Former Auschwitz guard, 94, convicted as accessory to murder

[Saradoc1972]

-- NEWS UPDATE --

One of the lawyers for the co-plaintiffs has filed an appeal to the BGH (Bundesgerichtshof=German Supreme Court) to have Gröning convicted for murder (instead of just being an accessory).

The reasoning behind this probably needs some explanation.

Gröning CANNOT be convicted for murder as such, because he did not kill anyone directly, with his own hands or an act amounting to that.

Including "non-action" to that effect, because he was not a guarantor of any kind for the murdered Jews.

So while we can only speculate as to the motives behind that motion, it seems very likely that was done to get a clarification by the BGH if that rather new legal attitude (i.e. having been in a concentration camp where people were murdered in any capacity is enough for being an accessory to murder) holds water.

The BGH (first senate if I am not mistaken) was appealed to in 2011 by the defense for the late John Demjanjuk, but as those proceedings took some time (some said, it had been unduly protracted) and Demjanjuk died of natural causes over that time, the issue remained unresolved. Meaning: that chap died as an innocent man and got buried at the expense of the German community where he died.

If I am not mistaken this time it will be the third senate of the BGH to rule on this, if Gröning's health keeps up we might get an answer this time.

The immediate effect is that Gröning will remain a free man, as this precludes the verdict of Lüneburg district court to become legally decided while that appeal runs. If he can be put in jail at all with a view to age and ill health.

Actually, I already alluded to the outcome in a prior post, if Gröning is not daft he will also appeal. Morality or not, they are forcing his hand in this matter. Prosecution actually asked for a sentence of some three years with 22 month counting as already served for reason of a rather protracted trial (70 years), to enable Gröning to accept the verdict, and walk free with the usual reduction of actual jail-time of 2/3 or 1/2 for "first offenders", but the court did not go along.

He is actually facing a huge bill for the co-plaintiffs' lawyers (here, in German). With 14 of them having attended the trial and getting paid for every single day in court, and his own defense lawyer, of course, and some costs for the proceedings as such, including translators and the building they rented for the trial. If there is no verdict, which might still happen as in the Demjanjuk case because you cannot have procedures against someone deceased, the costs will fall on the state and the co-plaintiffs.We are easily talking about 1/4-million Euro

So, depending on his financial situation and what wants to leave his children and wife, I would not be surprised if...

[Saradoc1972]

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

I don't like that way of arguing, its what a lot of holocaust-deniers try to prove.

Auschwitz happened, unbelievable numbers of innocent people died in an unimaginable way. There are buildings full of proof for this, and droves of witnesses. There just is no way to argue about it or the general numbers. This is a dead parrot.

In the trial Gröning himself testified how the SS prided themselves on being able to process 5.000 corpses a day. ["Man rühmte sich, dass man in 24 Stunden 5000 Tote versorgen könnte." (Gröning zum Verbleib der Ermordeten)]

Good enough for your maths?

[Saradoc1972]

Update. I wouldn't call it news.

Groening went on appeal. [here, and here]

Like clockwork.

§206a (1) StPO anyone ?

[SheungWan]

I find it a bit odd that this trial took months. He basically confessed so why bring in many holocaust survivors to testify? He was physically present at the camp. So if being present at the camp and on the side with bad guys being all you need, why so long?

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

He was at the camp around 2 years and was not a guard. The guards were Ukrainian POWs not SS personnel. The SS cadre was relatively small for many reason but imagine them needing all able bodied German soldiers on the two fronts.

You should imagine less and study more.

So we have the weasel words 'So if he was present at the camp and on the side with bad guys being all you need (to convict)' . Mr Groning was a volunteer member of the SS. His duties included seizing money and other valuables from prisoners arriving at the death camp. He was convicted of being an accessory to murder.

Edited July 20, 2015 by SheungWan

[teatree]

So, if this guy had refused to work in the camp, his superiors would have understood and just sent him to do the book keeping at another location? I don't think so.

Seems like he is being punished for being German in the wrong place during WW2.

[slipperylobster]

its a little bit late isnt it?

Hell has no schedule for those Nazi pigs.

Genocide should be treated as a crime with no statute of limitations.

If you work for a business that exists solely for smoking/gassing/burning/torturing herds of people....hundreds or thousands daily...then you are part of the problem.

On a small scale, how about you join a group of friends who have decided to make murder their main mission if life. You never pull the trigger..but drive the car, lock people inside their place of execution, and dump the dead corpses in a ditch.

