Farming In Northeast Thailand

[bannork]

plachon,

Thank you for your diagnosis, the missus confirmed it as mai arab; at the moment it's affecting the fields near the road, perhaps as you say trucks have helped spread it. After several attempts to dig up the roots, only to see it reappear, I've decided to plough the fields affected next May.

It seems to particularly thrive on thin or rocky soil, the lack of competition there may help; but it's definitely a menace.

Yours, bannork.

[lingling]

Ok, not an isaan farming question but since the farming discussino is here I guess this is the place to ask. What is a normal return on raising cows? My father in law claims that a BT20k calf will double in value over a 3 month period. Is that a over-hopeful estimate or is the return really that good on cows?

[RamdomChances]

What sort of cow is it, beef or dairy?

I think that it seems a bit optamistic to me, just work the maths out, if there were those sort of returns every one would be doing it.

I will say though, Long ear'd beef cows do fech very good money, still have'nt worked out why and sometimes if its an exeptional bull, that can be sold for breeding.

The only other way I can think of where you may make that sort of money in 3 months is if its a dairy calf that has just been inseminated, you have to wait 3 months to be sure its pregnant, then its value nearly doubles, prob from 15k to 30k+. Non pregnant(barren) dairy cattle go for a bit less than beef.

We sell grass to a fairly large beef farm, he does'nt raise beef though, but buys mature cattle and just "finnishes" them for a few months (good feed and fattens them up) he reconed he makes about 3-4000 a head.

[lingling]

What sort of cow is it, beef or dairy?

I think that it seems a bit optamistic to me, just work the maths out, if there were those sort of returns every one would be doing it.

I will say though, Long ear'd beef cows do fech very good money, still have'nt worked out why and sometimes if its an exeptional bull, that can be sold for breeding.

The only other way I can think of where you may make that sort of money in 3 months is if its a dairy calf that has just been inseminated, you have to wait 3 months to be sure its pregnant, then its value nearly doubles, prob from 15k to 30k+. Non pregnant(barren) dairy cattle go for a bit less than beef.

We sell grass to a fairly large beef farm, he does'nt raise beef though, but buys mature cattle and just "finnishes" them for a few months (good feed and fattens them up) he reconed he makes about 3-4000 a head.

Beef cows. He got two for B40k (total) a few months ago. One light-brown and one black, both have longer (and wider) ears than european cows. Now he says they would sell for 70-80k, but he won't sell them - intends to keep them to generate calves and then raise and sell the calves.

What's a normal average price for a healthy calf vs full grown beef cow of that kind?

Also, he said that if they get 'red' calves they fetch a lot more. What's up with that?

Another thing I haven't figured out yet - why don't people just fence in a field and let the cows out? Back home that's the way it is done, with a shed in a corner of the field for them to seek shelter from weather and wind. Is it heat, risk of catching diseases, being stolen or snake-bitten or some other reason behind them being kept in sheds all the time? Seems a bit inefficient to keep them inside and cutting grass but I guess there must be some good reason...?

[RamdomChances]

They sound like "Wua hoo yaow" long ear'd cow they are usually not as pale as the normal cows, more a sort of light brown/reddish coulor, he mush of picked them you cheap to make that sort of return in 3 months. Which can happen sometimes people need cash in a hurry and sell cheap. I would'nt expect this sort of return usually though.

As I said I dont really know why they are so expensive, my only guess is for breeding stock, because i've never seen the beef on sale ( it would have to sell at a premium) . I've been told, but don't know wether its true that when you inseminate them its about 3000 bht a throw, which would indicate imported sperm ( possibly pure brhaman??). I'll try and find out a bit more and let you know.

Another thing I haven't figured out yet - why don't people just fence in a field and let the cows out? Back home that's the way it is done, with a shed in a corner of the field for them to seek shelter from weather and wind. Is it heat, risk of catching diseases, being stolen or snake-bitten or some other reason behind them being kept in sheds all the time? Seems a bit inefficient to keep them inside and cutting grass but I guess there must be some good reason...?

