The ironic (and sadistic) Greek tragedy plays out

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STOPPAGE TIME
The ironic (and sadistic) Greek tragedy plays out
Tulsathit Taptim
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Those who thought up the concept of democracy in Greece two millennia ago could not in their wildest dreams have imagined what is transpiring at the moment. But, then again, knowing about democracy doesn't necessarily mean you know everything.

The modern Greeks are learning the hard way how an "ideal" can disintegrate into thin air when something far less abstract - like money - takes control. Which is why we have been saddened (or entertained, depending on where you come from) by what's going on in Europe.

The Greek referendum on Sunday was democracy's last-ditch effort to stay relevant. Mind you, ballot boxes are the last thing money needs. You go to vote for "minor" things, like whether certain people you hardly know should serve in parliament or the presidency. When it comes to "major" things, like whether, when and how you should pay off your debt, the "majority" doesn't decide, the creditors do.

In other words, if a bank has 100 debtors, those debtors can't hold a vote to legitimise their collective default. They can't just say to the bank, "We live in a democratic world, so here's our joint decision not to pay you. Take it." The world doesn't work that way.

When the Greeks invented democracy, people were probably more idealised than monetized. Today it's the other way round. Throw in massive amounts of money and democracy can get a little confused. If an entire country votes to default, is that democracy? If a continent votes to override that country, is that democracy? If the rest of the world votes to veto the continent, is that democracy? If the world's vote should count as the ultimate democracy, why do we need the Security Council at the United Nations?

This last question, of course, doesn't involve money, not directly at least, but you get the idea. Democracy is what some people say it is, not what the majority thinks it is.

When push comes to shove, democracy in its most original sense fades. That's not its fault. The ideal is great, but those proclaiming to cherish it cannot just go all the way. When massive economic interests are at stake, who cares what the majority wants or thinks should be done?

Back to Greece, we can't say democracy has worked wonders. It's a "Greek tragedy" with strong democratic flavours.

Populist leaders have played a big role in taking the nation to the crisis point. Voters wielded their power and achieved immediate gains or respite, in the process overlooking their long-term, sustainable future. And there have been several "democratic" exercises in the European Union associated with the Greek woes.

Democracy's misery will be completed if Greece, the birthplace of democracy, has to turn to Russia. However, seeking support from democracy's arch-enemy should be Greece's strongest bargaining chip. The nation that invented democracy might have to hold its creation hostage, so to speak. "If you don't help me, democratic world, I will have to turn to the other side," Greece can say to the likes of Germany, France and the United States. "Of course I would be embarrassed, but I have nothing to lose."

So the referendum might not be democracy's last-ditch attempt to stay relevant after all. The real judgement day comes when the "free world" makes a final decision on whether Greece should be cut loose and engulfed by the not-so-free world.

The Greeks must be ready for anything by now. If someone offers them US$10 billion in exchange for the suspension of elections for, say, five years, they would likely bite his hand off in eagerness.

But Greece seeking assistance from undemocratic sources is not the worst-case scenario. The country could go up in flames and that would certainly be embarrassing to the democratic world.

Financially, the phrase "too big to fail" refers to big banks. Democratically, it might soon refer to Greece.

The problem is that, if money is used to rescue democracy, a different set of troubles will emerge. First, democracy will owe its survival to money - truly a bad situation. A precedent will have been set, and there are other big debtors itchy about default that are keenly watching developments. Spain is not in a good shape, and neither is Portugal. "Let's vote to default" is one thing that lovers of democracy and creditors alike don't want to see becoming a trend.

It's a long, bumpy road ahead. The Greeks have tried to apply their ancestors' invention to the current crisis, but it seems their ballot boxes wouldn't provide the final answer. A lot will depend on what those who lent them money have to say.

It's tragic. It's ironic. And it's probably sadistic, too.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/The-ironic-(and-sadistic)-Greek-tragedy-plays-out-30263971.html

-- The Nation 2015-07-08

[smedly]

The Greek referendum on Sunday was democracy's last-ditch effort to stay relevant. Mind you, ballot boxes are the last thing money needs. You go to vote for "minor" things, like whether certain people you hardly know should serve in parliament or the presidency. When it comes to "major" things, like whether, when and how you should pay off your debt, the "majority" doesn't decide, the creditors do.

In other words, if a bank has 100 debtors, those debtors can't hold a vote to legitimise their collective default. They can't just say to the bank, "We live in a democratic world, so here's our joint decision not to pay you. Take it." The world doesn't work that way.