It is called...murder...guilt by association....whether you pull the trigger or not.

Edited July 21, 2015 by slipperylobster

[Pakboong]

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

I don't like that way of arguing, its what a lot of holocaust-deniers try to prove.

Auschwitz happened, unbelievable numbers of innocent people died in an unimaginable way. There are buildings full of proof for this, and droves of witnesses. There just is no way to argue about it or the general numbers. This is a dead parrot.

In the trial Gröning himself testified how the SS prided themselves on being able to process 5.000 corpses a day. ["Man rühmte sich, dass man in 24 Stunden 5000 Tote versorgen könnte." (Gröning zum Verbleib der Ermordeten)]

Good enough for your maths?

It is indeed unfortunate that among the very few absolutes we have in our universe are math and science. I tend to rely on those more than I do on human theory.

[hawker9000]

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

I don't like that way of arguing, its what a lot of holocaust-deniers try to prove.

Auschwitz happened, unbelievable numbers of innocent people died in an unimaginable way. There are buildings full of proof for this, and droves of witnesses. There just is no way to argue about it or the general numbers. This is a dead parrot.

In the trial Gröning himself testified how the SS prided themselves on being able to process 5.000 corpses a day. ["Man rühmte sich, dass man in 24 Stunden 5000 Tote versorgen könnte." (Gröning zum Verbleib der Ermordeten)]

Good enough for your maths?

It is indeed unfortunate that among the very few absolutes we have in our universe are math and science. I tend to rely on those more than I do on human theory.

Almost all, maybe I should say all, of what math & science teach us started out as "theory" ... And while waiting to be proven, who's to say what's worth relying upon and what's not? Historically, it's been a matter of what individuals believed to be true and considered worthy of their investment of time & effort to either prove or to exploit. Columbus' theory was that he could find a route to Asia by sailing west (which, in four voyages, he never did). He, and other explorers, had to do what they did based on unproven theory and strong personal belief. What he actually did discover isn't at all what he started out to prove.

I'm not sure math & science are the "absolutes" you assume them to be, nor that much of the time they don't consist of as yet unproven theories. We see what succeeds; but there's a whole lot left on the cutting room floor. Alchemy was once a "science". The classical elements, the four bodily humours, spontaneous generation, vitalism, luminiferous aether, the miasma theory of disease ... all once "science".

[Pakboong]

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

I don't like that way of arguing, its what a lot of holocaust-deniers try to prove.

Auschwitz happened, unbelievable numbers of innocent people died in an unimaginable way. There are buildings full of proof for this, and droves of witnesses. There just is no way to argue about it or the general numbers. This is a dead parrot.

In the trial Gröning himself testified how the SS prided themselves on being able to process 5.000 corpses a day. ["Man rühmte sich, dass man in 24 Stunden 5000 Tote versorgen könnte." (Gröning zum Verbleib der Ermordeten)]

Good enough for your maths?

It is indeed unfortunate that among the very few absolutes we have in our universe are math and science. I tend to rely on those more than I do on human theory.

Almost all, maybe I should say all, of what math & science teach us started out as "theory" ... And while waiting to be proven, who's to say what's worth relying upon and what's not? Historically, it's been a matter of what individuals believed to be true and considered worthy of their investment of time & effort to either prove or to exploit. Columbus' theory was that he could find a route to Asia by sailing west (which, in four voyages, he never did). He, and other explorers, had to do what they did based on unproven theory and strong personal belief. What he actually did discover isn't at all what he started out to prove.

I'm not sure math & science are the "absolutes" you assume them to be, nor that much of the time they don't consist of as yet unproven theories. We see what succeeds; but there's a whole lot left on the cutting room floor. Alchemy was once a "science". The classical elements, the four bodily humours, spontaneous generation, vitalism, luminiferous aether, the miasma theory of disease ... all once "science".

We don't really disagree but math and science are as close as we have. It is pretty hard to hide 10,500,000 kg of coal which is what it would take to cremate 300,000 bodies at 35 kg per body. It is a good thing they got everything/everybody delivered before D-Day as after Jun 6th, the Nazis quickly lost their ability to use the rails. The allies pretty much bombed them daily.

[SheungWan]

So, if this guy had refused to work in the camp, his superiors would have understood and just sent him to do the book keeping at another location? I don't think so.

Seems like he is being punished for being German in the wrong place during WW2.

So what is it about the words 'volunteer SS recruit' that you have difficulty understanding?