Theres lots of reasons, and not everyone does it that way. It may be lack of land or the land is being used to grow crops. You cant get grazing pasture all year round here so devoting land for grazing is pretty inificient, better to grow crops and feed the cows the by products. Personally i dont like the idea of just keeping in the shed as I feel they dont get enough exersise and incresed risk of deasie.

Cheers RC

[sbk]

Ok, for any of you interested in my avocadoes: Here they are on the tree in June, we harvested in August.

Hope this one works! Otherwise you can view the beginnings of my gardening photo album at:

My garden

[lingling]

Theres lots of reasons, and not everyone does it that way. It may be lack of land or the land is being used to grow crops. You cant get grazing pasture all year round here so devoting land for grazing is pretty inificient, better to grow crops and feed the cows the by products. Personally i dont like the idea of just keeping in the shed as I feel they dont get enough exersise and incresed risk of deasie.

In our case we have the land for a pasture and the facility to keep it green year-round (we have a 1+ rai 5m deep pond that we pump water from so we can water the grass when it is not raining). If there is nothing negative with having them walk the pasture we'll probably fence in a couple of rai so they can roam around freely during daytime.

Btw, back home the grass contains more nutrients and stuff in spring time and if they eat too much they can get sick. Any risk this happens in TH?

How about water..? Are these animals smart enough to not go and drown themselves or will they pretend to be water buffaloes if they get a chance? If not we'll probably fence in a way that includes the pond and part of the fruit orchard.

[RamdomChances]

Hi ling I'll try to answer you tomorrow, have a look, p1ssed now.

Cheers RC

[sbk]

Just to let all you farming/gardening people know, there is a big forum for gardeners, not just US based either:

GardenWeb Forums

You may find alot of help there with your gardening questions. At least until we pressure George into starting a "Country Life" forum

[dugdig]

Asd for maize, yes it grows well here, we currently have about 55 rai if it growing, but its for sale not feed. We also use "electric fence" well its wire really conected to a regulator box. It can give uo quite a kick especially if you try to cock your leg over it and your #### brush against it, but thats an other story

Greetings,

This is my first post....ever.....anywhere! I live in Chiangrai so I guess I'm off my own turf here but I am learning about farming here so I screwed up my courage and joined this forum thing or whatever you call it. The quote I included (if everything worked out right and it is infact here) is about an electric fence. The wife just bought 7 rai of rice land (since I'm falang and can't buy it myself) and I want to fence cows in and out of all or part of it. I thought that electric fence would be the cheapest and most flexible option. When I go to the electric store in town and ask about ruah fi fa (electric fence) they laugh and say I'll kill the cows...seems like they're clueless. I'd love to know where you got your charger and what it cost and what kind is it etc. I'm pretty handy with electricity and I've checked out the internet and found some good info on electric fences and I think I understaned all of it so now I just need to find where I can buy a charger, the steel wire, and the insulators. All comments are appreciated.

[Pseacraft]

Wow this thread is chocked full of great information. Thanks to all who have contributed. I had to copy it off as a word document so that I could read everything and check out the links. It will probably take me an addition lifetime to absorb that.

My brain is just spinning away at what I can/should do with our rice fields. Lots of new ideas to ponder. Except for the dog farming...

Eric

[Rinrada]

Question?

Great thread on subject that I am not too "into" as yet but things may change.

Now that we have got some land in/outside C.M.wife wants to try out growing potatoes.

Since she has been here in London she has become fascinated with chips ...not french frys but proper chunky good old wedges "anglais" avec pla.

Last week she took out a suitcase of about 6-7 different varietys of said "spuds"ie King Edwards,kerr pinks,french blues or whatever and she intends to plant them on a trial hit and miss base up on "our mountainside"and see which ones grow the quickest and produce the best results.

Its all seems a bit amatureish to me but we gotta start somewhere.

