Bangkok University - Life Of Thai Students

[jumnien]

I've been married to women who attended college in the USA and now married to a woman who attended a college in Thailand. I far prefer the later. She is far more practical, kind, resourceful, good-natured, adaptable, business-minded, and spiritually-centered. When we first started dating I asked her about her experiences smoking pot, taking valium, qualludes, speed, cocaine, LSD, opiates, etc. She had no experience in these matters. My first wife, like most university students in the US, were far more familiar with the Physicians Desk Reference than their supposed studies. That said, go ahead and marry a foreign university graduated farang, it's your life!

[wintermute]

Big Projects in most of the world and practically all Asian countries are run by those companies, its not just Thailand. And just because they are European it doesn’t mean that all the engineers are.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now China all have their own heavy industries and infrastructure companies. It was a combination of Mitsubishi industries and a few Japanese conglomerates that built most of Japan's modern buildings and transportation system. Mitsubishi actually builds stuff in Europe these days..not the other way around. Thailand relies heavily on foreign infrastructure construction whether it's asian or european companies.

[kmart]

This is probably taking it to extremes, but I have noticed that when ever I make a transaction in a shop the shop keeper always uses a calculator to work out the price and change, no matter what the sum, even if its just two items at 100 baht each. Often they repeat the calculation more than once. Even if I say ‘song loy’ they ignore me and use the calculator. It may be completely innocent in that they may be simply showing me that they aren’t ripping me off, but I do wonder.

I have also noticed when working abroad that I hardly ever come across Thais in engineering jobs. There are plenty of Philipino and Indians etc, but I rarely come across Thais, other than welders and the like. Once again there may be reasons for this, maybe I just happen to be in non Thai locations and positions, but I do wonder.

It’s easy to be judgmental and criticize.

Thai pipe-fitters and welders are in great demand at most pipeline construction sites around the world. They are very skillful and good, diligent workers. At higher level jobs though, lack of English skills holds them back, which is a real shame.

[DeathbyDurian]

My girlfriend just recently finished her degree at a university here in Bangkok.

I remmember a while back she was having trouble studying for an English exam she was going to take so I decided to look at the class materials and study aids she was given to see what the problem was (She can speak/read/write really good English).

I was taken aback at how many spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes and general nonsense these 'couse materials' had. There was a reading comprehension section that even I had trouble doing - and I have a freaking degree in writing! How they expected ESL students to answer these questions was beyond me.

I asked her "What happens if you fail the test again?" (It was about to be her 3rd time)

Her response: "I just pay 3000B and they pass me"

No wonder I hear reports that many receptionist/front desk positions require a masters to get hired...

[PeaceBlondie]

We live in a country which has always been ruled by the elites, who could send their children abroad, or have tutors shipped in (Anna Leonowens). However, if even postgraduate degrees at Chula and Ramkampaeng and CMU don't represent mastery of a subject, is it any wonder that Thailand staggers its way into the late 20th century without having a skilled work force? If they cannot learn English (and I know that only 1% of them do), how are they going to compete in a global economy, using a language understood only by their fellow, semi-illiterate Thais? Therein lies some of the appeal of an isolationist version of self-sufficient economy: we can't compete in the real world.

[nakhonsi sean]

I studied Thai and ecology for a year as an exchange student at Chula about 15 years ago. I had the misfortune of sharing a room in the dorms for a month with three third year engineering students. Their study skills and course work amazed me. They would spend twelve hours a day memmorising their one and only text book for that year. As long as they could regurgitate what they had read they passed their year. When talking to them, they seemed to have no understanding of the material they were studying! (I presume some of them were employed to build the new airport!)

While studying, I seemed to be in constant arguments with the Thai lecturers. I was berated several times for asking questions during lectures and giving an opposing opinion. (Difficult not to speak up when you know someone is factually incorrect.) I think I was not a popular chap at the place! But the arguments with the faculty became the only enjoyable interactions with the university!

Having sat in lectures and talked to students while studying in Thailand I am left with a very low opinion regarding Thai universities. They seem to churn out graduates who know little or nothing of their subject.