[eliotness]

So many war criminals from WW2 escaped justice. This man was just a small cog in a big wheel. It's fitting that he'll probably die in prison, but hardly much consolation to the survivors of the camps.

And all war criminals on the Allied side escaped......

It is a fact, right or wrong, that the victors write the history. It was been that way since mankind sought to conquer other mankind. WW2 was no different, very sad but that's what happens.

[eliotness]

its a little bit late isnt it?

There can never be time limits on obtaining justice.

The atrocities committed by the German Nazis and their collaborators during WW2, should never be forgotten or forgiven, especially considering that this is still in living memory and still a living nightmare for many who survived.

He was already trialed decades ago and found NOT guilty. So he is now at court a second time for the same crime of being a bookkeeper who asked 3 times for a different job.

(You really didn't reject a job with the Nazis, unless you want to see Auschwitz from the other side)

Possible, but I think rather he would have been moved to a Waffen SS division, or possibly one of the einsatzgruppen. Either way the chances of surviving the war would have been much reduced.

[Saradoc1972]

So, if this guy had refused to work in the camp, his superiors would have understood and just sent him to do the book keeping at another location? I don't think so.

Seems like he is being punished for being German in the wrong place during WW2.

So what is it about the words 'volunteer SS recruit' that you have difficulty understanding?

I actually find myself thinking along those lines (teatree's).

The point being: what did he volunteer for, what did he find himself in after that?

Gröning was not innocent, he never claimed to be (after 1950 anyway, when they stopped going after the small SS-minnows).

He did volunteer for the SS, but that does not mean he volunteered for the whole thing and to be part of the murdering machine.

What he originally wanted to be was part of the SS as an elite force, it's what he stated in court, it's what the judge told him when giving reasons for the conviction.

He had been brought up to believe what they told him about Jews, and the necessity for the German Reich to defend itself and do away with the perceived injustices Germany suffered from after WW I,

the whole dog-eat-dog world and racism narrative he got taught at school.

Just read the whole things on Wikipedia.

Hard to see how he could have found his own way out of that doctrine when almost everyone around him was thinking along the same lines, more or less. When they started pogroms on the Jews in 1933,

he would have been 12 to 17 (Kristallnacht) and probably saw the whole thing as a big justified fair. Not every non-Jew in Germany did, but if you are hanging out with the wrong sort of people at that age...

He joined the SS at a recruiting point in a hotel when he was 19. You know a lot about the world at that age.

So he wanted to be a German elite soldier, although at a desk job, wage war on the Germany's perceived enemies, push the Jews out of the country. At that point in time they were talking about

rounding them up and resettling them to Madagascar or Palestine. NOT murdering or gassing them. That part was invented when the war did not seem to come to an end in 1942 (here).

At the point in time he was commanded to go to Auschwitz he could hardly have prevented that, he did not even know what sort of place he would be going to.

And then there was no quick way out for him. He tried three times.

He was not innocent, he had joined the fray against the Jews before the war, he certainly never played the hero.

But after that point in time it sound pretty much like "Wrong time, wrong place, what have I gotten myself into?".

[eliotness]

its a little bit late isnt it?

There can never be time limits on obtaining justice.

The atrocities committed by the German Nazis and their collaborators during WW2, should never be forgotten or forgiven, especially considering that this is still in living memory and still a living nightmare for many who survived.

Agreed, but those horrific events were brushed under the carpet somewhat (for several reasons) and the consequence was they were repeated in many parts of the world, Kosovo, Rwanda, Cambodia to name just a few. To quote a song "when will we ever learn, when will we ever learn" or perhaps "those that don't learn from history are destined to repeat it".

Sure the mass bombing of German cities was terrible, but the Allies had to win asap, how many more millions of innocents would have died

No, no , no. There was NO reason to kill innocent women and children by bombing Dresden. This was inhuman! And is not being justified by attempts to finish war asap. (watch the documentation "Hellststorm")

I know what you are saying, but does Hellstorm include the bombing of Guernica, Warsaw, Leningrad, Coventry, London, to mention just a few ? I apologise if it does but the link has been removed. Just one point, how on earth can you consider any war "human", surely the killing that occurs in wars is always "inhuman", it's just that the industrial revolution made mass killing so much easier, to the everlasting shame of mankind. Have you not heard the story of the inventor Hiram Maxim ? He was told "if you really want to make money invent something that will make it easier for Europeans to kill one another" or words to that effect. So he used his considerable talents and invented the machine-gun. Mass killing at the press of a button.