Very well written especially the above two Paragraphs - maybe something the Greek PM should read

[canuckamuck]

The Greek referendum on Sunday was democracy's last-ditch effort to stay relevant. Mind you, ballot boxes are the last thing money needs. You go to vote for "minor" things, like whether certain people you hardly know should serve in parliament or the presidency. When it comes to "major" things, like whether, when and how you should pay off your debt, the "majority" doesn't decide, the creditors do.

Just one of the many examples in this article where the term democracy is used interchangeably with Greece. The author simple has a hate on for democracy, which his previous articles misexplaining the term have displayed.

Democracy will not become irrelevant because the Greeks failed to spend more then they earned. Democracy has become somewhat irrelevant because of the European Union however. At least the power of a single vote as been drastically reduced.

Edited July 7, 2015 by canuckamuck

[ggold]

The only irony is the idea of a Thai newspaper giving the Greeks a lesson on economics. Plainly has no idea of democracy either.

[sirineou]

who writes this crud?

[ABCer]

ggold, I wish I could give you 2 'likes'.

canuckamuck, Greeks invented Democracy, but not in Athens. I think it was Troy (?). And there it died - remember the horse? Rule by the mob (majority) is a stupid concept.

As for OP description of the Greek's problem - it concentrates on money only. Greeks voted to be rather HAPPY AND WRONG than RIGHT AND UNHAPPY.

Now we can see how this tragicomedy unfolds. Because what Greeks chose and what they will get definitely is not the same. Real life likes jokes.

The greatest danger for Greece now is not to fall Left or Right off the fence they are sitting on. But the position is awkward and time is running out.

[worgeordie]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

[smedly]

some of you guys have some really weird and quite frankly warped sense of reality, if the whole of Europe voted that Greece accept the terms being presented to them about loans that have been or may be provided then does that mean they have to accept them, there has to be some sensibility when asking for a public vote, you can't just dream something up then put it out there and call it demacracy, maybe they should have a vote to have rain on Monday or only allowed to take a dump on days beginning with T, or lets all vote to triple our state pension and triple our salaries - sure if it's a vote and it's labelled democracy then surely it will happen ....right ?

Like I said already - they can hold as many referendums as they like about anything they like but it changes nothing, they borrowed money and it needs to repaid - the creditors put forward the agreed terms and they broke them, you can't vote your way out of legal responsibility without consequence, they are going to find that out soon enough, although I do now think a deal will be done before the weekend and the so called democratic referendum will have meant nothing as they agree to most of the terms and conditions presented weeks ago

[PepperMe]

This report is stupid at best and way ill-informed.

For starters, the Greek referendum was NOT about whether to pay its debt or not. It was about whether to accept even more austerity from the creditors when the current level of austerity has not only brought Greece to its knees, but also threatens the entire breakdown of Greek society.

The EU is about the most undemocratic body imaginable. It is run by unelected and unaccountable beaurocrats and everythjing else is pure window dressing.

Juncker is now threatening to not only throw Greece out of the Euro, but also out of the EU. That is how bad these people are. Greece just wants a re-structuring of the debt and the terms of the repayments to take pressure off its people, the EU are refusing it and are secretly hoping Greece is destroyed so they can hold it up as an example to the rest of the EU as 'this is what happens when you don't do what we say'.....

Disgraceful and the sooner the entire EU project collapses, the better.

[smedly]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

it paid for the 150 euro a week state pension and welfare while those from countries that provided the loans get considerably less when indexed to prices, not to mention all those that are still getting benefits but have passed away years ago

[geriatrickid]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens. Here's where and how;

- national pensions and social benefit payments significantly greater than what the contributions justified

- Hospitals and health care delivery

- Infrastructure such as highways, and water lines

- Preservation and restoration of "national monuments"

- Payment of higher than justified salaries for the bloated Greek civil service and government.

- Subsidies to greek farmers

The large payments were required because Greeks don't pay their taxes. This is the biggest irritant to the EU countries Greek demands bail it out. The Greeks expect others to pay for the Greeks easy lives, without the Greeks contributing.

[sirineou]

some of you guys have some really weird and quite frankly warped sense of reality, if the whole of Europe voted that Greece accept the terms being presented to them about loans that have been or may be provided then does that mean they have to accept them, there has to be some sensibility when asking for a public vote, you can't just dream something up then put it out there and call it demacracy, maybe they should have a vote to have rain on Monday or only allowed to take a dump on days beginning with T, or lets all vote to triple our state pension and triple our salaries - sure if it's a vote and it's labelled democracy then surely it will happen ....right ?