Anyway my question (prob.obvious) is What spuds grow best etc in Chiang Mai?

She also wants to import cows from the UK (brown and white ones with nice smiliing faces) since she dosnt like the ones already in LOS but that is for later.

[sbk]

I don't know about which different kinds of potatoes will grow up there but I do know they don't like it super hot and they don't like it super wet, they will rot if there is too much rain. Also, is your wife planting sections of potatoes? You need to cut off a good size section around each eye and let it air dry for a day or so before planting. Good luck! It would be great to get different kinds of potatoes here, I really love the thin skinned small red potatoes.

[dugdig]

Anyway my question (prob.obvious) is What spuds grow best etc in Chiang Mai?

You might try buying some potatoes at the market and using them as seed. They might be treated so they won't sprout so its no guaranatee but its worth a try.

[Rinrada]

Thanks for the advice.I am heading up/over there for the weekend so will have a go with as many diff. types as we can carry.

She has also taken a load of flower seeds with her and recons she can come up with "Chiang Mai Roses"or something but will see.

On my last very brief visit about 6 months ago I noticed that we have lots of Banana and Pineapple bushes/trees (well I dont know-think tins and supermarkets)so there should always be something sweet to squeeze into our C.M vodca.

Time for a spot of tiffin

[RamdomChances]

In our case we have the land for a pasture and the facility to keep it green year-round (we have a 1+ rai 5m deep pond that we pump water from so we can water the grass when it is not raining). If there is nothing negative with having them walk the pasture we'll probably fence in a couple of rai so they can roam around freely during daytime.

Btw, back home the grass contains more nutrients and stuff in spring time and if they eat too much they can get sick. Any risk this happens in TH?

How about water..? Are these animals smart enough to not go and drown themselves or will they pretend to be water buffaloes if they get a chance? If not we'll probably fence in a way that includes the pond and part of the fruit orchard.

Hi mate sorry I did'nt get back to you (Susspended,holiday,computer probs).

Anyway there is nothing wrong with letting them roam and eat grass, the things you have to think about are how much land you are useing, could you grow stuff on that land fro sale and give the leftovers for the cow to eat (peanuts are very good for this if you have lots of water). The beef cows are much more hardy than the dairy ones, so there is no prob about them not eating enough as long as there is avalible good forage for them( dairy cows wont walk around in the day and eat cos its too hot).

The bit about the spring grass I think I know what you are tasking about, but I thought it was mostly milkers that have the problem, and I've never seen one go "water buffalo" yet.

Bear in mind if you want them to grow quickly you will need to suplament the food, just grass is ok, but it takes a long time. There is a grass here called Yaa Jumbo (grows about 6 ft tall) thats really good about 8% protien but it needs to be cut and shredded for the best results, with plenty of water you could cut it about every 45 days and labour is cheap here. You can also get an attatchment for the back of a tractor that cuts, chops (called a "chop") and shots the grass into a trailer for aboput 50,000 bht.

Obviously if you are just doing it as a bit of a hobby jus let them roam around until you want the money for something, beef cows are really pretty simple to look after here.

When I go to the electric store in town and ask about ruah fi fa (electric fence) they laugh and say I'll kill the cows...seems like they're clueless. I'd love to know where you got your charger and what it cost and what kind is it etc. I'm pretty handy with electricity and I've checked out the internet and found some good info on electric fences and I think I understaned all of it so now I just need to find where I can buy a charger, the steel wire, and the insulators. All comments are appreciated

Hi mate try asking for luad fai (electric wire) its not a fence as such just a thin wire and perfactly safe (we even use it with calfs and my puppys have had the occasional jolt). Its just a small control box that sends a pulse out. All you do is hammer in some bambo, or simular wooden stakes and just wrap the wire around, tie some plastic bags on the wire to make it more visible and conect the ends to the control box (about 1000bht). We have steel/bamboo fencing around as well,but mainly for security and the fact that if the cow does'nt see the wire they will get a jolt but are just as likly to run through it, we used to have sugar cane all around and trying to find you cows in 8ft high shugar cane in the dark is'nt fun.

