Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[silverado]

RTP apologists and Nomsod shielders have been telling us (those of us seeking truth and justice) for nearly a year ...."just wait until the trial starts. Then all will be made clear. The Police are professionals and they know a whole lot more about this crime then any of us do."

Some of them even projected their wrong-headed fantasy to include the families: "How can you second guess the victims' families?! They were briefed by British experts. They know a lot more about the case than we do....."

Well, Nomsod lovers, you're flat out 100% wrong. The trial has been proving what we said all along: The RTP doesn't have a clue, literally. Actually, I thought the RTP would pull a better ruse than they have shown thus far. Are they intentionally bumbling even more than they would ordinarily bumble? The mind reels.

Actually, what the trial is proving is that the doomsayers that claimed they would not receive a fair trial were completely wrong. Certainly what the trial is not doing is proving any of your fantasies regarding people of whom you don't even know their names right.

Incidentally, talking about trials proving things.

"Khaosod newspaper apologized for two headlines suggesting the Warot Toovichian, the son of a village chief on Koh Tao, was responsible for the savage murders of British tourists David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on the island.

The newspaper also accused Warot, 22, of being the son of local “mafia” in two articles published on 24 and 25 Sept.

“We have verified facts and discovered that the aforementioned news items were inaccurate,” a statement published in today’s newspaper read.

It added the newspaper paid compensation of an undisclosed amount to Warot’s family."

Are you claiming this is a fair trial ?

Fair is giving a proper answer to a question, not saying I dont know to question after question.

But then we know your idea of fair in this trial is far different to that of anyone wanting justice.

and by the way , have we heart apologizes from this one : (not forget that khaosod was only reporting what he said)

[berybert]

So when can we expect more factual news in this thread ?

Next hearing for the prosecution is on the 28th, IIRC.

He said factual

[loonodingle]

Good lord! How anyone could have thought the B2 committed this crime and still continue to do so when the trial is more than halfway through is either blinkered beyond words or stubbornly sticking to their own personal agenda.

Or acting under orders to keep trying to derail the thread.

To be honest with you Stealth I don't think this thread makes a blind bit of difference to the outcome of the case. For the people who have taken a side its just their daily sport winding some of us cynics up.

They may well have some allegiances to certain people but it makes no difference to what happens in the future. Mostly is just boredom IMHO.

[loonodingle]

Is using a roti seller really the best the Thai courts could do? Was that done to humiliate the defendants? Was it intentional that they used men with no former experience as interpreters? Does the court deem the fairness of the trial to be such a low priority?

Because, like has been said before, the police never expected the B2 to have any defense team to call them on their practices so all they needed to show was that they used a Burmese translator to the trial. They never expected an international backing team for the defense to scrutinize their every step of the investigation and point out that he didn't speak Thai or even Burmese!! This is fundamentally why the case the prosecution has been left with has looked so shambolic during their time in court.

Now imagine how many thousands of cases have gone ahead in Thailand without an all star defense team over the last few decades where the police have acted with complete impunity and made up and won cases against whoever they wanted to.

And that's the crux of this case.... Unprecedented scrutiny.

This is why the Polee scolded the lawyers after they left the court complaining about being questioned. They have had it heir own way for far to long.

No Burmese suspects I doubt have ever had the same support as these 2.

[gigman]

Just modern witch hunting...

All of it is just joke.

"Court" will do what what must do ...

[catsanddogs]

Did the RTP attempt to fabricate their story and incriminate the Burmese men after spending 100's of hours watching CCTV? Making available to the media what would work for them and leaving out what would tell the truth? I guess they didn't factor in that so many people in so many countries would feel compelled, for whatever reasons, to question what the hell was going on after the arrests and the ludicrous re-enactments. I've been trying to look at the order in which DNA was taken from various people to try and get some sense of things but am out of energy for now. This is as far as I've got.

(week beg 22^nd Sept)DNA samples taken from a group of workers from neighbouring Burma. They were eliminated as suspects.

23^rd Sept Montriwat Toovichien submitted DNA test after being interrogated for three hours on 23^rd Sept. Brother Voraphan Toovichien also submitted DNA test at same time.

28^th Sept police said they had taken DNA samples from a group of Thais who had taken part in a football tournament in the area.

1st Oct Taxi driver , Prasit Sukdam accused the police of giving him a large sum of money in exchange for false testimony to frame footballers. Police said arrests were imminent in next few days.

3^rd Oct Police said DNA matched samples taken from one of the British tourists and that of two Myanmar nationals had confessed to the murders.

30^th Oct Warot Toovichien gets DNA sample taken..