I hope the new English programmes at the universities improve on this sad state of affairs.

[DirkGently]

I'm glad it's not just me that sees this everywhere in Thailand. First off I think the cheating culture is the root cause. I'm sure that when Thais discovered 'cut and paste' their grades must have shot up.

My girlfriend attends university and is constantly moaning about the other members of her team. They are more than happy to sit back and let one dilligent member do the work and just hand in the same. Her friends come over to 'help' with projects. This help consists of sitting there as my gf does the work and then plugging in their USB's

The second flaw, as I see it, is that the school materials are rubbish. Especially the English ones. A worried neighbour once asked for some help as her grammar homework was confusing her. It was a book of multiple choice (where would they be without multiple choice) and page after page after page was full of errors. In many cases there was NO right answer. Just gibberish. How can you learn from that?

I do pity them in many ways. It must be a huge shock when they attend a university somewhere in the real world.

[ThaiGoon]

they seemed to have no understanding of the material they were studying!

How did you know that the engineering students didn't have real understanding of their subject when your major was Thai and Ecology?

[wintermute]

We live in a country which has always been ruled by the elites, who could send their children abroad, or have tutors shipped in (Anna Leonowens). However, if even postgraduate degrees at Chula and Ramkampaeng and CMU don't represent mastery of a subject, is it any wonder that Thailand staggers its way into the late 20th century without having a skilled work force?

Thailand is NOT going to be able to compete with most of the advanced asian nations much less the rest of the world. The NE Asian countries would eat them alive in just about every field.

If they cannot learn English (and I know that only 1% of them do),

What's worse is that the ones who know english to any level are usually educated abroad and find better opportunities abroad. There is a known brain drain in Thailand..the best usually filter out to the more affluent asian nations or to the U.S.

how are they going to compete in a global economy, using a language understood only by their fellow, semi-illiterate Thais? Therein lies some of the appeal of an isolationist version of self-sufficient economy: we can't compete in the real world.

I had a feeling early on that this is what it's all about. I think the authority figures see that Thailand's future competitiveness is at stake so they are battening down the hatches while they can. They see domestic foreign investment as a competitive threat in usurping the status quo because foreign companies are better managed and produce better products.

Just look at how many foreign retailers have come in and become successful. The only reason these companies are joint ventures with Thai companies is because they have to be. If you examine the joint corporations out there..sino-thai, italian-thai, tesco-lotus, etc.. who does the actual technical and business side of the work? It's almost always the foreign part of the ownership.The thai part is mainly there to clear the legal paperwork and collect a percentage because it's their country.

This is a huge wasted opportunity for Thailand because they could be learning invaluable expertise from these foreign companies. Instead there seems to be little to no interest in this type of human resource development. The rich are content in investing in whatever makes them a buck the poor are satisfied with catching the crumbs that fall down to them.

Just remember that Thailand's exports are 60% of its GDP in mostly low tech/high labor manufacture, their future is very much uncertain. They may soon find themselves without any comparative advantage at all except as a holiday destination or real estate investment vehicle.

Edited February 19, 2007 by wintermute

[ThaiGoon]

I do pity them in many ways. It must be a huge shock when they attend a university somewhere in the real world.

Most Thai grad students in the US who did their undergrad in Thailand have done really well in top US universities. Just to let you know.

[nakhonsi sean]

ThaiGoon Posted Today, 2007-02-19 13:10:34

QUOTE(nakhonsi sean @ 2007-02-19 13:00:46) *

they seemed to have no understanding of the material they were studying!

How did you know that the engineering students didn't have real understanding of their subject when your major was Thai and Ecology?

From talking to them! Not only them, but the majority of students I came across from many discaplines. I also have a large and wealthy Thai family, many of them have studied at Chula and Thammasat, the same can be said for the majority of them. The ones that studied in the UK, US or Aus., seem to be much more knowledgable in their subjects.