Like I said already - they can hold as many referendums as they like about anything they like but it changes nothing, they borrowed money and it needs to repaid - the creditors put forward the agreed terms and they broke them, you can't vote your way out of legal responsibility without consequence, they are going to find that out soon enough, although I do now think a deal will be done before the weekend and the so called democratic referendum will have meant nothing as they agree to most of the terms and conditions presented weeks ago

what are you all talking about???? are you all demented???

A proposal was made, and a referendum was held to accept it or reject it. A national vote was held, and it was rejected by a majority of the participants. The epitome of Democracy. What do you mean it changes nothing? It changed everything. Some might say for the best, others might argue for worst. But unmistakably it changed everything.

[SOTIRIOS]

...throw some words around...and pretend you are really saying something....

...another protected profession in Thailand.....ironic....tragic...sadistic.....

[thedemon]

The Greeks must be ready for anything by now. If someone offers them US$10 billion in exchange for the suspension of elections for, say, five years, they would likely bite his hand off in eagerness.

US$10 Billion? Greeks wouldn't get out of bed for that.

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece

[PepperMe]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

Well Worgeordie (from a fellow Geordie)... What many people do not get to hear.. Is that a lot of that bailout money was encouraged onto Greece by the Germans.

Over 100 Bn of that bailout money was spent of defence, around 20 Bn a year for 5 years and who was the seller of all this weaponry that Greece really does not need?...... Germany.

It is also the old tactics of get as many countries into debt as possible and then you can control them as puppets. Been happening for years and the EU is a classic example. Which is why they have dictated their own version of twisted democracy, had prime ministers removed and puppets installed (Italy a prime example as is Greece also).

They have rejected referenda and ordered countries to re-hold them until the result pleases them (Ireland, Netherlands, Norway).

The EU is nothing more than a German Empire which they failed to get with 2 world wars and now have one without even firing a shot (read the Coudenhove Kalergi plan)... A German Empire with France as its poodle.

What the EU commissioners such as Juncker (Merkel's lapdog) does not realise, is that not only did their bullying and imposed bank crisis to deliberately scare the Greek people into voting to accept the troika's bitter demands... has in fact spectacularly back-fired, but his new hand thumping statement threatening to not only kick Greece out of the Eurozone, but also the EU is equally being watched by the people of those other bailout nations and will be seen as a direct attack on a sovereign nation and its civilians, and they will not stand for it.

We could be watching a slow motion car crash of the EU. Starting with the inevitable collapse of its currency.

Edited July 8, 2015 by PepperMe

[stevepompey]

Greece should never have joined the Euro,

Prior to this drastic move, Greece functioned. Its currency went up and down but it worked.

I spent many years there. They are lovely people and deserve better. They will never be rich and that is why the nation survived with the drachma/

Europe ruined Greece - Greece fell into a trap.

Europe (Euro) should bail them out then piss off. Go back to the drachma.

[PepperMe]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens. Here's where and how;

- national pensions and social benefit payments significantly greater than what the contributions justified

- Hospitals and health care delivery

- Infrastructure such as highways, and water lines

- Preservation and restoration of "national monuments"

- Payment of higher than justified salaries for the bloated Greek civil service and government.

- Subsidies to greek farmers

The large payments were required because Greeks don't pay their taxes. This is the biggest irritant to the EU countries Greek demands bail it out. The Greeks expect others to pay for the Greeks easy lives, without the Greeks contributing.

Sorry but most of that list is wrong and echoes the pro-EU mainstream media propaganda that has been shovelled to the EU people for months. If you listen to the neutral economists, the reasons are completely different with the main reason being that Greece is not suited to the Euro and will always have the problems it is having and this goes for all the smaller economies.

The Euro is valued to suit only the large dominant European economies such as Germany and France, the rest suffer. Which is why you are seeing 4 other countries in trouble who run their countries very differently to Greece, yet still are struggling and hurting.

[jacky54]

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Margaret Thatcher

[hawker9000]

This report is stupid at best and way ill-informed.

For starters, the Greek referendum was NOT about whether to pay its debt or not. It was about whether to accept even more austerity from the creditors when the current level of austerity has not only brought Greece to its knees, but also threatens the entire breakdown of Greek society.

The EU is about the most undemocratic body imaginable. It is run by unelected and unaccountable beaurocrats and everythjing else is pure window dressing.

Juncker is now threatening to not only throw Greece out of the Euro, but also out of the EU. That is how bad these people are. Greece just wants a re-structuring of the debt and the terms of the repayments to take pressure off its people, the EU are refusing it and are secretly hoping Greece is destroyed so they can hold it up as an example to the rest of the EU as 'this is what happens when you don't do what we say'.....

