After deal, Israel still vows to block an Iran nuclear bomb

[wabothai]

I hope next time Israel will vote for a more peaceful leader. He is a dangerous man and forms a threat to worldpeace.

[konying]

So what?

Your statement said, quote "Their air force consists of some 40 year old F-14s and even older F-4s and F-5s." You didn't even bother to check the accuracy of what you said. The Russians and the Chinese have already sold them aircraft.

If you say something, try to back it up with facts. At least it proves you know a little of what you are talking about.

Just suppose that Saudi Arabia doesn't permit overflights, doesn't allow landing and refuelling, and tells Isreal no way across our airspace and if you do we will defend ourselves and shoot down your aircraft.

Then what will Isreal and indeed the USA also do next?

Either you talking hypothetical or do not have a clue about the region

Not only Saudi's will allow Israel and who ever else wishes to fly over to bomb Iran, but will most likely provide FREE fuel and pay for more bombs to be dropped on Iran

[konying]

I hope next time Israel will vote for a more peaceful leader. He is a dangerous man and forms a threat to worldpeace.

Someone without kahunas? who will let anyone and everyone attack Israel any time they wish without repercussions?

I HOPE not

[Jingthing]

I hope next time Israel will vote for a more peaceful leader. He is a dangerous man and forms a threat to worldpeace.

Someone without kahunas? who will let anyone and everyone attack Israel any time they wish without repercussions?

I HOPE not

Yep, that's what the Israel demonizers want. Just like the leaders of Iran. The end of Israel. Given the way things have developed in the region, no, there is very little chance of Israeli leadership much to left of Bibi in the near future. The existential threats to Israel are more existential-y and threat-y than ever.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[DeaconJohn]

Reread your original post. You said Jews ENTIRELY control. Entirely means 100 percent.

You said non-Jews have virtually no voice. No voice means ZERO percent voice for non-Jews.

You blamed JEWS specifically in a RACIST way entirely for the U.S. wars and U.S. war dead. Left wing and right wing Jews.

Like the Jews are killing the Christian children ... similar to Judeophobic classic BLOOD LIBEL.

Dude, that is disgusting racist rhetoric and if you didn't mean what you said which is just like that Malay PM, you can retract and apologize for it. Otherwise, it is what you said, anti-Jewish hate speech.

It is pretty close to 100% and there is nothing racist about my post. There is quite a bit of racism in your posts however. I have nothing to apologize for by stating an easily proven fact admitted to by Jews themselves. And per your previous post; yes I do have Jewish friends and even my favorite ex-wife. To call me a Nazi is ridiculous; but typical from hysterical hyper- Zionists like yourself. I do believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself; but I am also tired of the Israeli Lobby's domination of our ME foreign policy.

You paint a Judeophobic picture of total Jewish control of the M.E. foreign policy of the most powerful country in the world, and suggest an international conspiracy of Jews to sacrifice non-Jewish lives for their "selfish" Jewish motives. You can deny 1000 times ... honest people will see what you wrote as racist rhetoric you would hear from Nazis. Again, nothing personal about you, don't go there, you distort by going there, I don't care who you are. I was only talking about your racist rhetoric.

Anyway as you don't retract, fine, I suppose the thing to do now as I don't choose to engage with people where there is no communication possible, and a person who actually believes Judeophobic rhetoric as you do ... no point ... so welcome to my ignore list.

You're losing it, bro.

[Jingthing]

Reread your original post. You said Jews ENTIRELY control. Entirely means 100 percent.

You said non-Jews have virtually no voice. No voice means ZERO percent voice for non-Jews.

You blamed JEWS specifically in a RACIST way entirely for the U.S. wars and U.S. war dead. Left wing and right wing Jews.

Like the Jews are killing the Christian children ... similar to Judeophobic classic BLOOD LIBEL.

Dude, that is disgusting racist rhetoric and if you didn't mean what you said which is just like that Malay PM, you can retract and apologize for it. Otherwise, it is what you said, anti-Jewish hate speech.

It is pretty close to 100% and there is nothing racist about my post. There is quite a bit of racism in your posts however. I have nothing to apologize for by stating an easily proven fact admitted to by Jews themselves. And per your previous post; yes I do have Jewish friends and even my favorite ex-wife. To call me a Nazi is ridiculous; but typical from hysterical hyper- Zionists like yourself. I do believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself; but I am also tired of the Israeli Lobby's domination of our ME foreign policy.

