Retirement: Thailand vs Spain

[Linzz]

About to do a survey Of Lagos Algarve for a move,yep 'plane tix booked. Trawled around the costas couple of years ago looking for alternative to life in Thailand and yes beats here by a mile,age and infirmity will dominate the thinking.

Is cheaper Spain,look at supermercado pricing,renting cheaper. just have to say goodbye to Thai long time GF was thinking of marrying,but would miss her family too much.

Here 7 years ,Goa 5 years ,just want to get nearer home

Any comments on Goa? and it's Spanish or Portuguese influence?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Linzz

[goreme]

"Prisons for corrupt officials etc. etc." what country is that?

Not Thailand - if you have connections and Money you go free ... Not in a civilized country thats not a banana republic ...

Yes, that rarely happens in developed countries especially the US </sarcasm>

[giddyup]

About to do a survey Of Lagos Algarve for a move,yep 'plane tix booked. Trawled around the costas couple of years ago looking for alternative to life in Thailand and yes beats here by a mile,age and infirmity will dominate the thinking.

Is cheaper Spain,look at supermercado pricing,renting cheaper. just have to say goodbye to Thai long time GF was thinking of marrying,but would miss her family too much.

Here 7 years ,Goa 5 years ,just want to get nearer home

Any comments on Goa? and it's Spanish or Portuguese influence?

They burnt any witches at the stake there recently?

[Naam]

About to do a survey Of Lagos Algarve for a move,yep 'plane tix booked. Trawled around the costas couple of years ago looking for alternative to life in Thailand and yes beats here by a mile,age and infirmity will dominate the thinking.

Is cheaper Spain,look at supermercado pricing,renting cheaper. just have to say goodbye to Thai long time GF was thinking of marrying,but would miss her family too much.

Here 7 years ,Goa 5 years ,just want to get nearer home

Any comments on Goa? and it's Spanish or Portuguese influence?

Portuguese and problems with retiree visa.

[loppylugs1]

About to do a survey Of Lagos Algarve for a move,yep 'plane tix booked. Trawled around the costas couple of years ago looking for alternative to life in Thailand and yes beats here by a mile,age and infirmity will dominate the thinking.

Is cheaper Spain,look at supermercado pricing,renting cheaper. just have to say goodbye to Thai long time GF was thinking of marrying,but would miss her family too much.

Here 7 years ,Goa 5 years ,just want to get nearer home

Any comments on Goa? and it's Spanish or Portuguese influence?

Only stay well away,was good ,now awful. Goans still think above common Indians,but all washed up now by Dehli

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Home » Moving to Portugal » Tax regime for non-habitual residents

Tax regime for non-habitual residents

Competitive advantages:

For a period of 10 years, taxation related to IRS (personal income tax) on labour income in Portugal is at a fixed rate of 20%

No double taxation for pensions or for employment and self-employment income obtained abroad

How can you acquire Non-Habitual Resident Status?

Having not been a resident in Portugal for the last 5 years;

Register at the local tax office as a tax resident in Portugal (to do so you must have remained in Portugal for more than 183 consecutive or non-consecutive days, or having remained for less time, having, at 31st December of that year, a home in such conditions that would lead to the assumption that it is intended to be kept and occupied as your habitual residence);

Request that the status of Non-Habitual Resident be attributed at the time of registering as a tax resident in Portugal, or by 31st March of the year following that in which you become a resident in Portugal.

Once Non-Habitual Resident Status has been obtained, what is the taxation rate and incidence applicable to domestic source income?

In the case of employment or self-employment, the applicable taxation rate is 20% (with an additional 3.5% surcharge in 2015).

Registration as a Non-Habitual Resident confers the right to be taxed as such for a period of 10 years as from the year of registering as a tax resident in Portuguese territory.

Once Non-Habitual Resident Status has been obtained, in which cases is foreign income obtained by Non-Habitual Residents in Portugal exempt from taxation?

In the case of pensioners and retired people when:

Income is taxed in the source State, in accordance with the convention to eliminate double taxation, signed by Portugal and that State; or

Income is not considered to have been obtained through a Portuguese source, according to the criteria provided for in the IRS Code (personal income tax).

