Corruption vs bureaucracy

[beachproperty]

Had a discussion with another expat who's opinion is that corruption in Thailand is bad.

My response was ....which is better Corruption in Thailand or the Bureaucracy of the West?

I've lived in Thailand for over 10 years and the only corruption I've witnessed is the Police stopping the car wherein I paid "tea" money (200 baht) ...this compared to in the West where I have been pulled over for doing a few miles over the speed limit and getting a ticket for $100

As for other incidents in Thailand I have paid money (again 200-500 baht) to faciltate things..(DMV, Immigration, land office, electric co. etc)....In the West they call it "fees or taxes" and can range anywhere from hundreds of dollars to thousands OR had to wait HOURS to weeks (sometimes months) to get something done.

Soooo...just wondering what other people's thoughts are regarding Thailand vs the West ...Corruption vs Bureacracy?

[impulse]

Potato, potato.

[beachproperty]

Potato, potato.

YES...I agree....same thing different name

BUT at least in Thailand you can pay on the spot ...done ..over with...Whereas in the west must go to the government office and Pay ...and its usually an arm and a leg

[CharlieH]

Just more clever at hiding it in the West, or naming it something more official, but it amounts to the same thing and just finding more and easier ways of extracting money.

A common reference would be "stealth tax" to certain activities.

[robblok]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

[beachproperty]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thailand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

[huawei]

Have you been involved in a legal case, been involved in a condominium committee, tried to get your kid into the " right school", been involved in a commercial contract which involves licenses..the list is endless..it's just the way it is..

[robblok]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thaiand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

Fact is because of the corruption its so dangerous here.. and its crazy to compare it to a fine in the west.

You have no idea what your talking about normally its new users who are like this you should have known better.

Corruption is what is keeping this country back.

Because of corruption you don't know if a hotel or bar is safe.. or if standards are checked because you can bribe officials. Satika anyone

Because of corruption your nice home could be unlivable because someone starts a bar next to your house bribes the cops and you are left with night after night of loud music with no recourse because the cops are bribed.

But its ok.. your entitled to your opinion.

As for paying to get things faster fixed.. sure if that money went to the government instead of the individual that holds the position you could compare it. Now you cannot because now its in that officials his interest to keep the process long otherwise people wont pay extra money for fast work.

[impulse]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thailand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

If the west had 75% 2 wheelers, they'd have traffic stats just as bad. Probably worse- a lot worse. I did the math on that one thread a few years back, based on an extrapolation of actual death rate of scooter drivers in the USA. Of course, being a Thai Visa thread, I was informed that couldn't be true because EVERYONE knows Thai drivers stink...

The Thai fatality rate is high because of economics forcing Thais onto scooters and into the beds of pickup trucks with no seatbelts. Not just because their driving skills stink and not just because of backhanders.

[NickJ]

If the system here works for you....paying a quick fine or buying your way out of something, most people are happy.

When you feel the slap of a bigger dog getting his way because of bigger money and a name....Then it's a pain.

[robblok]

If the system here works for you....paying a quick fine or buying your way out of something, most people are happy.

When you feel the slap of a bigger dog getting his way because of bigger money and a name....Then it's a pain.

Indeed that is what most people dont see.

[beachproperty]

Have you been involved in a legal case, been involved in a condominium committee, tried to get your kid into the " right school", been involved in a commercial contract which involves licenses..the list is endless..it's just the way it is..

Never been involved in a legal case and never hope to be.

Never been involved in a condominium committee ...and never will be as, personally, I don't like the communal feel of condominiums

BUT did try to get my wife's son into the "right school" and was told I'd have to pay an extra 100,000 baht ...said "really!" and walked out the door....sent him to the local school and now he is at University of Bangkok and doing well...

[impulse]

If the system here works for you....paying a quick fine or buying your way out of something, most people are happy.

When you feel the slap of a bigger dog getting his way because of bigger money and a name....Then it's a pain.

Goes way beyond that. Imagine the tax rate if they actually had to pay decent salaries to all the officials. Instead, salaries are tiny and the costs are only paid by people who actually use the services (and are in a position where they need to pay bribes)

I'm not condoning it, but there is a symmetry to it... And there will be unintended consequences if they change it.

[beachproperty]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thaiand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

Fact is because of the corruption its so dangerous here.. and its crazy to compare it to a fine in the west.

You have no idea what your talking about normally its new users who are like this you should have known better.

Corruption is what is keeping this country back.

Because of corruption you don't know if a hotel or bar is safe.. or if standards are checked because you can bribe officials. Satika anyone

Because of corruption your nice home could be unlivable because someone starts a bar next to your house bribes the cops and you are left with night after night of loud music with no recourse because the cops are bribed.