You paint a Judeophobic picture of total Jewish control of the M.E. foreign policy of the most powerful country in the world, and suggest an international conspiracy of Jews to sacrifice non-Jewish lives for their "selfish" Jewish motives. You can deny 1000 times ... honest people will see what you wrote as racist rhetoric you would hear from Nazis. Again, nothing personal about you, don't go there, you distort by going there, I don't care who you are. I was only talking about your racist rhetoric.

Anyway as you don't retract, fine, I suppose the thing to do now as I don't choose to engage with people where there is no communication possible, and a person who actually believes Judeophobic rhetoric as you do ... no point ... so welcome to my ignore list.

You're losing it, bro.

Nothing to say about the topic, huh?

[Jonmarleesco]

'Cabinet Minister Miri Regev said the agreement gave Iran a "license to kill."'

'"This is a regime based in deceit ..." Yair Lapid, the head of the opposition Yesh Atid Party, told The Associated Press.'

Both statements seem remarkably close to Israel's own governing culture. Never mind that Israel also possesses nuclear weapons, and I certainly wouldn't trust it not to use them.

[chuckd]

Their air force consists of some 40 year old F-14s and even older F-4s and F-5s.

They need to leave their air force in mothballs until the Russians and Chinese sell them some new fighter jets, right after Obama gives them $100 Billion or so.

Your one solution is not workable.

Have a look here at the Iranian Air Force.

granted it is "only" Wikipedia but.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Iranian_Air_Force

I call your Iranian Air Force and raise you one Israeli Air Force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force

Compare the aircraft available for each side, think about it for a moment and then think about the ability of the pilots.

So what?

Your statement said, quote "Their air force consists of some 40 year old F-14s and even older F-4s and F-5s." You didn't even bother to check the accuracy of what you said. The Russians and the Chinese have already sold them aircraft.

If you say something, try to back it up with facts. At least it proves you know a little of what you are talking about.

Just suppose that Saudi Arabia doesn't permit overflights, doesn't allow landing and refuelling, and tells Isreal no way across our airspace and if you do we will defend ourselves and shoot down your aircraft.

Then what will Isreal and indeed the USA also do next?

I had already looked at the Wikipedia site you linked to. I noticed they had some Chinese and Russian aircraft, but had completely forgotten about the F-14 Tomcats that were there when I was. I left in early 1979.

To be quite frank, I dismissed the Chinese and Russian aircraft as being virtually useless when considering the capabilities of the F-15s and F-16s the Israeli Air Force uses.

When you put the aircraft side by side you then must put the pilots there as well. Now, which ones do you honestly feel will perform better under stress, the Iranians or the Israelis?

Saudi will allow overflights for the Israeli Air Force to hit Iran's nuclear points and the Israeli air force already has KC-135 tankers. They aren't about to fire on aircraft going to do a job they want done.

[Thorgal]

Just an update, instead of a reply: - please don't edit this one -

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/iran-nuclear-talks/netanyahu-lester-holt-iran-deal-poses-threat-u-s-israel-n392441

Edited July 15, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

The deal with unintended consequences ...

I would say celebrations are premature.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran/Israel-slams-those-slamming-it-for-criticizing-Iran-deal-409119

Steinitz said that as the world powers were celebrating the accord, along with most of the world, Israel was like the boy Hans Christian Andersen’s story “The Emperor's New Clothes.”

“We are saying this agreement is naked,” he said. “There is one little brave country that is warning the world, saying look, 'the king is naked,' this deal is wrong,” he added.

Steinitz said this agreement is “extremely relevant to Israel's future existence, so we cannot keep silent.”

Steinitz characterized as “naive” those who believe that sanctions relief that will pour some $150 billion into the Iranian economy will not have an effect on the Middle East.

Giving this money to Iran, he said, is tantamount to “pouring fire on the burning Middle East, and we will unfortunately see the effect in the next few years.”

[notmyself]

Make of it what you will but it has to be remembered that Israel does not want peace, at any cost.

Dear friend,

I have enough respect for you to ask whether you understand the difference between two phrases:

Israel does not want peace, at any cost.

and

Israel does not want peace at any cost.

If you agree that punctuation here assigns an entirely new meaning - please acknowledge your position.

IMHO Israel does not want war. It wants peace. But not at any cost.

My kingdom for a comma.

Israel cannot afford to have peace because it would leave time for other matters concerning the state to be discussed, perhaps illuminated. Someone or some body may look into the justification for creating the state of Israel and Israel are aware of this.... not happy. It was U.S. pressure that led to its creation, not rational thought, so if it could be appealed against it would lose. The chances of this ever happening are so small as to be negligible but that is not the same as impossible or could never happen. Being in a constant state of war is not cheap but the U.S. pretty much picks up the tab anyway. People are more compliant too.