Forgot about this snippet –

Sept 26: A witness claims to have seen the murders and states that the killers are foreigners. Police attempt to determine the credibility of the information.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Chronology-of-events-involving-the-Koh-Tao-rape-mu-30244702.html

[balo]

So when can we expect more factual news in this thread ?

Next hearing for the prosecution is on the 28th, IIRC.

Thank you, I'll be back on Friday.

Yeah you slink off mate and pretend you have no interest in this thread now you are being called on your BS. I knew you wouldn't have an answer to my last reply to you.

It was here in case you are pretending to not have seen it and I asked you some very genuine and important questions pertaining to your posts: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/849310-koh-tao-murder-trial-reconvenes-in-koh-samui/?p=9770912

See, when you can't blame everything on gossip or CSI LA then you have no other leg to stand on.

Ok thank you for letting me know , I will make an exception for you since you seem to be one of the few here who can not accept that someone can have another opinion than you without insulting me for having another opinion , I would never follow you or insult you in any way. I dont even know why you put so much focus and energy on me , a regular poster on TV.

This is what you wrote :

As I said before, you are always quick to defend Nomsod and his family, I always wonder why if you are as impartial as you claim to be, why is that?

Answer:

Nomsod is just one person out of many who could be involved in this crime, he had his time in the spot light for a long time , he has proven his innocense as far as you can go in a country like Thailand , both with CCTV evidence and DNA . What about the rest of the "gang" , you seem to forget Nomsod is only one person , too much focus on one person is never good and there is a good chance he is innocent. Some people choose to believe that , its our opinion. Accept it.

You: Let me ask you somethingl why do you think he is attached to this case? Is it all dreamt up by people gossiping on the internet?

Of course not , we all know the history , and if you choose not to believe a word of what the thai media write , if you do not believe a word of RTP , if you do not believe a word of what experts and DNA labs in Thailand tell you , then fine . I choose to believe that there are some good people in this kingdom. And that not everything you hear and see is one big coverup that goes all the way up to the P.M as some of you seem to think in this case .

Or is it because the original police chief, Panya Mamen, identified him and his uncle Mon as the original murder suspects and said they he had gathered enough CCTV footage which "implicated them in the murders"?

Answer: Show me any evidence that this happened, rumors or facts ?

Then suddenly the police chief was switched, the CCTV footage disappears and now we have a ridiculously pathetic trial against 2 Burmese guys which is not holding up in court and is based on no hard evidence against them.

Answer: The CCTV footage from where? AC bar?

..............................................

As I said many times , we do not know all the details , I am entitled to my opinion as you are . Yes it would be nice with facts but we dont have it do we ?

I love facts , give it to me , instead of BS me and others with other opinions than yours.

I guess I have to continue following every post you make here since you seem offended in some way just because I have my opinion. And I have to defend myself every time , ok thats how you want it it can be busy times for me until Friday.

If you just ignore me that would probably be better for this thread. I guess the moderators are tired of this now.

OK Khun Matt I hope you are satisfied.

[smedly]

Good news that a local radio station reporter from Norfolk is at the trial -

"Then today, when the senior police officer in charge of the DNA gathering was about the leave the dock, they (the defence team) turned round and said 'we want the DNA re-taken by the Thai Ministry of Justice, they're here, they're going to do it right now, and we want you to witness it', to which the judge said was fine."

She added: "The move followed a morning of admissions by the police officers who originally took the DNA from the suspects, including unsigned forms, no photographic evidence and a key officer who said he was bomb disposal and had only taken DNA in training.

full article here -

http://www.heart.co.uk/essex/news/local/dna-re-taken-during-hannah-witheridge-murder-trial/#xWmXtv22L1q5fWdE.97

Thanks for simply posting links to news: I appreciate reading what is happening in the case, not the sort of atrocious juvenile detective work and bickering that was posted in the last lengthy thread.

With reference to the reported re-taking of the suspects' DNA samples, although the defence are right to insist on as much independent corroboration as possible, it is unlikely that any errors made by an officer who has only taken DNA a few times in training could result in the samples being so compromised that they would result in misidentification.

DNA is taken by rubbing a cotton bud on the inside of the subject's cheek, then placing it in a tube, and that's it. Companies that sell online DNA tests rely on members of the general public doing this themselves, with no experience at all, other than the simple instructions given in the kits they are sent, and it is hard to do this incorrectly.

What is more likely to be questionable is: how clear and unambiguous were the DNA fingerprints apparently isolated from the victim that the suspects' DNA fingerprints were compared to. It is this sample that is likely to be deficient, unclear or not of high enough quality to prove an unambiguous match with the suspects' DNAs (which are permanently available in unlimited quantities.)