On the Potato front, I'm not really much of a gardner (I was'nt a farmer either), but I'm plannig on giving them a go this year, cold season is supposed to be the best so next month should do it depending on where you are. I'm just using bought potato's that have gone to seed and have shoots, and I'm going to grow them in big concrete tubs, with "salem" (the black or green neting you see used for shade). I think you with have t water them a lot as well cos there is'nt much rain in the cold season.

She also wants to import cows from the UK (brown and white ones with nice smiliing faces)  since she dosnt like the ones already in LOS  but that is for later.

You can buy them here I've got some, and loads of black and white ones, I'll do you a good deal, honest

[Pseacraft]

Posted by: stoneman Sun 2004-09-19, 16:27:12

... The new 13 rai of rice will be harvested and then I plan to bring in many loads of topsoil and fill in the paddies. I will then have it plowed and contoured for water runoff and then plant sugar cane....

Stoneman...where are you getting your topsoil? I'll be looking for some decent fill for my rice paddies. Any idea on what your cost is going to be? I'd love to find a source, locally, for a few hundred ton of cow manure to compost into my paddies but I think I'm dreaming there fro that kind of volume. Most of the "topsoil" I've seen in our area, about 12k South and 6K East of NK has either been straight clay or a clay and gravel mix that looks to contain alot of natural Iron. The latter is best for foundation fill and road building.

Eric

[dugdig]

RandomChances, Thanks for the terminology update for 'electric fence.' I haven't had time to go shopping for luad fi yet but will soon. I've been looking at tractors. There's a Ford (or New Holland) model 6610 that seems to be really popular up here in Chiang Rai but I think its too big for me and would stretch my budget a bit. Kubota makes a 4-wheel drive tractor with 27 horsepower for 320,000 baht new. There's a 6610 used for the same money here locally with a sort of beat up three point disc but the tires are almost gone and I don't really trust my judgement on its overall condition and it looks well worn. I'll probably use my tractor to grow about six rai of rice every year and then enough grass, soybeans, corn and whatever else I need to feed 4 to 6 cows. I'll be experimenting alot because I've got good gardening experience but no farming experience and no cow experience. I'm thinking that these two tractors bracket what I want; one is probably bigger than I need and the other is probably about as small as I would want to go. What do you think?

[dugdig]

Stoneman...where are you getting your topsoil?  I'll be looking for some decent fill for my rice paddies.  Any idea on what your cost is going to be?  I'd love to find a source, locally, for a few hundred ton of cow manure to compost into my paddies but I think I'm dreaming there fro that kind of volume.  Most of the "topsoil" I've seen in our area, about 12k South and 6K East of NK has either been straight clay or a clay and gravel mix that looks to contain alot of natural Iron.  The latter is best for foundation fill and road building.

Eric

Eric, Do you know about legumes...especially soybeand AKA yellow bean? Do you know about green manure cropping? Most farmers in the world can not get large enough quantities of manure to instantly create thick topsoil but smaller more accessable amounts can be applied in connection with growing the right crops to build excellent topsoil in a few years. I've been wondering about this tropical soil and how it works. They say that it is leached soil which means that there is enough rain to wash out alot of the nutrients. I'd like to learn more about this but if my ideas are correct (and I'm not sure about this at all) then applying a large amount of manure all at once would result in most of the nutrient washing away in the first rainy season. Obviously it would help alot but I'm wondering if the same amount applied over a longer time frame would result in better soil improvement. I don't really know about this and I really would like to find out more about the soil here. If you or anyone can fill me in or tell me about books or internet resources on this topic it would be much appreciated. I'm going to get 4 to 6 cows with a major reason being soil improvement!

Dug

P.S. I could send you a private message with a longer discourse on the ideas I've developed on this topic but it would probably be too wordy for the forum and not of general interest and it would only be my suspicions and not firmly grounded in fact.