[Merzik]

The founder of the Zionist movement himself Theodore Hertzel laid out his plans for a "Greater Israel" that stretched from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers ( represented by the two stripes on the Israeli flag) in his diary. Herzel's plan has been updated and expanded by Israeli planners and includes the states that go beyond this boundry; such as Iran and Lybia. The Zionist plan calls for all of Israel's neighbors to broken up into smaller, weaker ethnic states which are at war with each other; such as modern day Iraq, Syria and Lybia. Iran is definately on their to-do list. This plan ( known as the "Oded Yinon plan" has been translated from Hebrew into English by the Israeli scholar Israel Shahak and can be found below:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815

The Oded Yinon plan was drawn up during the Cold War and the Israeli scholar who translated it into English had this to say about it :

"... The strong connection with Neo-Conservative thought in the USA is very prominent, especially in the authors notes. But, while lip service is paid to the idea of the defense of the West from Soviet power, the real aim of the author, and of the present Israeli establishment is clear: To make an Imperial Israel into a world power. In other words, the aim of Sharon is to deceive the Americans after he has deceived all the rest...."

In other words Professor Shahak is saying that the USA is the "Useful Idiot" of Israel. I agree.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Merzik

[ABCer]

<quote> " My kingdom for a comma."

I like your proposal. Would you consider my offer:

I give you a horse and a sword (or a knife - whatever...), you give up the comma and let Israelis keep the Kingdom?

Yeah, no deal!? I thought so.

And that's a pity, because you, me and every pro- and anti-Israeli on TV just as the rest of the World use Jewish inventions and discoveries every day.

I would be very happy to hear a reasonable explanation as to why people are anti- either Jews or Israel.

BTW, neither USA picks up Israelis bills like you suggest nor USA was among first to recognise Israeli State. From memory it was Stalin (I may be wrong?)

There is about 6 million Jews in USA. And they are not the poorest minority there. I think they pass the bag around for collections.

But Israelis make a good income for themselves, I think, - and I do not mean peas, cucumbers and oranges...

[Chicog]

The deal with unintended consequences ...

I would say celebrations are premature.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran/Israel-slams-those-slamming-it-for-criticizing-Iran-deal-409119

Steinitz said that as the world powers were celebrating the accord, along with most of the world, Israel was like the boy Hans Christian Andersen’s story “The Emperor's New Clothes.”

“We are saying this agreement is naked,” he said. “There is one little brave country that is warning the world, saying look, 'the king is naked,' this deal is wrong,” he added.

Steinitz said this agreement is “extremely relevant to Israel's future existence, so we cannot keep silent.”

Steinitz characterized as “naive” those who believe that sanctions relief that will pour some $150 billion into the Iranian economy will not have an effect on the Middle East.

Giving this money to Iran, he said, is tantamount to “pouring fire on the burning Middle East, and we will unfortunately see the effect in the next few years.”

Jingoistic claptrap. The biggest threat to the middle east is another Arab spring. The last one never really went away.

[Scott]

An off-topic post and reply have been removed. This is about the nuclear deal.

[sdanielmcev]

Because I read it here I feel a need to clarify something. Obama has no authority to override with a veto any treaty that the Senate confirms or denies.

[Seastallion]

Because I read it here I feel a need to clarify something. Obama has no authority to override with a veto any treaty that the Senate confirms or denies.

It's not a treaty. He can. He will.

And since the Republicans won't get in at the next election, nothing will change for at least 5 years.

Iran knows this and will be making use of those first 5 years....just in case the GOP get in in 2020.

Hopefully those 5 years will be enough to kickstart the economy and get some defensive measures in place.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Seastallion

[chuckd]

...and to get their bomb making factory in full operation.

[Seastallion]

...and to get their bomb making factory in full operation.

Well, that would be going against the deal....however, most reasonable people wouldn't blame them if they did....they are, after all, under continuous threat from an aggressive and nuclear armed rogue state. They should have the bomb as a defensive deterrence.

[chuckd]

...and to get their bomb making factory in full operation.

Well, that would be going against the deal....however, most reasonable people wouldn't blame them if they did....they are, after all, under continuous threat from an aggressive and nuclear armed rogue state. They should have the bomb as a defensive deterrence.

Heaven forbid if the Islamic Republic of Iran would ever dare "going against the deal".

I may have missed it in the news, I don't read Palestinian propaganda, but when were the Iranians threatened by a "nuclear armed rogue state" with nuclear holocaust?