But its ok.. your entitled to your opinion.

As for paying to get things faster fixed.. sure if that money went to the government instead of the individual that holds the position you could compare it. Now you cannot because now its in that officials his interest to keep the process long otherwise people wont pay extra money for fast work.

AND you have a different opinion than I do.....AND different expeirences....I respect that ....and your opposing view on corruption vs bureucracy is welcome.

[beachproperty]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

[robblok]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thaiand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

Fact is because of the corruption its so dangerous here.. and its crazy to compare it to a fine in the west.

You have no idea what your talking about normally its new users who are like this you should have known better.

Corruption is what is keeping this country back.

Because of corruption you don't know if a hotel or bar is safe.. or if standards are checked because you can bribe officials. Satika anyone

Because of corruption your nice home could be unlivable because someone starts a bar next to your house bribes the cops and you are left with night after night of loud music with no recourse because the cops are bribed.

But its ok.. your entitled to your opinion.

As for paying to get things faster fixed.. sure if that money went to the government instead of the individual that holds the position you could compare it. Now you cannot because now its in that officials his interest to keep the process long otherwise people wont pay extra money for fast work.

AND you have a different opinion than I do.....AND different expeirences....I respect that ....and your opposing view on corruption vs bureucracy is welcome.

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

[robblok]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Where i come from it would not have cost me any money and it would have done before it was crumbling and old. Guess the US really is a third world country if they don't even keep their power lines maintained.

[beachproperty]

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

Guess you never heard of "eminent domain".....its a western term (and it may well exist in Thailand) but its the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use and (in America, at least, can be taken by the government for use by private enitities).....so nothing is guaranteed in the West...even justice. Sorry to disappoint you....

Never said corruption was good ....just saying here in Thailand its called corruption ....in the West it's called Bureaucracy (or government)

[beachproperty]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Where i come from it would not have cost me any money and it would have done before it was crumbling and old. Guess the US really is a third world country if they don't even keep their power lines maintained.

I'm guessing your not in the construction business ....because if you were, you would know, to call any utility company to hooked up your property it costs THOUSANDS of dollars (and each one is an extra fee....electric, water, sewer!....)

[robblok]

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

Guess you never heard of "eminent domain".....its a western term (and it may well exist in Thailand) but its the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use and (in America, at least, can be taken by the government for use by private enitities).....so nothing is guaranteed in the West...even justice. Sorry to disappoint you....

Never said corruption was good ....just saying here in Thailand its called corruption ....in the West it's can Bureaucracy (or government)

Not nearly the same and calling it the same is an insult to anyone with a brain.

To compare the rights and certainties you have int he west with those in Thailand is stupid as corruption removes those.

Then you come up with a far fetched scenario (that i admit does happen once in a blue moon) can't even compare to what i posted.

[robblok]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Where i come from it would not have cost me any money and it would have done before it was crumbling and old. Guess the US really is a third world country if they don't even keep their power lines maintained.

I'm guessing your not in the construction business ....because if you were, you would know to called any utility company to hooked up your property it costs THOUSANDS of dollars

Where I come from those power-lines would be maintained by either the state or an electric company who has the obligation to maintain them. I would not have had to pay a thing.

Now your twisting your own story and start about hooking up/connecting not maintaining it.

Seems you have to turn and twist to win the argument.

[beachproperty]

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

Guess you never heard of "eminent domain".....its a western term (and it may well exist in Thailand) but its the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use and (in America, at least, can be taken by the government for use by private enitities).....so nothing is guaranteed in the West...even justice. Sorry to disappoint you....

Never said corruption was good ....just saying here in Thailand its called corruption ....in the West it's can Bureaucracy (or government)

Not nearly the same and calling it the same is an insult to anyone with a brain.

To compare the rights and certainties you have int he west with those in Thailand is stupid as corruption removes those.

Then you come up with a far fetched scenario (that i admit does happen once in a blue moon) can't even compare to what i posted.

Wasn't my intent to hit a sore point for you,,,,which I obviously did.....but glad to see you admit the West is not perfect

[beachproperty]

Just another point......Although the West doesn't officially call it corruption ....it does exist.

One example of one government entity stealing from another.....The Golden gate bridge was built and was to be funded and repaired (on a continual basis) by the tolls it collects...It was set up that way when built...... The city of San Francisco ran into problems monetarily awhile back so it decided to take the tolls and put it in the general fund and raise tolls to make more money.

Maybe NOT outright corruption ....but I consider it stealing from the people who are now forced to pay higher tolls than that which it would take to maintain the bridge.

[benalibina]

Mingling between the shades of grey......in Thailands case, it has turned out to become black.

Like Robblok wrote, you fail totally to see the negative larger picture. You only interested in Self. Sad state of affairs.