Disgraceful and the sooner the entire EU project collapses, the better.

" 'this is what happens when you don't do what we say'..... "

See, this is where your train goes off the rails. It's not a matter of do-what-WE-say; it's a matter of do-what-YOU-promised-and-agreed-to!

Greece can't put its house in order, doesn't want to, doesn't see any need to, and now by virtue of this referendum simply refuses to. They think they've "had enough". Well guess what. Those who've been funding the Greek gravy train are sick & tired of having to do it, and finally see what a blind man could see years ago. They've "had enough" as well. Furthermore, those running the show quite rightly realize that if this circus is allowed to continue, it's going to set an incredibly bad precedent for the other spendthrifts, who you can bet are watching these events very carefully.

The EU may very well be everything bad that you say it is. But that's neither here nor there. This is about borrowing money and the obligation to repay that goes with it. It's also about irresponsible public policy and leftist philosophies of government. The difficulty Greece finds itself in is completely self-inflicted. Democracy does not mean abandonment of responsibility. Greece accepted a responsibility to repay when it borrowed the money; the idea that it can vote away this responsibility is a perversion of what democracy really means. Greece, the so-called birthplace of democracy, should be deeply ashamed to be misusing the word now in a cheap attempt to justify its national irresponsibility and failed government. To this point, Greece has demonstrated and continues to demonstrate that it is simply incapable of self-rule.

[winstonc]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens. Here's where and how;

- national pensions and social benefit payments significantly greater than what the contributions justified

- Hospitals and health care delivery

- Infrastructure such as highways, and water lines

- Preservation and restoration of "national monuments"

- Payment of higher than justified salaries for the bloated Greek civil service and government.

- Subsidies to greek farmers

The large payments were required because Greeks don't pay their taxes. This is the biggest irritant to the EU countries Greek demands bail it out. The Greeks expect others to pay for the Greeks easy lives, without the Greeks contributing.

wrong it went on repaying previous loans..the spiral has not stopped try looking at the bankers you may learn something nasty..to you palate..

[SoilSpoil]

Greece should never have joined the Euro,

Prior to this drastic move, Greece functioned. Its currency went up and down but it worked.

I spent many years there. They are lovely people and deserve better. They will never be rich and that is why the nation survived with the drachma/

Europe ruined Greece - Greece fell into a trap.

Europe (Euro) should bail them out then piss off. Go back to the drachma.

I agree.Third and last bail out, partial debt clearance and then 2 conditions: 1. Stay in Nato and 2. Grexit and don't ever come back.

[micmichd]

Greece should never have joined the Euro,

Prior to this drastic move, Greece functioned. Its currency went up and down but it worked.

I spent many years there. They are lovely people and deserve better. They will never be rich and that is why the nation survived with the drachma/

Europe ruined Greece - Greece fell into a trap.

Europe (Euro) should bail them out then piss off. Go back to the drachma.

I agree.Third and last bail out, partial debt clearance and then 2 conditions: 1. Stay in Nato and 2. Grexit and don't ever come back.

Why stay in NATO?

[smedly]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens. Here's where and how;

- national pensions and social benefit payments significantly greater than what the contributions justified

- Hospitals and health care delivery

- Infrastructure such as highways, and water lines

- Preservation and restoration of "national monuments"

- Payment of higher than justified salaries for the bloated Greek civil service and government.

- Subsidies to greek farmers

The large payments were required because Greeks don't pay their taxes. This is the biggest irritant to the EU countries Greek demands bail it out. The Greeks expect others to pay for the Greeks easy lives, without the Greeks contributing.

wrong it went on repaying previous loans..the spiral has not stopped try looking at the bankers you may learn something nasty..to you palate..

although that is true they need to at least make an effort to improve their expenditure and not just ignore the fact that their whole country is fiscally defunct and reliant on other peoples money. Personally I think the single currency was a flawed concept that could never have worked with an economically diverse set of countries all trying to play with the same fiscal rules but having economies that don't fit the standard expected profile, too many square pegs trying to fit in nice German French Spanish Italian Industrial round holes

[fvw53]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

That is indeed the right question Mr Worgeordie !

The Greeks leaders behave like the many Arab governments ...they are corrupt and wait until God drops more money from the sky so they can waste more.

But what would you expect from a Greek government which is in the hands of Marxists who do not understand that the creditors are sitting on top money from tax payers ...The new Greek leaders behave as if the creditors are private banks - listed on stock markets - managed by greedy executives....However the European Central Bank is funded by the national Central Banks of EU member states (some of them poorer than Greece) and those national Central Banks are funded by tax payers...who also can vote if their government wastes their money.