[eliotness]

I find it a bit odd that this trial took months. He basically confessed so why bring in many holocaust survivors to testify? He was physically present at the camp. So if being present at the camp and on the side with bad guys being all you need, why so long?

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

He was at the camp around 2 years and was not a guard. The guards were Ukrainian POWs not SS personnel. The SS cadre was relatively small for many reason but imagine them needing all able bodied German soldiers on the two fronts.

You should imagine less and study more.

So we have the weasel words 'So if he was present at the camp and on the side with bad guys being all you need (to convict)' . Mr Groning was a volunteer member of the SS. His duties included seizing money and other valuables from prisoners arriving at the death camp. He was convicted of being an accessory to murder.

You have hit on the most important point "Volunteer". Up to 1944 (not quite sure of the actual date) all members of the SS were volunteers, which is why the Waffen SS had to rely so much on ethnic Germans from conquered countries and foreign volunteers. Any commander of an SS unit could not refuse a request for a transfer to the front. He had a cushy job and every chance to make money on the side. Not only a coward but maybe a thief as well.

[eliotness]

One can make an argument that by not speaking out about the atrocities their army was committing the German people shared some of the guilt. Same is happening in the Arab world right now. Few are brave enough to speak out, especially ones in positions of authority. The King of Jordan is one of the few exceptions and is a heroic man. Few were heroic dissenters during Hitler's atrocities. So, does my heart bleed for those civilians? A little, maybe.

NOT the German Army (Wehrmacht) was to blame here, Auschwitz was purely SS-business and kept under a close lid as even they feared a public backlash. Your chap Oscar Gröning was reminded of his oath to the SS to keep his mouth shut when he was transferred to Auschwitz from his pen-pushing job.

The Wehrmacht certainly had their share in war atrocities, but mostly the kind of "things that happen during war" and not in any organized fashion.

You did not speak up against the Nazis, you followed orders. There were totally ruthless in killing dissenters, they were hanging 15-y-o from street lanterns for not wanting to join totally useless Volkssturm last-ditch suicide missions. All the individual courage got them a place on contemporary exhibitions in German city-halls with their picture and details as to how they got condemned and executed right up until mid-1945.

I'm sorry but I've got to question the assertion that the Wehrmacht atrocities were mostly the kind of things that happen during war. There is a documentary on you-tube, made for the history channel, about crimes the Wehrmacht committed, especially in Russia and Yugoslavia. The evidence was taken from conversation by Wehrmacht officers who were being held as POWs by the British and secretly "bugged". The evidence is quiet clear that the Wehrmacht took part in the murder of civilians in an organised and brutal way, not just what happens during war.

[eliotness]

There were evidentiary reasons for using the dates of the Hungarian Jews arriving at the camp between May 18 and July 15 1944. Not sure why. The claim is that 300,000 of 437,000 were gassed upon arrival. That is roughly 5,555 per day which is not likely because the 52 crematory muffles could handle only 1248 per day if all were operating 24/7.I simply cannot imagine the Nazis leaving what could amount to over half of the 300,000 bodies stacked up outside awaiting cremation. That is a small city worth of bodies. You can't even pile that many bodies if you tried.

I don't like that way of arguing, its what a lot of holocaust-deniers try to prove.

Auschwitz happened, unbelievable numbers of innocent people died in an unimaginable way. There are buildings full of proof for this, and droves of witnesses. There just is no way to argue about it or the general numbers. This is a dead parrot.

In the trial Gröning himself testified how the SS prided themselves on being able to process 5.000 corpses a day. ["Man rühmte sich, dass man in 24 Stunden 5000 Tote versorgen könnte." (Gröning zum Verbleib der Ermordeten)]

Good enough for your maths?

It is indeed unfortunate that among the very few absolutes we have in our universe are math and science. I tend to rely on those more than I do on human theory.

Almost all, maybe I should say all, of what math & science teach us started out as "theory" ... And while waiting to be proven, who's to say what's worth relying upon and what's not? Historically, it's been a matter of what individuals believed to be true and considered worthy of their investment of time & effort to either prove or to exploit. Columbus' theory was that he could find a route to Asia by sailing west (which, in four voyages, he never did). He, and other explorers, had to do what they did based on unproven theory and strong personal belief. What he actually did discover isn't at all what he started out to prove.

I'm not sure math & science are the "absolutes" you assume them to be, nor that much of the time they don't consist of as yet unproven theories. We see what succeeds; but there's a whole lot left on the cutting room floor. Alchemy was once a "science". The classical elements, the four bodily humours, spontaneous generation, vitalism, luminiferous aether, the miasma theory of disease ... all once "science".