[arjunadawn]

The founder of the Zionist movement himself Theodore Hertzel laid out his plans for a "Greater Israel" that stretched from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers ( represented by the two stripes on the Israeli flag) in his diary. Herzel's plan has been updated and expanded by Israeli planners and includes the states that go beyond this boundry; such as Iran and Lybia. The Zionist plan calls for all of Israel's neighbors to broken up into smaller, weaker ethnic states which are at war with each other; such as modern day Iraq, Syria and Lybia. Iran is definately on their to-do list. This plan ( known as the "Oded Yinon plan" has been translated from Hebrew into English by the Israeli scholar Israel Shahak and can be found below:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815

The Oded Yinon plan was drawn up during the Cold War and the Israeli scholar who translated it into English had this to say about it :

"... The strong connection with Neo-Conservative thought in the USA is very prominent, especially in the authors notes. But, while lip service is paid to the idea of the defense of the West from Soviet power, the real aim of the author, and of the present Israeli establishment is clear: To make an Imperial Israel into a world power. In other words, the aim of Sharon is to deceive the Americans after he has deceived all the rest...."

In other words Professor Shahak is saying that the USA is the "Useful Idiot" of Israel. I agree.

a pretty solid supporter of Israel I was nevertheless quite disturbed a few years ago when someone showed me a Shekel, or some Israeli coin. What caught my eye was the obverse. There appeared the region of Israel- no problem there- but it stretched to the Tigris/Euphrates. I am not stupid and such a thing only happens when something is avowed or commonly accepted or such... It continues to trouble me whether this had any meaning or legitimacy. You see, for me, if this coin represents something of the framework which I do not see, I am deeply disturbed. This land never... never belonged to Jews... never. So, while I continue to support Israel it is no longer emphatically. I continually look for leads to confirm or deny that single point of light regarding that coin, and its meaning.

[arjunadawn]

...and to get their bomb making factory in full operation.

Well, that would be going against the deal....however, most reasonable people wouldn't blame them if they did....they are, after all, under continuous threat from an aggressive and nuclear armed rogue state. They should have the bomb as a defensive deterrence.

Wow! "that would be going against the deal" but its justifiable, or at least explainable, is an example of the how the narrative of Iran's shortly defaulting on this agreement will play out in the media; this is exactly how the facts of Iranian intransigence will be cast in media. While on the one hand I can support the simple logic that if one enemy has the bomb the opponent should be able to declare the same authority. This is basic kindergarten logic. It is not faulty, on its face. But it is absurd in practice. Also, there is a remarkable difference between the parties in sponsoring aggression through proxies and avowed aims to war. But Israel does this, that, yes. Ok, but this is orders of magnitude different than declaring the sole aim of the state is the destruction of another.

So, while on the one hand I accept basically the argument why should not others have the same capacity, I object to it... for a host of obvious reasons, and proliferation is high on the list. While not always restrained it has been repeatedly proven Israel can at least be managed. Iran cannot be managed by any other players, not with any degree of control. I just think it is a bad idea.

[Jingthing]

a pretty solid supporter of Israel I was nevertheless quite disturbed a few years ago when someone showed me a Shekel, or some Israeli coin. What caught my eye was the obverse. There appeared the region of Israel- no problem there- but it stretched to the Tigris/Euphrates. I am not stupid and such a thing only happens when something is avowed or commonly accepted or such... It continues to trouble me whether this had any meaning or legitimacy. You see, for me, if this coin represents something of the framework which I do not see, I am deeply disturbed. This land never... never belonged to Jews... never. So, while I continue to support Israel it is no longer emphatically. I continually look for leads to confirm or deny that single point of light regarding that coin, and its meaning.

Here you go.

The coin thing is about nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_agorot_controversy

If anyone changes their views about the Israel - Palestinian conflict over this coin ... well, that's just absurd.

Next ...

[Credo]

I was, and still am, skeptical of this deal. I don't trust Iran, but that might be a result of the incessant propaganda about them, including the clips of their rallies chanting 'death to....'

That said, it is better that a deal has been struck and they have the opportunity to move forward. If they renege then all bets are off and Israel will have a lot of support in taking their nuclear facilities out.

[Jingthing]

They might have support if they can prove that Iran is cheating but it will be hard to prove that Iran is cheating because of the limitations to the inspections program, giving Iran lots of room to ... CHEAT. Of course, they're going to cheat. They've cheated before, that is known, they want nuclear weapons, that is known as well.

Iran will have these nukes sooner or later.