In the case of income derived from employment, when:

Income is taxed in the State of origin, in accordance with the convention to eliminate double taxation, signed by Portugal and that State; or

That income is taxed in another State with which Portugal has not signed any convention to eliminate double taxation, as long as the income is not considered to have been obtained in Portuguese territory, in accordance with the criteria in article 18 of the IRS Code (personal income tax);

In the case of income from self-employment (through the provision of services of a high added value, of a scientific, artistic or technical nature, or through intellectual or industrial property, investment income, rental income, capital gains income or other increases in equity), when:

The income may be taxed in the source country, territory or region, in accordance with the convention to eliminate double taxation, or;

When no convention to eliminate double taxation has been signed, the OECD model convention may be applied (taking into consideration the observations and reservations made by Portugal) and as long as the source country, territory or region does not have a privileged tax regime, and as long as the income is not considered to have been obtained in Portuguese territory, in accordance with the criteria in article 18 of the IRS (personal income tax).

THIS INFORMATION IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CONSULTING THE APPLICABLE LEGISLATION

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Edited August 10, 2015 by loppylugs1

[loppylugs1]

The actual tax in Spain is not a million miles off that of the UK it is the first years demand,that of everything gross is taxed then set aside on the following years tax,seems a lottery if you are ever going to get it back,but Portugal seems a better bet as an alternative to Spain and ultimately Thailand...beam me up Scotty

[medina21]

Loppylugs1,

Your facts on Spain are wrong.

Income tax is considerably higher than in the UK. I know, because I've paid it. Also, they have a wealth tax.

Income tax is also much higher in Portugal. In addition Portugal has a 'solidarity tax' -in addition to income tax- of 3.5% on income over 6790 euros, and interest from accounts in the Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Isle of Man is taxed at 35%. The fact that The Channel Islands and the IOM report your account to the Portuguese every year, doesn't stop the Portuguese revenue treating you like a criminal.

It's important to know the facts before taking up tax residency in another country, particularly the bankrupt ones of the Med. I guarantee you that the tax you pay will increase in Portugal and Spain after the elections later this year. I'd love to be wrong, but when you look at the debt profile of these countries, the politicos will do what they always do. They'll raid our pockets again. I think I'm correct in saying that private and public debt in Portugal is 350% of GDP. Makes Greece look like a good pupil

Spain is completely over-governed with layer upon layer of administration: central, regional, sub regional, sub-sub regional, and town halls. This is a monstrous waste of money. Taxpayer's money. It's also got a serious corruption problem. The PP is up to its ears in corruption, as is the Junta de Andalusia (PSOE). There are many other cases too. Mallorca has always been run like a family biz by the party in power.

These are wonderful places to live, but the sangria,sardines and sunshine comes at a price. For me, moving to Spain would more than double the percentage of gross income lost to tax ( 14.69% in the UK against 33% in España).

Que mierda, death and taxes

[jpinx]

The tax debate would probably be coloured by where your income comes from. If it is UK income, then you may well be able to maintain UK tax residency.

[medina21]

Over 183 days, you become a tax resident.

[loppylugs1]

Loppylugs1,

Your facts on Spain are wrong.

Income tax is considerably higher than in the UK. I know, because I've paid it. Also, they have a wealth tax.

Income tax is also much higher in Portugal. In addition Portugal has a 'solidarity tax' -in addition to income tax- of 3.5% on income over 6790 euros, and interest from accounts in the Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Isle of Man is taxed at 35%. The fact that The Channel Islands and the IOM report your account to the Portuguese every year, doesn't stop the Portuguese revenue treating you like a criminal.

It's important to know the facts before taking up tax residency in another country, particularly the bankrupt ones of the Med. I guarantee you that the tax you pay will increase in Portugal and Spain after the elections later this year. I'd love to be wrong, but when you look at the debt profile of these countries, the politicos will do what they always do. They'll raid our pockets again. I think I'm correct in saying that private and public debt in Portugal is 350% of GDP. Makes Greece look like a good pupil

Spain is completely over-governed with layer upon layer of administration: central, regional, sub regional, sub-sub regional, and town halls. This is a monstrous waste of money. Taxpayer's money. It's also got a serious corruption problem. The PP is up to its ears in corruption, as is the Junta de Andalusia (PSOE). There are many other cases too. Mallorca has always been run like a family biz by the party in power.

These are wonderful places to live, but the sangria,sardines and sunshine comes at a price. For me, moving to Spain would more than double the percentage of gross income lost to tax ( 14.69% in the UK against 33% in España).

Que mierda, death and taxes

All I can do is quote figures that are published I do look at alternative web sites Britishexpat for one. Yes I know of all the bad tidings that flow ,

[jpinx]

Over 183 days, you become a tax resident.

I think you can elect

[TIMMMMM]

Just don't stay there more than 182 days. That's the only election you can make to avoid being taxed by Spain Tax Office.