We also need to be sure that the DNA in the tests actually came from the accused.........as you say, it is easy enough to gather but the subsequent handling requires following meticulous protocols.

Well, the point is the DNA collected (according to the prosecution) produced readable and recognisable profiles , good enough to compare with the profiles read from the DNA isolated from the victim, and conclude that they matched.

In court, subject to a reasonable cross-examination, the prosecution would have to produce the DNA profiles from both the accused and the victim, and show how they matched and what the probability that the match could have happened by chance would be. These would have to have been handled by at least two lab personnel doing the profiling, analysing and cross checking the match, then signed off by the lab director, who would be a final check that the profiles had been interpreted correctly and the match probability was accurate.

To fake up these results from scratch and produce original data convincing enough to get past any reasonably qualified defense DNA forensic expert would require a huge amount of very technically difficult interference, and the collusion of a significant number of lab personnel. No police official, however high up would have any idea even what to tell people to do to fake these results, so they would have to ask the lab head to do it for them.

At the other extreme the match could be entirely on paper: that is a DNA profile from the victim was obtained, and the report of the DNA profiles from the accused was just typed up to show a match, without any data from the accused DNA being used at all. To be honest it is impossible to imagine this succeeding, or anyone believing it could succeed, because even the slightest questioning would expose it. It is almost impossible to get a complete convincing DNA profile for two people using a profile obtained from a rape kit sample that is a mix of two DNAs, simply because mixed DNAs almost always have many ambiguous readings at different marker sites. Also the lab would not be able to produce any original traces of data that they could say were the actual tests of the two DNA samples from the accused.

To be honest I don't have any idea about what is happening with the DNA evidence. To refuse a retest of the DNA rape kit sample suggests the defence are on the back foot: unless you think a retest will harm your case, accumulating every single bit of data that casts doubt on the prosecution's case is always the best strategy when you have to establish reasonable doubt. Four bits of exonerating evidence are better than five, and six are better than seven. You never have enough.

I wonder whether the defence belatedly realised that maybe Khun Pornthip would be a subversive or harmful defense witness rather than a helpful one: it seems very odd to ask for months for the victim DNA to be retested, then back out. Even this isn't very convincing - as someone has already pointed out, the samples would have to be handed over to Pornthip's lab, retested by junior lab personnel, written up as a report, and signed off. It could not then be altered either by the police or by Pornthip without many people knowing.

I thought the DNA evidence would collapse because the DNA match would be so ambiguous ( because the results from the victim DNA sample were unacceptably unclear, and so few of the accused markers matched that identification criteria would not be met). Perhaps this will still be the case.

The other alternative of course is that the the DNA does match, genuinely, and the accused are guilty.

very informative post and something that many people have been discussing here for weeks, what you say as being unlikely regarding the falsification of the DNA evidence (on paper) is generally true......in the west, but in this case no records were kept or have been shown - the supposed tests were done in the police lab and the samples were not made available to defense - exactly why the whole process has been called into question - it was also reported that the DNA samples were stored in the AC bar fridge, probably nonsense

In the west it is uncommon for DNA to be retested by defense council for two very obvious reasons

1. The tests are done by an independent labs and follow very strict protocols

2. Confidence in the process is high and retesting would have a negative impact

I am also not completely sure they (defense) have refused a retest of the DNA or that Pontip will no longer be testifying, maybe I missed that somewhere as this is a big thread or maybe you just assumed that to be the case, the defense statement was somewhat unclear about DNA retesting

[smedly]

So when can we expect more factual news in this thread ?

Next hearing for the prosecution is on the 28th, IIRC.

Thank you, I'll be back on Friday.

Yeah you slink off mate and pretend you have no interest in this thread now you are being called on your BS. I knew you wouldn't have an answer to my last reply to you.

It was here in case you are pretending to not have seen it and I asked you some very genuine and important questions pertaining to your posts: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/849310-koh-tao-murder-trial-reconvenes-in-koh-samui/?p=9770912

See, when you can't blame everything on gossip or CSI LA then you have no other leg to stand on.

I don't think Balo has any malice intended here, I think he has a connection to the Thai Police and somehow thinks he should be defending them - just a wild guess but if I am right (and don't take offence) you have absolutely no clue about professional policing and will never learn about it in soi 9 mate

[Fat Haggis]

What I find quite interesting and I'm sure they're NOT connected in any way, shape or form is that the Thai authorities yesterday and a few weeks back have taken action against two prominent members of the defence team, through censure, and dafamation cases.