[Boatfreak]

Greece did not fail on its own. It was made to fail.

The banks wrecked the Greek government and deliberately pushed it into unsustainable debt so that oligarchs and international corporations can profit from the ensuing chaos and misery.

from http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media

[TheAppletons]

Greece did not fail on its own. It was made to fail.

The banks wrecked the Greek government and deliberately pushed it into unsustainable debt so that oligarchs and international corporations can profit from the ensuing chaos and misery.

from http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media

You may as well quote The National Enquirer or Hustler, if you're going to lend any credence to that website.

Here are the other headlines of the day from that website:

"Shocking documents reveal fracking health complaints swept under the rug in Pennsylvania"

"Death Toll Climbs As Weather Experts Link Pakistan Heatwave to Climate Change"

"Monsanto Invests Billions in New Carcinogenic Herbicide to Replace Roundup"

What next, "Invasion of the Unicorn Riding Leprechauns?

Edited July 8, 2015 by TheAppletons

[smedly]

Greece did not fail on its own. It was made to fail.

The banks wrecked the Greek government and deliberately pushed it into unsustainable debt so that oligarchs and international corporations can profit from the ensuing chaos and misery.

from http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media

yes and if you have a big enough telescope you can see the lander on the moon with the American flag still not flapping

one of the skills in this age of media saturation is having the ability to see the BS, a skill that comes natural to most and challenging for a few.................keep the feet for dancing

[geriatrickid]

I just wonder where all the money went,especially before they give them anymore loans.

regards Worgeordie

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens. Here's where and how;

- national pensions and social benefit payments significantly greater than what the contributions justified

- Hospitals and health care delivery

- Infrastructure such as highways, and water lines

- Preservation and restoration of "national monuments"

- Payment of higher than justified salaries for the bloated Greek civil service and government.

- Subsidies to greek farmers

The large payments were required because Greeks don't pay their taxes. This is the biggest irritant to the EU countries Greek demands bail it out. The Greeks expect others to pay for the Greeks easy lives, without the Greeks contributing.

Sorry but most of that list is wrong and echoes the pro-EU mainstream media propaganda that has been shovelled to the EU people for months. If you listen to the neutral economists, the reasons are completely different with the main reason being that Greece is not suited to the Euro and will always have the problems it is having and this goes for all the smaller economies.

The Euro is valued to suit only the large dominant European economies such as Germany and France, the rest suffer. Which is why you are seeing 4 other countries in trouble who run their countries very differently to Greece, yet still are struggling and hurting.

It is a cop out to blame Germany. No argument from me that the EU has faults and deficiencies, but Greece is one of those backward corrupt countries which benefited from the EU. It certainly liked the aid, the subsidies, the free movement of goods and workers and the easy access to money. The UK had similar problems but it shouldered its responsibilities and cleaned up its act. The UK took its medicine and is better for it. The Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark too. There is a reason why those countries are moving forward.

Your claim about German debt is nonsense. Of the 360 billion debt, Greece owes Spain 25 billion Euro ,Italy 37 billion Euro, France 42 billion Euro. it owes Germany 56 billion Euro, the Eurobank 20billion Euro and other Eurozone countries 34 billion Euro. In plain language, Greece wants to stiff everyone else in the EU. More than 1/2 is owed to other EU countries. If Greece doesn't pay, every taxpayer in those countries will suffer all to support the lazy slobs of Greece.

I would have sympathy if the Greeks actually paid their income taxes and instead of expecting the world to subsidize their lives took care of themselves. Compounding the issue is the inherent racist behaviour of Greeks. Oh how they loathe the African refugees. They have some choice names for them, calling them lazy and corrupt etc. Know what? It's the Greeks who are corrupt and lazy, not the Africans.

[micmichd]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=4&referrer

Why did the country that started two world wars get a 50 pct haircut and Greece did not?

[Johpa]

In other words, if a bank has 100 debtors, those debtors can't hold a vote to legitimise their collective default. They can't just say to the bank, "We live in a democratic world, so here's our joint decision not to pay you. Take it." The world doesn't work that way.[/i]

Actually that is the way the world works to some extent. The banks always accept some risk of non-payment of a loan and base their interest rates based upon those risks. It is only in recent times that bankers seem to believe that they have some legal right to total repayment of all loans regardless of circumstances.

It went in large part directly to the greek citizens.

No, the majority of the money loaned to the Greeks was, and is. used to pay back even older debt to the German bankers. This is all about German bankers who screwed up and want the Greek people to pay for their, the German banker's, errors in judgement.