis that the European Central Bank is a private bank, listed on the stock market, with executives getting big bonuses and playing with the deposits of the customers.

The ECB is funded by the Central Banks of the Member States (i.e. the tax payers) and some of those member states are poorer in GDP than Greece.

The Central Banks of the Members States are controlled by their elected governments...who have to explain to their tax payers why more money should go to a country of which the Finance Minister (Varoufakis) calls them terrorists !

Last week on the walls of Athens there were photos of German Finance Minister Schauble calling him a "blood sucker" : my goodness the money wasted by Greece is not his money but German tax payers money.

Of course Prime Minister Tsipras grew up as a member the Greek Communist Party...and Finance Minister Varoufakis describes himself as a libertarian Marxist : I do not know one single country where these of people have created prosperity.

(The IMF has no banking functions but was created to help member states if their balance of payments was in trouble).

[melvinmelvin]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

There are no mechanisms for being kicked out of the Eurozone. There are no mechanisms for leaving the Eurozone.

There are mechanisms in place for leaving the EU, but its a lengthy and complicated process.

[TheAppletons]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

There are no mechanisms for being kicked out of the Eurozone. There are no mechanisms for leaving the Eurozone.

There are mechanisms in place for leaving the EU, but its a lengthy and complicated process.

Ah...but there are mechanisms for the ECB to stop providing liquidity to your banking system, essentially forcing your country to start using an alternate currency.

[nidieunimaitre]

They should not have been a member of the EU in the first place.

Lets say as an entrepreneur I would have successfully gained credit from a bank by providing modified balances. Lets assume the value of the credit was much higher than the value of my company. Than I refuse to pay any installments, and referred to the repayment demand of the Bank as extortion. In a next step I hold a referendum to let my staff decide if I should pay my debts. At this point I would be in custody already awaiting my trial without room for negotiations with the prosecutor. So who is the OXI here?

If you did not confuse EU and EURO, I might take your opinion seriously.

[h90]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

There is no mechanism to force them. Well no official one, if the banks have no money it will force them to either leave or the ugly way, they could print Euro themself uncontrolled.

If they do that it will be interesting....

[fgmr]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

"Although the Eurozone is open to all EU member states to join once they meet the criteria, the treaty is silent on the matter of states leaving the Eurozone, neither prohibiting nor permitting it. Likewise there is no provision for a state to be expelled from the euro." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone)

The Eurozone started (officially) on 1 Jan 1999 with 11 countries. Greece was added in 2001 (though it supposedly "qualified" for membership in 2000). According to the CIA Factbook, Greece's ratio of public debt to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) went from 89.5% in 2007 to 113.4% in 2009. It currently shows their ratio to be around 174.5% ! That ranks them 3rd worst in the world (behind Japan surprisingly and Zimbabwe - not surprisingly). (By way of comparison, the UK sits at #28 on the list with an estimated (2014) ratio of 79.1%. The US is at #40 with a ratio of 71.2%.)

Greece's problems have been going on for awhile though. Whenever they try and "tighten the belt" the people start protesting. When they "loosen the purse strings" they go deeper in debt and deeper in trouble. It's like the Greek people have no desire to own up to their obligations or make any meaningful changes to the way they do business.

Looking at some Eurozone stats, of all the Eurozone members, Greece has, by far, the largest debt based on the Eurostat 2010 and 2011 numbers. Prior to 2010, Italy was the only country in the Eurozone with a higher debt than Greece, but Italy also had the 3rd largest Gross National Income (GNI) in the Eurozone as well (compared to Greece at the 8th highest GNI).

With all this debt floating around who are the gainers. I am no economist but China's leaders must be laughing their socks off. What a house of cards? I expect there will soon be a bull market in precious metals!

[TheAppletons]

if they can manage their financial problems there is no reason to leave. And....THEY will decide (not the other Euro Zone members) because there are NO regulations for this case in the EU.

However, if there is no money coming from CB Frankfurt they have to be very creative.

For stability of the Euro Zone it might be better to find a better program for Greece to create more growth. Say Good Bye to austerity. It doesn't work for Greece.