[jpinx]

if you pay UK tax on your state pension, does that mean the Spanish will tax it again?

[medina21]

The UK has a tax treaty with Spain. This addresses the question of double taxation. However, if the tax burden on your UK sourced income is higher in Spain, your obligation in Spain will be reduced by the tax already paid in the UK.

[jpinx]

.....and vice-versa?

[lazygourmet]

About to do a survey Of Lagos Algarve for a move,yep 'plane tix booked. Trawled around the costas couple of years ago looking for alternative to life in Thailand and yes beats here by a mile,age and infirmity will dominate the thinking.

Is cheaper Spain,look at supermercado pricing,renting cheaper. just have to say goodbye to Thai long time GF was thinking of marrying,but would miss her family too much.

Here 7 years ,Goa 5 years ,just want to get nearer home

Any comments on Goa? and it's Spanish or Portuguese influence?

Portuguese and problems with retiree visa.

Much more a former Israeli soldiers "Flipping Out"'s enclave, nowadays...

[slerickson]

Just read an article in the NY Times about Spanish economy. Sounded dire and depressing. I wonder where the economy and crime rate will go from here?

[loppylugs1]

Looking at the tax rates introduced in Portugal,was quoted as the perfect place for ex pats,but these rates will do damage...

...but I am getting seriously fed up with Thailand and need out,just have to see if I can bite the bullet. It sure will make expats leave there tho

Edited August 11, 2015 by loppylugs1

[Anthony5]

Loppylugs1,

Your facts on Spain are wrong.

Income tax is considerably higher than in the UK. I know, because I've paid it. Also, they have a wealth tax.

Income tax is also much higher in Portugal. In addition Portugal has a 'solidarity tax' -in addition to income tax- of 3.5% on income over 6790 euros, and interest from accounts in the Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Isle of Man is taxed at 35%. The fact that The Channel Islands and the IOM report your account to the Portuguese every year, doesn't stop the Portuguese revenue treating you like a criminal.

It's important to know the facts before taking up tax residency in another country, particularly the bankrupt ones of the Med. I guarantee you that the tax you pay will increase in Portugal and Spain after the elections later this year. I'd love to be wrong, but when you look at the debt profile of these countries, the politicos will do what they always do. They'll raid our pockets again. I think I'm correct in saying that private and public debt in Portugal is 350% of GDP. Makes Greece look like a good pupil

Spain is completely over-governed with layer upon layer of administration: central, regional, sub regional, sub-sub regional, and town halls. This is a monstrous waste of money. Taxpayer's money. It's also got a serious corruption problem. The PP is up to its ears in corruption, as is the Junta de Andalusia (PSOE). There are many other cases too. Mallorca has always been run like a family biz by the party in power.

These are wonderful places to live, but the sangria,sardines and sunshine comes at a price. For me, moving to Spain would more than double the percentage of gross income lost to tax ( 14.69% in the UK against 33% in España).

Que mierda, death and taxes

Since a EU citizen doesn't need a visa for Spain, how they ever gonna proof how many days you were in Spain?

[MaeJoMTB]

Since a EU citizen doesn't need a visa for Spain, how they ever gonna proof how many days you were in Spain?

Lots of guys on this forum seem to like writing letters to their local authorities telling them where they are, how long they have been there, and what they are doing.

Take a look at the pensions thread if you don't believe me, it's incredible, the level of stupidity some old guys ......

"Dear Sir,

I am moving to Thailand forever next week, please freeze my pension and cancel my NHS entitlement forthwith ......."

[sammygood]

spain: can buy land, can own car/house, can work, can start business without all the crap

damn, what am I still doing here

[medina21]

As an EU citizen, in theory, you could stay in Spain indefinitely. But don't have anything registered in your name: telephone, internet, gas, electricity and water. Also don't own a property because the consumption of gas, electricity and water can easily be checked. Another thing. Don't drive a car on UK plates for more than 6 months. The Policia Local will be aware of your presence and will impound your car if you stay longer than 6 months. This happened to a friend of mine who had a business there. So, it's possible to fly under the radar. Just be wise about it.

[loppylugs1]

Since a EU citizen doesn't need a visa for Spain, how they ever gonna proof how many days you were in Spain?

Lots of guys on this forum seem to like writing letters to their local authorities telling them where they are, how long they have been there, and what they are doing.

Take a look at the pensions thread if you don't believe me, it's incredible, the level of stupidity some old guys ......