Pornthip is censured by the Medical council over comments she made, and yesterday Andy Hall indited... coincidence? perhaps, but the cynic in me would have me believe otherwise.

[Fat Haggis]

We also need to be sure that the DNA in the tests actually came from the accused.........as you say, it is easy enough to gather but the subsequent handling requires following meticulous protocols.

Well, the point is the DNA collected (according to the prosecution) produced readable and recognisable profiles , good enough to compare with the profiles read from the DNA isolated from the victim, and conclude that they matched.

In court, subject to a reasonable cross-examination, the prosecution would have to produce the DNA profiles from both the accused and the victim, and show how they matched and what the probability that the match could have happened by chance would be. These would have to have been handled by at least two lab personnel doing the profiling, analysing and cross checking the match, then signed off by the lab director, who would be a final check that the profiles had been interpreted correctly and the match probability was accurate.

To fake up these results from scratch and produce original data convincing enough to get past any reasonably qualified defense DNA forensic expert would require a huge amount of very technically difficult interference, and the collusion of a significant number of lab personnel. No police official, however high up would have any idea even what to tell people to do to fake these results, so they would have to ask the lab head to do it for them.

At the other extreme the match could be entirely on paper: that is a DNA profile from the victim was obtained, and the report of the DNA profiles from the accused was just typed up to show a match, without any data from the accused DNA being used at all. To be honest it is impossible to imagine this succeeding, or anyone believing it could succeed, because even the slightest questioning would expose it. It is almost impossible to get a complete convincing DNA profile for two people using a profile obtained from a rape kit sample that is a mix of two DNAs, simply because mixed DNAs almost always have many ambiguous readings at different marker sites. Also the lab would not be able to produce any original traces of data that they could say were the actual tests of the two DNA samples from the accused.

To be honest I don't have any idea about what is happening with the DNA evidence. To refuse a retest of the DNA rape kit sample suggests the defence are on the back foot: unless you think a retest will harm your case, accumulating every single bit of data that casts doubt on the prosecution's case is always the best strategy when you have to establish reasonable doubt. Four bits of exonerating evidence are better than five, and six are better than seven. You never have enough.

I wonder whether the defence belatedly realised that maybe Khun Pornthip would be a subversive or harmful defense witness rather than a helpful one: it seems very odd to ask for months for the victim DNA to be retested, then back out. Even this isn't very convincing - as someone has already pointed out, the samples would have to be handed over to Pornthip's lab, retested by junior lab personnel, written up as a report, and signed off. It could not then be altered either by the police or by Pornthip without many people knowing.

I thought the DNA evidence would collapse because the DNA match would be so ambiguous ( because the results from the victim DNA sample were unacceptably unclear, and so few of the accused markers matched that identification criteria would not be met). Perhaps this will still be the case.

The other alternative of course is that the the DNA does match, genuinely, and the accused are guilty.

very informative post and something that many people have been discussing here for weeks, what you say as being unlikely regarding the falsification of the DNA evidence (on paper) is generally true......in the west, but in this case no records were kept or have been shown - the supposed tests were done in the police lab and the samples were not made available to defense - exactly why the whole process has been called into question - it was also reported that the DNA samples were stored in the AC bar fridge, probably nonsense

In the west it is uncommon for DNA to be retested by defense council for two very obvious reasons

1. The tests are done by an independent labs and follow very strict protocols

2. Confidence in the process is high and retesting would have a negative impact

I am also not completely sure they (defense) have refused a retest of the DNA or that Pontip will no longer be testifying, maybe I missed that somewhere as this is a big thread or maybe you just assumed that to be the case, the defense statement was somewhat unclear about DNA retesting

I believe the DNA that was not required to be retested was from the Hoe, Loonodingle has gone into depth on this, and by all accounts the defence team have the results, I would be very surprised if it matched the original samples, that they've not then instructed their clients to enter a plea, but they have not, then there's the "alleged" bombshell information that was obtained from the UK that still has to be revealed, so perhaps the defence team are still confident that the B2 will be found not guilty.

The prosecution has done nothing to date to support a guilty verdict, if anything their own witnesses have been lacking, despite the defence team not been given all the evidence prior to the case.

I cannot fathom how this case was sent back several times so that the prosecution could get their act together and make it rock solid, if this is their version of rock solid, it beggars belief as to what they submitted to the Court judges in the first place!!!

[seahorse]

If she had been shot that would have stood up like a sore thumb during a post-mortem, that the UK authorities also carried out. There is no way that after that the UK police would had briefed the families and if they'd found evidence of a gunshot then the families would come out saying the two men on trial had a hard case to answer for.