Dug

[sendbaht]

Wash that is truly a wonderful story!!!!!!!! Thanks.

[RamdomChances]

Digdig

I've got a Kubuta 2402 with a bucket on the front (there is a pic if you want to see on page 11 of the "members photo albums"), we use it every day on the farm(dairy) but sub the work on the land out (350 bht/hr). With 6 rai I'd seriously ask your self if you need to buy a tractor and what use you will get out of it.

The Kubuta's are fine, I'd check if it is actually new as there are a lot of companies importing second hand ones to thailand and reconditioning them. I bought a recon one for 155,000 bht with the bucket but not 4wd, with hindsight the 4wd would of been better.

The big ford are great and you can do every thing with them and also have the option of doing work for other people (if you have a driver), a spade on the front is very usfull as well for clearing/leveling land.

My kubuta used to pull the "chop" (cutting/dicing/collecting type thing) no prob but its about as small as you can go to do this, If you do buy a small tractor i'd go for the most powerful one you can with 4wd it will be plenty for you needs. I've seen tractors with the big "paddle whells" used on rice farms and ideas? (I dont do rice myself).

P.S. I could send you a private message with a longer discourse on the ideas I've developed on this topic but it would probably be too wordy for the forum and not of general interest and it would only be my suspicions and not firmly grounded in fact.

Hey stick it on here I'm interested, i've developed a fair knowlage on the livestock side but I'm pretty poor on the acutal growing side of things.

I've not seen "top soil" for sale but we've bought laods of earth for fill/ road making ect. The red stoney earth is great for roads ect and about 600-1000 bht a lorry load (10 wheeler) we got a load of 'fill" earth very clay'y for 200 bht a load.

Pitty you guys are'nt closed i could let you have loads of manure, ask around any big chicken/pig/cow farms in the area.

Cheers RC

[dugdig]

Digdig

I've got a Kubuta 2402 with a bucket on the front (there is a pic if you want to see on page 11 of the "members photo albums"), we use it every day on the farm(dairy) but sub the work on the land out (350 bht/hr). With 6 rai I'd seriously ask your self if you need to buy a tractor and what use you will get out of it.

P.S. I could send you a private message with a longer discourse on the ideas I've developed on this topic but it would probably be too wordy for the forum and not of general interest and it would only be my suspicions and not firmly grounded in fact.

Hey stick it on here I'm interested, i've developed a fair knowlage on the livestock side but I'm pretty poor on the acutal growing side of things.

Cheers RC

RC,

Thanks for the tractor info. One of the tractors I looked at already was being reassembled with a 'new motor' and I expect it was a recon imported from Japan because when I asked what the price would be if they could get a new one just like it they said that now they could only get ones made in Thailand which are slightly different and that this one was made in Japan. I'm going to look around for a while before I buy.

You asked for some of my ideas on soils so here goes:

There's about 3 different views on what soil is.

1. Soil is dead and it contains some chemicals which plants need to grow and if I put more chemicals into the soil in ther right amounts then plants will grow better.

2. Soil itself is a living organism and should be treated with the respect that all life forms deserve.

3. Soil is an aggregate of dead minerals with a vast array of plants and animals living in it.

I follow #3 in my farming practices. "Modern" agro-business farmers usually follow #1. Many extreme environmentalists and spiritualists follow #2.

Farmers who think of soil as being dead usually use chemical fertilizers and these fertilizers when used in large quantity (along with pesticides which are often applied in concert) tend to kill alot of the living things in the soil. After you farm this way for awhile your soil is mostly dead so this is a self fulfilling prophesy. If you farm this way and tdhen try to switch to 'natural' methods it will take awhile for the living things to re-establish in your soil and reach a balanced co-existence.