[ThaiGoon]

ThaiGoon Posted Today, 2007-02-19 13:10:34

QUOTE(nakhonsi sean @ 2007-02-19 13:00:46) *

they seemed to have no understanding of the material they were studying!

How did you know that the engineering students didn't have real understanding of their subject when your major was Thai and Ecology?

From talking to them! Not only them, but the majority of students I came across from many discaplines. I also have a large and wealthy Thai family, many of them have studied at Chula and Thammasat, the same can be said for the majority of them. The ones that studied in the UK, US or Aus., seem to be much more knowledgable in their subjects.

I guess you couldn't grasp the point of my question. Let me ask you again. How could you understand what the engineering students were talking about when you yourself had no knowledge whatsoever in the subject? You majored in Thai and Ecology for crying out loud. If they talked to you about Calculus, would you have understood?

Besides in what lagunage were you talking to them anyway? Thai? You are fluent in Thai? Really? English? Nice. If they were fluent in English, doesn't that already contradict what all farang naysayers and doom mongers have been spouting in this thread?

[nakhonsi sean]

ThaiGoon Posted Today, 2007-02-19 13:44:57

I guess you couldn't grasp the point of my question. Let me ask you again. How could you understand what the engineering students were talking about when you yourself had no knowledge whatsoever in the subject? You majored in Thai and Ecology for crying out loud. If they talked to you about Calculus, would you have understood?

Besides in what lagunage were you talking to them anyway? Thai? You are fluent in Thai? Really? English? Nice. If they were fluent in English, doesn't that already contradict what all farang naysayers and doom mongers have been spouting in this thread?

My dear sir, the point of your question was quite clear and I answered it. Yes I was talking in Thai. Am I fluent in

Thai, no but nearly. I have a degree in the subject and went to school here for 5 years in the seventies. My mother is Thai. I have been living here for thirty years on and off.

It does not take a genius to tell if someone knows what they are talking about.

The tone of your post was also most offensive!

[ThaiGoon]

My dear sir, the point of your question was quite clear and I answered it. Yes I was talking in Thai. Am I fluent in

Thai, no but nearly. I have a degree in the subject and went to school here for 5 years in the seventies. My mother is Thai. I have been living here for thirty years on and off.

It does not take a genius to tell if someone knows what they are talking about.

The tone of your post was also most offensive!

Nice to know that you are using what you experienced back in the 70's to judge Thai students of today.

[nakhonsi sean]

ThaiGoon Posted Today, 2007-02-19 14:06:44

Nice to know that you are using what you experienced back in the 70's to judge Thai students of today.

Not the 70's, the 90's on. I am in constant contact with Thai students. Both in and out of my family. I am not a 'naysayer' or 'doom monger'. I believe that the country has a bright future. However, it also has some serious educational problems right now! When you walk into a school English department and are faced with 20 - 30 teachers who all majored in English, many to MA level, and have to speak Thai, you know there is a problem. Thailand will get its problems sorted. How long will it take? Who knows?

[crazydiamond]

Thanks for your concern over Thai students here. Last time I checked out Thai performance on the latest Math Olympiad. Thai were placed 15th out of over 90 countries. See http://imo2006.dmfa.si/results_ctd.html - Guess you guys never share a room with those boys.

[wintermute]

Thanks for your concern over Thai students here. Last time I checked out Thai performance on the latest Math Olympiad. Thai were placed 15th out of over 90 countries. See http://imo2006.dmfa.si/results_ctd.html - Guess you guys never share a room with those boys.

So what? That's for high school students who have learned math to a certain level..which is about the calculus/trig level. You have countries like Moldova (which was a wartorn hellhole for over a decadel) and Romania scoring higher..woopty doo. To produce skilled expertise in engineering and science to build infrastructure or become technically competitive requires a higher level of learning that goes way beyond a math olympiad. I don't think anyone ever said that the raw human ability wasn't there. Any country has potential the issue is that higher education in Thailand is woefully inadequate to harness this potential and a lot of it is due in part to culture.