This gunshot theory is ridiculous, it comes from online speculation from people that watch too much CSI themed TV shows.

One more, but here one do not fear ridiculous ...

It's what happens with people that become trapped in Groupthink, they just don't realize how they look from the outside.

Tell me if anything of this sounds familiar:

"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences."

Edit to add the second paragraph:

"Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup"."

This sounds very much like the residents of Koh Tao to me.

Let's pretend these two Burmese guys did it. Our livelihoods and lives depend upon it.

[IslandLover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

COurt recommences...........

LOL!

[Tony121]

If she had been shot that would have stood up like a sore thumb during a post-mortem, that the UK authorities also carried out. There is no way that after that the UK police would had briefed the families and if they'd found evidence of a gunshot then the families would come out saying the two men on trial had a hard case to answer for.

This gunshot theory is ridiculous, it comes from online speculation from people that watch too much CSI themed TV shows.

One more, but here one do not fear ridiculous ...

It's what happens with people that become trapped in Groupthink, they just don't realize how they look from the outside.

Tell me if anything of this sounds familiar:

"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences."

Edit to add the second paragraph:

"Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup"."

This sounds very much like the residents of Koh Tao to me.

Let's pretend these two Burmese guys did it. Our livelihoods and lives depend upon it.

If you think a whole community would look the other way to save there livelihoods after such a horrific crime, A crime that made nearly half a million people join up to CSI LA.

A local small community made up of Men and women Foreign Burmese and Thai then I truly feel sorry for you.

[cumgranosalum]

the amateur Sherlocks continue...... Don't you understand that it doesn't matter who did it any more, the process has been compromised... No matter who you think it was they can't now have a fair trial.

[Darkknight666]

If she had been shot that would have stood up like a sore thumb during a post-mortem, that the UK authorities also carried out. There is no way that after that the UK police would had briefed the families and if they'd found evidence of a gunshot then the families would come out saying the two men on trial had a hard case to answer for.

This gunshot theory is ridiculous, it comes from online speculation from people that watch too much CSI themed TV shows.

One more, but here one do not fear ridiculous ...

It's what happens with people that become trapped in Groupthink, they just don't realize how they look from the outside.

Tell me if anything of this sounds familiar:

"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences."

Edit to add the second paragraph:

"Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup"."

This sounds very much like the residents of Koh Tao to me.

Let's pretend these two Burmese guys did it. Our livelihoods and lives depend upon it.

If you think a whole community would look the other way to save there livelihoods after such a horrific crime, A crime that made nearly half a million people join up to CSI LA.

A local small community made up of Men and women Foreign Burmese and Thai then I truly feel sorry for you.

Well, most of them likely do want the raping killer off the island... Trouble is they can't speak up or the island thugs will do anything to shut them up, anything.

So who protects witnesses in a major crime like this? The poleee? :rofl:

The whole place Is under the control of a dark element and you know that.

[seahorse]

the first police witness admitted, while recalling how he had come across the bodies of the victims, that he had tampered with the scene before the medical or forensic teams arrived.

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/15433-mistakes-continue-to-mount-at-koh-tao-murder-trial.html

This alone should be enough to have the DNA evidence thrown out.

[AleG]

very informative post and something that many people have been discussing here for weeks, what you say as being unlikely regarding the falsification of the DNA evidence (on paper) is generally true......in the west, but in this case no records were kept or have been shown - the supposed tests were done in the police lab and the samples were not made available to defense - exactly why the whole process has been called into question - it was also reported that the DNA samples were stored in the AC bar fridge, probably nonsense

In the west it is uncommon for DNA to be retested by defense council for two very obvious reasons

1. The tests are done by an independent labs and follow very strict protocols

2. Confidence in the process is high and retesting would have a negative impact

I am also not completely sure they (defense) have refused a retest of the DNA or that Pontip will no longer be testifying, maybe I missed that somewhere as this is a big thread or maybe you just assumed that to be the case, the defense statement was somewhat unclear about DNA retesting

I believe the DNA that was not required to be retested was from the Hoe, Loonodingle has gone into depth on this, and by all accounts the defence team have the results, I would be very surprised if it matched the original samples, that they've not then instructed their clients to enter a plea, but they have not, then there's the "alleged" bombshell information that was obtained from the UK that still has to be revealed, so perhaps the defence team are still confident that the B2 will be found not guilty.

The prosecution has done nothing to date to support a guilty verdict, if anything their own witnesses have been lacking, despite the defence team not been given all the evidence prior to the case.

I cannot fathom how this case was sent back several times so that the prosecution could get their act together and make it rock solid, if this is their version of rock solid, it beggars belief as to what they submitted to the Court judges in the first place!!!