Farmers who farm naturally and understand about the living things in the soil are constantly putting decaying matter into the soil. This tends to create alot of food for the soil inhabitants and also increases the number of habaitats in the soil. Some of the soil creatures need to grow on the surface of decaying vegetation and some need to be in a rich soup of shit particles. Some need air and some can not tolerate it. Dead chemically treated soil that is plowed every year becomes very homogeneous and does not provide a variey of environments for different creatures.

But why (you may ask) are all these soil creatures desireable? Many of them (you may say) eat my crops which is why I use pesticides in the first place.

These creatures are desireable because their bodies and shit are what holds the nutrients in a natural soil (especially tropical soil which is heavily leached). In a healthy natural soil every critter get eaten by another one and everyone's shit is another ones feast. When soil nutrients are tied up in the bodies of living things then the nutrients don't wash away with the rains. The nutrients in their bodies are not available for your plants either but the nutrients in their shit is available to your plants and so are the nutrients in their bodies when they die. So these living creatures act as time release fertilizer! Applying manure on the soil before cropping is a bit like using a chemical lfertilizer because there is alot of nutrient which is not tied up in a lving organism and is immediately available for your crops which is why it woks so well but remember that these same nutrients which are available for your crops can also be leached with heavy rains or irrigating. Using large amounts of manure is not 'natural' because it creates a very high amount of available nutrients which you won't find in 'nature'. Personally I love usings manure and one of my main reasons for wanting to raise cows is to assure a convenient manure supply!!

Enough for now 'cause I've got to go out and repair the chicken fence in the garden. The rice is heading up now (making grain stalks) so it looks like mother nature will feed me for another year!

Dugdig

[RamdomChances]

Cheers mate I'm probably a 3, the only problem is I dont really know how to be !! Its something I've really got to look into for next year as we want to grow food for the cows as well.

The question is how do I do that with 54 rai, I could see it with up to about 10 but 54's a big field. I sold a lorry load of manure today only a 6 wheeler 2000 bht buger all but they collected and loaded it so better than nothing.

Cheers RC

[dugdig]

Greetings RC,

Was that load of manure about 2 cubic metres for 2000 baht? People here have offered to sell me cow manure for 10 baht for one bag and I usually don't buy manure so I'm using you as a reality check on the local price.

For me the difference between gardening and farming is the size of the land. Even though my 10 rai is small enough to be treated as a very big garden I intend to treat it as a farm. That means that I'm not going to try to manure all of it. I'll just manure the vegetable garden and maybe some of the fruit trees. For the rest of the land I'll try to treat it as farm. I'm doing this because I want to learn about farming since I already have a good start on gardening. Anyway...what I've heard is that tropical soils are usually low in nitrogen and sometimes low in phosphorous. Chemical fertilizer bags have three numbers on them. The first one stands for the percent of nitrogen and the second stands for the amount of phosphorous. The third is for potassium. Nitrogen is abundant in the air but in a form the plants can not use but there are bacteria which live in the soil which can take the nitrogen out of the air and "fix it". "Fix it" means the chemically combine it with other things so that it is in the form that plants can use. Some plants have very small nodules which naturally grow on their roots and these nodules provide a perfect place for these bacteria to live and grow. Legumes all have these nodules. In some places I think that legumes are called pulses. I'm not sure about this. Some legumes are soy beans (also called yellow beans), peas, lentils, green beans, lima beans,,,,(every kind of bean I think), mimosa, acacia, and alot of the weeds here in Thailand are legumes. All of these grow nodules on their roots where the nitrogen fixing bacteria live. Here in CHiangrai there is a weed called nahm pui which means 'fertilizer thorn'. It is a low growing creaping vine with vicious thorns and if you touch the leaves they go limp and play dead. If you touch them this happens immediately and is fun to watch. If you have these then dig one up and look at the roots and you will see the tiny little nodules....at least I've always seen them here. Another weed that is a legume is called ya pui which means 'fertilizer plant'. It is a thorny vine with very small thorns and it grows on very long vines which can engulf small trees. If you've got that one you can look at the roots on it too...or if you see some soybeans (yellow beans....they make tofu from this bean) growing you can look at their root too. I'm tired of typing so the bottom line for today is if you have enough water I'd plant soybeans. You can sell the beans or make nam tofu and sell it or make tofu and sell it or use it as a very high quality feed supplement or make hay out of the plants before it makes seed or let the cows graze on it. It will produce a crop and improve the soil...hard to beat that! You need to find out what variety of soybean you want to grow because they are sensitive to day length and different kinds are better for different times of the year. One of my short term goals is to find out more about soybeans here. I've only had my land since January so I'm just getting started and I can already see that gardening/farming is alot different here than in Washington state.