We don't really disagree but math and science are as close as we have. It is pretty hard to hide 10,500,000 kg of coal which is what it would take to cremate 300,000 bodies at 35 kg per body. It is a good thing they got everything/everybody delivered before D-Day as after Jun 6th, the Nazis quickly lost their ability to use the rails. The allies pretty much bombed them daily.

There was a programme on British TV a few years ago, sorry I don't have a reference, that was about the last few months of the "death camps" (as opposed to the concentration or labour camps) where the guards had to build huge trenches and stack the bodies with layers of logs in an attempt to burn as many corpses as they could before the Red Army arrived. Totally horrific, but it actually happened. The trenches were closed afterwards and to this day no one knows exactly how many bodies were disposed of in those trenches.

[SheungWan]

So, if this guy had refused to work in the camp, his superiors would have understood and just sent him to do the book keeping at another location? I don't think so.

Seems like he is being punished for being German in the wrong place during WW2.

So what is it about the words 'volunteer SS recruit' that you have difficulty understanding?

I actually find myself thinking along those lines (teatree's).

The point being: what did he volunteer for, what did he find himself in after that?

Gröning was not innocent, he never claimed to be (after 1950 anyway, when they stopped going after the small SS-minnows).

He did volunteer for the SS, but that does not mean he volunteered for the whole thing and to be part of the murdering machine.

What he originally wanted to be was part of the SS as an elite force, it's what he stated in court, it's what the judge told him when giving reasons for the conviction.

He had been brought up to believe what they told him about Jews, and the necessity for the German Reich to defend itself and do away with the perceived injustices Germany suffered from after WW I,

the whole dog-eat-dog world and racism narrative he got taught at school.

Just read the whole things on Wikipedia.

Hard to see how he could have found his own way out of that doctrine when almost everyone around him was thinking along the same lines, more or less. When they started pogroms on the Jews in 1933,

he would have been 12 to 17 (Kristallnacht) and probably saw the whole thing as a big justified fair. Not every non-Jew in Germany did, but if you are hanging out with the wrong sort of people at that age...

He joined the SS at a recruiting point in a hotel when he was 19. You know a lot about the world at that age.

So he wanted to be a German elite soldier, although at a desk job, wage war on the Germany's perceived enemies, push the Jews out of the country. At that point in time they were talking about

rounding them up and resettling them to Madagascar or Palestine. NOT murdering or gassing them. That part was invented when the war did not seem to come to an end in 1942 (here).

At the point in time he was commanded to go to Auschwitz he could hardly have prevented that, he did not even know what sort of place he would be going to.

And then there was no quick way out for him. He tried three times.

He was not innocent, he had joined the fray against the Jews before the war, he certainly never played the hero.

But after that point in time it sound pretty much like "Wrong time, wrong place, what have I gotten myself into?".

A pretty limp-wristed attempt at excusing an 'innocent' volunteer of the SS and an extremely poor white-washing of the period. As for 'wrong time, wrong place' one might say that that only happened after the Nazis were broken at Stalingrad, but in the case of the SS they pushed on regardless and resources were refused redirection to the eastern front. And your further attempts to perfume the poor fellow as in 'he didn't know what sort of place he would be going to'......it would appear that if there is anyone not knowing a lot about the world, that would be you.

[Saradoc1972]

NOT the German Army (Wehrmacht) was to blame here, Auschwitz was purely SS-business and kept under a close lid as even they feared a public backlash. Your chap Oscar Gröning was reminded of his oath to the SS to keep his mouth shut when he was transferred to Auschwitz from his pen-pushing job.

The Wehrmacht certainly had their share in war atrocities, but mostly the kind of "things that happen during war" and not in any organized fashion.

You did not speak up against the Nazis, you followed orders. There were totally ruthless in killing dissenters, they were hanging 15-y-o from street lanterns for not wanting to join totally useless Volkssturm last-ditch suicide missions. All the individual courage got them a place on contemporary exhibitions in German city-halls with their picture and details as to how they got condemned and executed right up until mid-1945.

I'm sorry but I've got to question the assertion that the Wehrmacht atrocities were mostly the kind of things that happen during war. There is a documentary on you-tube, made for the history channel, about crimes the Wehrmacht committed, especially in Russia and Yugoslavia. The evidence was taken from conversation by Wehrmacht officers who were being held as POWs by the British and secretly "bugged". The evidence is quiet clear that the Wehrmacht took part in the murder of civilians in an organised and brutal way, not just what happens during war.