Edited February 19, 2007 by wintermute

[jamman]

Thanks for your concern over Thai students here. Last time I checked out Thai performance on the latest Math Olympiad. Thai were placed 15th out of over 90 countries. See http://imo2006.dmfa.si/results_ctd.html - Guess you guys never share a room with those boys.

So what? That's for high school students who have learned math to a certain level..which is about the calculus/trig level. You have countries like Moldova (which was a wartorn hellhole for over a decadel) and Romania scoring higher..woopty doo. To produce skilled expertise in engineering and science to build infrastructure or become technically competitive requires a higher level of learning that goes way beyond a math olympiad. I don't think anyone ever said that the raw human ability wasn't there. Any country has potential the issue is that higher education in Thailand is woefully inadequate to harness this potential and a lot of it is due in part to culture.

Dam, dude. You have the finger of E.T. - spot on and on fire.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[ThaiGoon]

So what? That's for high school students who have learned math to a certain level..which is about the calculus/trig level. You have countries like Moldova (which was a wartorn hellhole for over a decadel) and Romania scoring higher..woopty doo. To produce skilled expertise in engineering and science to build infrastructure or become technically competitive requires a higher level of learning that goes way beyond a math olympiad. I don't think anyone ever said that the raw human ability wasn't there. Any country has potential the issue is that higher education in Thailand is woefully inadequate to harness this potential and a lot of it is due in part to culture.

Weren't you one of those who made a mockery of IBM's attempt to establish an IT learning center in Thailand? That was a nice attempt to imporve the quality of higher education here, wasn't it? If you genuinely cared about Thailand and wanted Thailand to be better, then why did you criticize both the current state of education system and the attempts to improve it?

Face it, you are just a sad farang parasite loser in Thailand who has nothing better to do in your life than just bash Thailand in every issue on the internet....and yet still has to live in Thailand because you can't afford to live in your homecountry.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[madjbs]

Thai Goon is right; this forum is like a rampant breeding ground for these types of people. So much so allot of the threads are becoming boringly painful to read. I can’t understand why people just love to complain complain complain, maybe it helps them feel better about their already inadequate boring lives.

Jake

[kmart]

Thai Goon is right; this forum is like a rampant breeding ground for these types of people. So much so allot of the threads are becoming boringly painful to read. I can’t understand why people just love to complain complain complain, maybe it helps them feel better about their already inadequate boring lives.

Jake

TV is a conduit for frustration. At least it keeps misanthropic types (like myself ) off the streets...?

[pantarei]

I do pity them in many ways. It must be a huge shock when they attend a university somewhere in the real world.

Most Thai grad students in the US who did their undergrad in Thailand have done really well in top US universities. Just to let you know.

The issue is not if children of rich Thai parents can attend American universities and excel in their field of study. The issue is – if Jabir Murat were born in Issan, would his son (Ferid Murat, Nobel Prize laureat in Physiology and Medicine, 1998) been given the necessary education and opportunities to become a Nobel Prize winner???

Excerpts from Ferid Murad’s bio

My father, Jabir Murat Ejupi, was born in Albania in 1892 and was the oldest of four children. His mother died when he was 13 years old. He and his family were shepherds and he subsequently ran away from home to sell candy in the Balkan countries as a teenager for several years. Although he had less than a year of education, he learned to speak seven languages before he died at the age of 84 in 1976. He met a group of other teenagers in Austria and they immigrated to the United States...........

My mother, Henrietta Josephine Bowman, was born in 1918 in Alton, Illinois ......My mother went to grade school for several years before she too quit to help her mother and younger siblings while her mother and two older sisters went to work.......

The childhood poverty of both my parents and their minimal education did much to influence me and my two younger brothers in our education and career choices. One brother became a dentist and the other a professor of anthropology with a PhD degree......

Since my parents couldn't afford to help me with my college costs, I looked for a school that offered the best scholarship. I considered the military programs at the Naval Academy and Westpoint, but I knew I wouldn't have received the biology training for medical school since these were primarily engineering programs with a requisite four years of military duty afterwards. I competed successfully for a Rector Scholarship at DePauw University in Greencastle, Indiana, a small and excellent liberal arts university and went there from 1954 to 1958 on a tuition scholarship...............