dugdig

[sbk]

Actually dugdig, nitrogen fixing plants only improve the soil if you then till them back into the soil to decompose. The nitrogen is then released into the soil. A possible suggestion would be to grow a nitrogen fixing tree (look for non-weedy non invasive species) such as Sesbania which is not only ornamental but produces edible flowers and then cut back the branches and leaves and till them back into the soil to return the nitrogen.

Nitrogen fixing cash crops such as soy beans and peanuts would need to have the foliage tilled back into the soil to produce any benefit. Still, it is a good idea and well worth the effort as the heavy rains leach nutrients out of the soil. Tropical soils are also often lacking in trace minerals, we bought organic trace mineral fertilizer in the US and brought it back for our Avo trees. (Beware the agriculture dept as they require permits for agricultural products!)

[dugdig]

sbk,

Thanx for the input. I always thought that you would get a boost from planting soybeans so I went out on the web to see what I could find really quickly because my wife is calling me for dinner....here's what I found:

http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~vista/html_pubs/econ/page8.html

I don't understand all of it but they imply that soybeans neither add to nor take away nitrogen if they are cropped to maturity and then sold off farm. I assume that the trash is tilled back into the soil (I might be wrong with this) so all the nitrogen fixed by the soybean leaves the farm with the bean. For a dairy operation if the soybeans were fed to the cows and their manure returned to the soil then a large percentage of the nitrogen fixed by the soybeans would be returned to the soil making it an overall nitrogen accumulater....I think. Is this in agreement with your understanding of how this works. Let me know and let me know if you have an internet resource more applicable to tropical soils as the site above is for a temperate zone farm. Maybe after dinner I'll do somemore looking.

RC (and anyone else), The bacteria in the soil which fixes the nitrogen is not found in all soils everywhere. In the USA you can buy 'innoculant' which is powdered dried nitrogen fixing bacteria which you mix with the seed before planting. I believe that if legumes in your area have nodules already then this means that you have the bacteria already and you don't need to buy the innoculant. I want to emphasize that I'm not sure on this....I have been told that if there is no bacteria then there will be no nodules but I don't remember the source of this information. Sbk, do you know about this? At any rate if you do use innoculant once then it lasts forever...or so I've been told and I guess its pretty cheap but I've never bought/used any. Since legumes seem to be abundant in the weed population here in Thailand its probably a good bet that the soil has it already..I guess.

Dugdig

[RamdomChances]

Dugdig

Just a quick one 10 bht a bag for manure sound about right, thats what we sell ours for, which is really cheap when you consider I can sell the old food bags for 1.65 bht, and give the staff an extra 2 bht a bag for bagging it (generous I am).

It was prob more than 2 cubic meters but they collected it and did'nt use the bags straight into the lorry.

[sbk]

Dugdig, I don't know about soybeans but my impression was that the entire plant absorbed the nitrogen. I got my info out of Organic Gardening Magazine, I will search my back issues tomorrow and let you know more. I don't think nitrogen fixing plants are any different from temperate zones to tropical, just that tropical soils tend to be nutrient poorer than temperate.

As for nodules, from what I remember (its been awhile since I read the issue) the nodules indicate the presence of the correct bacteria and you do not need innoculant but something tells me they recommended re-innoculating every few years or so. No nodules, no bacteria and innoculant is necessary. There are many different nitrogen fixing plants and theoretically you could grow a nitrogen fixing tree, whack it back and then till its leaves back into the soil to return the nitrogen.