"The problem with that line of argument is that there was no Greek austerity: Greece lied about its debts before the crisis, and it lied about its reforms after the bailout. It didn’t take the meat axe to its public sector: Greece went out and hired 70,000 new government employees instead. It stopped selling government assets, which it had agreed to do, and government’s share of GDP actually increased rather than declining."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420634/greece-puerto-rico-default?XyY20RcfdPhGylYU.01

[NongKhaiKid]

Have just heard on CNN that there's now predictions that the likelihood of a ' Grexit ' has gone up from 25 to 60%.

Unfortunately I didn't hear the start of the report so i hope I've not missed anything affecting context etc.

[nidieunimaitre]

Here's what everyone is afraid of, in some form or another. It's called "fractional reserve banking" and it's in play in all major markets.

This is a true story. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

You and I open a new bank. We have no deposits or loans or cash in the safe.

Joe comes in to open an account. He deposits $100. We now have $100 in liabilities because we owe him the money.

Pete comes in and wants to do the same thing. We now have $200 in liabilities - money owed to depositors.

Jane comes in and wants to borrow $100 and we loan her that much of Joe and Pete's deposits. That loan is our asset - money owed to us.

Jane wants her loan proceeds deposited to a new deposit account so we do that.

We now have $300 in total deposits made out of just the $200 that Joe and Pete gave us. We are magicians, creating new money. We have increased the total money supply available to all by 50% with a stroke of the pen. Everyone has $100 but we have just $200 in the vault - Joe and Pete's money.

If everyone wants his money out of the bank at the same time we are screwed. This is a good system in good or decent times and a nightmare when it's contracting.

Greece is contracting and no one in Europe knows what to do about it. They can't give Pete and Joe their money because they don't have it - they loaned it to Jane. Jane doesn't have it because she spent it.

The Euro has already crashed once, about 3 1/5 years ago, and only a loan (currency swap) by the US Federal Reserve of USD$2 trillion bailed them out. Another true story. Watch out below.... Wall Street Journal - The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe.

That's not a tinfoil hat site. That's the WSJ.

Cheers

Very true, and nothing new, as this system goes back hundreds of years. It started when banknotes were invented.

So the important question becomes: Can we think of an economic system that is not based on fractional reserve banking (also known as credit multiplication, or money creation by private banks).

Edit: unfortunately, the WSJ article is available for subscribers only.

Edited July 6, 2015 by nidieunimaitre

[Gulfsailor]

Varoufakis has resigned over concerns that creditors no longer want him at the negotiating table.

[VINCENT2012]

It's probably best for Greece and for the EU in general for Greece to exit both the Eurozone and the EU. Let them figure out how to get their house in order and then maybe re-join.

i voted no.........but i was thinking the same thing as credo...it is the greec who have to get out and make a new start.........but....... without the actual banking systeme and all politician who are the cause of the ruin of that country.

[Scott]

An inflammatory, off-topic post and reply has been removed.

[TheAppletons]

The Greek Finance Minister, Yannis Varoufakis, just quit.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806716

[IMA_FARANG]

I voted no.

Not because I want Greece out of the Eurozone, I want the Eurozone dissolved with Spain, Portugal, and Italy out also.

Eventually the U.K. also and (as I described it in another topic ) the U.K.'s Ben Dover government.

As I said there, if you want to stay in the Eurozone accept it's type of Ben Dover democracy.

Ben Dover Drop your trousers and Ben Dover for one in the Eurozone.

[IMA_FARANG]

The Greek Finance Minister, Yannis Varoufakis, just quit.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806716

------------------------------------

He said last week that he would rather cut off his right arm than sign a new bailout deal.

He's really not a Ben Dover politician.

[fvw53]

Here's what everyone is afraid of, in some form or another. It's called "fractional reserve banking" and it's in play in all major markets.

This is a true story. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

You and I open a new bank. We have no deposits or loans or cash in the safe.

Joe comes in to open an account. He deposits $100. We now have $100 in liabilities because we owe him the money.

Pete comes in and wants to do the same thing. We now have $200 in liabilities - money owed to depositors.