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicin...ad-autobio.html

PS if you care so much about Thailand, why don’t you tutor some children in English, math, etc. rather than spending time posting messages that have no impact whatsoever on improving the life of underprivileged children in your country?

BTW, my posting average is a whopping 0.05 per day. < talk is cheap>

[ThaiGoon]

PS if you care so much about Thailand, why don’t you tutor some children in English, math, etc. rather than spending time posting messages that have no impact whatsoever on improving the life of underprivileged children in your country?

BTW, my posting average is a whopping 0.05 per day. < talk is cheap>

Because I'm still studying in the US. And I also do tutor kids whose parents are friends of my parents when I go home in the summer. I teach them English, Math and Physics.

By the way, all your suggestive crap about underprivileged kids in Thailand got basically no chances to better their lives is just a bunch of ....crap. I've seen a lot of Thai students who came from struggling families go to top American colleges and do really well. How did they do it? They got scholarships from the government. Every year, since King Rama V era, the Thai governemnt has been granting thousands of schoalrships to qualified Thai students to study abroad. These Thai students come from all over the country, Isarn, North and South. It doesn't matter if your family is rich or poor. As long as you are a good student, you get a chance. I personally believe that the students themselves and the encouragement from their families are much more important for them to succeed in school than the quality of the teachers. Any parent who blames the school or teachers for his/her kids' failure only needs to take a look at him/herself. Everything starts at home.

And I don't know why you have to tell me about your posting average since my previous post was aimed at wintermute not you. I guess what I said hit home ehh?

[Diablo Bob]

Just an opinion.......

A critical component of the debate that seems to have been lost in the arguments is, What is the purpose and goal of the educational system in Thailand?

Is the purpose to educate students in preparation to continuing their education in a foreign country? NO

Is the goal to educate engineering students to compete in an international arena? NO

Is this wrong? NO

Why? (now here is where my opinion really comes in to play) The goal of ANY engineering school should be to educate the student in the knowledge of how systems work (mechanical, electrical etc.) AND give them the ability to solve problems and implement solutions within the constraints of the AVAILABLE local technology.

What this means is that engineers in Europe and North America are exposed as part of their eduction process to solutions which would never work in lets say India, but are everyday solutions in Billings Montana! Does this make the Western educated engineer better? NO, just more up to date.

Example: Until recently, I had on staff a brilliant engineer from Cambridge Mass, who was able to solve ###### near any mechanical problem, unfortunately every solution required an electrical component (sender, valve etc.), but the solution would work! Unfortunately, we are working in an area of the world with maybe 6 hours/day of eratic electrical power. His eductation while being more advanced was inferior to the engineers from India and Pakistan who are taught in straight mechanical solutions with only a brief introduction to electro/mechanical solutions.

When you consider where Thailand was thirty years ago and where they are today, Thailand has done an admirable job. Their engineers have been given the proper tools by the eduction system for where the system is today. Advancements will come as progress is made in infrastructure, something that doesn't happen overnight.

The Thai engineers educated in the West will become the icing on the cake, they will become the managing directors who will expose Thailand to innovative solutions available from the West. This isn't a process that would/could happen overnight.

Just my opinion.

[Payboy]

whenever we have a vacancy in the office, i ask my staff to contact applicants by phone and speak to them in english. its a great way to short-list; about 75-80% of applicants dont show up for the interview appointment then.

sadly, from the ones that show up about 50% have little knowledge of the subjects that they claim to have majored in - particularly if they are from the private universities.

here, quality education (including english language skills) is a privilege of the closely knit hi-so clans. after all, keeping the masses illiterate and unskilled helps them run sweatshops at lowly wages.

[kmart]

whenever we have a vacancy in the office, i ask my staff to contact applicants by phone and speak to them in english. its a great way to short-list; about 75-80% of applicants dont show up for the interview appointment then.

sadly, from the ones that show up about 50% have little knowledge of the subjects that they claim to have majored in - particularly if they are from the private universities.

here, quality education (including english language skills) is a privilege of the closely knit hi-so clans. after all, keeping the masses illiterate and unskilled helps them run sweatshops at lowly wages.