You might check out Australia's agricultural websites, they have alot of similar climates to here and would probably have more relevant info for what you need.

[Pseacraft]

Dug, I’m with you. Having grown up on farm land that wasn’t clay, I also have to do research on how to best improve the soil conditions. I haven’t studied or done much of anything agriculturally related since leaving Ag School over 20 years ago, the one thing I couldn’t do in the Navy. I didn’t elude to what I was going to do with my few hundred ton of cow manure (if I could find a reliable source). I’d also like to get about ten times that volume in rice straw to compost it with and slowly till it in to not only beef up the soil but to also break down the clay a little bit.

Leaching, to me, is when the nutrients filter or percolate out of the soil (like in sandy soils). With clay the problem is more like erosion in that the nutrient materials tend to wash or run off with the rain as clay doesn’t absorb water very well (great for rice) and causes greater runoff – aka flash floods. Plant detritus also takes longer to break down as clay soils are made up of much finer sediment grains which pack in tighter (slowing absorption of water) and doesn’t allow circulation of oxygen to help the materials breakdown. You are right about gradually introducing the detritus as too much too fast can burn the soil/crops much like chicken manure will with its super high nitrogen content. I’d rather not use chicken manure unless I’m feeding it to livestock (it’s got > 20% protein).

I’m a firm believer in crop rotation and growing sacrificial crops (rye grass for example) for soil improvement. I’m ok with very limited use of chemical fertilizers/pesticides but would rather have, and think it’s more important to have, a better understanding of the chemical make-up of my fields so that I can better serve it’s needs. I think I’m a #3 but I see soil as an aggregate of both dead and living materials and it’s our responsibility as farmer/gardener to help maintain a healthy balance in the soil.

On the tractor note I would go with 4WD simply because of the soil conditions and the rainy season. If we had nice silty loam then 2Wd would have no problems. I was amazed to see nearly every tractor in our area is an old Ford 6610. I would reckon that nearly every one of them was a reconditioned machine as they are a mid to late 80’s model. Some looked beat to death and others looked brand spanking new. If the machine is in good shape than I wouldn’t be too worried about it’s age. Just this past spring while visiting my folks in Missouri I watched an ol’timer tilling a 20 acre field with a John Deere Model B, what a beautiful sight that was! Of course watching the locals till their flooded fields with Iron Buffalos (I wonder what they are rated at) was pretty wild to me as a dry-lander. I’ve only seen the locals using the tractors on the dry fields but have seen pictures of them being used in flooded fields. I have nightmares of burying the combine in the soybean fields from my youth. Where I grew up (Oklahoma) we figured about 1 hp for every two acres (5 rai) but you may want to adjust that higher based on the water factor here in Thailand. To me a 6610 with about 80 hp (63kw) would be over kill for only 6 rai , could justify it by hiring out and working others fields. I’m leaning in the area of 40hp for our 21 rai and I’m basing that on what equipage I want to power with it. Of course this is all subject to change as I learn more about the intricacies of Thai agriculture. Everyone’s inputs here have really got me looking for more information and the practical experiences are very informative.

Eric

[Pseacraft]

I utilized my high speed internet and found some interesting links on the subject of nitrogen and legumes:

This link is about Forage Legumes but it explains how the nitrogen process works:

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/...ts/DC5963a.html

This link is a extremely detailed explanation of the process - it's graphic too! J

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/...enFixation.html

Another good link on the subject:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00305.html

Another from the Canuck point of view:

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departme...33?opendocument

This Aussie one is better, KKU is working with the issue:

http://www.aciar.gov.au/web.nsf/doc/ACIA-62DLWU

And better yet…the Organic Farming Network of Thailand:

http://www.nfe.go.th/65/nfe65/svita2545/wangnumkheaw/

Now to practice my Thai reading ability...

Eric