Jane comes in and wants to borrow $100 and we loan her that much of Joe and Pete's deposits. That loan is our asset - money owed to us.

Jane wants her loan proceeds deposited to a new deposit account so we do that.

We now have $300 in total deposits made out of just the $200 that Joe and Pete gave us. We are magicians, creating new money. We have increased the total money supply available to all by 50% with a stroke of the pen. Everyone has $100 but we have just $200 in the vault - Joe and Pete's money.

If everyone wants his money out of the bank at the same time we are screwed. This is a good system in good or decent times and a nightmare when it's contracting.

Greece is contracting and no one in Europe knows what to do about it. They can't give Pete and Joe their money because they don't have it - they loaned it to Jane. Jane doesn't have it because she spent it.

The Euro has already crashed once, about 3 1/5 years ago, and only a loan (currency swap) by the US Federal Reserve of USD$2 trillion bailed them out. Another true story. Watch out below.... Wall Street Journal - The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe.

That's not a tinfoil hat site. That's the WSJ.

Cheers

Very true, and nothing new, as this system goes back hundreds of years. It started when banknotes were invented.

So the important question becomes: Can we think of an economic system that is not based on fractional reserve banking (also known as credit multiplication, or money creation by private banks).

Edit: unfortunately, the WSJ article is available for subscribers only.

Read

http://www.thegreekcrisis.net/ and

http://www.greekcrisis.net/2011/12/federal-reserves-covert-bailout-of.html

[nidieunimaitre]

Varoufakis has resigned over concerns that creditors no longer want him at the negotiating table.

Hopefully, as a gesture of good will, Draghi will resign too (surely he can go back to Goldman Sachs), and also Dijsselbloem (he can start a career as second hand car salesman or as time share expert, he has the perfect suit for it). Lagarde will have more difficulty finding a job, as she only got her current job because the IMF needed a woman, after the Straus Kahn debacle.

Edited July 6, 2015 by nidieunimaitre

[wabothai]

Greece was and is not ready to sit at the same table as the big boys and girls. And for that matter Thailand is neither.

[fvw53]

Varoufakis has resigned over concerns that creditors no longer want him at the negotiating table.

Hopefully, as a gesture of good will, Draghi will resign too (surely he can go back to Goldman Sachs), and also Dijsselbloem (he can start a career as second hand car salesman or as time share expert, he has the perfect suit for it). Lagarde will have more difficulty finding a job, as she only got her current job because the IMF needed a woman, after the Straus Kahn debacle.

so Mr nidieunimaitre...you declare the top managers of ECB incompetent, Eurogroup and IMF as incompetent...your suggestion about who you would recommend to replace them would be most welcome

[wabothai]

The kid never left the candy store !!

[fvw53]

The Greek Finance Minister, Yannis Varoufakis, just quit.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806716

Yes after Varoufakis described last week the ECB negotiaters he was dealing with as "terrorists" he could not expect from them a warm welcome at the negotiation table

[fareastguy]

Greece only entered into the EU so that they could benefit from the monetary bailouts that the country desperately needed at the time, while it tried to solve it's inept domestic policies.
However after a period of time, yet again it was unable to turn it's lazy dysfunctional country into a productive contributor, so more bail-outs were sought after.
Again the Greeks could only think of early retirement & with the minority paying taxes..

This time they want more help but with a history of non-payment on what they have already borrowed (and spent) it's time to say sorry the EU is no longer giving free hand-outs !!

You are free to go back to your own currency, your own government policies, no austerity measures & laid-back lifestyle... we wish you luck !!

[bangkoklasse]

Get rid of the parasite and bloodsucker nation.................they will never pay back all those billions of euro they already got.....

[nidieunimaitre]

Varoufakis has resigned over concerns that creditors no longer want him at the negotiating table.