It concerns me that the clans that control Thailand are so desperate to cling to power that they'd rather opt out of the world economy with some dippy "sufficiency economy" theory, rather than bring education standards up to modern requirements. Are they that selfish....?

[jbsears]

From my personal observations, I feel the problem is more due to the culture putting importance on fun. Students don't want to do anything if it is not fun. To them school is not fun.

[Gumballl]

Being a university grad myself, I can relate to the ones that seek out the location of the next keg party more so than when their next calculus exam takes place. A higher education is nice, and sometimes important. But there are many who have succeeded without a formal education. There are also many who have "purchased" their university degrees.

My question to everyone is... so what?. Does the notion that somebody was able to purchase their degrees make you feel inadequate? Do you feel that Thai universities are themselves less educational than those in Europe or America? Once again, so what?

One's ability to succeed in life matters not so much with the credentials they carry, but with what they can do. Most of my professional experience and knowledge of the "trivial" has been learnt from the years before and after I graduated from the uni.

Probably the more important question that should be asked is why people must struggle so hard in life, when the ultimate and known outcome is death. Just enjoy your life. Some take this advice earlier in life than others. Don't bash the young ones who embrace this notion. Perhaps they already have a plan for the future, or perhaps they do not care about it. Either way, everyone, rich or poor, educated or not, will have the same fate.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Gumballl

[jbsears]

My question to everyone is... so what?. Does the notion that somebody was able to purchase their degrees make you feel inadequate?

Its not the point of making someone feel inadequate; its the point of belittling others' degrees. If some are able to purchase degrees from universities and the public is aware of this, then those that actually worked hard and earned their degrees have a degree that is worth less. A degree is an investment and people that cheat and buy their degrees decrease the value of the hardworker's investment.

[wintermute]

Because I'm still studying in the US. And I also do tutor kids whose parents are friends of my parents when I go home in the summer. I teach them English, Math and Physics.

Let me get this straight you constantly rant and rave about foreigners living in Thailand but it turns out you're studying in the U.S.? Have you heard the saying..a person who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones. How about I make you a deal you get out of my country i'll get out of yours...see how absurd your comments are now?

By the way, all your suggestive crap about underprivileged kids in Thailand got basically no chances to better their lives is just a bunch of ....crap. I've seen a lot of Thai students who came from struggling families go to top American colleges and do really well.

Every single statistic i've seen on Thailand shows that there is an enormous wealth gap in the country. The rich elite constitute 1% and own much of the wealth. Did you know the majority of the population in Thailand are farmers (55-60%) and they only contribute a tiny 9% to the overall GDP? That's sad and it just illustrates that there are millions of people living in poverty. I have travelled all over Thailand and have seen it first hand. You can't B.S. me on this.

How did they do it? They got scholarships from the government. Every year, since King Rama V era, the Thai governemnt has been granting thousands of schoalrships to qualified Thai students to study abroad.

Unfortunately there's very few of these scholarships available in Thailand. For every program that works in Thailand there are dozens more that are accused of corruption where funds are lost to fraud or stolen before they ever get to the needy. Also, quite a few of the ones that allow Thai students to study abroad are actually financed in part by foreign nations that you seem to despise so much. I know for a fact that Singapore has a program that gives ASEAN students scholarships to their top universities as does Australia and the U.S.

Just going by the tone of your posts i'd guess that you are most likely a middle/hi-so thai kid who has grown up in relative privilege in Bangkok. I see your type everyday..you preach your hate on foreigners but you readily consume the pop culture and negative aspects of those you despise. You talk about how great Thailand is but your ilk is the first to trample on the rights of your own people with your egocentric upbringing and ill gotten family wealth. I don't respect people like you at all. You have no right to criticize foreigners living in your country or anywhere else. THere is such a thing as hypocrisy and you are just the usual example of it in Thailand.

Edited February 20, 2007 by wintermute