I got a PM to that effect, I locked it up... yes, you are probably right.

Actually hard to imagine anyone should have stayed clean during the whole thing, especially a big armed force needed to conquer everything in the first place.

[eliotness]

NOT the German Army (Wehrmacht) was to blame here, Auschwitz was purely SS-business and kept under a close lid as even they feared a public backlash. Your chap Oscar Gröning was reminded of his oath to the SS to keep his mouth shut when he was transferred to Auschwitz from his pen-pushing job.

The Wehrmacht certainly had their share in war atrocities, but mostly the kind of "things that happen during war" and not in any organized fashion.

You did not speak up against the Nazis, you followed orders. There were totally ruthless in killing dissenters, they were hanging 15-y-o from street lanterns for not wanting to join totally useless Volkssturm last-ditch suicide missions. All the individual courage got them a place on contemporary exhibitions in German city-halls with their picture and details as to how they got condemned and executed right up until mid-1945.

I'm sorry but I've got to question the assertion that the Wehrmacht atrocities were mostly the kind of things that happen during war. There is a documentary on you-tube, made for the history channel, about crimes the Wehrmacht committed, especially in Russia and Yugoslavia. The evidence was taken from conversation by Wehrmacht officers who were being held as POWs by the British and secretly "bugged". The evidence is quiet clear that the Wehrmacht took part in the murder of civilians in an organised and brutal way, not just what happens during war.

I got a PM to that effect, I locked it up... yes, you are probably right.

Actually hard to imagine anyone should have stayed clean during the whole thing, especially a big armed force needed to conquer everything in the first place.

It's actually quite a sad reflection on mankind that such atrocities happened in WW2 and have continued to occur despite the knowledge we all now have. Mankind has proved we are capable of horrors that the rest of the animal kingdom is not. Even before the nazis, long before, the wars of religion were conducted in the most brutal ways.

[eliotness]

So, if this guy had refused to work in the camp, his superiors would have understood and just sent him to do the book keeping at another location? I don't think so.

Seems like he is being punished for being German in the wrong place during WW2.

So what is it about the words 'volunteer SS recruit' that you have difficulty understanding?

I actually find myself thinking along those lines (teatree's).

The point being: what did he volunteer for, what did he find himself in after that?

Gröning was not innocent, he never claimed to be (after 1950 anyway, when they stopped going after the small SS-minnows).

He did volunteer for the SS, but that does not mean he volunteered for the whole thing and to be part of the murdering machine.

What he originally wanted to be was part of the SS as an elite force, it's what he stated in court, it's what the judge told him when giving reasons for the conviction.

He had been brought up to believe what they told him about Jews, and the necessity for the German Reich to defend itself and do away with the perceived injustices Germany suffered from after WW I,

the whole dog-eat-dog world and racism narrative he got taught at school.

Just read the whole things on Wikipedia.

Hard to see how he could have found his own way out of that doctrine when almost everyone around him was thinking along the same lines, more or less. When they started pogroms on the Jews in 1933,

he would have been 12 to 17 (Kristallnacht) and probably saw the whole thing as a big justified fair. Not every non-Jew in Germany did, but if you are hanging out with the wrong sort of people at that age...

He joined the SS at a recruiting point in a hotel when he was 19. You know a lot about the world at that age.

So he wanted to be a German elite soldier, although at a desk job, wage war on the Germany's perceived enemies, push the Jews out of the country. At that point in time they were talking about

rounding them up and resettling them to Madagascar or Palestine. NOT murdering or gassing them. That part was invented when the war did not seem to come to an end in 1942 (here).

At the point in time he was commanded to go to Auschwitz he could hardly have prevented that, he did not even know what sort of place he would be going to.

And then there was no quick way out for him. He tried three times.

He was not innocent, he had joined the fray against the Jews before the war, he certainly never played the hero.

But after that point in time it sound pretty much like "Wrong time, wrong place, what have I gotten myself into?".

A pretty limp-wristed attempt at excusing an 'innocent' volunteer of the SS and an extremely poor white-washing of the period. As for 'wrong time, wrong place' one might say that that only happened after the Nazis were broken at Stalingrad, but in the case of the SS they pushed on regardless and resources were refused redirection to the eastern front. And your further attempts to perfume the poor fellow as in 'he didn't know what sort of place he would be going to'......it would appear that if there is anyone not knowing a lot about the world, that would be you.