The more important question is whether this big gamble on Iran becoming a better country will pay off ... one where it isn't as troubling that they will have the nukes which they will have.

Bottom line, nobody really knows whether this gamble is going to pay off.

Some are optimistic and some are pessimistic and there are rational reasons to feel either way.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

a pretty solid supporter of Israel I was nevertheless quite disturbed a few years ago when someone showed me a Shekel, or some Israeli coin. What caught my eye was the obverse. There appeared the region of Israel- no problem there- but it stretched to the Tigris/Euphrates. I am not stupid and such a thing only happens when something is avowed or commonly accepted or such... It continues to trouble me whether this had any meaning or legitimacy. You see, for me, if this coin represents something of the framework which I do not see, I am deeply disturbed. This land never... never belonged to Jews... never. So, while I continue to support Israel it is no longer emphatically. I continually look for leads to confirm or deny that single point of light regarding that coin, and its meaning.

Here you go.

The coin thing is about nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_agorot_controversy

If anyone changes their views about the Israel - Palestinian conflict over this coin ... well, that's just absurd.

Next ...

I feel fairly confident my posts declare where I stand with regard to Israel, and I suspect you know I am at least close to the same camp as you. But yes, I was troubled by this and found little other info about it- dont think I really looked. Yes, it remained in the back of my mind but I never said my views changed, only that I was disturbed that such a thing might be possible. I always try to remain open as I have been deceived, like others, before. I thought my post was a fair confession, but impartial. Yes, the link you provided is the issue.

In defense of wild conspiracies I do place the coin drama in perspective. In both Yemen and Pakistan I found the same story told from fighters with regard to the CIA/Israeli vampire battalions. I work with some pretty quick thinkers so the first time we heard this story we each knew exactly where it would next go. Straight faced, we took advantage of the pause and the eager faces waiting for confirmation, and told them "Yes, it is true. But it is very secret so dont tell others. There are vampire battalions." This is a fair enough context to place the coin issue within. I just recalled that single coin issue but did not know the context previously. Thanks.

[Steely Dan]

As I predicted earlier in the thread nobody would try to defend the deal on its merits, as there are none. Instead we get a collection of hackneyed equivalence arguments plus the usual antisemitism from some of our esteemed members. As Charles Krauthammer remarked, this is the worst deal in U.S diplomatic history. As Clinton has promised to approve the deal there will never be enough democrats voting against it to overturn Obamas veto, so IMHO military action is inevitable, the only questions being by who and when.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/worse-than-we-could-have-imagined/2015/07/16/aa320b42-2bf0-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

Edited July 18, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Seastallion]

As I predicted earlier in the thread nobody would try to defend the deal on its merits, as there are none. Instead we get a collection of hackneyed equivalence arguments plus the usual antisemitism from some of our esteemed members. As Charles Krauthammer remarked, this is the worst deal in U.S diplomatic history. As Clinton has promised to approve the deal there will never be enough democrats voting against it to overturn Obamas veto, so IMHO military action is inevitable, the only questions being by who and when.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/worse-than-we-could-have-imagined/2015/07/16/aa320b42-2bf0-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

As usual, anything against your view on these topics is antisemitism. THAT is what is hackneyed.

You've made that nasty allegation...examples please.

[notmyself]

My kingdom for a comma.

I like your proposal. Would you consider my offer:

I give you a horse and a sword (or a knife - whatever...), you give up the comma and let Israelis keep the Kingdom?

Yeah, no deal!? I thought so.

And that's a pity, because you, me and every pro- and anti-Israeli on TV just as the rest of the World use Jewish inventions and discoveries every day.

Do you expect me to take that as a valid argument?

[Steely Dan]

As I predicted earlier in the thread nobody would try to defend the deal on its merits, as there are none. Instead we get a collection of hackneyed equivalence arguments plus the usual antisemitism from some of our esteemed members. As Charles Krauthammer remarked, this is the worst deal in U.S diplomatic history. As Clinton has promised to approve the deal there will never be enough democrats voting against it to overturn Obamas veto, so IMHO military action is inevitable, the only questions being by who and when.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/worse-than-we-could-have-imagined/2015/07/16/aa320b42-2bf0-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

As usual, anything against your view on these topics is antisemitism. THAT is what is hackneyed.

You've made that nasty allegation...examples please.

An example would be an obsession with Israel such that the majority of ones posts are about it, a bit like the UNHRC, though probably without the jet setting, expense accounts and all expenses paid trips to the fleshpots and casinos of sundry world capitals.

The same example applies to many of our esteemed members, even those with a self sanitizing Jewish friend.