If by going into depth you mean spinning things a certain way...

Meanwhile in the real world:

"Mr Chomphuchat said that the alleged murder weapon, a garden hoe, which had never been properly forensically examined by police, and some clothing found at the scene, had already been retested by government forensic officers but no results had yet been forwarded to the defence lawyers."

This retesting was done by the CIFS, the one headed by Dr. Pornthip Rojasunand, the expert the defense team had already summoned as a witness to bolster their case.

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,”

And:

The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

The samples taken from the men on trial in that publicity stunt at the court have also been sent to the CIFS for testing, so the argument that the defense doesn't thrust the same independent laboratory to retest the DNA retrieved from the body of one of the victims is specious.

[biplanebluey]

Has it been mentioned how the Roti sellers are giving evidence in court? Are they speaking Thai or using translators?

Their evidence was given in Thai. However, the Thai of one of them was so bad that the answers he gave could not be understood.

And this was reported to you by that guy in the bar last night

[AleG]

Ok thank you for letting me know , I will make an exception for you since you seem to be one of the few here who can not accept that someone can have another opinion than you without insulting me for having another opinion , I would never follow you or insult you in any way. I dont even know why you put so much focus and energy on me , a regular poster on TV.

This is what you wrote :

As I said before, you are always quick to defend Nomsod and his family, I always wonder why if you are as impartial as you claim to be, why is that?

Answer:

Nomsod is just one person out of many who could be involved in this crime, he had his time in the spot light for a long time , he has proven his innocense as far as you can go in a country like Thailand , both with CCTV evidence and DNA . What about the rest of the "gang" , you seem to forget Nomsod is only one person , too much focus on one person is never good and there is a good chance he is innocent. Some people choose to believe that , its our opinion. Accept it.

You: Let me ask you somethingl why do you think he is attached to this case? Is it all dreamt up by people gossiping on the internet?

Of course not , we all know the history , and if you choose not to believe a word of what the thai media write , if you do not believe a word of RTP , if you do not believe a word of what experts and DNA labs in Thailand tell you , then fine . I choose to believe that there are some good people in this kingdom. And that not everything you hear and see is one big coverup that goes all the way up to the P.M as some of you seem to think in this case .

Or is it because the original police chief, Panya Mamen, identified him and his uncle Mon as the original murder suspects and said they he had gathered enough CCTV footage which "implicated them in the murders"?

Answer: Show me any evidence that this happened, rumors or facts ?

Then suddenly the police chief was switched, the CCTV footage disappears and now we have a ridiculously pathetic trial against 2 Burmese guys which is not holding up in court and is based on no hard evidence against them.

Answer: The CCTV footage from where? AC bar?

..............................................

As I said many times , we do not know all the details , I am entitled to my opinion as you are . Yes it would be nice with facts but we dont have it do we ?

I love facts , give it to me , instead of BS me and others with other opinions than yours.

I guess I have to continue following every post you make here since you seem offended in some way just because I have my opinion. And I have to defend myself every time , ok thats how you want it it can be busy times for me until Friday.

If you just ignore me that would probably be better for this thread. I guess the moderators are tired of this now.

OK Khun Matt I hope you are satisfied.

Seeing people getting obsessed with other people because they don't share their obsession with some other people is rather amusing.

It's not just that they are tilting at windmills, they are tilting at the shadows of windmills.

[Rykbanlor]

very informative post and something that many people have been discussing here for weeks, what you say as being unlikely regarding the falsification of the DNA evidence (on paper) is generally true......in the west, but in this case no records were kept or have been shown - the supposed tests were done in the police lab and the samples were not made available to defense - exactly why the whole process has been called into question - it was also reported that the DNA samples were stored in the AC bar fridge, probably nonsense

In the west it is uncommon for DNA to be retested by defense council for two very obvious reasons

1. The tests are done by an independent labs and follow very strict protocols

2. Confidence in the process is high and retesting would have a negative impact

I am also not completely sure they (defense) have refused a retest of the DNA or that Pontip will no longer be testifying, maybe I missed that somewhere as this is a big thread or maybe you just assumed that to be the case, the defense statement was somewhat unclear about DNA retesting

I believe the DNA that was not required to be retested was from the Hoe, Loonodingle has gone into depth on this, and by all accounts the defence team have the results, I would be very surprised if it matched the original samples, that they've not then instructed their clients to enter a plea, but they have not, then there's the "alleged" bombshell information that was obtained from the UK that still has to be revealed, so perhaps the defence team are still confident that the B2 will be found not guilty.