If you read about what the Germans did to the blacks in Southwest Africa (Namibia) and on the Eastern front in WW1 the writing was on the wall. Such a talented, cultured nation reduced to barbarians !

[hawker9000]

If you read about what the Germans did to the blacks in Southwest Africa (Namibia) and on the Eastern front in WW1 the writing was on the wall. Such a talented, cultured nation reduced to barbarians !

The Japanese were no better; they just lacked Germany's "advanced extermination technology". Some ... highlights I've read some estimates of Chinese dead at Japanese hands as high as 30 million, though the usual figure cited is usually in a range between 3 and 10 million I think. (That would be Chinese only; 'doesn't count Koreans, Manchurians, Filipinos, and a host of others.) Such catastrophic losses and China's emergence on the winning side are the real reason China has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council today.

[fish fingers]

A book keeper. Wow, big scalp, I consider this just a vindictive prosecution that serves no purpose.

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

[SheungWan]

A book keeper. Wow, big scalp, I consider this just a vindictive prosecution that serves no purpose.

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

[hawker9000]

A book keeper. Wow, big scalp, I consider this just a vindictive prosecution that serves no purpose.

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

riti

Yeap. You can't help but wonder, if they were survivors of the camps, or lost a mother or father or other family member in the camps, would they be as blasé. I doubt it. You see the same phenomenon WRT the Hiroshima and Nagasaki critics. Easy to say the invasion should've gone ahead instead of the bombs when you weren't a veteran of the South Pacific landings at places like Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa and have utterly no awareness of what "Downfall" would've meant for your chances of surviving the war (or even for expected Japanese casualties in an invasion). Freedom of speech does not imply freedom from ignorance. And it's very fashionable to be forgetful and above all tolerant of history's worst atrocities (except of course anything alleged against the U.S.).

[Linky]

A book keeper. Wow, big scalp, I consider this just a vindictive prosecution that serves no purpose.

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

riti

Yeap. You can't help but wonder, if they were survivors of the camps, or lost a mother or father or other family member in the camps, would they be as blasé. I doubt it. You see the same phenomenon WRT the Hiroshima and Nagasaki critics. Easy to say the invasion should've gone ahead instead of the bombs when you weren't a veteran of the South Pacific landings at places like Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa and have utterly no awareness of what "Downfall" would've meant for your chances of surviving the war (or even for expected Japanese casualties in an invasion). Freedom of speech does not imply freedom from ignorance. And it's very fashionable to be forgetful and above all tolerant of history's worst atrocities (except of course anything alleged against the U.S.).

I believe one of his accusers was in court for proceedings and bore no hatred towards him, actually I think she hoped he got off.

So that answers your question

[hawker9000]

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

riti

Yeap. You can't help but wonder, if they were survivors of the camps, or lost a mother or father or other family member in the camps, would they be as blasé. I doubt it. You see the same phenomenon WRT the Hiroshima and Nagasaki critics. Easy to say the invasion should've gone ahead instead of the bombs when you weren't a veteran of the South Pacific landings at places like Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa and have utterly no awareness of what "Downfall" would've meant for your chances of surviving the war (or even for expected Japanese casualties in an invasion). Freedom of speech does not imply freedom from ignorance. And it's very fashionable to be forgetful and above all tolerant of history's worst atrocities (except of course anything alleged against the U.S.).

I believe one of his accusers was in court for proceedings and bore no hatred towards him, actually I think she hoped he got off.

So that answers your question

ONE advocate for mitigation (that you're apparently not even sure of) vs hundreds of thousands (MILLIONS if you count all the camps) of camp dead!! You can't possibly be serious. Are you suggesting this one person can/could speak for all the victims of Auschwitz, OR all the millions that had to die to extinguish such Nazi horrors? (And besides, even you are qualifying your statement with "I-believe"s and "I-think"s.) No, I think I'll let my question stand, and I'll be the judge of whether or not it's been answered (the wild presumptions of others notwithstanding), thanks.

It's good for this person if this one person - and even perhaps some others - is/are indeed able to forgive and be so forbearing, but that really doesn't mitigate the horrors that took place at the hands of the SS, or cancel the necessity of bringing members of the SS to justice, however old they are now or wherever they may be. It just doesn't.