Hopefully, as a gesture of good will, Draghi will resign too (surely he can go back to Goldman Sachs), and also Dijsselbloem (he can start a career as second hand car salesman or as time share expert, he has the perfect suit for it). Lagarde will have more difficulty finding a job, as she only got her current job because the IMF needed a woman, after the Straus Kahn debacle.

so Mr nidieunimaitre...you declare the top managers of ECB incompetent, Eurogroup and IMF as incompetent...your suggestion about who you would recommend to replace them would be most welcome

I agree with you that it is not easy to find competent sincere people at that level.

I can think of one though, he is Greek, not a Suit, and currently looking for a new job.

[expat_4_life]

Here's what everyone is afraid of, in some form or another. It's called "fractional reserve banking" and it's in play in all major markets.

This is a true story. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

You and I open a new bank. We have no deposits or loans or cash in the safe.

Joe comes in to open an account. He deposits $100. We now have $100 in liabilities because we owe him the money.

Pete comes in and wants to do the same thing. We now have $200 in liabilities - money owed to depositors.

Jane comes in and wants to borrow $100 and we loan her that much of Joe and Pete's deposits. That loan is our asset - money owed to us.

Jane wants her loan proceeds deposited to a new deposit account so we do that.

We now have $300 in total deposits made out of just the $200 that Joe and Pete gave us. We are magicians, creating new money. We have increased the total money supply available to all by 50% with a stroke of the pen. Everyone has $100 but we have just $200 in the vault - Joe and Pete's money.

If everyone wants his money out of the bank at the same time we are screwed. This is a good system in good or decent times and a nightmare when it's contracting.

Greece is contracting and no one in Europe knows what to do about it. They can't give Pete and Joe their money because they don't have it - they loaned it to Jane. Jane doesn't have it because she spent it.

The Euro has already crashed once, about 3 1/5 years ago, and only a loan (currency swap) by the US Federal Reserve of USD$2 trillion bailed them out. Another true story. Watch out below.... Wall Street Journal - The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe.

That's not a tinfoil hat site. That's the WSJ.

Cheers

Very true, and nothing new, as this system goes back hundreds of years. It started when banknotes were invented.

So the important question becomes: Can we think of an economic system that is not based on fractional reserve banking (also known as credit multiplication, or money creation by private banks).

Edit: unfortunately, the WSJ article is available for subscribers only.

FYI .... The WSJ paywall can be bypassed by searching with Google and opening the article from the results.

[stickylies]

This is what happens to a nation built on corruption...

The whole EU was built on corruption (inherent to perverse capitalism).

massive scandals in each and every state. Then, now and tomorrow.

Everybody knew what was going on in Greece decades ago but the European dream (utopia) was more important (read: profitable) for the policy makers...

[h90]

if they can manage their financial problems there is no reason to leave. And....THEY will decide (not the other Euro Zone members) because there are NO regulations for this case in the EU.

However, if there is no money coming from CB Frankfurt they have to be very creative.

For stability of the Euro Zone it might be better to find a better program for Greece to create more growth. Say Good Bye to austerity. It doesn't work for Greece.

"The problem with that line of argument is that there was no Greek austerity: Greece lied about its debts before the crisis, and it lied about its reforms after the bailout. It didn’t take the meat axe to its public sector: Greece went out and hired 70,000 new government employees instead. It stopped selling government assets, which it had agreed to do, and government’s share of GDP actually increased rather than declining."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420634/greece-puerto-rico-default?XyY20RcfdPhGylYU.01

Well "lied" everyone knew that the numbers are wrong, it wasn't a secret. And Greek should have sold government assets that make a healthy profit far under their value. It is obvious that this is wrong. Of course many things are very wrong in Greek, but all the real bad things were done from the previous governments....

[fvw53]

This is what happens to a nation built on corruption...

The whole EU was built on corruption (inherent to perverse capitalism).

massive scandals in each and every state. Then, now and tomorrow.

Everybody knew what was going on in Greece decades ago but the European dream (utopia) was more important (read: profitable) for the policy makers...

Yes utopia does not exist...except of course Marxist utopia in which nobody has any money to take from

[stickylies]

You are free to go back to your own currency, your own government policies, no austerity measures & laid-back lifestyle... we wish you luck !!

Sounds like thailand but closer to the homefront. Let's go!