"Dear Sir,

I am moving to Thailand forever next week, please freeze my pension and cancel my NHS entitlement forthwith ......."

They are off their rockers,truly off their rockers

......bout the car, above ,suppose you could drive it to France and return,start the clock again

[loppylugs1]

expatsforum.com seems a good starting point to asking the right Qs with people there in Portugal,or Spain,never know might pick up a casa with the expats fleeing a bad tax regime

Edited August 11, 2015 by loppylugs1

[medina21]

You don't have to be tax resident anywhere. If you are well organized and happy to move between countries, you can live a life free of income tax. Anyone for a caravan .

Re cars and Spain, just hopping over the border to France or Portugal might not work. The Spanish police are not to be messed with. However, my experience of Spanish life was in a small pueblo. If you are in a medium-sized/large town your presence will be more anonymous.

[laislica]

^^

If you have an English state pension, you are covered.

As a Thai national, your wife is only covered if she works in Spain and pays Spanish taxes.

As for when to buy, the EU is widely predicted to drop to 1.6E/GBP ...... so wait.

Not strictly correct, you are not automatically covered and there was a rule change in mid 2014.

For short visits apply for the EIHC which will give you emergency cover.

If you reside in Spain and meet the age requirement, apply for an S1 form from the UK to get full NHS cover for both you and your Thai wife.

You will need to be registered at your local town hall for which you will need proof of address (a rental contract will do), copy passports.

The Spanish Social Services will issue you with two paper forms that allow you to register at your local health clinic and be allocated a doctor.

Later on you will receive a health card which has a chip like a credit card.

Any prescriptions that the Dr. gives you are located on a central database.

You give your card to a chemist and they use it to read your prescriptions, paper prescriptions not required.

If you are not old (like me) then yes, your wife will need to work and pay taxes in Spain.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healthcareinSpain.aspx

[loppylugs1]

You don't have to be tax resident anywhere. If you are well organized and happy to move between countries, you can live a life free of income tax. Anyone for a caravan .

Re cars and Spain, just hopping over the border to France or Portugal might not work. The Spanish police are not to be messed with. However, my experience of Spanish life was in a small pueblo. If you are in a medium-sized/large town your presence will be more anonymous.

Thanks for information

Eventually ,if not sooner I want to leave Thailand and its a toss up between the two,Cyprus was an option but waned,so looks as if Portugal is the one warts and all.

Got a couple of mutts too that are tagging along,Thai GF will not stand the life IM sure so no marriage,but I just want to wake up every morning in a refreshing and stable country.

Will register,looks as no choice and as said before bite the bullet.

To purchase cars in Spain are cheap,Portugal more so , but those traffic fines are high

[medina21]

Loppylugs,

If you are heading to Spain, rent before you buy, or rent long-term. Rents are cheap. You can easily find somewhere for 400 euros per month outside the main centers/tourist spots.

Morning coffee on the terrace of my local bar, watching the world go by, is a really strong pull. Everyone says 'hi', the view of the 600-year-old church is beautiful and you can chat freely. The locals are not slow to express their disgust with those in power

[loppylugs1]

Loppylugs,

If you are heading to Spain, rent before you buy, or rent long-term. Rents are cheap. You can easily find somewhere for 400 euros per month outside the main centers/tourist spots.

Morning coffee on the terrace of my local bar, watching the world go by, is a really strong pull. Everyone says 'hi', the view of the 600-year-old church is beautiful and you can chat freely. The locals are not slow to express their disgust with those in power

Again,thanks.

Just looked up expatforum.com Portugal and seems many problems developing,rentals getting closed down because of stiff regulation/hefty fines.

you are sooooooo right 600 year built stuff,the sheer tranquility of it all,morning coffee ,smell of freshly baked bread,sounds naff I know but I miss it all so much

Believe it or not used to speak Spanish (long time ago) so all forgotten almost numo dos tres 'bout it excuse spelling.

Might have to be Spain as a starter,yes plenty of rentals there,then just take it slowly from there.

Thanks again

Just an edit. Lisbon is a expensive airport for destination,Barcelona far cheaper £414 return BKK to Barc via Oslo,booked few months ago. £25 single one way Barc >Lisbon,cheap train or bus down to Algarve

Edited August 12, 2015 by loppylugs1

[medina21]

The simple things - people saying 'buenos dias', coffee on your favorite terrace, freshly baked bread - are the things that really count. I like Thailand in many ways but what I miss terribly is the sense of community that exists in many smaller places in Europe. Asian society doesn't work like that.