The prosecution has done nothing to date to support a guilty verdict, if anything their own witnesses have been lacking, despite the defence team not been given all the evidence prior to the case.

I cannot fathom how this case was sent back several times so that the prosecution could get their act together and make it rock solid, if this is their version of rock solid, it beggars belief as to what they submitted to the Court judges in the first place!!!

If by going into depth you mean spinning things a certain way...

Meanwhile in the real world:

"Mr Chomphuchat said that the alleged murder weapon, a garden hoe, which had never been properly forensically examined by police, and some clothing found at the scene, had already been retested by government forensic officers but no results had yet been forwarded to the defence lawyers."

This retesting was done by the CIFS, the one headed by Dr. Pornthip Rojasunand, the expert the defense team had already summoned as a witness to bolster their case.

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,”

And:

The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

The samples taken from the men on trial in that publicity stunt at the court have also been sent to the CIFS for testing, so the argument that the defense doesn't thrust the same independent laboratory to retest the DNA retrieved from the body of one of the victims is specious.

Nomsod giving DNA publicly with Dad and top cop in front of cameras is a necessity to clear his name, taking DNA swabs from the accused in court is a "publicity stunt"

Subtle little pops to belittle the defence.

[Rykbanlor]

If you think a whole community would look the other way to save there livelihoods after such a horrific crime, A crime that made nearly half a million people join up to CSI LA.

A local small community made up of Men and women Foreign Burmese and Thai then I truly feel sorry for you.

Well, most of them likely do want the raping killer off the island... Trouble is they can't speak up or the island thugs will do anything to shut them up, anything.

So who protects witnesses in a major crime like this? The poleee? :rofl:

The whole place Is under the control of a dark element and you know that.

Well if that was the case on such a small island I would pack my bags and leave even more so If I was burmese. but the only Burmese person that they caught fleeing the island was one of the B2.

Yes Tony, I'm sure in their stricken poverty, the underpaid, overabused Burmese can just pack up and move on whenever things are uncomfortable for them, just like all the business owners, who would surely think nothing of abandoning their business and livelihoods at the drop of a hat.

[stephenterry]

Here's one for Loon. Maybe this is the DNA bomb supplied by the UK coroner's office to the defence team?

Quote from Search discover magazine:

A new DNA test can locate where your relatives lived over 1,000 years ago, and in some cases, even pinpoint the specific village or island your ancestors came from.

I wonder if British forensic scientists have identified that the DNA from Hannah does not match a Burmese native? Maybe the police quote that 'no Thai could have committed these crimes' will come back to haunt them.

[Tony121]

The only this news reports I have seen with Mon mentioned at trial is in this article " Koh Tao policeman challenged over killings" you would have to do a search

So I read that article, thank you, Stealth.

It says Mon gave testimony along with Dr.Chaisit...... And nothing more. So whatever he said was not reported on at all.... I find that odd. Did the defense get a chance to ask questions? Oh, I forgot this isn't a real trial.

This article is so old they're saying evidence points to David and Hannah being intimate at the time of the attack.

I'll tell you exactly why I don't believe the B2 are the killers.. This was a pre-meditated attack, poorly executed because the killers never thought they'd ever be questioned or even found. Like I've said before, Hannah was not just killed she was killed so brutally she couldn't have an open casket.... Why so much anger at her face? I believe the pre-meditation is derived from what occurred in AC Bar. Anyone wonder why David didn't get the same as Hannah? The killers just wanted david out of the way and then they carried out their sick crime. Whoever was in AC bar knows what happened at the very least.

more great detective work by the tinfoilers, swaps the heads over and they could both be the person in the footage.

And even the great Andy has said the footage is to unclear

watch at 1:30

Of what relevance is your post?

[Rykbanlor]

Stop filling up the thread with lengthy quoted posts that have no new text in them.

[Linky]

very informative post and something that many people have been discussing here for weeks, what you say as being unlikely regarding the falsification of the DNA evidence (on paper) is generally true......in the west, but in this case no records were kept or have been shown - the supposed tests were done in the police lab and the samples were not made available to defense - exactly why the whole process has been called into question - it was also reported that the DNA samples were stored in the AC bar fridge, probably nonsense

In the west it is uncommon for DNA to be retested by defense council for two very obvious reasons

1. The tests are done by an independent labs and follow very strict protocols

2. Confidence in the process is high and retesting would have a negative impact

I am also not completely sure they (defense) have refused a retest of the DNA or that Pontip will no longer be testifying, maybe I missed that somewhere as this is a big thread or maybe you just assumed that to be the case, the defense statement was somewhat unclear about DNA retesting

I believe the DNA that was not required to be retested was from the Hoe, Loonodingle has gone into depth on this, and by all accounts the defence team have the results, I would be very surprised if it matched the original samples, that they've not then instructed their clients to enter a plea, but they have not, then there's the "alleged" bombshell information that was obtained from the UK that still has to be revealed, so perhaps the defence team are still confident that the B2 will be found not guilty.