[Linky]

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

riti

Yeap. You can't help but wonder, if they were survivors of the camps, or lost a mother or father or other family member in the camps, would they be as blasé. I doubt it. You see the same phenomenon WRT the Hiroshima and Nagasaki critics. Easy to say the invasion should've gone ahead instead of the bombs when you weren't a veteran of the South Pacific landings at places like Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa and have utterly no awareness of what "Downfall" would've meant for your chances of surviving the war (or even for expected Japanese casualties in an invasion). Freedom of speech does not imply freedom from ignorance. And it's very fashionable to be forgetful and above all tolerant of history's worst atrocities (except of course anything alleged against the U.S.).

I believe one of his accusers was in court for proceedings and bore no hatred towards him, actually I think she hoped he got off.

So that answers your question

ONE advocate for mitigation (that you're apparently not even sure of) vs hundreds of thousands (MILLIONS if you count all the camps) of camp dead!! You can't possibly be serious. Are you suggesting this one person can/could speak for all the victims of Auschwitz, OR all the millions that had to die to extinguish such Nazi horrors? (And besides, even you are qualifying your statement with "I-believe"s and "I-think"s.) No, I think I'll let my question stand, and I'll be the judge of whether or not it's been answered (the wild presumptions of others notwithstanding), thanks.

It's good for this person if this one person - and even perhaps some others - is/are indeed able to forgive and be so forbearing, but that really doesn't mitigate the horrors that took place at the hands of the SS, or cancel the necessity of bringing members of the SS to justice, however old they are now or wherever they may be. It just doesn't.

Sure, must make them so satisfied to go after a book keeper. Next week its the maid's turn. Then just to keep everything going I'm sure their children knew about it and didnt complain, off to the gallows with them also.

[SheungWan]

I agree. Apart from the genuine survivors, he was really just there for the right wing Israelis to deflect their own issues at. Maybe they shd prosecute the train drivers who took the jews to the camp and whilst they are at it the signalmen too

It would appear that some people are deliberately deaf to the evidence that he was a volunteer member of the SS and what his 'bookkeeping' entailed. In fact even though he pleaded guilty, such commentators would like to give him a free pass. Maybe, like Le Pen, they would like this period pushed aside as a 'detail of history'.

riti

Yeap. You can't help but wonder, if they were survivors of the camps, or lost a mother or father or other family member in the camps, would they be as blasé. I doubt it. You see the same phenomenon WRT the Hiroshima and Nagasaki critics. Easy to say the invasion should've gone ahead instead of the bombs when you weren't a veteran of the South Pacific landings at places like Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa and have utterly no awareness of what "Downfall" would've meant for your chances of surviving the war (or even for expected Japanese casualties in an invasion). Freedom of speech does not imply freedom from ignorance. And it's very fashionable to be forgetful and above all tolerant of history's worst atrocities (except of course anything alleged against the U.S.).

I believe one of his accusers was in court for proceedings and bore no hatred towards him, actually I think she hoped he got off.

So that answers your question

ONE advocate for mitigation (that you're apparently not even sure of) vs hundreds of thousands (MILLIONS if you count all the camps) of camp dead!! You can't possibly be serious. Are you suggesting this one person can/could speak for all the victims of Auschwitz, OR all the millions that had to die to extinguish such Nazi horrors? (And besides, even you are qualifying your statement with "I-believe"s and "I-think"s.) No, I think I'll let my question stand, and I'll be the judge of whether or not it's been answered (the wild presumptions of others notwithstanding), thanks.

It's good for this person if this one person - and even perhaps some others - is/are indeed able to forgive and be so forbearing, but that really doesn't mitigate the horrors that took place at the hands of the SS, or cancel the necessity of bringing members of the SS to justice, however old they are now or wherever they may be. It just doesn't.

Sure, must make them so satisfied to go after a book keeper. Next week its the maid's turn. Then just to keep everything going I'm sure their children knew about it and didnt complain, off to the gallows with them also.

It would appear that even after being informed more than once (see previous contributions) that this person wasn't just a plain old 'bookkeeper, you persist in repeating the same nonsense. Classic tactics from the Holocaust Denial fraternity who are forever wanting to kick this history into the long grass.

[eliotness]

After the "night of the long knives" no one in Nazi Germany could have been unaware of what the SS was about. Sure many thousands of Germans and non-Germans joined the Waffen SS to fight against the threat (as they saw it) of communism. Some of those men fought with extreme valour, brutal, misguided, but valour nevertheless. This case is very different, he "hid" in the safety of a death camp, watching and helping hundreds of thousands to die. I can't understand how Mossad let him live to a very ripe old age.