[robblok]

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

Guess you never heard of "eminent domain".....its a western term (and it may well exist in Thailand) but its the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use and (in America, at least, can be taken by the government for use by private enitities).....so nothing is guaranteed in the West...even justice. Sorry to disappoint you....

Never said corruption was good ....just saying here in Thailand its called corruption ....in the West it's can Bureaucracy (or government)

Not nearly the same and calling it the same is an insult to anyone with a brain.

To compare the rights and certainties you have int he west with those in Thailand is stupid as corruption removes those.

Then you come up with a far fetched scenario (that i admit does happen once in a blue moon) can't even compare to what i posted.

Wasn't my intent to hit a sore point for you,,,,which I obviously did.....but glad to see you admit the West is not perfect

No point scored by you at all.. just twisting facts and coming up with far fetched scenarios to try to get your points.

I never said the west was perfect, i said corruption was bad and in the west there is far less of it so you got far more recourse and protection of the law then you have here.

I like it here, but I am smart enough to see the dangers of corruption.

[beachproperty]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Where i come from it would not have cost me any money and it would have done before it was crumbling and old. Guess the US really is a third world country if they don't even keep their power lines maintained.

I'm guessing your not in the construction business ....because if you were, you would know to called any utility company to hooked up your property it costs THOUSANDS of dollars

Where I come from those power-lines would be maintained by either the state or an electric company who has the obligation to maintain them. I would not have had to pay a thing.

Now your twisting your own story and start about hooking up/connecting not maintaining it.

Seems you have to turn and twist to win the argument.

NO "twist and turns"....you just didn't read my post correctly.....there were two poles (one new and one old) already there ...just asked them to remove the old one.

Guess you not from Calif. where PG&E (gas and electric co) was fined hundreds of millions of dollars for fraud (corruption?) when a gas line exploded killing many people....for submitting false maintainence reports.(payoffs somewhere?)

[beachproperty]

No point scored by you at all.. just twisting facts and coming up with far fetched scenarios to try to get your points.

I never said the west was perfect, i said corruption was bad and in the west there is far less of it so you got far more recourse and protection of the law then you have here.

I like it here, but I am smart enough to see the dangers of corruption.

Not trying to score points....gave up keeping track of "winners" and "losers" .when I was young.....look at life differently now....I calling it "living"

AND "living" in Thailand or the west it just takes learning the "system" and playing the game of that "system"....call me selfish, naive....doesn't matter ...I adjust to the situation where ever and whatever it is....

[robblok]

Where i come from it would not have cost me any money and it would have done before it was crumbling and old. Guess the US really is a third world country if they don't even keep their power lines maintained.

I'm guessing your not in the construction business ....because if you were, you would know to called any utility company to hooked up your property it costs THOUSANDS of dollars

Where I come from those power-lines would be maintained by either the state or an electric company who has the obligation to maintain them. I would not have had to pay a thing.

Now your twisting your own story and start about hooking up/connecting not maintaining it.

Seems you have to turn and twist to win the argument.

NO "twist and turns"....you just didn't read my post correctly.....there were two poles (one new and one old) already there ...just asked them to remove the old one.

Guess you not from Calif. where PG&E (gas and electric co) was fined hundreds of millions of dollars for fraud (corruption?) when a gas line exploded killing many people....for submitting false maintainence reports.(payoffs somewhere?)

That is twisting and turning as where i come from it would have been the obligation of the electric company to maintain it and remove the old pole. I would not even have to pay. So in this case if you were in the west you would not have to pay and now you had too.

So you were at a disadvantage paying for something that should be free. I like your fantasy world.

As for your US story.. there is corruption in the west just far less... and when discovered it is punished harshly just like your facts show. Unlike here where it is not and that allows it to grow and grow.

[huawei]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Yes but you have just highlighted why it's so wrong and that bureaucracy has its merits...it's for those who have the dollars who it best serves.

I don't have a great opinion of Thailand because of the rich v poor divide and the lack of social mobility..corruption just enhances it..

[beachproperty]

That is twisting and turning as where i come from it would have been the obligation of the electric company to maintain it and remove the old pole. I would not even have to pay. So in this case if you were in the west you would not have to pay and now you had too.

So you were at a disadvantage paying for something that should be free. I like your fantasy world.

As for your US story.. there is corruption in the west just far less... and when discovered it is punished harshly just like your facts show. Unlike here where it is not and that allows it to grow and grow.

robblok you wrote "As for your US story.. there is corruption in the west just far less"

And I thought I was the naive one.....Just look at the headlines regarding corporate greed....and that only shows a small portion of corruption that goes on...

Where do you think "Senators" go after their term ...they become corporate consultants because they were on the payroll before and this is their pay back.