The prosecution has done nothing to date to support a guilty verdict, if anything their own witnesses have been lacking, despite the defence team not been given all the evidence prior to the case.

I cannot fathom how this case was sent back several times so that the prosecution could get their act together and make it rock solid, if this is their version of rock solid, it beggars belief as to what they submitted to the Court judges in the first place!!!

If by going into depth you mean spinning things a certain way...

Meanwhile in the real world:

"Mr Chomphuchat said that the alleged murder weapon, a garden hoe, which had never been properly forensically examined by police, and some clothing found at the scene, had already been retested by government forensic officers but no results had yet been forwarded to the defence lawyers."

This retesting was done by the CIFS, the one headed by Dr. Pornthip Rojasunand, the expert the defense team had already summoned as a witness to bolster their case.

The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,

And:

The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they dont need it any more.

The samples taken from the men on trial in that publicity stunt at the court have also been sent to the CIFS for testing, so the argument that the defense doesn't thrust the same independent laboratory to retest the DNA retrieved from the body of one of the victims is specious.

No the defence could not have ALL dna retested because the police witness said it was lost or all used up. Or did an esteemed RTP officer lie under oath.

The defence reversed its request for certain dna testing because the results would go to the RTP. That should not happen.

The defence got the dna retest they wanted.

The prosecution has 2 days remaining to try and provide some substantive evidence, something, anything. Surely they have more than what they have presented that warranted the 2 boys being held in custody. But I doubt it.

[Tony121]

If you think a whole community would look the other way to save there livelihoods after such a horrific crime, A crime that made nearly half a million people join up to CSI LA.

A local small community made up of Men and women Foreign Burmese and Thai then I truly feel sorry for you.

Well, most of them likely do want the raping killer off the island... Trouble is they can't speak up or the island thugs will do anything to shut them up, anything.

So who protects witnesses in a major crime like this? The poleee? :rofl:

The whole place Is under the control of a dark element and you know that.

Well if that was the case on such a small island I would pack my bags and leave even more so If I was burmese. but the only Burmese person that they caught fleeing the island was one of the B2.

Yes Tony, I'm sure in their stricken poverty, the underpaid, overabused Burmese can just pack up and move on whenever things are uncomfortable for them, just like all the business owners, who would surely think nothing of abandoning their business and livelihoods at the drop of a hat.

Stricken poverty ? how comes then Zaw Lin Managed to send home USD 2000 in 2 years ?

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

And have enough left to buy a guitar, beers and smokes ? Maybe its all the phones they keep finding on the beach ?

[Tony121]

Here's one for Loon. Maybe this is the DNA bomb supplied by the UK coroner's office to the defence team?

Quote from Search discover magazine:

A new DNA test can locate where your relatives lived over 1,000 years ago, and in some cases, even pinpoint the specific village or island your ancestors came from.

I wonder if British forensic scientists have identified that the DNA from Hannah does not match a Burmese native? Maybe the police quote that 'no Thai could have committed these crimes' will come back to haunt them.

The only evidence concerning the victims body would come from a coroner, They would not test for DNA there job is to find cause of death not the Killer.

The Uk police and government have refused to give any information regarding the case to the defense.

[thailandchilli]

Yes Tony, I'm sure in their stricken poverty, the underpaid, overabused Burmese can just pack up and move on whenever things are uncomfortable for them, just like all the business owners, who would surely think nothing of abandoning their business and livelihoods at the drop of a hat.

Stricken poverty ? how comes then Zaw Lin Managed to send home USD 2000 in 2 years ?

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

And have enough left to buy a guitar, beers and smokes ? Maybe its all the phones they keep finding on the beach ?

Another shill who has lost touch with reality. $2,000 sent home in 2 years is a pittance works out about 1,479 THB per month, was it his guitar? Was it his motorbike? Are you saying their not entitled to buy cigarettes and have a few drinks on their night off work once a month?

The RTP are rather good at finding phones on the beach also, only problem being they fail to answer who they belong to.

[Linky]

Wow $2000 in two years is the best he could do, yes i would call that abject poverty.

Beers and smokes may have been split between the 3 but even if he paid its hardly a big amount. Guitar can be had for very cheap.

Jeez if you think he is doing alright for himself may I suggest you get another job or better still, get re educated.